deposition of wallace hooper, united states vs… · in the united states district court for the...
TRANSCRIPT
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
-x V* * * * * * * * * *
UNITED STATES
v.
GENERAL ELECTRIC COMPANYand WINDSOR-EMBASSY CORPORATION
* * * * [
******
Case No.C 91-467-D
Volume II* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
DEPOSITION OF WALLACE HOOPER
Deposition taken by agreement of counsel,
held at the U.S. Attorney's Office,
55 Pleasant Street, Concord, New Hampshire,
on Thursday, May 21, 1992, commencing at
9:30 a.m.
Court Reporter:
Sandra de Vasconcellos, CSR, RPR
DAVID R. JORDAN & ASSOCIATESCertified Shorthand Reporters
(603) 778-7710N.H. 1-800-562-3945
P.O. Box 303Exeter, NH 03833
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APPEARANCES:
For the Plaintiff U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICEBy: Gretchen Leah Witt, Esq55 Pleasant StreetConcord, NH 03301
For the DefendantGE Company: BINGHAM, DANA & GOULD
By: Paul J. Lambert, Esq.1550 M StreetWashington, D.C. 20005
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I N D E X
WITNESS;
Wallace Hooper
EXAMINATION:
By Mr. Lambert
By Ms. Witt
By Mr. Lambert
By Ms. Witt
By Mr. Lambert
EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION;
None .
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WALLACE HOOPER.
having been previously sworn by,
was deposed and testified as follows
EXAMINATION
BY MR. LAMBERT:
Mr. Hooper, when was the first time that you were
aware of Mr. Fletcher's plans to purchase pyranol?
Well, the first time I went out out there was the
night that the Russians sent the Sputnik up. I
remember this because out in Hudson Falls this is
what they were talking about, and we didn't know
too much about it or I didn't at the time, and I
think it was '57, I believe.
Okay. Before you went out on that trip, did you
have any conversations with Mr. Fletcher with
respect to the pyranol?
Well, he told me -- I don't remember now. I know
he was the one that sent me, and I did talk with
him. I was supposed to pick up the barrels. I
don't know now whether I knew what it was or not.
I don't remember whether I knew then or not.
Did Mr. Fletcher describe to you at that time or
around that time what he intended to do with the
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pyranol that you brought back?
No, I don't think he knew. He had to find a
customer for it first.
Did he tell you that he was going to look for a
customer for it?
Well, I suspected that I knew it because he was in
that type of work, buying stuff and selling all
the time. So I imagine I suspected that he would
find a customer for it or be looking for one.
When we were here last time, you described the
arrival at Milford of some trucks with drums of
pyranol. Was that before or after you made your
first trip?
That was before.
Okay. Let's start with that, then,
chronologically. Did you have any discussions
with Mr. Fletcher with respect to the shipments of
pyranol that came on the trucks?
Boy, that's a long time ago. I don't know.
Well, at some point, I take it, you were aware
that he was making efforts to sell the pyranol, is
that correct?
Uh-huh.
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How did you know that he was making efforts to
sell the pyranol? Was that as a result of
conversations with him?
Well, he was advertising it and he was sending out
samples.
Were you involved in either the advertising or the
sending out of samples personally?
I was not involved in the advertising; that was
all done from the head office. I don't remember
whether I put samples up or not; I may have. I
know that samples went out. He advertised it, and
if a company sent back and wanted some, you'd send
them a five-gallon sample, as I recall.
Do you recall that these samples that went out
came from the shipments that came in on the truck
as opposed to drums that you had picked up in
New York?
I think they would have gone out before I went
out, maybe. So I would have known before that.
Was there any time during the first year or so
that the -- year or so after the pyranol began to
arrive ,at Milford that you had some conversations
with Mr. Fletcher relating to what he planned to
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do with the pyranol or to whom he intended to sell
it or anything like that?
I don't recall that I did; I may have, but this
would have been way back in the early '50s
somewhere, '50 — I don't know what year they
came, '51, '2 or '3.
Okay. Can you recall in general terms, at least,
however, that you had conversations with him in
which he indicated that his plan was to resell the
pyranol?
I imagine I did.
Do you remember who was involved in the
advertising of the pyranol for Mr. Fletcher?
Well, back then it probably would have been
himself.
Do you have any recollection of the newspapers or
magazines or periodicals in which he advertised?
Well, he used to advertise in chemical magazines.
I can't tell you the names of all of them now, but
they were --
Were they specialty chemical magazines, in the
sense that they dealt with recycled or salvaged
material?
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A lot of that, yes, as I recall.
My question is whether or not the magazines dealt
with that subject, as opposed to were they
chemical magazines that simply had some sort of
classified ads in the back, do you know that? Do
you know which of those it was?
I think he advertised in several magazines, and of
course I don't know if he advertised that in the
American Paint Journal or not, but he did used to
advertise a lot in that.
And then there was a large magazine I used
to pick it out of the rubbish barrel and read it
while I was eating my lunch sometimes that he used
to get. It was a chemical magazine, I know that.
I forget just what the name of it was, and then
sometimes he used to advertise things in like the
New York Times. Now, whether he would have
advertised that in the New York Times or not, I
don't know.
At the time when the first shipments of pyranol
came, was Mr. Fletcher already in the business of
buying and selling chemical products?
Yes, he did that years before that.
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Your recollection was that the first pyranol came
in the early 1950s sometime?
I would say so. I'm not sure what year.
And it's your recollection now that prior to then,
for a period of years, he was buying and selling
chemical products?
Uh-huh.
And did those include chemical products that had
been in some way used previously so that they were
scrap or salvage?
Well, he was always buying anything he thought he
could make a dime on, whether it was chemical
products or whether it was something else.
Do you know where he looked to — did you ever see
him or talk to him about where he looked or where
he heard about the products that he bought?
Well, I suspect that he found advertisements on
these things, I have an idea.
What's your idea based on? Is it your
recollection, or are you just guessing?
Well, I'm guessing, more or less, because he got
all these papers, chemical papers, and books and
magazines and obsolete surplus chemical magazines
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and things. So I suspect that's how he found out
about it, but I could be wrong.
Was there anybody who worked closely with him back
in the early '50s in connection with buying and
selling products?
Back in the early '50s he did most of it. Of
course afterwards there was other people he hired.
I would say then that he was -- of course the
company, the paint company, was small and growing
back then.
Did you ever see or hear of ads published by
General Electric relating to pyranol?
Not that I recall.
Did you play any role in the sending out of the
samples of the pyranol to prospective customers of
Mr. Fletcher?
I think that he ordered or asked us to pick out a
good drum of pyranol, as I recall, and put it into
five-gallon cans, and of course it was capped up,
and those cans were to be sent to people who
wanted a sample.
Back in the '50s and '60s, had you had any kind of
training in dealing with chemicals as opposed to
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on-the-job training?
Not really.
Just on-the-job training?
Mostly on the job. I did — he sent Ricky and I
to Northeastern University a couple nights a week
for classes, but that was mostly for paint. That
was for paint formulations and things.
Do you recall in what period of time you went to
classes at Northeastern?
I would have said it was in the 1960s somewhere,
but I'm not sure.
Was that a lab program, or was that a class with
textbooks and no actual chemicals?
We had textbooks, no actual chemicals.
What was the period of time at Fletcher's when you
were actually involved in the making of paint,
what years, as best you can recall?
In the actual making of paint?
Yeah, handling the raw materials and mixing the
paint.
Well, I stopped in 1970, I know that, mixing paint
because that's when I had a gallbladder operation.
I never mixed any paint after that. I would
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say -- well, they fired the paint mixer because he
mixed a bunch of stain wrong, and I would say that
would be -- I'm not sure what year, maybe '65,
'66, somewhere along in there, and then I mixed
paint after that.
So your responsibilities for mixing paint were in
the period of approximately five years, give or
take a couple?
I would say so. Before that I did mix some,
but -- I did help mix some before that, but I used
to work on the can filling and labeling and things
like that more than I did after I started — after
he fired the paint mixer.
Do you recall whether he fired the paint mixer
before or after your last pickup at General
Electric?
Oh, that was long before that.
I'm sorry, which was long before which?
He fired him long before the pickup at General
Electric. Wait a minute now. What am I saying?
It might have been the other way around?
I think it was the other way around.
So that you think that you became the paint maker
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after the last time you went to General Electric?
No, the last time I went to General Electric was
in 19 — I'm not sure of the year there, either,
but I would say "74. I'm absolutely really not
sure of the year.
Do you recall whether you went to General Electric
after you had your gallbladder operation?
Yes, I'm pretty sure I did. I couldn't do
anything for a while. The gallbladder operation
got me all upset and I didn't handle any heavy
stuff and things for a while, but I think I did
after awhile, I think I went afterwards. In fact,
I'm pretty sure I did.
Do you recall whether you exchanged paperwork at
General Electric for the entire time you went
there?
As far as I remember, I exchanged paperwork every
time, every trip, as far as I remember.
Do you recall there was a dispute at some point
about whether Fletcher's was going to pay for
pyranol from General Electric?
Well, I know that —
Can you answer that specific question, first, do
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you recall a dispute at some point in time as to
whether Fletcher's would pay for pyranol?
No, not really.
Were you aware of any efforts being made at any
time by General Electric to get Fletcher's to pay
for pyranol that Fletcher's had picked up and not
paid for?
Well, I wasn't aware of it, but I suppose it could
have happened, especially at the last of it.
Was there anything in your — I'm trying to get a
sense of -- the best sense I can as to when the
last General Electric pickup was because the
General Electric — well, I'm trying to get a
sense as to when the last pickup was.
Was there anything that happened in your
personal life in the '60s that you can recall the
date of clearly so I can ask you whether you
recall going to General Electric after that
occurred, anything in the '60s that stands out?
I could think of things, but I don't know if they
happened in the '60s or not.
Okay. , Over about a how many year period did you
go, did you actually drive to General Electric?
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Well, I didn't drive every trip.
I understand.
And there was summers I didn't drive any out
there.
What years were included in the years that you
drove?
Well, while I was — the years I was mixing paint,
many trips I didn't make out there; another truck
driver would be — quite a few times. In the
winter I was more apt to go because the paint
business was slow in the winter, but in the summer
he wanted me there while the paint business was
booming and there was a lot of paint to be made.
Is it your recollection that you drove back and
forth to General Electric over a period of 15 to
20 years, that long a time?
Well, I would say — I'm pretty sure it was '57
when we started, I think in April, and I would say
'73 or '4, somewhere around in there, we stopped.
Now, I tell you what I'm basing that on. He
bought an International truck in 1972, I think it
was. That was a surplus truck from the state
here, but it was only two years old. And with
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that truck I went to GE a few times; I can't tell
you how many, but I'm pretty sure I did.
How do you recall the truck was purchased around
1972?
It was a 1970 truck and it was two years old when
he bought it.
You mentioned the last time you were here that you
dealt with Tony Metevier?
Uh-huh.
And after him Ed Varnum, is that correct?
Uh-huh.
Were they the people who you understood to be in
charge at GE of the business that you had there?
Yes, in charge of the salvage.
What periods of the years that you went to GE was
Metevier there and what period Mr. Varnum, as best
you can recall?
That's a good question. No, I'm not sure.
Metevier would have been — I'm not sure. I would
say Metevier somewhere in the late '60s, I would
think, was transferred to another department or
something. He still worked for General Electric,
but he worked for another department, and I can
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give you a little inkling, I think, maybe on that.
When did they start selling sweepstake
tickets in New Hampshire, anyone know? Well,
Mr. Metevier wanted me to — he wanted to give me
some money and get some for him, and it was all in
the papers and everything about it, and -- well, I
didn't know whether it was legal for me to buy
them and take them over the state line or not, so
I asked Mr. Fletcher about it. He said go ahead
and do it. So I did it.
Now, if I recall, Metevier about that time
was leaving the salvage department and being
transferred to this other place, and -- because I
remember when I took the tickets back the second
or third time I bought them, I think he had moved
and he was in another office. And I found where
he was and went to that office so I could give him
the tickets, but I can't tell you what year it
was .
Okay. About how many years did you deal with
Mr. Varnum?
Well, after Mr. Metevier left the department, not
as many as with Metevier. I don't know, five or
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six years, give or take.
Was Mr. Varnum still in charge at the time you
made your last pickup at GE?
I don't recall that he wasn't, so I think he
probably was.
I want to go back to Mr. Fletcher's efforts to
market the pyranol for a minute. Do you recall
whether there were any other products that he was
marketing at the same time he was selling pyranol
that he had purchased as opposed to manufactured;
in other words, where he was a middleman but
nothing more?
Gee, I don't know. I imagine there were, but I
can't think of what they could have been.
When you were the paint maker, you had access to
the recipes for the paint?
Uh-huh.
Do you know whether chlorinated materials,
chlorinated solvents or chlorinated chemicals were
ever used in the paint-making process?
A small amount of arochlor, but it was a very
small amount went into rubber-based paint. I
remember that we made rubber-based paint. He
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brought in a drum of arochlor or two, and then we
were running out of what he brought in.
He had bought this from General Electric.
It was sitting in the backyard. He said why don't
we try to use that, he said, but there wasn't much
that was used in the paint. I forget, there was
only a gallon or two to 100 gallons of paint.
How about other chlorinated material, like
chlorobenzene or trichloroethylene?
Trichloroethylene, that was a — let's see, was
that the metal cleaner? I'm not sure now.
Were there any materials, any chemicals, you can
recall using that had the word chloro in there
somewhere?
Yeah, there was something, but I can't think of
what it was or what we used it in. See, over the
years he made a lot of things beside paint. Like
he made floor wax and things like that.
Was there any time during the period that you were
going to GE that you were the person who was
responsible for arranging the pickups?
No, I don't think so. I think that always came
out of the office. They would tell me when they
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wanted the truck to go or whoever was going.
Did you ever have firsthand information as to what
the nature of the business arrangement was between
Mr. Fletcher and GE relating to the material that
you were bringing back from GE?
I don't recall that I —
Let me ask it to you differently. Did
Mr. Fletcher ever tell you what the business
arrangement was that he had with GE with respect
to any of the products that he picked up there?
The business arrangement that he had?
What he was paying, what it was he had arranged to
buy, how much he had arranged to pay for it.
I think I knew at the time what he paid for it,
but I don't remember now.
Were you aware of any other business arrangements
at the time other than the price?
Well, I know that we were getting things that were
not pyranol. If there was pyranol in it, there
wasn't much in it, and I know he complained about
that because it was stuff we couldn't use or —
How do you know that he complained, did he tell
you that or did -- who told you that?
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I think he told me, and I knew from out there,
too.
When you say you knew from out there, what do you
mean?
Well, Mr. Fletcher made a deal with —
Let me just ask the question again. Let me
rephrase the question.
MR. LAMBERT: Can you read it back. I want
to try to keep this in small pieces for the
moment.
(Question read.)
Okay. Answer that question.
Well, Mr. Fletcher had made a deal with Metevier
because we had been getting drums that were marked
maybe 1499 or something to be — supposed to be
pyranol but they wasn't, either they wasn't
pyranol at all or if they were it was such a small
amount in them that he called — I suppose he
called Metevier and talked with him about it.
And according to — we were getting a lot of
drums that were not full, too. And of course
originally we had the thing from Mr. Fletcher to
take all drums that they gave us.
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So he made a deal with Metevier that every
so often he would give us a load of pyranol. It
was supposed to be pyranol to take the place of
the ones that we couldn't use, if you see what I
mean.
So the paperwork was always passed on these,
as far as I was concerned. I would have to sign
the paper and all that and I would get the paper,
but as I understood it, these were never passed
in. Of course they gave me the paperwork in case
I got stopped going out or something.
Did you have any conversations with Mr. Metevier
about this arrangement?
Well, I knew it was going on, I know that, and I
remember telling Metevier that we were getting
stuff that wasn't pyranol or —
Can you remember any conversations that you had
with Mr. Metevier concerning this arrangement that
you've just described where GE provided drums of
pyranol at no cost to Fletcher's to make up for
drums that had previously been sent that
Fletcher's found objectionable?
I think I did. I think he told me on the side on
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a few occasions that these papers would not go
into the head office unless something happened
that I got stopped going out or something.
Which papers were they? Which papers was he
referring to when he said they were not going to
go into the head office?
Well, that was eight and a half by eleven size, I
think, about the size of these, and they were
General Electric -- what do you call them?
Forms of some sort?
Yes, forms.
Okay. Did you ever have any discussions with
Mr. Fletcher about this arrangement that you can
recall?
Well, I think he told us that this was going on.
This was during Mr. Metevier's time period,
obviously?
Yes. I know there was one trip that we went out
and, I don't know, we picked up a bunch of stuff.
99 percent of it wasn't what we wanted, you see
what I mean. It was too thinned out stuff or
something. I think that was when he started to
complain about it. We had had the trouble before,
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but it was getting to the point where he didn't
want to pay for this stuff.
Did you have any conversations with Mr. Fletcher
about the material that you're now describing?
I probably did. I don't recall specifically.
Did he ever express to you, Mr. Fletcher, the idea
that he didn't want to pay for certain material?
Well, I think that — I don't know as he expressed
it to me, really, but it was what I surmised.
Okay. Based upon what?
On the stuff that we were getting that wasn't
always pyranol or wasn't always good; it was
thinned out too much or something.
Do you know whether or not Mr. Fletcher had made
arrangements with GE to pick up material that was
not all pyranol?
Well, one time we picked up some open-head drums
of paint, I remember, but that was Mr. Metevier
had told him about the paint and made the deal
with him on that, I know that.
That was Mr. Fletcher purchasing paint on purpose,
right?
Yeah.
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Now, on the pyranol, do you know whether or not
there were any communications between Mr. Fletcher
and GE that related specifically to the question
of the purchase of pyranol that had been thinned
out in some way?
Well, a lot of it had been thinned out in some
way.
All right. Do you know whether there was any
conversation between Mr. Fletcher and GE on that
subject?
I don't know.
Did Mr. Fletcher ever describe to you any
conversations that he had with GE on that subject,
that you can recall?
Well, no, not really.
Did you ever have any conversations with anyone at
GE in which the GE person described conversations
that he had with Mr. Fletcher on that subject?
Well, I know they was aware of the fact that we
were getting stuff that wasn't completely pyranol,
so I think probably I did have some conversation
with them, something about it.
Can you remember any of the conversations?
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A Not really.
Q Did you ever become aware
had water mixed in it?
A Was I aware of it?
Q Yes .
A Most certainly was. You
water, especially in the
Ft. Edward, because they
up on the bungs good, and
the top of the barrel and
would fill full of water
drums .
Q Just rain water?
A Well, that would be rain
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that some of the pyranol
couldn't help but have
pyranol that came from
didn't tighten the caps
the bungs would be on
the top of the barrel
and it would go into the
water, yes. I don't know
how much water got in otherwise.
Q You said the last time you were here, and I think
again today, that some of
were — were too thin; it
material?
A Yeah.
Q Was there a time when you
the pyranol drums
wasn't a good, thick
became aware that there
was water -- that, water was one of the reasons or
the reason why the pyranol was thin?
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Water didn't mix with the pyranol; water stayed on
top.
Did you ever see water on top of the pyranol?
Yes.
When you brought back drums to Fletcher's that had
material in them other than pyranol which made the
pyranol thin, am I right in understanding that the
practice was to blend drums of heavy stuff with
drums of the thinner pyranol in order to make
loads that were sufficiently thick to be sold to
Webster?
Right.
And am I correct that at times the — strike that.
Let me go back to GE for a minute.
Did you ever have any discussions with
Mr. Metevier or Mr. Varnum or anyone else at GE
with respect to what was in the drums of pyranol
other than pyranol, that you can recall?
I don't know whether I had any discussions with
them about that or not.
Can you recall ever being shown any kind of
chemical analysis of what was in the pyranol drums
by anyone at GE?
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No.
Can you recall ever seeing a chemical analysis of
what was in the pyranol drums that was prepared by
anyone at Fletcher's or anyone else for that
matter?
No.
Did anyone from GE ever describe to you how the
pyranol that was in the drums that you picked up
came to be put into those drums?
Well, as I recall, some of the fellows there told
me that it was the drainings of the tanks when
they got done a run or something, and they —
sometimes the cleaner was mixed in.
Did they describe to you a procedure? When you
talk about the drainings of the tanks, did they
describe to you a procedure where capacitors were
filled with pyranol until they overflowed?
I don't recall that. I knew they had pyranol in
them, but I don't know about them overflowing.
Can you recall who at GE was the source of this
information relating to drainings?
I think it was some of the fellows that worked
there, some of the fellows helped load the truck.
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Not Mr. Varnum or Mr. Metevier?
I don't think so, but I'm not sure.
When they said drainings, did they describe the
drainings in any kind of detail so that you
understood what they meant?
No, I don't think. This was all done in a
different building, I think.
That was my next question. Did you ever see the
drums of pyranol being filled before you got
there?
No.
So to the extent that you actually observed the
pyranol at GE, what you were observing is what you
could see when you opened some of the drums to
check it before you brought it back to Milford, is
that correct?
Well, we didn't open the drums there; we did at a
later date, but we didn't originally, especially
at Ft. Edward, if I recall, checked them closer
because we had more problem with the pyranol from
Ft. Edwards than at Hudson Falls.
Do you recall when it was you began checking the
drums?
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That was after Mr. Varnum came, I believe.
Mr. Varnum was more of a company man than Metevier
was. These free loads and things were done with
Metevier, as I recall, and Varnum wanted to charge
for anything that went out no matter what was in
it.
Did you ever have discussions with Mr. Varnum on
that subject yourself?
I don't recall that I did, but I'm sure
Mr. Fletcher did.
Did Mr. Fletcher ever describe those conversations
to you that you can recall?
Not that I recall.
Back to a question I asked you before, at the
point at which you began to check the contents of
the drums, what exactly did you do?
Well, we had a round siphon thing that you stick
down in the drum. Of course it went down about,
oh, I don't know, about so far in the drum and
pulled the handle up and it would fill up with
pyranol.
Like a siphon? ,
Like a siphon, yeah. And then we carried a glass
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beaker with us and a thing with a float, and I
forget now whether there was markings on it and I
forget now — it checked specific gravity, that's
what we were checking. It had to come to a
certain thing, a certain number, or else we didn't
take it, and that took time, but.
Did you check each drum?
Checked each drum. Well, as I recall, I used to
put the thing in, pull out a little bit, see how
heavy it was. If it was heavy, I didn't bother
checking the viscosity and hydrometer, but if it
was thin and questionable, as I recall, then I
would check it.
And if it didn't meet your standards, you rejected
it?
That's right.
And didn't pay for it?
That's right, didn't take it, period.
And this process began when Mr. Varnum took over?
Yeah, I believe so.
But not Mr. Metevier's time?
No, not that I recall, anyway. I'm pretty sure it
was — because Mr. Metevier was taking care of us
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Q
on these drums, but Varnum, different type of
fellow completely, and he didn't want to take care
of us on them.
Do you know whether or not Mr. Metevier was ever
told that the practice back at Milford was to take
the drums of thinner pyranol and mix them with
heavier drums — mix them with heavier material
from other drums?
I don't know; not to my knowledge. You see,
Webster Cement paid two different prices, I
believe. The real heavy stuff they paid more
money for than they would the thinner stuff.
I'd like to ask a couple more questions about
conversations you might or might not have had at
General Electric when you went out there. You
described a couple of minutes ago what some of the
men told you with respect to the processes that
produced the pyranol that was in the drums.
Apart from what you told me then, that is
the reference to the drainings, is there anything
else you can recall that you were told with
respect to how the pyranol came to be in the drums
that you were picking up?
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Well, I remember at least on one occasion — I'm
not sure but two — on one occasion General
Electric got hold of some pyranol. It was — I
don't know, there was something wrong with it.
Off spec?
Something like that. I don't know exactly what
the problem was, whether something got into it and
contaminated it or what, but it was as good as new
pyranol, but they drummed it all up and we were
getting it.
Apart from that and apart from the drainings, can
you remember anything else that you were told
about the sources of the pyranol that you were
picking up?
Their sources?
Yes. In other words, how it came to be in the
drums. Where did it come from?
Well, I never was in the buildings where it was
put into the drums.
Right.
So I really don't know. I saw the freight cars,
especially at Ft. Edward, used to drive right by
it. It said Monsanto Chemical, and I believe it
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was marked with a little sign that contained
pyranol. That was how they got it, I believe.
But the pyranol that you were picking up, based
upon what you were told by the GE people, came to
be considered scrap or salvage, or whatever it was
that they referred to it as, because it had been
the drainings from some process that GE carried on
using the raw material it had purchased from
Monsanto?
Yeah.
Now, do you know in what part of the GE facility
the drums were filled?
No, I don't think I did know. I may have at the
time, but I don't recall that I did.
Can you remember the names of any of the GE people
that you spoke with, other than Mr. Metevier and
Mr. Varnum, who discussed with you where the
pyranol came from?
Well, it seems to me there was a fellow that used
to run a forklift there by the name of Tom, but —
there was several that run the forklifts there,
but I -- and then there, was the forklift driver at
Ft. Edwards. I'm trying to think of his name —
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Ted something.
Can you remember anything in particular that
either Ted or Tom told you with respect to where
the pyranol came from, anything you can attribute
to them individually?
Not really.
Were you ever told that General Electric was
sending pyranol that it considered to be of poor
quality to landfills in New York?
Not really, but I don't know what they did with
what we left behind that we didn't take. It
always seemed to me as if General Electric was
darn glad to have somebody take it.
Happy to have somebody pay to take it?
Pay to take it, yeah. So I think they had a
problem getting rid of it.
Did anyone ever tell you they had a problem
getting rid of it or was that a surmise?
Well, that was more or less a surmise, but —
Can you recall what Mr. Varnum's title was when
you dealt with him?
Oh, gosh --
That' s too hard.
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— I don't recall. I always called him the head
man of the salvage department, but I think he
might have had another title.
Okay.
See, Mr. Metevier was in charge of the salvage and
the stationary department, I think, at Hudson
Falls; but then after he left the salvage
department, he was at Ft. Edward because that's
where I went to see him with the tickets, I know,
that time.
You testified the last time that Mr. Fletcher
instructed you not to tell General Electric —
That's right.
— what he was doing with the pyranol.
That's right.
Was that because — did Mr. Fletcher tell you that
that was because he wanted to make sure that GE
didn't find another customer?
Probably; I don't know, but.
He did instruct you not to tell them?
Yeah.
Did he also instruct you not to tell Webster where
he, Fletcher, got his pyranol?
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That's right.
And did he tell you why you weren't supposed to
tell?
I don't know as he told us specifically why, but
when the truck came back from Ft. Edward or Hudson
Falls or wherever it had been, or wherever we had
picked it up, all the markings were supposed to be
obliterated. We had to clean the drum a lot of
times, had to clean the drum in order to paint it
off because they were messy.
And why was that done?
Well, he didn't want anybody to know what it was,
I guess, and where it came from.
Did he tell you that he didn't want Webster to
know that the pyranol had come from GE in order to
prevent Webster from dealing with GE directly?
I don't know as he ever told me that, but I always
had a feeling that might be.
You testified last time that some of the pyranol
you picked up was in drums that were marked
Tri-Clean-D, is that right?
Uh-huh, they were used drums.
You understood that these were drums that GE had
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purchased Tri-Clean-D in and then was reusing the
drums for pyranol?
Yeah.
Did Fletcher's ever purchase Tri-Clean-D from some
sources of its own?
They got a few drums from GE.
Apart from what it got from GE, did Fletcher ever
purchase Tri-Clean-D from some other source to
your knowledge?
Not to my knowledge.
Did you ever work with it when you were paint
maker?
Tri-Clean-D?
Yes.
No.
Did you ever see any kind of analysis of what was
contained in Tri-Clean-D?
I don't remember whether the drum label told or
not; it could have, I don't recall. The
Tri-Clean-D drums had labels on them, paper
labels. It may have told, but I don't recall.
Did you know from any qther source what the
constituents of Tri-Clean-D were, the chemical
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constituents?
The only thing I ever knew about was it was some
sort of a metal cleaner, that's what I always
considered it to be.
Based upon what did you consider it to be a metal
cleaner?
Well, I think it was on the label. I don't
remember for sure, but I think it was on the»
label. I forget who made it. What chemical was
it? I don't remember now. I know it's some other
chemical company other than Monsanto.
Did you ever have any discussions with anyone at
GE relating to Tri-Clean-D, to your knowledge,
that you can recall now?
I don't recall having any. There were other
markings on the drums beside Tri-Clean-D, used
drums.
There were other used drums that didn't have
Tri-Clean-D on them?
Yeah, they had other chemical names on them. I
don't recall what they all were now, but.
Now, you mentioned that you picked up some drums
on one of your trips that contained paint
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products?
Yes.
Do you know what Mr. Fletcher did with the paint?
Well, I imagine we reprocessed it and sold it. I
don't remember.
Do you know one way or the other, do you have any
knowledge?
I would imagine that's what happened.
I'm trying to —
That's a long time ago.
Yeah, I know. I'm trying to find out whether or
not you actually know what happened to that paint
after you brought it back to the plant as opposed
to what you surmised happened to it.
Well, I really don't recall, but I expect I may
have seen. It probably was dumped into a tank and
mixed up and, I would guess — and done whatever
they could have done with it.
I appreciate — all of us think we know things and
we draw inferences from facts around us, but what
I'm trying to find out now is what exactly if
anything — if you can recall exactly what
happened to those particular drums. Do you
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remember that they were mixed in with other paint
or —
They could have been. I don't recall, to tell you
the truth.
Fine, okay.
I may not have done it, but I recall picking them
up. But he was always wheeling and dealing with
other companies on paints and things.
So he could have resold it?
Oh, yeah.
The last time you testified you referred to
cleaners as being in some of the drums. Were you
referring to Tri-Clean-D, or were you referring to
something else?
In some of the pyranol drums?
Yes.
Well, I know a lot of them had Tri-Clean-D in
them, and there may have been others, I'm not sure
now.
There were some drums of Tri-Clean-D that GE sold
to Mr. Fletcher, is that correct?
No,t intentionally.
Okay. Then I misunderstood testimony the last
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time.
Well, he got some, but I don't know —
Do you know whether or not it was intentional or
not that he got drums —
I don't think it was intentional.
Do you know whether or not it was intentional? In
other words, did Mr. Fletcher ever tell you it was
unintentional?
No, but we got a few drums mixed in every now and
then that were Tri-Clean-D. In fact, we got some
that never were opened, just as they came from the
factory.
You didn't mention that last time.
And so -- and I knew he could sell it because he
already got some sold. I went out there one day,
and this was at Ft. Edward, the guy out there --
because Mr. Fletcher said in those days take
whatever drums they can give you -- two or three
pallets of brand new drums of Tri-Clean-D, so I
took them.
Did you tell us last time that Mr. Fletcher resold
those drums of Tri-Clean-D to someone else?
Yeah.
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That's what I thought. Apart from Tri-Clean-D,
were there any other cleaners or what you thought
of was a cleaner that was contained in any of the
drums?
Not to my knowledge, but there may have been, I
don't recall.
Was there ever a time when you brought back drums
of pyranol that was not intentionally scrapped by
GE; that is, raw pyranol never used in the form in
which it was delivered from —
That I picked up?
Yes.
I don't recall specifically of it, but I could
have.
Did GE ever ask to get any of its pyranol back?
Yes.
Which pyranol was that?
As I recall, the first loads that he got, which I
always thought — I don't know how I knew but came
from Pittsfield, Mass., and he was trying to sell
it, and I think he had found a customer for it,
I'm not sure now.
And I remember him saying that GE had
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contacted him and there was some of the drums that
was good stuff, that was new stuff that was never
supposed to have been sent to him, I think, and
they liked to buy them back. But he didn't
want — as I recall, he didn't want to take the
time to go through the pile and find them, and
probably he had already sold some of them.
So he never sent any back, to my knowledge,
but they did — there were some drums that
apparently they weren't supposed to send to us
that somehow got on the truck, I guess, and we got
them.
And as I said, they had some — at least on
one occasion, I'm not sure but two occasions,
drums that were — it was new stuff, never been
used, but it was something about it was off spec
or something -- I don't know just what the story
was on it — and we got it. But for any other
purpose it was just as good as new stuff.
You testified last time that it became the
practice, became your practice at some point after
you started dealing with GE, to check the drums
over to see if they were in good condition, that
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is with gaskets and bungs.
Yeah.
Did this checking over process occur at GE or did
it occur at Fletcher's?
Well, originally it occurred at Fletcher's, but
then after we got so many drums the covers wasn't
tight on or the gaskets were gone or something, we
started to carry a box of gaskets and extra bungs
and a bung wrench with us and to tighten the bungs
up, at least before we left General Electric, or
to check them to see if they were tight.
How long before you stopped going to General
Electric had that become your practice at this
time?
I don't know, not too long after we started going
because we had problems — one of the trucks we
had had a metal bottom in it, and it tips the
drums up when you're loading them and the stuff on
the top would come off onto the floor and make the
floor slippery. And so we wanted to stop that as
much as we could.
So you took a repair kit with you, so to speak?
Yeah.
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When the drums arrived at Fletcher's and they were
loaded off the truck, did you ever stay to observe
what happened to them next? Remember the last
time you said that oftentimes you went home to
bed?
That's right. Oh, yeah, I saw them unloading
sometimes. In fact, I helped unload them a few
times, but a lot of times I left when I got back.
Was the integrity of the drums checked again at
that point, was that the practice, or do you know?
Yeah, they were supposed to be checked and painted
off the markings on them.
Were the bungs and gaskets checked again before
they were stored on site?
I believe they were supposed to be, yes. I quite
often didn't do it, but I think they were supposed
to do it.
Was there someone who was supposed to do it every
time?
Yeah.
You testified last time that there was leakage,
nevertheless, from those drums when they were left
on the property, is that correct?
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Uh-huh.
Was there leakage, to your recollection, even from
the drums that had been checked over with gaskets
and tops put on properly?
I don't think the leakage was as bad after that,
but I suspect there probably was some.
What was it that caused the leakage even from
secure drums, drums that were in good shape?
Well, if you leave a drum and it stays out there
all winter long and ice gets frozen around it, you
know, on the bottom layer and things, it don't do
the drums any good.
Now, sometimes these drums wasn't always —
had been dented with forklifts and one thing or
another and the paint had been knocked off and the
elements of winter are not good on metal
sometimes.
So you're saying even a good drum left outside for
a period of time would leak?
It could, and some of these drums was — you had
to be careful how you took the top off of some of
them, especially the ones that were filled out at
Ft. Edward. They filled them right clock-a-block
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full. The only thing that held it in was the cap.
You had to stand back. If you didn't, you were
liable to get a shower sometimes, and you stand
back and take — use your bung wrench to take the
cover off. Stuff would fly up in the air they
were so full.
These were closed-head drums?
Yeah, they were supposed to leave an air space in
the drums, but some of them they didn't leave an
air space. Especially in hot water they would
expand and contract. You could stand out in the
yard there and you could hear the drums bang as
they were contracting and as they were expanding.
You testified last time that you also picked up
drums of pyranol from two other companies that you
could recall —
Uh-huh.
— correct?
Yeah.
One was Sprague --
Sprague Electric.
— and one was another company down in the
New Bedford area?
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Yeah.
I think you were asked whether that company was
Aerovox?
I believe it was.
Let me mention another name to you to see if it
rings a bell: Cornell Dubilier?
No.
That was not the company in New Bedford?
It don't sound like it, no.
You think it was Aerovox?
I think it was.
Can you recall anything at all about the location
of that facility in the New Bedford area, anything
that you went past in order to get to it?
Not really. We went down Route 20, is it? I
broke down coming back from there once and was
towed into Sharon, Mass, and got somebody from
Milford to come down and tow the truck with a load
on it. We didn't go down there too many times, as
I recall. Of course they were a small company
compared to General Electric.
I think you testified last time as to what you
could recall as to the number of times you went to
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both New Bedford and to Sprague, and I want to
ask —
I think we went to Sprague more times than
Aerovox, but I can't tell you now how many times.
Do you recall whether the drums you picked up at
Sprague were closed head or open head?
I believe they was closed head.
Was that the same at Aerovox?
I believe so.
Do you recall one way or another how full they
were when they were loaded?
I don't recall.
Do you recall they were also sometimes loaded so
full that when you took off the cap you would get
a shower?
I don't recall that they were. Of course I didn't
always check this stuff, either, so.
Yeah, do you recall one way or the other?
Not really. Ft. Edward, if I remember right, was
the worst place for filling them full.
Do you know how long the Aerovox and Sprague drums
were stored at Fletcher's before they were sold?
No, I don't.
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Am I remembering that you testified last time that
they were stored with the GE pyranol drums, in the
same areas?
I think they were. I don't remember that they
were kept separate.
Do you recall whether you were going to Sprague
during the same period of time you were going to
GE?
Yes.
Can you recall whether your dealing with Sprague
was during the first part or the second part of
your dealings with GE? Can you place the Sprague
dealings in time in the context of your dealings
with —
I would say it was in the late '50s, early '60s.
What I'm basing this on is that the first pyranol
that came from where I said, Pittsfield or
wherever it came from, anyway, by GE trucks was
getting pretty well gone. Mr. Fletcher had sold
most of it, and he was getting anxious to buy some
more.
So he was looking to see where he could get
some more, and I think that's when he contacted
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these other places that made capacitors to see if
they had used pyranol or scrap pyranol. And he
contacted GE, too, because that's where he got the
other, and he found out he could get it at Hudson
Falls. And I think it was about that time that he
made a deal with Aerovox and Sprague.
Do you recall whether Mr. Fletcher was still
dealing with Aerovox and/or Sprague when you
stopped dealing with GE?
I don't recall that he did. I know he went down
to Sprague Electric several years -- I'm pretty
sure it was several years. We'd only go down
about twice a year. Of course they were a small
company, too, compared to General Electric, and he
had the deal with them they would call when they
had about 20 drums or so, as I recall.
You didn't remember the name of the person you
dealt with at Sprague?
No, I don't.
You don't remember the name of the person at
Aerovox, either?
No, it was so long ago. All I remember is one of
the fellows at Sprague Electric that — and I
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don't know what he did there now, but I dealt with
there that used to come up to Rockingham Park to
the racetracks. I know that because I talked with
him about it, I remember that, how he came to get
there.
Can you recall the period of time you dealt with
Aerovox?
I would say in the early to mid '60s, somewhere
along in there.
Do you remember whether you had stopped dealing
with Aerovox, stopped going to Aerovox at the time
you stopped going to General Electric?
I think we stopped going to Aerovox several years
before we stopped going to General Electric
because he was getting so much from General
Electric he didn't need to get it from these other
people, I don't think.
Do you have any firsthand information, that is
based upon your own observations, whether the
Sprague and Aerovox pyranol was stored at
Fletcher's for a longer or shorter time than the
GE pyranol? ,
I would say a shorter time. I'm not sure.
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Why would you say that?
Well, I think it was gotten rid of shortly after
we got it.
What do you recall that made you just say that?
Well, I think at the last of it all that was there
was the General Electric pyranol.
When Sprague and Aerovox pyranol came in in drums,
were those drums painted over like the GE drums
were?
They were supposed to obliterate the marks on all
the drums, as I remember.
After that was done, were the Sprague and Aerovox
drums distinguishable from the GE drums?
No, I don't think so because from GE we got all
kind of drums, black drums, red drums, I think
even blue drums sometimes.
So you couldn't tell by looking at the drums that
were left at the end whether they contained drums
that originally came from GE or whether --
No, I don't.
Let me finish the question. It's very hard for
the reporter to type two of us simultaneously.
So you couldn't tell at the end when you
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looked at the last drums that were still remaining
whether those were drums that had originally come
from GE or whether they were drums that had come
from Sprague or Aerovox?
No, I couldn't tell.
When drums came in with pyranol, they were stored
on their side in piles?
Originally.
Originally at both Elm Street and then to some
degree at Mill Street as well?
Uh-huh.
When they were sold, were the drums that were sold
first the ones on top of the piles, being there —
Yeah, I would imagine it would be, yes.
Do you know whether any effort was made to sell
drums on a first-in, first-out basis so that you
didn't have a situation where the drums on the
bottom were left on the site for long periods of
time, with the drums on the top always being the
first sold off?
Well, for a while there it was — after he had
sold out the Pittsfield stuff and he started
getting them again, as I recall for a while there
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it went pretty fast, and I don't think there was
too much kicking around for a long period of time.
Of course when the first ones came in, it
took him awhile to find a customer for them. He
didn't find a customer the next day or anything.
So they did stay there for a period of time. But
after he — Webster Cement took a lot of it there
for a while there, and as I recall for a while
there it was nip and tuck there.
You were selling it as fast as you could get it?
Well, maybe not quite as fast but pret' near.
When the GE drums came in, you said it was the
practice to open them up to test the contents, see
what was inside?
Uh-huh.
And in some cases they were filtered drums, is
that right?
Uh-huh.
You testified that that was also the practice with
respect to the drums from Aerovox and Sprague, is
that correct?
They would have been opened and checked, yes.
And you testified that on occasion they were
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filtered as well?
I don't remember that they were, but they may have
been.
Okay. When drums were filtered, where was that
done?
Backyard.
Outside?
Out behind the paint store.
Do you know one way or another whether the Sprague
or Aerovox drums were filtered from time to time?
I'm not sure, but they could have been. I won't
swear that they were, but I won't swear that they
wasn't, either. I don't know. A lot of this
filtering I didn't work on. I was inside a lot of
the times.
What was the filtering process?
Well, they had a -- I don't remember now whether
it was a 1,000-gallon or 1,500-gallon tank or
2,000-gallon tank or what it was, but they cut it
around, if you see what I mean. So when it
laid — it was on a troth, sort of. In fact, you
say that's a barrel .there and they cut it right
down through the middle, this big tank, and
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they — let's see, they put it out there and they
dumped pyranol into it. And a lot of the stuff
was pyranol that wasn't up to —
Up to snuff?
Yeah. And then they would also put in some
heavier pyranol, mix it up, and then they would
run it through a filter that they had there.
Yeah, they had to pump it through the filter, had
a pump on it and pumped it through the filter into
another tank, and from there it was filled into
drums again.
Was all the pyranol that was purchased filtered?
No.
Just some?
Just some. It depended on the thickness of it,
and I don't know some of the stuff looked as
though they swept the floor and dumped it into
barrels or something; it was dirty.
And that was filtered?
That was filtered.
Was there anybody in particular at Fletcher's who
had primary responsibility for this filtering
process?
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Well, yeah, there was several people that worked
there, Clyde Bishop —
He was the chemist?
Yeah. Of course he's dead now.
— and Earl — I don't know if he was there
when we were filtering or not, he could have
been — Earl Wesson, Tony Casserino -- of course
he's gone, too — the guys that worked in the
backyard. He always had two or three of them out
their working in the summertime, anyway.
The filtering occurred in the backyard?
Yeah.
Outside?
Yeah. I don't recall that I did very much on
that. I was usually doing something else in the*
paint factory or something.
Did you ever watch the filtering process done?
I've seen it going, but I don't recall that I ever
worked a lot on it, but I've seen —
Did it produce some spillage?
Yeah, it did — of course they got rid of the
water in this -- if there's any water in the
pyranol, the water would come to the top, got rid
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of that.
But the filtering process produced some spillage,
too?
Yeah, couldn't help but produce some. They would
lift the drum up on their — with their forklift.
Of course by that time they had a forklift. When
we originally started, we didn't have a forklift.
We had a tractor but not a forklift.
So any drum that was filtered — any material that
was filtered might have leaked on the ground?
It could have. Richard Fletcher was around there,
too, at the time.
Is this young Richard?
Uh-huh.
If I asked you this before, excuse me for asking
it again, but did the chemist that was on site
ever do analyses of the pyranol, to your
knowledge, chemical analyses to see exactly what
the constituents were?
Well, not to my knowledge, but he may have, I'm
not sure.
You testified last time that most of the pyranol
was sold to Webster, is that correct?
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Biggest part of it.
And you said some was sold to individuals?
Yeah.
And the rest you said some of it was sold to
someone named Mr. Kamiewicki?
I believe he got a bunch of it, if I recall,
probably the last of it that is.
The last of it?
I believe so.
Is there anyone else who you recall receiving
pyranol?
Well, I recall having several drums on the list
there that I don't know who they went to, I don't
recall. I think it was somewhere in New Jersey
for insecticide or something.
Now, at least I think that's what they
told -- said it was going to be used for, and I
know that Mr. Fletcher — I think after he'd sent
out the five-gallon samples, I think he did send
some drums out to a few people, they'd order a
drum or two.
I don't know now who they were. I may not
have known then. I don't know that I really did
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then, but I might have, too. It was a long time
ago.
You didn't have any involvement in sales, I take
it, other than the actual shipping of drums?
No.
Did you have involvement in shipping drums to
people who purchased it?
At different times I did, not all the time.
But no other involvement in the sale of pyranol?
No.
Did you ever go to Webster's?
No, I never went to Webster's.
Webster's came and picked up the drums of pyranol?
They came and picked them up in Milford.
How did they pick them up?
They had a truck, and I forget how many drums the
truck would take. It was quite a good size truck,
but I know occasionally they came -- they ordered
more drums and they came with a trailer truck and
picked it up.
How did they get the drums onto the trucks?
Fletcher's tractor or forklift, after we got it,
loaded them onto the truck, and then we hoisted
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them, as I recall.
When did you get the forklift?
Well, I don't know. I would say somewhere in the
'60s. I'm not sure.
Prior to that time, how did you —
We had an Oliver tractor and it had a boom out on
the front and chain down from that, and they
could — of course it went up and down, the boom
did, so they could pick up drums. They had drum
lifters and things.
And then that was originally the way we did
it when we started out, and then he bought a
forklift, and then he -- before he got done, he
owned a couple forklifts, but I don't know. I
would say back in the '60s somewhere.
Was either process of loading drums prone to
produce spillage?
Well, I suppose if you got a drum up on top up in
the air and it fell — it happened to drop for
some reason, it could cause leakage.
Did you ever see that happen?
Yeah, I've seen it happen, but I don't know if I
saw it happen with pyranol or not, but I've seen
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it happen.
Did you know anything about the nature of the
business arrangement with Webster; in other words,
how much Webster was paying?
I don't recall that I did.
But you do recall there were two different prices
depending upon the —
Yeah, I remember that. Mr. Fletcher explained it
to us why we had to check the viscosity, the
specific gravity and things because apparently
they had been getting some stuff that was a little
bit thin. And I guess they could use it, but they
didn't want to pay so much money for it.
Do you know whether the thin stuff that Webster's
got had been the stuff that had been blended at
Fletcher's?
I don't think we had that problem after we blended
it. In fact, I think they bought a few drums once
or twice that was so thin they didn't want it, and
that's when Mr. Fletcher found out how thick it
had to be for them to want it. And so we started
tp blend it, and that was getting rid of some of
the thinner stuff.
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Uh-huh. To your knowledge, was the thin stuff all
blended into the thicker stuff and then sold to
Webster's?
No. After Webster got done hauling, they sold out
to Essex Cement. And after they got done hauling,
there was still quite a bit of pyranol around.
Was that the stuff that went to Mr. Kamiewicki?
Yeah, I believe he got it, as I recall.
He was located in Amherst?
Uh-huh. There was a lot of stuff on Mill Street
he got. In fact, I think the last of it it was
all on Mill Street.
And do you recall that that went to
Mr. Kamiewicki?
I believe it did.
You testified last time that there was an instance
or instances when drums fell into the river?
Yeah, some rolled into the river.
Did you actually observe that yourself, or was
that information --
I saw the drums.
Did you see the drums when they were hauled out of
the river -- you didn't see them actually fall
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into the river, did you?
No, I didn't see them fall into the river.
You saw them hauled out?
Uh-huh.
Do you remember seeing them hauled out or after
you saw them hauled out?
I don't remember.
But you did see the drums after they were hauled
out?
I know I did. I saw some of the drums, anyway.
How many drums were there, if you can recall?
I don't recall. Actually, it must have been six
or eight, maybe more, I'm not sure.
You testified last time that there were drums of
various types of materials stored out back, is
that right?
Uh-huh.
Do you know what was in the drums that fell in the
river?
Well, some were pyranol drums, I know, because
they were right down there, right to the river.
When you say "they were right down there, right to
the river," what do you mean?
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Well, that's when they filled the yard in, went
right to the river.
They were close to the river?
Yeah.
They were stored close to the river?
Yeah.
Okay. Other than that, is there any other reason
why you believe that they were pyranol drums that
fell in the river?
Well, no, not really. It may have been something
other than pyranol, too.
You also mentioned there were empties stored back
along the river, too, didn't you?
Yeah.
Do you know one way or another whether the drums
that fell in the river were empties or fulls?
Well, where they were, I would have said they were
full ones or partially full, anyway.
But you only saw the drums after they had been
brought out of the river, is that correct?
Yeah — well, I don't know. I don't remember
whether I saw them in the river or not; I may
have. I don't recall that I did.
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You don't know where the drums were before they
fell into the river, do you?
I imagine near the riverbank.
Right, but you don't know where along the
riverbank, is that correct?
Well, they were in the area where the pyranol was.
And the last time we were together, didn't you say
empties were also stored along the river?
Well, the empties were, yeah, but they were
usually stored down the other way or up the other
way.
Along the river?
Well, yeah, in that -- well, at different times in
the life of the company they stacked them
different places, too, so.
What I'm really getting at is do you have any
personal knowledge whether the drums that fell in
the river, first of all, were empty or full?
I have no personal knowledge of it, but from where
they were found and things, I considered they were
probably full ones. And when we got them from the
rive.r, they was rusted out. They was all shot.
Say that again.
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They rusted out.
They rusted out after they were in the river?
I would say so, yeah.
Because they got wet?
Yeah.
When you saw them, they were on the bank having
been pulled out of the river, is that right?
I think I saw them taking it out of the river. I
wasn't doing it. I wasn't taking them out of the
river, but I think I remember seeing them do it,
standing there watching them out there hooking
chains on them and things to pull them out.
Did anyone ever tell you what if anything had been
in them before they went into the river?
I don't think anybody told me, no.
So the first time you saw them they were in the
river, is that right?
Well, I probably saw them before they went in the
river, but I saw them in the river.
And you don't know from what part of the plant
area along the bank precisely they came from, is
that right? ,
Well, from where they were in the river, I would
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say they came from the area right in front there
where — because I don't believe they floated down
the river much. Of course if they was empty
barrels, they might float, but.
I'm showing you Exhibit 2, and I see you brought
your own pen this time. Could you mark where in
the river you saw the drums being fished out.
I would say right in that area right through
there.
Can you put an asterisk or something like — can
you draw an asterisk or something in that box so
that it will be recognizable later on. Put an X
there. It doesn't matter what you do.
Okay. And Mr. Hooper has drawn an X in the
upper left-hand corner of a box that's right
behind the area where he had previously drawn the
first pyranol drums.
The river flows the direction of the arrows,
does it not?
Yes.
And you had marked the last time we were here that
there was an area of empty drums along the river
right under the U and the H of Souhegan?
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Yeah, well, they used to pile — at the last of
it, anyway — the trouble is they piled drums
different times at different places. So the last
of it they piled — they had drums along here and
along here, too, empties, and you had -- you could
go between them. One side was good drums and
drums that could be used for certain things, and
the other side was old, resin drums that was just
good for resins.
But you did testify last time that it was the
practice of piling empty drums along the riverbank
just upstream from where you saw the drums being
fished out?
Yeah, you're right, but the time that the drums
were fished out here, I don't know as they piled
any drums up here then. I'm trying to think
because this was the last part of the yard that
was filled in and --
Well, when did you see the drums being fished out,
can you —
Oh, it would have been late '60s because I
remember the guy who fished them out, and I was
thinking when he worked there.
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And hadn't the part of the property where you've
marked empty drums been filled in by then?
That's what I'm trying to decide. I don't know.
You see this part down in here was the last that
was filled in.
Right, and wasn't that done in the '60s?
This so far through here would have been, but I'm
not sure what year that would have been done.
That was the last that was filled in. I know that
the same guy who fished the barrels out here
worked on this cutting the trees and stuff before
it was filled in, I remember that, and —
But you don't remember whether he cut the trees
before he fished out the drums?
-- and he only worked there a few years, so.
Let me just ask you a question on a different
subject before I forget because I didn't write it
down in my notes and I'm likely to forget
otherwise.
You testified last time there was an old
dump that was once operated on part of the
property that became —
That was originally the Milford town dump, it was
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called.
If you told us before, forgive me, but I don't
remember that you did, what part of the property
that is shown in Exhibit 2 was the scene of the
old dump?
Well, I don't know. I would say it was all
through here, as I understand it. When they dug
here, this building here, they dug up tin cans,
bottles, automobile fenders and one thing or
another. And all through here, if they ever dug
up anything, they dug up parts of the old dump,
so.
The reporter doesn't know where you're gesturing,
so we have to refer to the diagram to make it
clear on the record.
You had said, I thought, correct me if I'm
wrong, that the addition number two was built on
the site of the old dump, is that right, the area
that you've marked addition two?
Yeah.
Is the area that you marked the words "dust
control" part of the area of th/s old dump?
I would say so. I believe the dump started from
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the street to the river, pret' near.
So it would have covered the area where you've
marked dust control to the area where you've
marked first pyranol drums?
Yeah.
Did it also include the area where you've marked
paint factory?
Yes.
And how about the area where you've marked empty
and full drums?
Yeah.
And how about where you've marked thinner?
It very well could have, but I would say more in
this area.
I take it your recollection — now we're going
back to your youth, is that right —
That's right.
— when the dump stopped being used?
I think in the '40s sometime, for the — I worked
on a chicken farm for awhile. Mr. Fletcher owned
the chicken farm, and we took manure to that dump.
That was before he ever owned any of this, and we
took manure to the dump and talked to — he was
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the medical -- what was it they called him?
Anyway, he wrote us a very nice letter, stop us
from doing it, and we found a farm that we could
take it to after that.
Did local industry use that dump, too?
Everybody did, I think, as far as I know.
There's now a different municipal dump. Are you
familiar with that?
Yeah, and there was one in between from the time
they used this one until the one they have now.
There was another place they dumped on in an old
quarry hole off Mont Vernon Road.
Do you recall when the present dump went into
operation?
Not really. It must have been the '50s somewhere,
I'm not sure.
So they had the other one, the interim dump, was
used for a relatively short period of time?
Yeah, that wasn't used too long. Too dangerous,
afraid people fall into the quarry or something.
Was the dump that was on the Fletcher property in
use during the time that the car dealership was
there?
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I suspect it was, but I don't know for sure.
Back during the time period when that dump was
being used as the town dump, were there any other
town dumps that you were aware of that were
probably being used at the time?
Not to my knowledge. Original town dump was up on
North Street or up in that area, they tell me.
That was before this one came into being. Now,
what year this one came into being, I don't know.
You mentioned a product last time called
Gilsonite.
Uh-huh.
Can you tell us what Gilsonite is?
Well, it was a hard, black material. It was like
it was poured into drums when it was hot or
something. The drums, I recall, were the thin
type of drum. He brought in -- well, I don't know
now how much of it it was. It was two or three or
four trailer truck loads of it, anyway.
Do you know where it came from?
No, I don't.
Was it scrap material, as he purchased it? In
other words, had it been used previously for some
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purpose?
Not to my knowledge. I don't even remember where
it came from. I remember it coining in and they
had big piles of it back there.
And there was some process that was then
undertaken in order to break it down?
Right.
Make it into a semi liquid form?
Made into a liquid form.
Could you describe the process that was used to
accomplish that?
I didn't work on that very much.
Did you actually see it?
Yeah, but I know what happened because the first
of it we broke it down in the shop, a few drums,
to see if we could do it, and then he put the
machinery out back and they did it out there. It
had to be broken down with VMP solvent, nothing
else — well, I say nothing else that we had would
break it down, and once you got it broke down
into -- of course they heat it up, mixed between
the heat and the solvent, it would break down to a
liquid state.
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Once we got it broke down, we had barrels
and barrels and barrels of old, dirty thinner.
Well, after you got it broke down with the VMP,
then you could add the old thinner to it and it
would go into it and bring it to the viscosity,
whatever you want it, and then he would drum it
up. I think he sold some of it in five—gallon
cans but most of it in drums.
Which part of the property was it mixed on?
Well, that was mixed before this building was
built.
That's addition number two?
Yeah. And this isn't really drawn to scale, but I
would say right back in here somewhere.
You're pointing to the upper right-hand corner of
addition number two shown on Exhibit 2?
Right in through there. It was behind this
building.
Behind the original building?
Yeah, and he set up a mixer out there.
So it was right along the street?
It was in back of the building, actually. The
street was here.
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Right.
And it was right near the edge of this building, I
remember that.
So it was on the western end and behind the
original building?
Yeah, and they put the mixer out there and they
would break it down there with the VMP, and then
they would add the old thinner or whatever they
were going to put into it.
You were asked some questions the last time where
the old thinner came from, and I gather some of it
was purchased as scrap, is that right?
Yes, we had a lot of old thinner we made, and of
course we sold a lot of paint. Cleaning the
tanks, one thing or another, we had accumulated a
lot of it. And I think some was left there from
the old paint company before he owned the place,
and of course this is mixed thinner. It would be
Xylol, mineral spirits, VMP, whatever we'd used to
clean tanks with or whatever we used it for and
drummed it up, we had a lot of it there.
And of course he wanted to get rid of it
financially somehow, so he got this Gilsonite and
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he got onto the idea that he could use up the old
thinner that way, which he did. And it got to the
point where the old thinner was just about
depleted and we still had some Gilsonite left, so,
as I recall, he did buy some old, scrap thinner
from another paint factory or two and used it.
But after we got done — after — after the
Gilsonite was all gone, he never bought any more
Gilsonite.
And I don't remember whether I asked you this, but
do you remember the names of the companies from
which you bought the used thinner?
Not really. I don't know, he used to deal back
and forth once in a while with Bradley
Laboratories over in Brattleboro, Vermont, and I
know he bought some tanks from Packard Paint.
Where was Packard Paint located?
I went there once. It was in Alstead. I think I
went there once a long, long time ago to get a
tank .
An empty tank?
Yeah, it was an empty tank.
MR. LAMBERT: Take a short recess.
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(Recess.}
Last time you mentioned a company called American
Alkyd, and said you had gone there and picked up
used resin or scrap resin?
Well, they were resin manufacturers and went down
there and picked up — well, I don't know whether
it was — I won't say it was used resin, but
off-grade resin or something on some of the
things.
That was my question, was that scrap or surplus or
something like that?
Well, I really don't know, but he did a lot of
business with American Alkyd, and they shipped a
lot of stuff in, and he also had trailer trucks
come in from American Alkyd for resin. And they
had a fiberglass business of some sort going
sometime, and I don't know whether they didn't pay
off or what happened, but he bought a lot of stuff
from that fiberglass business.
Going back to the resins for a second, do you know
whether he bought resin, whether it was used or
not used, from them on more than one occasion?
Were they a regular supplier?
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Oh, they were a regular supplier for quite a few
years.
Do you know whether some of the products they
supplied were plain, raw material that had been
manufactured and was purchased by Fletcher's in
order to be used in the processes of making paint?
Yeah, that's what it was used in.
But was some of it definitely good, clean raw
material that had never been used?
Yes.
Is it your recollection that some of it was
material that had been scrapped or was off spec
or —
Well, I think there was some off spec that came a
few times from there. There was some dark, dark
resin. I think it was off spec. It got burnt in
the process of manufacturing or something.
Was that a one-time event, or was that something
that was repetitive?
No, I think he got it several times, off-grade
material from there, but he got a lot of first
class material from there, too.
Where was it located?
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Carlstad, New Jersey. I went down there twice, I
think.
Did it have any other name besides American Alkyd
that you were familiar with?
Mr. Hauck, H —
How do you think you might spell it, H-o-u-k?
No, I think it was H -- boy, H-a-u-c-k or
something. I don't know offhand.
Do you remember where in Carlstad it was?
I don't remember the street address. It was a
long time ago I went down there.
Can you remember roughly when it was that you went
there?
I would say back in the late '60s, maybe, early
'70s, maybe, I'm not sure.
You testified last time that the material you
picked up there was broken down with thinners?
Some of it was. What was the fiberglass stuff,
was broke down with thinner that was a solid
state.
Whereabouts did that occur on the property?
I think most of that was inside. I think we did
that in cold winter months when there wasn't as
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much paint being made, getting it ready for spring
to use. We used a lot of that in traffic paint.
I asked you about Rohm & Haas the last time.
Yes.
And I don't think I asked you whether or not there
was anybody at Rohm & Haas that you remember
actually dealing with, any individual?
I remember a salesman from Rohm & Haas. I was
trying to think of his name. He used to come. I
knew his name, too. He used to come to Milford
quite often.
Do you have a recollection that material was
purchased from Rohm & Haas that was other than raw
material?
No. As far as I remember, it was latex vehicles
and resins.
I asked you last time about something called an
emulsion, scrap emulsion.
Yeah, they called latex vehicles were called
emulsions. He bought scrap ones, too.
Did he buy them from Rohm & Haas?
He may have. He bough,t a lot of good stuff from
Rohm & Haas — I don't remember too much. I think
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he did once, though, I think he did.
What was scrap emulsion used for?
Making paint.
Did it have to be processed before it could be
used to make paint?
Not that I recall; it was latex emulsion.
Last time, in the course of answering questions,
you mentioned a number of properties that
Mr. Fletcher or Mr. Fletcher's corporations owned
or controlled. Besides the Paint Works, you
mentioned that he owned a building in Littleton,
is that right?
Uh-huh.
Which building was that?
Littleton Hardware. He bought Littleton Hardware,
and he owned the complete building, and he also
owned the building that was in back of it.
Did he ever sell that off during the time that you
were working with him?
Yes.
You also mentioned a building or buildings in
Ashland?
Yeah, that was an old paper mill he bought.
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Was that something that was still owned by him or
by his family or by one of his companies when you
last had dealings with him or was that sold off?
I don't know. I think it was all sold before he
died, I think. He sold piecemeal. Like there was
an old railroad station there plus several other
buildings, and I know he did a lot of work on one
of the buildings on the roof and things.
He sold — the paper-making machinery went
to Mexico, I believe it was. There was a bunch of
Mexicans up there took it out. He never
manufactured any paper there.
How about the Contoocook Valley Paper Company, did
he own that property?
Yes, in Henniker.
Did he still own that at the end, to your
knowledge, at his end?
Yes, I believe he did.
And you mentioned a creamery last time.
The old creamery was in Milford.
Did he still own that?
No, he sold that awhile before.
What property did Mr. Fletcher or his companies
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own or operate at the time that you last had
contact with him?
Well, he had — as I understand it, the store
buildings and things, one of them was in Mary's
name, some was in Great Fletcher Northern. I
don't know, he had them in several different
names; it wasn't all —
I understand that. I'm trying to understand what
it was that was owned in any of those names at the
time.
At the time he died?
At the time he died.
Well, there was the Salem store in Salem,
New Hampshire.
Whose name was that in, or you don't know? That's
fine.
I'm not sure.
Okay. What was the store used for?
Sale of paint and also a tire company, rented part
of the building.
Do you know the address or the street?
I used to know it,, but I can't tell you what the
street is now.
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Was it a business called Fletcher's?
The paint store was, and then there was a tire
company. And the last time I went down by there,
not too long ago, you could look right up from
Route 28 and see the building. The tire company
is still there, but I think there's a sporting
good company where the Fletcher Paint was.
What other businesses did Fletcher's Paint own?
He owned a store in Hampton right on Route 1,
Lafayette Highway, I think they call it. They
still owned that when I got done there, but it was
in the process — people were looking at it to buy
it. Some furniture store wanted to buy it. I
guess they bought it because I know it closed up
shortly thereafter.
The Salem store closed before I got done and
the Hampton store, and then the Laconia store and
the house in Laconia beside it. I was just up by
there a short time ago, and I was surprised to see
the building is completely gone now and there's a
Kentucky Fried Chicken place gone in there.
And then he owned a little one he sold
before he died. The Woodsville store he had.
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That was the old railroad station, big railroad
station that he made over into a store. He still
owned that when he died.
What is that called?
Woodsville, New Hampshire.
What kind of building was --
It was an old railroad station, but it was a big,
big building three stories high. Of course there
used to be a railroad junction there. And then he
owned a store in Lebanon.
Do you know in what name the Woodsville,
New Hampshire property was owned?
I'm not sure. I think I've heard, too, but some
of it was under Fletcher Northern. Mary Fletcher
owned one of the stores, I think, one of the
buildings. It was in her name.
Did you consider Mr. Fletcher to be a wealthy man
during the time you were working for him?
Well, not really, but I think he made a darn
good — he did good back in the '60s. I would say
he did the best '60s, maybe early '70s because we
put out one heck of a slew of paint.
Were the finances of the business something that
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the employees talked about? Did employees have a
sense, for example, if the business was doing well
or not doing well?
Well, I think we did, yes, I think we thought the
business was doing well.
In the '60s and early '70s?
Yeah, back along that area. Of course in the '50s
it took awhile to get it going.
How about in the later '70s and early '80s?
It went downhill.
Did the amount of paint produced decline?
Yes.
The number of employees decline?
Yes.
Did Mr. Fletcher invest money in any ways that you
were aware of?
Other than the company?
Other than the company.
I don't know.
Did he have a personal lawyer?
He had lawyers; I don't know whether they were
personal or not.
Do you remember who they were?
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Enright in Milford, George Nelson, of course
he's -- I think he's dead now, I think.
Was there a Mr. Enright?
Yeah.
First name?
John, I think.
He's in Milford?
I'm not sure if his name is John or not, either,
but it's Enright, anyway. And then there was
Robert Rowe, but I don't know whether they did
much with him before he died or not, I'm not sure.
I know Mary had a lot to do with him. I can't
think of anybody else offhand. Nelson I know he
had for a long time, but Nelson — I'm pretty sure
he's dead now.
When was your last dealings with GE? Let me
rephrase that. Was the last time you spoke with
anybody from GE the last time you went out to pick
up pyranol?
As far as I recall, yes.
Apart from the pickups that you did at GE over the
period of years, did you have any other dealings
with GE of any sort? Have you had any other
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dealings with GE of any sort?
Not that I can think of.
When were you first contacted by EPA or the United
States or somebody working for them in connection
with Milford?
Well, the first time I was personally contacted
was with Mr. Fastoso. He called one day and
wanted to come and talk with me about it.
Do you remember when that was?
Not really; I would say in the spring a year ago.
I'm not sure. Maybe it was more than that. I'm
not sure.
The affidavit that was marked as an exhibit at
your deposition last time is dated August 29,
1991. So —
That could be.
That was the end of August. So had you spoke with
Mr. Fastoso a number of times before you signed
the affidavit?
Yes, he had been there — well, I was going to say
twice, but I'm not sure; once, anyway.
Before the affidavit was signed?
Yeah.
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Do you remember how long you talked with him for?
Oh, I talked with him for a long time, all
afternoon long.
Did you speak with him a second time before the
affidavit was signed?
That's what I'm trying to remember, almost think I
did, but I'm not sure.
Did you speak with anybody else from EPA or from
the United States prior to the time you testified
at your deposition?
I don't think so.
Did you speak with Mr. Fastoso between the time
you signed the affidavit and your deposition?
Yes, I think he came once after that. He came
this last winter. I can't tell you when it was.
Did he ask you more questions?
Yeah, he asked questions.
Did he give you anything to sign or to review the
second time around?
I think that's the only thing I signed.
Did he show you any documents?
Well, he showed me some pictures of things.
Did he show you any documents that were different
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from pictures?
He showed me some things, the court action, the
bills that Fletcher's hadn't paid. I know one of
them was on the furnace that they bought that
time, the boiler. Apparently the company — Webb
they bought it from down in Merrimack. Apparently
Webb sued them to get the money or something. He
showed me that. He showed me a few things. I
can't think of what they all were now.
Did he ask you questions about whether other
companies might have caused contamination in the
area?
I think he mentioned that he wanted to know what
other companies were in the area and what might
have .
Did you give him any information on that?
Well, I think I mentioned that the old Duff
Company was over there, furniture manufacturers.
Of course they went out of business quite awhile
ago, but there's been other people since. Kinzee
was in there, and I also mentioned the gas
stations and things.
Do you know how long the gas stations have been
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where they are, across from the —
The Gulf station was originally a garage over
there, was a Dodge and Plymouth agency. I guess
it was a Chevy way, way back, and they tore that
building down, the Gulf people bought it and tore
it down and put that filling station there.
How long has the filling station been there?
I don't remember when they did it, but I can't
tell you what year it would have been. It must
have been back in the late '60s, early '70s. I
don't know.
Okay. It was after you went to work at
Fletcher's?
Yeah, yeah, because I remember going over to the
garage when it was still there.
Is there another gas station across the street now
from the Elm Street plant?
Yeah.
What station is that?
Tulsa. There was a gas station there long before
Fletcher ever went over there. Daniels used to
run the station there, sold Jenney gas there. For
years I used to go there myself and get gas,
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and that was before Fletcher ever owned this
place.
So this would have been sometime prior to 1950?
Yeah. I don't know when Daniels put gas in there.
How do you spell Daniels?
D-a-n-i-e-1-s.
Was he the operator?
Yeah, Harris Daniels and his brother. I think
Harris owned the building, I think, but his
brother was in there with him.
What kind of gas did they sell?
Well, he sold Jenney for a long time, and then
they sold Sunoco, I think, for awhile there, and
then they sold out to -- Daniels sold out to
Draper. Of course Draper was a big Mobil man, and
they had Tulsa there for a while, Tulsa gas.
Also, Daniels sold fuel oil, kerosene fuel
oil, and they had big tanks out behind the
building there where they used to load the trucks
and things there, two or three oil trucks,
delivered oil to homes and businesses and whoever
would buy it, I suppose. ,
Did Mr. Fastoso give you any suggestions or
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directions as to how to deal with others who might
come asking questions?
No, I don't think he did.
Did he discourage you from speaking with
representatives from General Electric?
I don't recall that he did. I haven't seen any —
I haven't seen any to talk with, anyway, unless
it's you.
A couple of people from my office called you up
before your deposition and asked if we could talk
with you before.
That's right, the young lady that was here with
you last time.
Amy?
I guess that was her name, that's right.
And a fellow named Jim Sullivan, I think he might
have called you up on the phone and asked if we
could talk to you.
I don't remember him, but Amy, she called twice, I
think.
Right.
I don't know that there was a man that called. I
think —
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Was there any particular reason why you didn't
want to speak to Amy before the deposition?
I don't think there was any really good reason. I
just thought we was coming up here and I mentioned
that to her, and I said I understood that GE
representatives or lawyers or whoever would be
here, so why didn't we wait. But I don't think
Mr. Fastoso told me not to talk with you.
Fine.
In fact, I told him that you had called. He
called about something. I told him that I had
heard from you or from the girl there, and he
said — I think he said I could talk with you if I
wanted to but I didn't have to.
Good for him, okay.
I believe he did say that I could talk with you,
but it was up to me, and I didn't do it. Maybe I
should have, I don't know.
I appreciate your talking to us now.
MR. LAMBERT: I have no further questions.
THE WITNESS: Well, I said that I would talk
up here. There was one or two other things that I
told Mr. Fastoso that you haven't asked me about.
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BY MR. LAMBERT: I forgot, and what were they?
Well, they had a gasoline leakage across the
street once. And I had the job of going down and
checking the furnace in the paint factory, and I
went to go down there one morning and of course
had to go into the cellar to do it and I got down
there — whoa, the smell. And I said, "What the
heck is going on here?" I never smelled this
before. And this was when Mr. Fletcher was still
alive so — and he was in his office.
So I went and talked to him. I said, "You
got an odor down cellar." Well, I surmised what
it was. Of course he was so lame he couldn't get
down cellar, anyway, very good because he had a
prablem going up and down stairs, but he came to
the head of the stairs and used his nose to sniff
it.
Well, he said the same time thing I did,
it's gasoline. They had a gas leak over at the
station across the street and it swept the gas
down the drain.
Which station had the leak?
Well, it's Draper now -- I guess it was Draper
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then, and it smelled pretty strong down there.
Do you remember when that was?
Well, he was pretty well used up then, but he
wasn't so bad that he could get around. So I'd
say back in the '70s somewhere.
And was there something else that you told
Mr. Fastoso that you haven't told us?
I don't know. Of course he asked about the old
drain that went under the building and things.
You haven't mentioned that.
Was there an access to the drain from the plant?
Yes. At one time the drain collapsed. This was
before this building was built the drain
collapsed. I went to go down cellar one day and
there was about a foot of water in the cellar.
Well, I guess it wasn't a foot, but it was seven
or eight inches.
Did you tell us the last time that the drain was
actually extended when the property was filled in?
Yes, and the drain had collapsed out back there
and closed the water off so it couldn't go through
it so it was backing up into the cellar.
Now, that's the drain now that they're
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hollering so much that any time it rains or they
have a lot of water runoff there's an oily slick
on the river where it drains into the river.
Coming down the ditch?
Coming out of that from somewhere.
Somewhere?
Whether it's pyranol or whether it's something
else, I don't know.
Okay. I think you mentioned that the last time.
MR. LAMBERT: I'm finished.
EXAMINATION
BY MS. WITT:
Q Okay. Mr. Hooper, I just want to follow-up on a
couple of things.
Before the deposition started this morning,
you mentioned that you had recalled something
about an area that I was questioning you on at the
last deposition, which was Mr. Nutter had
testified that he used to take barrels of some
black liquid up to Contoocook Valley Paper.
A Uh-huh.
Q Have you recalled something more about that?
A I think I know what it is now. I couldn't think
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at the time, but after I thought it out for a
while, for quite a while we used to make
dispersions for the paper mill, and it would be in
drums and we used to do a lot of black. In other
words, it was mixed in and there was some
chemicals put in there, chemicals they used, but
it was for the paper mill. We made it.
Now, it would have gone up there in drums,
and that was black. Boy, that was real black.
What are dispersions?
Well, they were stuff that we mixed up on the
machinery and ground it, made it into an emulsion,
solution, whatever you want to call it, and there
were drums of black. We did it a number of times,
and there would be several drums at a time, and
they were all taken to the paper mill. So I
presume that's what he was referring to.
Do you know what it was used for at the paper
mill?
Well, made black paper, even made red paper.
Do you know what the dispersions were made of?
I think the black was made with black iron oxide.
Do you know anything else that went into it
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besides the black iron oxide?
They sent some of their emulsions and things they
used up there down to — in the paper — we didn't
use in the paint company to mix this stuff on the
carbon black and lamp black; they could use the
mix up there. But the black iron oxide, it didn't
work out so good up there, but we could do it down
there and bring it into a solution for them.
Now, earlier in your testimony today you spoke
about the paint mixer that you took over for at
the factory. Who was that?
Earl Trow.
What was the last name?
Earl Trow, T-r-o-w. He's still alive, but he's
not in good shape. I say he's not. I haven't
seen him for quite a while, but what I hear he
isn't.
Is he still in the Milford area as far as you
know?
Yeah, he lives in Mont Vernon. In fact, his son
just died a short time ago.
And you said he was fired because he had mixed a
bunch of stain incorrectly?
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Well, what he did was, as I recall, we were
selling paint to the government then, to the Pease
Air Force Base, the big project that was going on
over there, and I forget now just how it was. One
of the colors took — it was burnt umber and raw
umber, and he used the wrong umber, anyway, and of
course it came up a different color from what it
was supposed to be by quite a ways and there was
quite a batch of it.
Do you know what was done with that stain?
Oh, I think it was sold. It was something that
could be sold, but it wasn't the color they wanted
for the base.
You also said that Mr. Fletcher made a lot of
other things other than paint at the Elm Street
site. You mentioned floor wax was one.
Uh-huh.
Can you recall anything else that he manufactured
there besides paints and floor wax?
Of course before he sold the duplicating supply
business, we made the duplicating fluid and the
stencils and things there, correction fluid. He
made floor wax, oh, gosh, wallpaper coaters,
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liquid soap.
Anything else?
He made some mimeograph ink, but we didn't make
any at that site, I don't think. I think that was
over at the other site we made that. He did sell
it after that, but he bought it all in.
Is there anything else?
Gosh, I can't think of anything.
The driveway sealer, was that one of those —
Well, the driveway sealer, yeah, made a lot of
that out of the Gilsonite.
When Fletcher's first received pyranol from GE,
the truck loads that came in, to your knowledge,
did Mr. Fletcher have a plan for that material,
what it was to be used for?
I doubt it. I'm not sure, but I don't think so.
I just think he thought he could resell it to
somebody, could find a use for it, that's what I
think. Of course this is a long time ago.
What do you base that on?
Well, I base it on other things that he bought,
things that he thought that he could get rid of it
somewhere, there was a use for it.
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Did he do things like that, just go out and buy
things that he didn't know what he ultimately
would do with but hoped that he would find a use
for?
Yes.
And that was your impression what was happening
with —
That was my impression. Sometimes he got stuck
and a lot of times he made money, so.
Now, you indicated that on some occasions while
Mr. Metevier was in charge at the GE salvage
operation that you would get materials that you
wouldn't have to pay for, is that right?
Uh-huh.
How frequently did that occur?
Gosh, I don't know now. We were supposed to keep
track of the drums that were — or whoever checked
them in was supposed to keep track of the drums
that were not pyranol or was a little pyranol or
was so little pyranol we couldn't really use them,
and there were a lot of drums. When we first
Started going out, he'd say take every drum.
There was a lot of drums sometimes would be a half
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full, sometimes a quarter full, sometimes
two-thirds full, another one overloaded.
So they were supposed to keep track of that,
how full the drums were. And as I recall,
Mr. Fletcher would call Metevier and let him know
off and on about how many drums we got that we
couldn't use or how many drums was half full or
whatever, and he had this deal with him and he
would take care of it.
Well, trying to put a quantity on this, was this
something that would happen once in a great while
that you would get a shipment that you wouldn't
pay for, maybe once a year?
Oh, I think it was a little more than that.
Twice a year?
I really don't know now, but I'd say a couple
times a year, maybe more than that, I don't know.
I think Metevier used to tell me when this was
happening, tell me on the side, but I would still
get the paperwork. If I got stopped or anything
going out through the yard or whatever, I suppose
I would have to have let them know Fletcher's so
they could call up Metevier to pass the papers in,
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checked on roe, but I never got stopped, so.
I don't know what Metevier did with the
papers afterwards, I have no idea, whether he
threw them in the wastebasket or in his pocket and
took them home or what.
Now, how frequently — you said before that you
got drums that were not pyranol from GE?
Uh-huh.
How frequently would that happen?
Well, there was a chance of it on every load, but
I really don't know now really how frequently it
did happen or how fast they piled up.
Was it the kind of thing that would happen more
frequently than that?
More frequently than that. GE wasn't very good
housekeepers and they didn't always mark the drums
right.
When you would get something that wasn't pyranol,
do you have any knowledge as to whether or not GE
ever wanted it back?
Not to my knowledge. It was all scrap stuff,
anyway. I say it was all scrap stuff. We did get
a few good drums of Tri-Clean-D a few times, but I
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mean most of it was scrap stuff.
Of the drums that were not pyranol that you got
from GE, did you ever have any knowledge as to
what they were?
Well, I don't think ~L knew what a lot of them
were, but a lot of this stuff I didn't check in,
either, so I didn't know.
Did you ever find out what any of it was?
Well, a lot of it was Tri-Clean-D, and it was the
cleaners they use in cleaning equipment and
things.
It was used Tri-Clean-D, is that right?
Yeah, used. There may have been other chemicals
in there, too, probably were, that I wasn't
familiar with.
Was this used Tri—Clean-D that was mixed with
pyranol, or was it just used Tri-Clean-D apart
from the pyranol?
There may have been something, some that didn't
have any pyranol in it, I don't know for sure,
but -- I know there was some if it had pyranol in
it. It had very little.
Apart from Mr. Metevier, do you recall having any
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conversations with any GE employees about the free
shipments of material?
No, I don't think I ever did, but they stopped
when Mr. Metevier left that department, when he
was —
Did you ever have any conversations with anybody
at GE about the drums that were not pyranol?
Well, I don't remember any specific — yeah, I
talked with Mr. Metevier about it, I think. Oh, I
may have mentioned it to the guys that worked
there, I won't say that I didn't, but I don't
remember any specific times, really.
Did you ever have any conversations that made you
believe GE knew that there were drums that did not
contain pyranol that were being shipped?
MR. LAMBERT: Could I listen to that again,
please, the question.
(Question read.)
MR. LAMBERT: Conversations with GE?
MS. WITT: Yes.
MR. LAMBERT: Answer it.
i THE WITNESS: Well, I had conversations with
Mr. Metevier, I think, about some of the stuff was
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not completely pyranol. Well, I may have
mentioned it to the guys that worked on the docks
there. I don't recall that I really did, either,
but I very well could have.
I may be repeating myself here; if I am, please
forgive me. You mentioned that you would get
drums that contained cleaner. Was that cleaner
and pyranol mixed in one drum, or would there be
separate drums of just cleaner?
Well, we got a few drums of good cleaner, I know
that. But a lot of the salvage stuff was mostly
cleaner, but it's possible it had a little pyranol
in it where they cleaned the tanks --
Okay.
— or their equipment or whatever they call them.
Did you ever have any conversations with GE
employees about what had been done with similar
scrap pyranol prior to the time Fletcher Paint
began to purchase it?
Yes.
And what was that?
It's kind of vague in my mind, though.
What do you recall?
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It seems to me as though they told me that there
had been some taken somewhere up at Ft. Ann or
somewhere, it seems to me, but that's a long time
ago and I'm not sure of it, either, but something
about Ft. Ann, I know that. That's a town that's
up beyond there.
Did they indicate that it had been sold to someone
or what do you recall?
Well, I always was under the impression that GE
was darn glad to get rid of the stuff, that they
were having a problem finding anybody to take it
and they were having to get rid of it somehow
themselves. And then we came along or
Mr. Fletcher came along, saw the chance to sell it
to him.
What gave you the impression that GE was glad to
get rid of the material?
Well, I think it was from things that people out
there said, not necessarily Metevier, but fellows
that worked there helped load the truck and one
thing or another.
Do you recall anything specific that lead you to
this conclusion?
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Well, I don't remember anything specific, but I
think at the time I thought that. There may have
been something said that made me think it, I don't
know now. I do remember some mentioning of
something to do with Ft. Ann, I think it was.
Now, whether they were taking some of it up
there and disposed of it or not, I don't know.
Maybe I knew at the time, but if I —
Do you recall ever having any discussions with GE
employees about what was done with the pyranol
when it was brought back to Fletcher Paint?
They tried to find out, but I never told them what
we were doing with it, that I recall, anyway. We
weren't supposed to tell them anything;
Mr. Fletcher didn't want us to.
Did Mr. Fletcher ever tell you why he didn't want
you to tell them?
Well, I don't know as he specifically said why,
but I always surmised why.
And did Mr. Fletcher ever tell you specifically
why he wanted the markings on the drums
obliterated?
Well, I don't know. He had a -- he doesn't like
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to have people know where he did business and
where he got stuff and things, and of course he
was trying to sell it and I suppose anybody who
bought it he didn't want to know where he got it,
either. But, I don't know, he was funny that way,
that a lot of times stuff would come in and he'd
want all the markings taken off of it.
Now, a couple of times you mentioned that the
pyranol was mixed with Tri-Clean-D.
And possibly something else.
How did you know that it was mixed with
Tri-Clean-D?
Well, I don't know that we always knew. Sometimes
I guess we probably didn't know what else was in
it, but we'd know it wasn't completely pyranol.
What lead you to believe it was Tri-Clean-D?
Well, they had so much Tri-Clean-D around there in
drums and things, and I think they took — I think
some guys told me that's what they used to clean
equipment with.
You mentioned that occasionally at the GE plants
there would be spills on the floor of the truck,
particularly the metal-bottom truck, is that
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right?
Uh-huh, had a tendency to be slippery.
Was that cleaned up at GE or not?
No, cleaned up in Milford. :
In Milford?
The truck was supposed to be cleaned up after
every trip.
And I believe you testified earlier that it would
be washed out?
Uh-huh.
Did you ever participate in that directly, washing
out the truck?
I did a few times, but a lot of times I'd gone
home. The guy that was supposed to unload it was
supposed to do it.
On the occasions when you actually participated in
washing out the truck, what was done with the
water that was in the truck?
Just let it go on the ground.
Now, there was a washing place up on
Elm Street, but that wasn't there way back then,
but in later years we used to ,take the truck up
there and wash it out. It was one of these
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automatic things and had a wand thing, but back in
those days there was no truck washing place, car
washing place in town, so.
Now, that first group of drums that came from
General Electric, how long were those on the
property at Elm Street, to the best of your
recollection?
Well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure just when they
came. I would say they must have come sometime, I
would think, in '52, '53, maybe '54, I don't know,
along in there somewhere. And when we started
going to GE, which was in '57, I believe, when the
Russians sent the Sputnik up, most that was gone.
That's why he was getting anxious to buy some more
because he found out he could sell it.
So most of that initial truck loads were
gone, and it took him a year or two, I think, toV
really — before he got on to Webster Cement or it
took awhile, anyway. He didn't get them the next
day. And so I would say maybe some of them stayed
out there in the yard, gosh, I don't know, three,
maybe four, five, six years. I don't know
exactly, really.
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Going back to the drums that went into the river,
who was it who fished them out of the river?
Gosh, I've got his name right on the tip of my
tongue, but I can't say it. He's driving a truck
for UPS now. Why did you ask me that question? I
know the guy's name and I can't think of it.
Okay. Maybe it will come to you as I finish up
here.
His sister married Ricky Fletcher and they got
divorced.
Do you have any recollection of when that divorce
occurred?
I'd say — I don't know, maybe '83 or '4, maybe —
Pease, that was his last name, was Pease,
P-e-a-s-e. His first name is — I'm trying to
think of that now. He's a UPS truck driver now.
Does he still live in the Milford area?
He lives in Manchester. He drives a UPS truck all
around Londonderry and Derry way, or he was the
last I knew.
At the time the drums went into the river, do you
recall where the empty drums were stored at
Fletcher Paint?
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Not really.
Okay.
As I say, I've got here where the drums were
stored the last of it.
And there you're referring to Hooper Exhibit 2?
And they may have been stored there then, too.
I'm not sure.
Now, you indicated that that was the last area on
the property that was filled?
Filled in, yeah.
And some time was spent trying to establish when
that fill may have occurred. Do you recall
whether any filling was done after you had had
your gallbladder operation?
Oh, yeah, I had that in '70.
So further filling occurred on the property after
that?
Uh-huh. But this, a lot of it was filled in
before that, too, pretty sure.
Was the river originally closer in on the
property? I mean are there parts that are now dry
land that used to be part of the river?
I think so, yeah. I think the river came in more
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of a U shape. I know over here where the drain
comes in its filled in.
Did anybody from GE ever come to the Milford site?
Mr. Metevier.
When did he come?
Well, I remember him coming, oh, it must have been
in the '60s, first part of the '60s somewhere.
I'm just not sure when it was.
Why did he come, if you know?
Well, I could tell you the same thing I told
Mr. Fastoso, why I think he came or what I
surmised at the time.
Now, I never had proof of it. I may be
lying, but what I surmised at the time was
Mr. Metevier just bought a -- was in the process
of buying a brand new automobile or another car,
and I was under the impression that maybe — I was
never absolutely sure of it, but what I heard and
what I saw I had an idea that he came to get
financial assistance, but I could be wrong at
that, too. But I'm not going to bet a bottom
dollar on it because I could be wrong, but that's
what I surmised at the time.
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Did he come to the Elm Street site?
Yeah, I saw him there.
Do you recall speaking to him when he was there?
Yeah.
Do you recall any conversations?
Well, I know I talked with him about where he was
staying down Nashua, and he talked about going
around to — riding around seeing some of the
countryside in our area, and I talked with him out
in New York State after that about — he mentioned
different places he had gone when he was up in our
area. Never been up here before, he said.
Did he ask anything about the pyranol that had
been gotten from GE?
Oh, he asked about pyranol, I think, several
times.
Do you recall what he was asking?
One thing they always wanted to know was what we
was doing with it.
Did he ask that?
I think so. I don't remember precisely, but I
think so.
Do you recall what you may have told him?
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Oh, I told him I don't know what they was doing
with it or some such thing as that. I don't
remember for sure. I remember being told not to
tell him out there.
Was that when he was — was that the Elm Street
site, were you told specifically at that time not
to tell him what was being done with it?
I think I was told that before that, but he did
come to Milford once.
Do you recall how long that was that he was there?
I don't know. He stayed a couple days, three
days. I don't know. Now, I know he went to
Manchester and looked around at different things.
Was that before or after he was transferred from
being the head of scrap and salvage?
No, that was before. He was in salvage then. It
was before he had been transferred to another
department.
Do you recall whether he was given any kind of
tour at the facility at Elm Street?
Yeah, I think he was shown around.
Was he shown where any of the drums were stored?
Well, if he was in the backyard, he would have
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seen them. So I imagine he did.
Do you recall if he asked specifically "Are any of
the pyraaol drums here?"
No, I don't recall him specifically asking.
Other than Mr. Metevier, did anybody from GE ever
come to the Elm Street site?
Not that I recall of. Well, I shouldn't say that.
I imagine they did, salesmen and things, because
we used to buy silicones and things from GE, and I
imagine salesmen came around once in a while or
something.
I wasn't completely clear. You were asked, and ~L
believe you also testified earlier at the last
deposition that pyranol or arochlor was used to a
small degree in paint manufacture?
Very small, small degree.
Was any of the GE pyranol ever used in paint
manufacture?
Yes, but very little, just a little bit went in.
I don't know, it was a gallon or a gallon and a
half or something into a 100 gallons of
rubber-based paint. And Mr. Fletcher had brought
in a drum of arochlor, and when that was gone, we
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said we needed more arochlor.
He said, "You got a whole load in the
backyard. Pick out a drum and use it." I think
he said it should be used all right, and he said,
"Pick out a drum and use it," but it was a very
small amount.
Now, I vaguely remember them trying to grind
pigment into it or something, but it didn't work.
Of course he was always trying something, anyway,
so.
To your knowledge, the intent in getting the
pyranol was not to make paint with it, was it?
No, to my knowledge, it wasn't.
MS. WITT: I don't have any further
questions.
MR. LAMBERT: I have a couple more. I'm
allowed to ask a few more questions here.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. LAMBERT:
Q I wanted to go back to the Tri-Clean-D again.
When I was asking you questions this morning, I
was asking you about what it was you were actually
able to observe when you went out to GE plants in
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New York, and I asked you about what it was people
told you about what was in the drums.
Uh-huh.
First of all, am I right that you never saw
Tri-Clean-D being put into any drums?
No.
And when I asked you earlier about what if
anything people had told you about what was in the
drums, you didn't tell me that someone had told
you that Tri-Clean-D was in the drums, is that
correct? In other words, no one told you there
was Tri-Clean-D in the drums?
Well, I think they may have mentioned it; I don't
know now.
You're not sure now one way or the other?
Well, I knew at the time. You're trying to find
out if they told me.
I'm trying to find out how you knew if there was
Tri-Clean-D in the drums.
Well, when they checked it in Milford, they told
me. I think I was told there was a possibility of
it because that's what they used to clean the
tanks with, was the salvage stuff, so.
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Who told you that GE said there was a possibility
of Tri-Clean-D in the drums?
Well, I think Mr. Fletcher said that some of it
would be contaminated with that.
Is whatever Mr. Fletcher told you the reason why
you believe there may be Tri-Clean-D in the drums?
Well, I think that was partly it. I think they
said out there. I think they told me that they
used it to clean their equipment with it and
things. That was part of the contamination of
some of their stuff.
That's what I was trying to learn before. What I
wanted to know was everything that you can
remember being told by GE people about what was in
the drums, and when I asked you before —
Well, that's a long time ago.
— and when I asked you before, you didn't mention
it.
Yeah.
And I want to go back over this again. Can you
say for sure that someone from GE told you there
was Tri-Clean-D in the drums, as opposed to
Mr. Fletcher telling you there might be
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Tri-Clean-D in the drums?
Well, I'm not really sure; they could have
mentioned it. I don't remember specifically, but.
And this goes back to the part of the question
what the drainings were that you referred to. You
had referred to drainings as being — as producing
material that went into drums. Do you recall
testifying to that?
Drainings?
I think that was the word that you used.
Well, I don't know what I used now, but.
Okay. Well, I asked you whether or not you had
been told that the process out there was to fill
capacitors overflowing.
I don't know about overflowing, but it could be.
And what I was asking was whether or not you were
told that that process, if in fact that was the
process, it would produce an overflow —
Uh-huh.
— which would then have to be dealt with in some
way, whether you were told that that was what was
put into the ,drums?
I don't remember them mentioning an overflow, but
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maybe they did.
Today, at least, can you recall any instance in
which you were told that material in the drums
included Tri-Clean-D, that is told someone, told
by someone at GE?
Well, I'm really not sure, but I think that was
mentioned as one of the — of course it was
salvage stuff, it was used stuff. So I think that
was mentioned, I think, as one of the things that
could be in it.
Can you recall whether it was mentioned by someone
at GE or by someone at Fletcher's?
I think both places.
Did you understand that drums of pyranol that
contained Tri-Clean-D were among the drums that
were sold then to Webster?
Was I told?
Yes.
Well, I vaguely remember Webster bringing back
some drums that was too thin that they didn't
want.
And those were then drums mixed with thicker
stuff?
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They were contaminated with something. I expect
it was Tri-Clean-D, maybe something else, I don't
know.
You testified you actually observed water in them,
too?
Yeah, a lot of the drums you opened up there would
be water on top.
And that water was drained off in the filtering
process?
Uh-huh, they didn't all have water in, but some of
them did.
Was Tri-Clean-D — I asked you if that was a
product you worked with yourself at Fletcher's,
and you said no.
No.
So if there had been a product present in the
drum, in addition to pyranol, you would not have
recognized it as Tri-Clean-D?
Well, I don't know as I would have; the chemist
might.
I remember them talking one time when I was
out there about in the wintertime they couldn't
salt their areas around their plant out there.
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they didn't allow the town to salt the roads or
the sidewalks or anything, and they had to — I
think somebody told me the way they made the
capacitors, and when they came inside, they had to
take their shoes off and something and leave them
and wear shoes that they only wore in there. If
they got any -- just took just a little bit of
salt and would contaminate a whole bunch of this
arochlor. It would make your capacitors corrode
inside.
With the salt?
Yeah.
You were asked a couple of minutes ago whether
Mr. Metevier asked about the pyranol drums when he
came to visit Milford. If he had looked at the
back lot where the drums were stored, he wouldn't
have been able to recognize the GE drums, anyway,
because they would have been painted over?
According to rights, they were supposed to have
been painted off.
MR. LAMBERT: I have no further questions.
Thank you.
MS. WITT: I just have one or two as a
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result of that. I promise that's the end
EXAMINATION
BY MS. WITT:
Q
A
When you describe pyranol as thin, are you
describing -- do you mean the drums that had water
on top?
No.
What do you mean?
I'm talking about pyranol that's been -- it's got
cleaner or something mixed into it, thinned it
out. Pyranol is thick stuff, very thick, and
it's —
So a drum that had some water on the top, would
that necessarily mean that what was below was
thick or thin, could it be either?
No, water wouldn't mix with it. Water came to the
top.
The fellow's name was Russell Pease.
MR. LAMBERT: If we stay here long enough,
you'll remember the names of his children, too.
THE WITNESS: Just thought of his name. I
don't know .where he lives now. The last time I
saw him he was in the process of buying a house, I
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forget where it was, somewhere in Manchester.
Just to clear up because I've gotten a little
confused, what did you understand to be the source
of the pyranol that — or the material that was
contained in the drums that you got from GE?
What was the source?
Yeah.
What do you mean, where they got the pyranol?
No.
No.
You indicated before that it was used.
Yeah. Well, most of it.
Okay. Most of it. Did you have an understanding
of how it had been used?
Well, it was used in capacitors. It was a cooling
lubricant or something.
Now, they made capacitors for hearing aids
and they made them -- I don't know whether it was
as big as this room or not, but they made them
pretty big.
Did you have any knowledge whether this was excess
pyranol that had overflown or was it something
else or both?
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Well, both, I guess, pyranol that had been in the
tanks when they cleaned them out, pyranol that
had, as he said, overflow, maybe — I don't know,
but that was something that was brought up there,
but I don't specifically remember it. They fill
them to overflowing, that could be.
And how did you come to this understanding of
where this pyranol or the material that was in the
drums had come from?
Well, usually talking to the fellows that worked
there, they would make remarks once in a while
about something.
MS. WITT: I have no further questions,
Mr. Hooper. Thank you.
MR. LAMBERT: I have one more now.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. LAMBERT:
Q Who told you that some of the pyranol was drained
from tanks?
A
Q
Well, I think the guys that worked there.
What kind of tanks did they say they had been
drained from?
Well, I suppose whatever they used in the
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manufacturing area, I don't know.
Can you recall that someone told you that it had
been drained from tanks, as opposed to the
drainings of what was left over when capacitors
were filled? I'm not trying to confuse you. I'm
trying to —
Well, they had to clean their equipment, is what I
understood it, and they used this cleaner to clean
their equipment; and when they did, of course,
there was some pyranol there.
Now, what I want to know is whether or not you're
making suppositions from what you were told as
opposed to someone told you that "We cleaned out
tanks or equipment that contained pyranol"?
I don't know as the guys there did it that I saw.
Well, that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom
of. The people that you saw weren't working?
No, they wasn't working in the factory — well,
the salvage area.
The salvage area?
Yeah.
Somebody else was in the area where the pyranol
was being used?
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Yeah.
And it isn't — no one at this point, at least,
has established that the people you were talking
to had any firsthand knowledge, and you are
professing that you don't remember some of the
details that you were told long ago. I'm trying
to figure out whether or not in the translation
here we're getting away from facts into
suppositions based upon secondhand information.
I think the guys from the salvage department went
to the other area to get it —
Right.
— and bring it to the salvage area, I think.
But you don't know whether those people actually
saw anything more than when they went to the other
area than drums, as opposed to —
I don't know. I don't remember now what they said
completely. I know they used to say things, but
it's so long ago that I don't remember all of it.
MR. LAMBERT: I have no further questions.
MS. WITT: Neither do I. Thank you very
much, Mr. Hooper. ,i
(The deposition was concluded at 12:35 p.m.) I
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(Deponent) .*
STATE OF
COUNTY OF , SS.
of
Subscribed and sworn to before me this
; _ , 19 _ .
day
Notary Public/Justice of the PeaceMy Commission Expires:
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C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Sandra de Vasconcellos, a Certified Shorthand
Reporter of the State of New Hampshire, do hereby certify
that the foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of
my stenographic notes of the deposition of
Wallace Hooper, who was first duly sworn, taken at the
place and on the date hereinbefore set forth.
I further certify that I am neither attorney nor
counsel for, nor related to or employed by any of the
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken,
and further that I am not a relative or employee of any
attorney or counsel employed in this case, nor am I
financially interested in this action.
•Sandra de Vasconcellos, CSR, RPR
DAVID R. JORDAN & ASSOCIATES