did baniya come from tamil vanikan

8/14/2019 Did Baniya Come From Tamil Vanikan

1/4

Did "Baniya" come from tamil "" ?

> > & > Indian / South Asian Languages > >

| < | > | 30 21-30

20 (2 )

20 (2 )

Dibya ()

@ Rohith:

"baniyA" seems to be a Prakritic development of "vaNik(+ probably some extension like-aka)", but I understand that is not the main bone of contention. The bone of contentionis the etymology of "vaNij". I really have no idea myself about the etymology. I can onlytry to evaluate others' claims.

So far there have been two main claims/suggestions:

1. Prakrit to Sanskrit reborrowing: Vedic vasna > Prakrit *vaN- > reborrowed intoSanskrit. This has one major problem: I don't see how it explains the ending -ij (neithercan I supply an explanation off the top of my head).

2. Tamil: Somehow from the root "pul". Well, nothing seems to work here, e.g. the p>vconversion at the word beginning, vowel conversion from u>a. For the related wordsquoted like "vaNigan", "vaNicciyam", etc. (sorry, if I misquoted any), they:- a) Don't analyse the word "vaNij" any farther, nor give any hint to its history.- b) I can easily see how neatly they are inter-related within Sanskrit grammar (eg."vaNik" is the nom. sing. of "vaNij", as, among stops only unaspirated voiceless velar/retroflex/dental/labial (but NOT palatal) stops are allowed at the end of utterance bySanskrit phonology; "vANijya = vaNij + ya" where "ya" is a very common suffix in theabstract sense of "the property/quality of", etc.) but I am not sure how neat their inter-relation within Tamil grammar is (k-c alternation, for example, as in "vaNikan" and"vaNicciyam": is it tenable within Tamil grammar under similar circumstances?)

~~~~

Personally, my impression is neither explanation is good enough, as of now.

20 (2 )

Dibya ()

On a second thought, my opinion 2(b) above is really irrelevant to the topic at hand, as Imentioned in 2(a) that those words shed no light on the etymology of vaNij/vaNikan.

-----

@ Megarajan:
http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Homehttp://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Communitieshttp://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommunityList?cid=26http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommunityList?cid=26http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommunityList?cid=26http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Community?cmm=741647http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommTopics?cmm=741647http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=741647&tid=5392195706278224065&na=1&nst=1http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=741647&tid=5392195706278224065&na=4&nst=11&nid=741647-5392195706278224065-5394420426378155030http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=741647&tid=5392195706278224065&na=4&nst=11&nid=741647-5392195706278224065-5394420426378155030http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=10627702961035681362http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=10627702961035681362http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=741647&tid=5392195706278224065&na=4&nst=11&nid=741647-5392195706278224065-5394420426378155030http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommMsgs?cmm=741647&tid=5392195706278224065&na=1&nst=1http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommTopics?cmm=741647http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Community?cmm=741647http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#CommunityList?cid=26http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Communitieshttp://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Home


2/4

It has been an overdue "wish" for myself to really learn Old Tamil (or however you callit), and at least one modern spoken offspring of it (say, some Tamil dialect orMalayalam). But bogged down by other priorities, I could never progress beyond asmattering of beginner's Malayalam, and some study of Krishnamurthi's "DravidianLanguages". Another overdue wish (which doesn't draw much attention here, but that Ipersonally consider as much or even more important to me - owing to my Eastern Indian

heritage) is knowledge of an Austro-Asiatic language, like Santhali. Days should havebeen 48 hours long.

20 (2 )

Karthik

Days should have been 48 hours long

20

(2

)

Misanthrope

I would sincerely hope that you gain mastery over tamil to give us more clarity on thisconfusion or atleast have a plan to do it in the future.

Dibya, you have a great responsibility (and the consequent blame for anything similar in

the future) on your shoulders.

20 (2 )

Rohith

Thanks Dibya

you mentioned that it is claimed as "Prakrit to Sanskrit reborrowing: Vedic vasna >Prakrit *vaN- > reborrowed into Sanskrit".

However, Vasna was not mentioned in any of the Sanskrit Dictionaries as the source for

Vanij or Vanik (to my knowledge).

According to Apte's dictionary, it is mentioned that the meaning of vasnam is Hire/wages and its root is - . The meanings of Vanij / vij were mentionedin it as merchant without giving its root.

But in Monier-Williams Sanskrit-English Dictionary, the roots for vaija &vija andVasna were not given.

How the word Vasnam (hire/wage) relates to Vanija (merchant). Could you substantiateit?

Why there is no etymological concurrence among nighantukaar/ lexicographers in thisregard (particularly)?
http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=17332123850766077602http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=10627702961035681362http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=9128502351512066633http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=9128502351512066633http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=9128502351512066633http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=9128502351512066633http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=10627702961035681362http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=17332123850766077602


3/4

Is there any possible cognate words for Vanij in PIE? Is it mentioned in Dhatu patha?

pls clarify us in this regard. Thanks in advance.

8:03 pm (15 )

Dibya ()

you mentioned that it is claimed as "Prakrit to Sanskrit reborrowing

umm ... I guess there has been some misunderstanding. I didn't say "it is claimed", Isaid "it has been claimed", referring only to the suggestion made in this thread.

How the word Vasnam (hire/wage) relates to Vanija (merchant). Could yousubstantiate it?

No, I cannot. If I could, I would have supported the "vasna > vaNij" claim!

Why there is no etymological concurrence among nighantukaar/ lexicographersin this regard (particularly)?

My guess is: because the etymology is not clear to them.

Is there any possible cognate words for Vanij in PIE?

I don't know of any.

Is it mentioned in Dhatu patha?

How can this be in the "Dhatu Patha"? Isn't that a list of verb-roots? Just for info, if

anybody is interested: Dhatu Patha apparently has a root "vaN-", to sound.

====

A couple more counter points for "vasna > vaNij" suggestion via Prakrit:- "vaNij" seems to have been attested in the Rgveda; so a Prakritic ancestry is veryunlikely.- In Prakrits the "sn" cluster does not produce a pure nasal, but a nasal followed by a "h"(or in early Prakrits, "h" followed by nasal), which is not the case here.

9:08 pm (13 )

Rohith

Thanks Dibya

It is therefore evident that there is no satisfactory/convincing etymological explanationfor Sanskrit claim over Vanij.

We are purposely giving benefit of doubt to Sanskrit only, without evidence/ testing theveracity of Sanskrit claims. We are deliberately doing injustice to the right one (Sanskrittoo). We are not ready to allow counter claims ab initio.
http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=9128502351512066633http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=9128502351512066633http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=9128502351512066633http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=9128502351512066633http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Profile?uid=14385319614912106650


4/4

It is my personal opinion that this kind of favoritism will not good for Linguistic. It shouldalways be unbiased and impartial. audi alterem partem.

did baniya come from tamil vanikan

Documents