commonwealth of pennsylvania house of ...living with grandparents, and they are the children's...
TRANSCRIPT
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIAHOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
* * *HEARING OF THE HOUSECHILDREN AND YOUTH
COMMITTEE* * *
MAIN CAPITOL BUILDINGB-31 MAIN CAPITOL
HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 14, 20179:00 A.M.
BEFORE:
HONORABLE KATHARINE WATSON, MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN HONORABLE SCOTT CONKLIN, MINORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE MICHAEL CORRHONORABLE MATT DOWLINGHONORABLE MARCIA HAHNHONORABLE BRETT MILLERHONORABLE DAN MOULHONORABLE TOM MURTHONORABLE TEDD NESBITHONORABLE JACK RADERHONORABLE GREG ROTHMANHONORABLE RICK SACCONEHONORABLE TODD STEPHENSHONORABLE TARAH TOOHILHONORABLE VANESSA BROWNHONORABLE PAMELA DeLISSIOHONORABLE MICHAEL DRISCOLLHONORABLE MAUREEN MADDENHONORABLE JOANNA McCLINTONHONORABLE DAN MILLERHONORABLE MARK ROZZIHONORABLE JARED SOLOMON
Pennsylvania House of RepresentativesCommonwealth of Pennsylvania
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
BEFORE (continued):
COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT:
GREGORY GRASA,Executive Director Children & Youth,Republican Research
MEREDITH SCHULER,Legislative Administrative Assistant,Republican Caucus
LEDA LIPTON, ESQ.,Research Analyst
PHILIP FALVO,Executive Director, Democratic Caucus
JAMES MOSER,Legislative Assistant
VALERIE WHITNEY,Research Analyst
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
I N D E X
TESTIFIERS
* * *
NAME PAGE
BRIAN BORNMAN, ESQ.,EXECUTIVE DIRECTORPCYA........................................12
REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI.......................31
MRS. LOTTE POWELL..............................39
DEPUTY SECRETARY UTZ,DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES................57
DEPUTY SECRETARY MORRIS,OCDEL.......................................65
SUBMITTED WRITTEN TESTIMONY
* * *
(See submitted written testimony and handouts online.)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
4
P R O C E E D I N G S
* * *
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Good
morning to my colleagues, members of the
Children & Youth Committee. Good morning to
those of you in the audience. And indeed, some
of my colleagues are in the audience coming to
testify.
Indeed, this is the public hearing
convened by the House Children & Youth
Committee. I'm supposed to introduce myself. I
always feel stupid, but we will do that. All
right.
My name is Katharine Watson. I have the
very good fortune to have a job that I
particularly love, and that is being Chairman of
the House Children & Youth Committee, because
indeed, it lets me work in areas that I worked
in for years that I've always had an interest
in.
So I get to chair this meeting today,
which is good. I would remind you,
respectfully, would you please make sure that
your cell phones are turned -- I call it turn
them to stun. But in any event, make sure that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
5
there are no sounds coming out. The meeting is
to be recorded.
We will do our housekeeping to begin
with. We've welcomed you. We're glad you're
here. And I would suggest to you we have a
topic of great importance to discuss.
But Meredith, would you please take the
roll first?
We'll do all of the important stuff,
too.
(Whereupon, the roll call was taken.)
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: All right.
Let's begin with Chairman Conklin.
Something to say, please.
MINORITY CHAIRMAN CONKLIN: Thank you,
Chairman Watson. I want to thank everyone for
coming here today. It's very important. I want
to thank Eddie Day Pashinski for bringing this
forward.
But for those watching and those in the
audience, if you see people come and go, and if
you saw some of the folks aren't here, it's a
very busy legislative schedule right now. So
you'll see many members coming in and out, not
because they weren't here or because they're not
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
6
interested or they lose interest, it's just the
fact that they have many voting meetings going
on and many members sit on up to five or seven
different committees that they're on.
So I want to thank everyone for being
here.
Lady Chairwoman, the floor is yours.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Yes. Thank
you.
This morning, as I had stated, we're
going to continue the Committee's examination of
a growing family dynamic of grandparents who,
because of various life circumstances, are
raising their grandchildren. Currently, three
million children across the country now are
living with grandparents, and they are the
children's primary caregivers.
In Pennsylvania, back two years, but as
of 2015, there were an estimated 98,000
children, or about four percent of the children
in the Commonwealth, who were living with
grandparents who are their primary caregivers.
I would suggest to you that certainly in
light of the opioid epidemic and things that are
happening, that number has increased
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
7
dramatically. You could check with your own
Children & Youth agency and you would find that
to be true.
We've heard a lot of tragic stories
about grandparents who suddenly are thrust with
their grandchildren and they're going to have to
raise them because something has happened to
their own children and they can't do it or
they're just incapacitated, and they're, in some
cases, incarcerated and there's no opportunity
for them to participate in that child's growing
up.
Grandparents, what we know -- and I
would suggest to you that that number from 2015
was probably inaccurate to begin with because
grandparents, it seems, are very reluctant to
enter that formal child welfare system because
they don't just know that much about it and
they're of the belief that, you know, I can
manage things on my own, I don't take anything
from the government, or because they are so
afraid. They've heard stories, inaccurate, but
they've heard them, and they think they'll say,
oh, I'm too old, or something, and they'll take
the children away.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
8
They just think -- and in a lot of
cases, they are very embarrassed. They are
embarrassed by the fact that somehow their child
failed at being a parent for whatever reason.
They are stepping in. They'll do that, but they
don't want lots of people to know about it. So
they don't seek out, which I'm sure you'll hear,
some things that are available to them through
their Children & Youth agency.
Instead, they often struggle,
particularly financially, with providing for the
grandchildren under their care. Sadly, too,
they lack legal standing to make basic decisions
for their grandchildren, such as officially make
a medical decision or enrolling the child in
school.
And yet, you will hear that for them to
go and see a lawyer, they don't have the kind of
money that that would take. And I would ask
each of you to think. I look around and think,
okay, some of you are getting sort of close to
that retirement thing. And I'm sure a few of
you are even grandparents.
Stop and think that if you're preparing
for that time -- and you think you've prepared
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
9
enough -- no one, not the best financial advisor
you could find, would ever suggest that you
should have money to raise a family again. It's
just a different time of life. And yet, many of
our folks across Pennsylvania are thrust into
that situation.
They are good people. They want to keep
their children with them -- their grandchildren
with them. They want to step up and do that.
And we have now seen recently studies that tell
us that children, regardless of how fine the
foster family is, children do best if they are
with a relative.
So the grandparent is stepping up
because their parents can't take care of them is
probably the best circumstance. And yet, it's
often the most difficult circumstance
financially.
Today, then, we are forced -- we are
fortunate -- it sounded like forced. We are
fortunate to have with us several individuals
who, by virtue of profession or personal
experience, can testify to the challenges facing
grandparents who are raising grandchildren.
Our Committee looks forward to learning
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
10
from the testimony of each of you. And I
certainly want to thank you for taking the time
to be here. Because remember, ladies and
gentlemen, we started at 9:00, but some of these
folks have traveled an hour or two hours. So
their day started a bit early to volunteer to be
here to talk to us.
On behalf of the Committee, we thank you
again. I have already introduced my
counterpart, Chairman Conklin. And he has made
some important remarks to remind you that people
will be coming in and out, but it doesn't mean
that we are not interested. In fact, I would
suggest to you that it's been an interest of
mine.
Golly, we had a hearing with the
Aging and Older Adult Services Committee -- I
see the executive director here -- probably a
good three years ago. Two to three? And the
phenomenon has only gotten bigger.
Then we were looking at a smaller
number, but we ought to really consider this.
Now, I would suggest to you, humbly, we have to
consider this and we have to do something about
it because these folks are doing the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
11
Commonwealth, their neighbors and their families
a great service. We need to help them if we can
or at least get them to the right place where
they can choose help if it is available. Or
honestly, they can choose not to have it.
So to lead things off this morning, I
would like to welcome someone who has provided
informative testimony to this Committee on
several occasions in the past.
Mr. Brian Bornman is the Executive
Director of the Pennsylvania Children & Youth
Administrators, an affiliate of the County
Commissioners Association of Pennsylvania.
It is amazing, Mr. Bornman, that all
fits on a little card, but we are glad you are
here. We look forward to what you have to tell
us.
Please begin.
MR. BORNMAN: Thank you, Chairman
Watson, Chairman Conklin and members of this
honorable Committee.
I would like to take this opportunity to
thank you for having me here today and giving me
this opportunity to address you on what has been
correctly identified as a very important issue
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
12
here in Pennsylvania.
Just a little history about myself. I
am the Executive Director of the Pennsylvania
Children & Youth Administrators Association. We
represent all 67 of the Children & Youth
agencies throughout the State.
My history is I started as a caseworker
for a child welfare agency. I got a master's
degree and did child therapy for about a decade,
got my law degree and represented, privately
represented, a number of grandparents in custody
proceedings. I then became a solicitor
representing one of the county's Children &
Youth agencies for about a decade before coming
into this role. So I've kind of run the gamut
of the child welfare spectrum.
Some things I want to talk about today
are basically four main issues: I want to cover
the importance of the grandparents to the
familial stability of the family, and I think
that's largely been covered by
Representative Watson already; some challenges
when the grandparents are working with the child
welfare system because it does bring up some
very unique challenges and frustrations for
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
13
grandparents; the supports that are most
requested by grandparents; and some solutions
that some States have tried to address this
issue because this is certainly not a
Pennsylvania-only issue. This is a nationwide
issue.
I will point out this is a very awkward
room to testify in with the big pole here.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: The one we
had before was a lot worse. This is considered
better.
MR. BORNMAN: This is the upgrade.
Okay.
As Mrs. Watson identified, grandparents
really have historically been the safety net for
families. Many times, they're the ones that are
the most stable in the family and are around to
be that last-ditch safety net before the
children hit the child welfare system. And as
such, they really do need the support to be able
to provide that role without bankrupting
themselves in the process or struggling
financially and physically and emotionally.
If you look at some of the research from
Generations United, which is one of the leaders
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
14
in this field, there really is a growing body of
research that shows that the health issues of
grandparents raising grandkids, it's certainly
not as easy to raise young children as you age.
And financially, it can be very devastating if
there's not that support provided for
grandparents.
Modern research in child welfare has
really focused on the importance of keeping
children with families. And more and more, that
research shows that, more so than we always
assumed, it's better emotionally for the kids to
stay with the family, but that physically, you
are seeing very detrimental effects from kids
raised in the child welfare system: increases in
heart attacks, increases in cancer rates.
A lot of seemingly unconnected medical
conditions are arising at much higher incidents
later in life due to their involvement in the
child welfare system. Anything we can do to
mitigate those concerns, by keeping kids with
family or in their biological family, is only
going to improve the situation. So I don't
think I can emphasize enough how important it is
to have that safety net of having grandparents
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
15
step in and raise the grandchildren.
As Mrs. Watson identified, it is really
important, or really impossible, to tell how
many grandparents are raising grandkids
nationwide. There is a recent bill introduced
by Susan Collins and Senator Casey to establish
a task force to look at this at the Federal
level, but they identify 2.5 million. I've
heard three million, but I think those are low
numbers.
You could go through and count all of
your custody orders that came out of either
Children & Youth cases, PFAs, custody court, but
most of these cases really are informal
custodial arrangements, either through a simple
signature on a guardianship agreement or just
the de facto living situation in the family.
And also, it's impossible to really
capture how many of those situations are
multi-generational families, in which the parent
may live in the home, but really the bulk of the
support and the parenting is coming from the
grandparent because the parent is young, is
going to college, or for whatever reason is not
available.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
16
One of the -- financially, one of the
numbers that I've seen recently on the HHS
website, and in an article that was put out, was
between $23 and $39 billion a year is saved from
the county or the government because of
grandparents intervening and providing care for
those children. If all of those kids are
suddenly to be thrust upon the child welfare
system, we would be look at a very dramatic
increase in cost to child welfare nationwide.
One of the bright points is that
Pennsylvania is really doing a lot better in
terms of getting kids into Kinship Care. It was
something that was recognized a number of years
ago, as we like to say, kind of before it was
cool to do so.
We have really been focusing more on
getting kids into Kinship Care. I know this is
something that Cathy is going to talk about, so
I'm not going to belabor that point.
So what are some of the challenges to
grandparents when they're involved in the child
welfare system?
Basically, there are kind of two avenues
of support for grandparents. They can --
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
17
financially, when you're looking at what can we
do to help support, there's the public
assistance, which has its own number of
challenges; and then there's the Children &
Youth avenue, in which the child welfare
agencies can help may for Kinship Care subsidies
and provide some additional supports and assure
that the kids get health insurance and things of
that nature, but it carries with it its own set
of challenges. And that is something that I
want to discuss at this point.
Probably one of the biggest challenges
in my experience with grandparents is really the
frustration in dealing with the agency. Despite
the fact that agencies try to be responsive to
families and understanding and accepting, they
are still bureaucracies. It is still a
challenge. It is still a big machine to deal
with.
We have rules and regulations, and it
can be very frustrating as a parent, a
grandparent dealing with the agencies in that
regard. And what I hear most often is, either
the agencies were too heavy handed in terms of
they didn't give the parents adequate
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
18
opportunities to get their lives turned around
so that they could keep their kids and that was
wrong; or that they were too lenient and gave
the parents too many opportunities when the
grandparents felt that they should not have been
given so many opportunities. So that is always
a source of frustration.
I've had many discussions over the years
with grandparents:
Why did you let it go so long;
Why did you pull the kids out of the
home so soon?
One of the biggest challenges with that
is, as with anything family-related, there are a
lot of protections built into the Juvenile Act,
and what you may know as a family structure
regarding drug use or someone's inability to
parent or mental health conditions, may be very
different than what I, as a solicitor, could go
into court and prove to a clear and convincing
legal standard.
So there is always that challenge in
terms of what the agency may kind of have a
feeling of in their gut versus what they can
actually prove and sustain in court.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
19
There are the challenges of the court
process itself. Court can be very time
consuming. It involves a lot of time sitting in
a waiting room and waiting for your case to be
called. It involves a lot of time sitting,
perhaps with a lot to say and not necessarily
having that opportunity to just jump in in the
court process and add what you feel needs to be
said. So the court process itself can be very
frustrating.
Many times, family members, particularly
grandparents, feel very frustrated with having
to testify against those they love and care
about. If you know something as a family
member, you would be the one that would have to
testify in court about what you witnessed, what
you saw.
When you're talking about your own child
and having to testify about finding your child
with a needle in their arm or kids unsupervised,
that can be a very difficult thing for anyone,
even if it is in the best interest of the
grandkids.
Assuming you get through the whole
adjudicatory process and the kids are
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
20
adjudicated dependant and placed in custody,
there are all of the hoops then that you have to
jump through once you're identified as a
potential kinship caregiver. They're not
inconsequential.
There's a home study that needs to be
done before kids can be placed with you. You
can do an emergency caregiver for the first 60
days, but beyond that point, you really need to
basically be licensed as a foster home. That
involves looking at financial records. It
involves looking at your home and determining
whether your water is safe by having it tested
and all of the things that go along with a home
study to assure that kids are living in a safe
home, but it's very intrusive.
If you're somebody in your retirement
age, you may not necessarily want a caseworker
poking around your home several days a week and
asking you very personal questions about your
lifestyle and your finances and all of that. So
that can be very uncomfortable for a lot of
people.
There are also some limitations in terms
of if the children are placed in your home
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
21
through the custody of a child welfare agency,
there may be some limitations on what you can
and can't do with the kids in terms of how often
they may see the parents and where you can
travel with them.
With last year's passage of the
Reasonable and Prudent Parenting Standard,
things got a lot better in terms of transferring
a lot more of that authority to the caregiver to
allow them to make the day-to-day decisions for
kids in their care, but there are still a number
of limitations, just due to the legal structure
of the custodial arrangements.
If a child is placed in the home,
they're adjudicated dependent, they're placed in
your home, you jump through all of the hoops and
you have the home study and everything is good,
another pain point has always been the Adoption
and Safe Families Act.
So under the Federal Adoption and Safe
Families Act and Pennsylvania's enactment of
that, if a child has been in care 15 of the
preceding 22 months, there's an obligation for
the agency to file a termination of parental
rights to try to get them into a permanent home.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
22
This concept of grandparents adopting their
grandkids can be a challenge for some people to
come to grips with.
As a grandparent, you want to be a
grandparent. You don't want to be a parent. In
my experience, almost without fail, the
grandparents I have spoken to wanted to be
grandparents. They wanted nothing more than
their kids to rise up to the challenge and be
able to step back into that parental role.
And then when the agency comes in and is
trying to force them or convince them that it's
in the best interest of the child to terminate
parental rights and adopt their grandchild so
now they're a parent, that the can be a lot to
deal with, and the frustration sometimes. Just
the emotional challenges, I don't think can be
understated. It's a very difficult situation.
There is a lot of embarrassment, shame,
frustration with seeing that your child was
unable to provide for your grandchildren and now
you're stepping into that parental role. So
oftentimes it takes a lot of work and some
counseling to get people through all of that to
accept that situation. The supports most
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
23
requested by grandparents really come down to
information, legal support, as Chairwoman Watson
noted, and financial support.
Whenever a grandparent has custody of a
child suddenly, not something they're planning
for, there are a lot of questions that come up,
such as, what are my rights; what can I do; what
can't I do? If the parent shows back up, can
they just take the child?
There are not a lot of really good
sources of information out there for
grandparents in that situation. So if the
agency is involved, if that's the route by which
a grandparent had the child come into their
custody, many of those questions can be answered
through the agency, but if it's an informal
custodial arrangement, there are not a lot of
people to ask those questions of.
And legally, you're not going to get a
lot of help from the legal aid societies. Most
counties will have some type of legal aid, but
in my experience, most of those have very
limiting rules in terms of who they represent.
And predominantly, that is parents. Generally,
indigent parents, if they're being sued for
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
24
custody, are who would qualify to be
represented.
Very rarely have I seen any of the legal
aid societies intervene to represent a
grandparent to pursue custody. So for legal
purposes, grandparents are really on their own.
And as correctly noted, we lawyers are very
expensive, so that can always be a challenge.
We talked briefly about the sources of
financial aid. And if pursuing custody through
child welfare, you will have access to the
kinship subsidy. I know Cathy is going to talk
about that, so I'm not really going to spend a
lot of time on that.
But the other avenue to seek support
financially is through the public benefits. So
grandparents may be eligible for CHIP for the
kids for their insurance or a child subsidy,
cash assistance. There are a number of programs
available, but one of the biggest roadblocks of
that is, as with anyone else, to pursue those
benefits, you have to be eligible. You have to
qualify.
It generally requires suing the parents
for child support. And again, it comes back to
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
25
that very difficult situation of if you need
support to raise your grandchildren, do you want
to sue your own child, which may result in them
ultimately being incarcerated for nonpayment of
support in the process. So it creates some very
difficult decisions and some difficult positions
that grandparents are put in because of the
nature of the benefits.
So what are some of the things that
other States have tried to do?
Like I said, this is not a
Pennsylvania-only issue. This is something
that's across the nation.
Some States have gone with a kinship
navigator program, which is really a statewide
program that acts as an information clearing
house. So for grandparents who find themselves
in a caretaking role for their grandchildren,
it's a support line where they can call and find
out where they can access certain things.
A lot comes up when you haven't raised a
child in 30 years. So if you suddenly have a
new baby in the house, you may need to find out
where do I get formula? I mean, what do I need
to do?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
So it can provide resources for
parenting classes in your community or just
sources of information online, places where you
can get insurance for the kids, how to enroll
kids in school, how to make sure you get medical
rights for the kids. So a lot of those things
that come up, everyday questions that parents
have to struggle with, are the same things that
grandparents have to struggle with when they're
suddenly thrust into that caretaking role.
Some States, as well, have tried setting
up a fund, a statewide fund, to provide for
legal service funding for grandparents, as well.
I really don't have a lot of information on how
that's played out. I think the kinship
navigator programs have played out pretty well
and been well received when they've been
implemented, but I'm not sure about the -- I
haven't had a chance to find out a lot about the
funding for legal services, but that's certainly
an area that is a challenge for grandparents
seeking custody.
It's one thing to have a child placed in
your home if a parent says, I'm running off to
do whatever. You now have a child in your home,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
27
but you don't really have any legal authority to
enroll that child in school, to seek medical
care. So that next step to get something more
formalized that will be accepted by the schools
and the physicians can be an expensive
proposition to get to that point.
So that is really where we're at in
Pennsylvania at this time. It can be
frustrating to deal with the child welfare
system, but that is probably your most stable
source of support financially, as well as being
able to quickly access services that the kids
may need.
The other avenue of seeking whatever
benefits may be available publicly carries with
it its own set of challenges, in that you
generally will have to sue your children for
child support in order to be able to access any
of those benefits. To the extent this Committee
is looking at different programs moving forward,
I would really encourage you to look closely at
the kinship navigator program. I think that has
a lot of promise to it, and perhaps some
combination of some funding of legal fees to
help support making those situations more
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
28
permanent in nature.
Once again, I want to thank you for the
opportunity to let me come here and talk today.
Hopefully I made some sense.
I want to thank this Committee for some
recent legislation sponsoring a resolution
recognizing Children & Youth caseworkers. They
really do work very hard to protect the kids of
Pennsylvania, and I appreciate that. I want to
thank them for all of their work.
Most of all, I want to thank the
grandparents of Pennsylvania for all of the hard
work that they're doing. I know it may be
incredibly frustrating and incredibly difficult
at the time you're dealing with it, but you
really are keeping kids safe and protecting
their emotional and physical well-being in the
long term.
I will be happy to field any questions
anyone may have.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you,
Mr. Bornman.
And in light of that, could you stay?
Because what we'd like to do,
oftentimes, we get off on questions. This is a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
29
really bright Committee, these folks, topnotch.
And we'll get off on that, and we won't get
through all of the testifiers.
So I would like to listen, and we would
listen to everybody, but ladies and gentlemen of
the Committee, if you would write your questions
down, and we're asking if indeed you would stay
for the hearing. Then we could -- plus, you
need to hear what somebody else says, and maybe
then, I don't know, we spark something between
the two of you.
MR. BORNMAN: Certainly.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you
so much.
We were to hear this morning from
Rich Hughes, who is a very compelling
grandparent from Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania. I
believe, Representative Hahn, that's your
district, right?
REPRESENTATIVE HAHN: Yes.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Sadly, he
was injured on the job. He suffered a back
injury, and his doctor has restricted him from
traveling. He can't drive, I guess, or actually
sit up in the car for that length of time.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
30
So we were sorry for that because it was
compelling, but we will move to a very
compelling legislator who has been working in
this area, and interested in this area, for as
long as I can remember. And indeed, some would
say we have been partners in crime, which is
fine. We both accept that.
Representative Eddie Pashinski from
Luzerne County has shown a great interest and
understanding of, I'll call it the plight of
grandparents raising grandchildren. You heard
Mr. Bornman talk about, imagine, when you're
trying to get your child back from whatever, you
would have to sue your child in court in order
to get the money for raising the grandchildren.
You're not going to find folks who are
going to step up and do that because it
essentially burns that bridge. There's no way
back. So you have some other ideas. And
Representative Pashinski, we would like to hear
of your insight, your ideas, all of the above.
REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: Well, good
morning. Thank you very much, Chairwoman
Watson. It's been a pleasure to work with you
on so many issues concerning children.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
31
And I think it's noteworthy,
congratulations, it's a tremendous thing that
you've accomplished, you and your husband, your
50 year wedding anniversary. That's
outstanding.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you.
REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: And I mean
that sincerely.
Mr. Bornman laid out some of the
problems that these grandparents face. And just
to give you a little idea, this goes back
probably now, four or five years or more that I
became aware of this problem where grandparents
were now being forced as the last resort to take
care of their grandchildren.
We have a very good support system in
northeastern Pennsylvania. Literally hundreds
of grandparents come together, they discuss
their problems, they try to help one another.
That's how I became aware of this need.
I think one of the points that I want to
make here is that the laws regarding adoption
and kinship and being in charge of taking care
of one's family, I think, was based years ago on
a typical divorce, where two parents fell in
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
32
love, got married, had children and then things
didn't work out.
But in the end, both parents still loved
the children, and both parents would still work
towards supporting those children, either
financially or from the standpoint of parenting
them time to time.
The infusion of the opioid epidemic has
changed the thinking dramatically, and it needs
to change the thinking dramatically. Most
people that are addicted through opioids are
incapable, incapable, of taking care of the
children.
And the number one goal, I think, that
any of us should have here, as all the agencies
have, is the care and welfare, the safety, the
health and welfare of the child. So that's
number one.
What is in the best interest of the
children?
I have heard testimony from countless
grandparents that go through excruciating
circumstances. First of all, to deal with the
fact that one of their children, that's a
parent, is now addicted, the trauma that they go
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
33
through is incredible. And the grandparents
then reach out to try to protect and save the
children. So if I could make one point here
today, it would be that.
This is not like a typical divorce,
where there's a separation of parents causing a
disruption in the family circle. Again, most
parents in that divorce will still love the
children and be capable to understand the
responsibility that they have towards taking
care of those kids.
Those that are addicted, especially with
opioids, are incapable of doing that. Mentally,
the physiological brain changes. And because of
that, they cannot think normally. So therefore,
the grandparents are now forced into the
situation.
I have introduced two bills. It started
years ago, where we were going to try to do the
kinship navigator bill. We wanted to do a pilot
program in the northeast to demonstrate how
things have changed and to demonstrate why
there's such a need.
We were very successful in passing that
bill through the House. Chairwoman Watson, you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
34
were very supportive of that. We got it through
the House. When it came to the Senate, the
Senate denied the process because they felt that
there wasn't a need for what we were trying to
do.
I think the testimony today, and your
own testimony, Madam Chair, has indicated times
have changed. So the issue is before us; you
can't ignore it. We have to do something about
it.
What I tried to do is moderate and
change the original bill to what we now call
emergency guardianship. This change came about
after discussion with several attorneys and
several judges. They felt that the best way to
address this issue would be through emergency
guardianship.
What does that mean?
Emergency guardianship allows those
grandparents, loco parentis, which means now,
for 60 days, they can take them now to a doctor
and get proper medical treatment. They can
enroll them in school. They became the parent;
60 days.
After 60 days, an extension can be also
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
35
extended for another 60 days with a maximum of
365 days. The idea of this is to make it less
cumbersome for the guardians to be able to
manage the care of the children. The hope is
that the parents will recover -- God bless you
-- and that the parents can resume their duties
as parents. That's the purpose of 1539.
So we have HR 390, which is going to ask
the Joint State Government Committee to do a
study to determine what are the needs relative
to the State of Pennsylvania; and then 1539 is a
way that we can give emergency guardianship to
those countless grandparents that are involved
in this problem.
So we have the change, based upon the
opioid addiction. We have the number one goal,
to protect the children. And then the other
goal is to try to help the grandparents.
Why do we need to do that?
Some of the numbers are staggering.
When I first started in researching this and
getting involved in this, the numbers were 190
to 191,000 children in the State of
Pennsylvania, grandchildren in the State of
Pennsylvania, that were being taken care of by
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
36
80,000 grandparents. Today, the numbers are
about 195,000 grandchildren being taken care of
by 88,000-plus grandparents. It's not going
away.
I'm not suggesting that I have all of
the answers here, but I am suggesting that with
all of us working together, I think we can come
to a conclusion that will accomplish those
goals. One, address the issue. Two, protect
the children. Three, help the grandparents.
I stand here for your questions.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON:
Representative Pashinski, thank you very much.
I'm going to go through everybody, but I
have questions for you, so I look forward to you
staying and doing that.
REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: I will stay.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: But I want
to thank you publicly because I guess you are
the Paul Revere for grandparents, but indeed,
you sounded the alarm. I know that, from the
hearing that we had with the Aging Committee and
Chairman Hennessey, that's when I became aware,
talked to folks in my area who are doing it.
And what I found was the great
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
37
reluctance, I'll talk to you, but no, I don't
want to testify, and no, I don't want to be a
part of any system. And I'm like, but I don't
know how to help you. So I would venture that
you're coming up with some ideas that I think
are necessary, where maybe we need to change the
system a little, too, or make a category, a
special category for people in this circumstance
because their situation is very different.
And that's something you and I both
believe that we have to do --
REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: Absolutely.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: -- and make
work. And then it will work for the lawyers and
the this and the that. But mostly, it will work
for the children, which is what we're all about.
REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: Well, thank
you.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you
very much.
REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: Thank you,
Madam Chair.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: We have
questions coming.
REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: I'm here.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
38
Thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: All right.
Thank you.
Now, it's my pleasure -- I mentioned to
some of you that people had traveled far.
Thanks for being here, because it was 9:00, but
they had to travel further than that and get up
and be here. Our next testifier is, indeed, one
of those people. And that is Mrs. Lotte Powell.
She made the trip from Honesdale, Pennsylvania
to participate in today's hearing.
Mrs. Powell and her husband are
currently raising the child of her daughter.
Mrs. Powell, I appreciate your willingness to
get up nice and early and come to testify to
share your personal story, which I think is
terribly important, but I know it's very hard
for folks to do. You are a brave lady.
On behalf of the Committee, I want to
thank you for being here. We look forward to
hearing you speak. Thank you.
MRS. POWELL: Thank you very much.
Good morning, Representative Watson and
members of the Children & Youth Committee. I
will be reading off my notes. I'm not very good
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
39
with eye contact. Forgive me.
My name is Lotte Powell. I live in
Honesdale, and I'm a grandparent raising a
grandchild. Our granddaughter, Rosie, is 20
months old and has special needs due to chronic
failure to thrive.
I'm giving my testimony in hopes that it
will help this Committee better understand the
depth and expanse we grandparents face in
raising our grandchildren in the hopes that you
can craft some working solutions. This
Committee must find a way to make the system
proactive instead of reactive, a way to help us
open doors for these children, and a way to
prevent a new poverty group that is in your
midst, still unrecognized.
How did we become grandparents raising a
grandchild?
Our granddaughter was born on
October 12th, 2015. At that time, there was no
paternity on her birth certificate. The
hospital social worker painstakingly took time
to explain to our daughter the need for
paternity in order to attain welfare benefits,
should she need them down the road.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
40
An acknowledgement of paternity form was
left with our daughter. She was an unwed teen
mother at the time.
The following February, she married
someone who had just been released from jail in
January. He was 17 years her senior. They took
the acknowledgement of paternity form and it was
filed, hereby subverting the adoption procedure,
and the child was put in immediate danger.
The gentleman my daughter married has
had all of his children taken away by Children &
Youth in other States. Paternity was issued on
the birth certificate, not as putative, but as
full father, granting him rights throughout the
States. The putative status is unavailable to
vital records to denote on a birth certificate.
They took our granddaughter, and they
moved into New York State. Our granddaughter
was moved on March 15th, and the family was
fully welfare-dependent. Public housing was in
place. Food stamps were delayed. Medical
coverages was delayed. And WIC was never
implemented for obvious reasons as you will
hear.
We needed to involve child protective
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
41
services in May of 2016. I contacted the abuse
hotline because there was lack of food and
severe abuse taking place in the home, but not
physical abuse. I did not hear back from them.
In May, I again contacted them, spoke
with the caseworker and provided pictures of our
emaciated granddaughter. She gained, from
February until September, one and a half pounds
during eight months of an infant's life.
I also contacted Pennsylvania Children &
Youth for assistance, but was told there was
none available. I have since come to learn
there are only three caseworkers in an area
where there should be 11.
In September, the doctor finally
reported chronic failure to thrive for our
granddaughter. New York did not remove the
child. Rather, they implemented minimal
supports into the family. This put us in a
place that, on September 28th, we filed for
guardianship with New York State on behalf of
our granddaughter.
It took from September of '16 until
February of '17 before pre-trial intervention
took place. This involved six attorneys. It
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
42
resulted in the court assigning legal
representation to the child.
One week later, family court heard the
matter. The judge listened to testimony and
determined that the stepfather had no paternal
rights, as were granted on the Pennsylvania
birth certificate.
We were given temporarily guardianship
for the child's safety and learned that New York
Children & Youth had indeed done an in-depth
investigation in the home and recommended that
the child should be removed, but never took any
action. The court also never issued any
support. This put the child back inside of
Pennsylvania.
What do we do?
Well, the first thing that I did was I
went online to COMPASS. Not every grandparent
has access to the Internet or understanding of
how to use this.
We applied for all of the available
services: Food Stamps, TANF, cash assistance,
medical, early intervention, Early Head Start,
WIC, a story behind each of these. In general,
we were able to get medical care for her. We
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
43
were able to put that into place. CHIP is
there.
Early intervention, we were able to
qualify and she is receiving. Early Head Start,
finances were considered. Fortunately, there
were other factors that opened the door for our
granddaughter who is in need. As far as cash
assistance, Food Stamps and TANF, Food Stamps
and cash assistance, the senior community is
greatly penalized because we have been
responsible through our life. We may qualify to
apply, however, when it comes to the point of a
net income, which greatly looks at what do you
pay on a mortgage, what do you pay on rent, so
forth and so on, we didn't have these expenses
because we had been responsible. We've paid off
our home. We pay for our cars. And we we're
not sitting here living outside of our means.
TANF, that is based, as we've heard, on
parental input, financially. Our granddaughter
has no father at this point to be able to
receive anything from. Our daughter was whisked
away by an abusive man into Florida, no job, and
we have great, great strains with that, as well.
WIC, she qualified for. You should hear
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
44
what she's receiving. She gets 26 cents a day
for fresh fruits and vegetables, two glasses of
milk, a dozen eggs per month, a forth of a glass
of juice, two and a half ounces of dry cereal, a
slice of bread, two ounces of beans, but let's
make certain that we provide a chemical-based
Pediasure in order to prevent this child from
not growing.
Children & Youth were contacted by
New York State six days after we got her on
February 14th. They received a referral from
New York State to see if they could do anything
to assist us. They were limited to COMPASS
because this child is not a foster care case.
That was subverted. Therefore, there is no
access to any of the grand family guardianship
programs that may be available.
Her current legal status, New York State
was able to provide us permanent guardianship.
May -- in April, we were able to finally get
Susquehanna County to determine who the father
was through DNA testing, however, the father has
no interest in the child and he is unable to
support her.
This left us with very few options, so
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
45
we have had to start the adoption process.
Paternal consent papers are on file at this time
with our attorney. We are waiting now for the
abandonment time to complete. Total legal costs
to date for the guardianship alone in New York
State are $4,000. That does not cover any of
the costs that we've had so far to raise this
little girl who does have needs.
Adoption costs have yet to be
determined. Our retirement savings are totally
depleted. Our annual income is $26,151. And
that may sound very strange. On top of that, we
are also legal guardians for my mother with
Alzheimer's. So we have other people in our
lives that we do care for, that have great needs
that there are no resources for. My mother is
91 years old.
What are our community challenges?
You've heard a number of them. I've written a
few out.
First, we need to be accurately
recognized. Current statistics only reflect
those cases that are known and documented, as
we've mentioned. With the current drug epidemic
alone, this group of unknowns is skyrocketing.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
46
That does not include those whom the system has
betrayed. The Department of Children & Youth
has trust issues throughout the public. There
are many reasons for that.
Family is not received as credible
advocates when we call in. That is one of the
great problems. There is a great fear on our
part of losing our children to the foster care
system. Many of us have been betrayed by the
system, a court or a caseworker. Communication
with family is stifled. CYS workers are not
allowed to speak to anyone outside of the
immediate guardians, and then they are required
to respect their requests, even when these are
the people who have endangered these children's
lives. That is unacceptable.
The current system requirements are that
only minimum systems be rendered to avoid foster
care. Pressure on the workers from within is to
lower the caseload, waiting it out as long as
possible till a family member steps up, landing
us in a situation such as what I have, which
goes, again, into the undocumented numbers. And
these do happen frequently across State lines.
This is not a Pennsylvania-only issue, but it is
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
47
something that's alive here in PA.
The results, there are no supports
outside of foster care. COMPASS programs are
dependent on the legal status of the caregiver
and the guardian's resources solely.
Abandonment and court-appointed children are not
considered endangered, yet they have no access
to medical care, education or even their own
funds.
The funds that these children have are
being left in the hands of drug addicts so often
and are now funding this opioid epidemic.
Families are not provided ways to engage in
essential services. There is no access to legal
aid, and there is no one to advocate for these
children.
Health and Human Services, there is a
limited access to the COMPASS benefits, as I
have mentioned, for legal and financial reasons.
Families of these children have no access to
special services. We require respite care
resources. We suffer from caregiver neglect and
burn out.
There are no resources to prevent
poverty needs. Inside of the system, there's no
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
48
means for toilet paper, soap, diapers,
essentials that we need for children, essentials
that can prevent poverty appearances.
Area Agency on Aging offers no support.
There are no care coordinators. We deal with
great geriatric and pediatric needs. People
come down with cancer, they have to take special
needs children on public transportation. These
children are minor.
How are we supposed to do this?
These are very true situations that I
know of in our own community, and I've only been
dealing with this since February.
Potential solutions, we are asking for a
hand up, not a handout. Please stop penalizing
us for living responsible lives by making a new
poverty group.
What can you as legislators do?
Some ideas, push our State Senators at
the Capitol level to amend the RAISE Caregivers
Act in Washington, revamp Title IV-E gap to
provide families with subsidized permanent legal
custodianship while a family is undergoing a
foster care licensure procedure.
Sixty days is a drop in the bucket that
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
49
passes by before you know it, and we spend our
time sitting, spinning our wheels, taking the
time with court after court after court. Upon
the new State System of Care program that's in
place, we need to include the Department of
Aging and the Department of Education to benefit
all the numbers of the community.
We need to create a program for the GRGs
on par with the current Pennsylvania CARE Act
with the General Assembly.
Why? To provide medical care, access to
finance benefits and enroll these children in
school. We need to implement this through
Children & Youth. A key element would be to
Children & Youth immediately referring the case
to legal aid to process emergency proceedings on
behalf of the children and the GRGs.
We have many attorneys throughout the
State who do pro bono work, who are not being
used by legal aid. This should be opened up and
utilized.
Revise recording of the acknowledgement
of paternity in vital records. Make a provision
for a putative father when using the
acknowledgement of paternity form, congruently
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
50
defined on the birth certificate what the rights
of these parents are because they are being
granted and children are being put in danger.
Revise all the COMPASS programs accessed
for the care of a GRG child to be based on the
minor's situation solely, their income, their
representation, not on the part of the
grandparent, because we are hampered.
Update the Title IV-E waiver from Social
Security to better cover the GRG needs.
Pressure AARP to the establish Kinship Care
Program here inside of Pennsylvania. At this
time, what's there is not -- I have seen much
better in other States. And AARP, at this time,
is not participating in that here.
Encourage CASA programs throughout every
county in Pennsylvania. There are only 27
counties that have CASA representation. Create
trust within the community, tear down walls to
existing programs, base the qualifications on
the recipient's age and income. In this case,
dominantly children, but we also have seniors
who don't have access to things as a result.
Remove the foster care requirement for
Subsidized Grand Family Program. Currently, the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
51
children have to be in State foster care for six
months prior to being able to access this. And
yet, we talk about giving 60 days for a
grandparent to be able to step in. Something is
very out of balance.
Allow Children & Youth to assist grand
families that may not be in foster care and
grand families' resources to Children & Youth to
be able to call in. Create a financial
caseworker within Children & Youth.
What would their job look like? To
better identify and connect families to
available resources that are both public and
private and throughout other agencies, not just
Children & Youth.
Educate a caregiver on how to better use
these resources, improving the quality of life,
such as educating them. To act as a resource of
legislators when you are looking to craft a
working solution.
You need somebody you can go to. You
can't go to every single caseworker you've got,
but to have one in each county that you as
Representatives can go to and have just a few to
tap into would be quite helpful.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
52
Treat your caregivers with respect,
provide publication that exists, The
Grandparents' Guide to Custody & visitation. I
went down to Area Agency on Aging. They didn't
even know this thing existed.
Why isn't this out there throughout the
Agencies?
It's been developed. We've spent the
money on it, let's put it in their hands.
Listen to us, the family, as credible.
We are the ones that are seeing where and when
the caseworkers cannot. Recognize the family
needs for those who fill the gap of both the
young and the old. Open the Aging offices to
use by our community. Extend more Aging
programs to include our dependants.
I couldn't even go down and have a
community meal with my granddaughter without
paying full price. As a senior, that's
unacceptable.
Respond positively to local caregiver
groups. Don't reply with just an Internet link
or be unavailable for an evening meeting. You
need to hear us; we need to hear you.
Many of us find ourselves having to
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
53
work. We are tied up with providing for these
children during the day when other agencies are
there. And if we ask for someone to come once a
year to a meeting, don't sit there and say, I
can't go because it's after hours.
Authorize these hours to be available
for our needs through the State agencies.
Regional community forum, that was done by
Area Agency on Aging when you were looking at
the Alzheimer's situation. Do the same here.
Provide four or five meetings throughout the
Commonwealth and listen to what the public has
to say.
You will hear from many different walks
of life that work with this. We have limited
resources here at the Capitol, but you have it
throughout the State. Reach out to the
community foundations that exist to assist the
awareness of the GRG needs. They will be there.
In the legal system, base the legal aid
qualifications on the child. Make those who are
pro bono available to children. Immediately
provide a CASA worker for each child that is
abandoned or appointed a legal guardian. That
would help huge.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
54
My conclusion is a quote from the
Department of Education website for family and
consumer science education, the economic, social
and political well-being of our State depends on
the well-being of the Pennsylvania families.
The family is responsible for nurturing its
members. Family experiences, to a great extent,
determine who a person is and what they become.
If our needs, as grandparents raising
grandchildren, as a community, are left
unaddressed, legislators will be burdening
Pennsylvania with a new poverty group. It will
enable prejudice toward system outcasts, the
abandoned, the victimized, the very old, the
very young, those who are most vulnerable.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON:
Mrs. Powell, thank you very much.
I think you started by saying, I'm not
going to look up, and I have to do this and
that. Mrs. Powell, you're eloquent. You just
may not know it yourself, but you are a good and
great advocate for people who are in a situation
like you.
Many of the things, I kept sitting and
looking like one of those bobbing dolls in the
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
55
back of the car. I would be nodding my head
because, yes, people are hearing you. They do
know. I understand more of us need to
understand, and you have helped make that
happen.
Thank you very much. And if you can,
please, after the long ride, stick around for
any questions that might come up.
MRS. POWELL: Certainly.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: All right.
MRS. POWELL: Thank you.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you
so much.
At this time, I would like to welcome a
lady who is no stranger to this Committee. We
sort of have her on standby and call and ask
questions, but indeed, it is Cathy Utz. She is
the Deputy Secretary for Department of Human
Services Office of Children, Youth & families.
Certainly, you've testified on a variety
of issues before. You've always been a valuable
resources, and I want to thank you because
you've been a good partner in working for the
welfare of children.
I would add that that is really why this
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
56
Committee exists, to give children a voice, to
put children first because they are voiceless.
And I think of Mrs. Powell's testimony. A
20-month-old has great needs and can't verbalize
that the way her grandmother could. So we thank
you for being here, and we also would like --
we're going to do a two team -- what is that in
wrestling?
It's a tag team. I don't know how I
could have forgotten it, I watch wrestling all
the time. But in any event, indeed, we've got
Suzann Morris. Ms. Morris, you've been here
before, too. We go right to the sources.
And indeed, you've just been
confirmed -- congratulations -- as the
Deputy Secretary second at OCDEL. I use the
acronym so you can explain it. We congratulate
you on your appointment. We thank you for being
here, and we'll perhaps just roll with both of
you to give us your opinions. You've listened
to previous testimony.
Please begin. Thank you.
DEPUTY SECRETARY UTZ: Thank you,
Chairwoman Watson, Chairman Conklin and members
of the Committee. Yes, I do spend a lot of time
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
57
with you all. I think just a few months ago,
right? And I talk to many of you on the phone,
right?
So I think that we've heard a lot about
some of the challenges that exist. I want to
thank Mrs. Powell for caring for her
granddaughter. It sounds like that's been a
very challenging journey.
I think that in Pennsylvania, what we
want to talk about, at least from our
perspective is, what's happening in the child
welfare system when families become involved,
and then the resources that are available
through the Office of Child Development and
Early Learning.
But I think that Pennsylvania has had a
long history of providing services to kin who
are there to provide safe and stable homes for
children who would otherwise be placed in the
child welfare system, but I think we've also
heard that there's probably work that we need to
do in that regard.
The data that we've been able to collect
from our 67 counties shows that on September
30th of 2016, there were 15,627 children who
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
58
were placed in Pennsylvania's foster care
system. And that of those, the good news is,
12,662 were actually placed in family-like
settings. So we've come a long way in our work
to ensure that children are placed in those
family-like settings.
That includes pre-adoptive homes. It
includes foster family homes of relatives or
kin, as we refer to it in Pennsylvania, but also
non-relative foster homes.
I think that we all know that research
tells us that children that are placed in
family-like settings versus congregate care
settings also have better long-term outcomes.
Their educational needs are better. They are
more self-sufficient, generally speaking. They
end up being not in homeless situations or
incarcerated. So we're doing everything that we
can to ensure that our children are in
family-like settings because that's the most
appropriate place.
And what we're getting proud of is that
really we're spending a lot of time looking and
searching for family members. This legislature
passed the Family Finding Act, and I think one
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
59
of the sponsors is actually over there in the
corner. So we actually have done a lot of great
work since that's been in place.
In 2011, of the children that were
placed in foster family homes, 3,433 were in
relative homes. On September 30th of 2016,
5,385 children were actually in relative homes.
So we continue to do our best.
I think there used to be an adage back
in the day -- and I can say that because I'll
hit 30 years this year -- in child welfare that
there was an adage that the apple doesn't fall
far from the tree. So we didn't realize the
benefits that families would actually provide in
caring for children. I think we've come a long
way in that period of time to recognize the
vital resources that grandparents and other kin
play in the lives of children that are placed in
the formal child welfare system.
Our efforts, really, in supporting kin
began two decades ago, in 1997. Brian mentioned
the Adoption and Safe Families Act, that it
established, really, national goals for the
child welfare system, of safety, permanency and
well-being. Prior to those, what we found is
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
60
that children were really languishing in foster
care. They would spend years in foster care
without permanent resources. They would age out
of our system, and we knew that their outcomes
weren't good.
Many of them ended up homeless, reliant
on other public benefits. But really, we're
looking to make sure that we have a new day.
When children enter the foster care system,
there's a court order goal established. And
we're really looking at those court ordered
goals.
First and foremost, we try to reunify
children with their families. And if they
can't, then we look to find that child a
permanent home through adoption. And then we
look to find either a fit and willing relative
or a permanent legal custodian, as we've heard
about today.
The Juvenile Act was amended in 1998 to
support the requirements of the Federal
legislation. And then at around that time, to
support the ongoing needs of children who had
special needs that were adopted, we actually had
our adoption assistance program, which provides
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
61
subsidies to families who adopt children with
special needs, not just in the form of a cash
subsidy, but also Medical Assistance.
We also then recognized that, prior to
the receipt of Federal funds, it wasn't just
adoption that was achieving permanent outcomes
for children, it really was guardianship. So we
started our permanent legal custodianship
program through the use of State and county
funds only in order to support subsidies to
families who didn't necessarily adopt a child,
but were willing to be that permanent resource
because perhaps they still wanted to be
connected to their families. They didn't want
to go through the termination of parental
rights, as we've talked about, which can be
challenging and concerning.
If you're a grandparent wanting to adopt
your grandchild, it might be challenging then to
explore termination of your child's parental
rights. And so we really began to support our
subsidized permanent legal custodianship
program. We've been doing that since 2001, in
making sure that we provide those resources and
services that are available. So it is the same
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
62
as the Adoption Assistance Program, where you
get a subsidy and oftentimes Medical Assistance
benefits, as well.
And so as a result of our work -- and I
think Brian stole my line that we did this
before it was cool to do it -- other States
began to see that it was something that worked.
And then in 2008, the Federal government
actually began to participate in the
reimbursement to States and counties for
guardianship assistance programs. So we're now
able to draw down Federal funds to begin to
support that work, we continue to do so each and
every day.
But in true Pennsylvania fashion, we
didn't think that we should stop just at what
the Federal government would pay for, because
they support adoption subsidies and guardianship
subsidies for children up to age 21, if they
have been adopted or achieve guardianship after
the age of 16. In Pennsylvania, we took a step
back, we looked at our data, and we recognized
that we have a lot of youth who were between the
ages of 13 and 15 years old who were languishing
in our foster care system. We said, you know
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
63
what, we want to make sure that they support
subsidies up until age 21.
So through work with the General
Assembly, we actually codified that, as well.
And through our guardianship assistance program
and adoption assistance, we will support those
subsidies up to age 21, because we recognize
that children were staying in foster care,
because you could have those supports to 21 for
a child who remained in foster care.
We wanted to make sure that those
supports were afforded to individuals who
adopted or provided guardianship after the age
of 13 because that was important. So because we
had these well-established programs in place, we
were one of the first States in the nation to
actually be able to draw down Federal funds to
support the work that we've been doing.
And over the time that we've been
working on our Kinship Care program, I think we
all know that our definition of kin in
Pennsylvania is very broad. So it includes
relatives, but it also includes individuals with
whom that child and/or family have a
relationship, because we recognize -- I'm an
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
64
aunt to many kids that aren't my blood nieces
and nephews, right?
So I think that part of what we
recognized in Pennsylvania is that there are a
lot of people who care for kids who know family
members, and we want to make sure that they're
supported, as well. And the General Assembly
has been really great about supporting us in our
efforts to move that work forward.
And so our data currently suggests that
in fiscal year 2015-2016, that there were 11,448
children who were supported through permanent
legal custodianship subsidies, and that was
totalling $34 million, with the Federal share
being 10. So again, Pennsylvania's investment
from our State and counties is great compared to
those Federal funds that we receive on behalf of
the children and families we serve.
Thank you.
DEPUTY SECRETARY MORRIS: Good morning.
Thank you so much, Chairwoman Watson,
Chairman Conklin, esteemed members of the
Committee, as well as staff, for this
opportunity to testify on behalf of the Office
of Child Development and Early Learning, OCDEL.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
65
OCDEL is a dual deputate office. We report to
the Departments of Education and Human Services.
I was really heartened to hear
Ms. Powell say that she was able to access Early
Head Start as well as Early Intervention, two
programs under the auspices of OCDEL, two
high-quality early learning programs that are
essential to putting children on the road to
success.
So Pennsylvania is a recognized leader
in providing access to early care and education
settings for families and children that really
meet their needs. Through the Commonwealth's
subsidized child-care program, Child Care Works,
low-income working families meeting income
thresholds of 200 percent of the Federal poverty
level may receive financial support to assist
with the cost of child care, and that includes
families in which the primary caregiver is the
grandparent.
In 2016-'17, approximately 200,000 slots
for children aged six weeks to 13 years old were
supported through the Child Care Development
Block Grant in the Commonwealth. But decades of
research show that stable high-quality early
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
66
care in education provide both an important work
support as well as laying a critical foundation
for children's later success in life, including
healthy social, physical and mental
developments.
Providers and caregivers who regularly
care for young children can have a positive
impact on children, but instability and the
availability of child care can be a detriment to
positive child outcomes. I think we all know
this. Daily instability, including
unpredictable routines, structure and frequent
changes in teachers are linked with poor child
well-being and teacher-child interactions.
And multiple care arrangements, even
across a short period of time, are linked with
negative child behavior and cognitive outcomes.
Recognizing that a more stable experience
benefits all children in child care, regardless
of their primary caregiver, but particularly for
children whose parent or caretaker has been
displaced, OCDEL is proposing to promulgate
subsidized child-care regulations that allow
continuity of care for the remainder of a
child's required 12-month eligibility period
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
67
during a break-in or following the loss of work,
education or training.
The child will receive a full 12 months
of eligibility for child-care subsidy, as long
as family income does not exceed 85 percent of
the State medium income, which in Pennsylvania
is $90,821 for a family of four, and family
assets that don't exceed $1 million.
When a child's home life is in flux, a
level of stability in the child-care arrangement
becomes much more valuable for the family.
Instability in the child's care arrangement
further disrupts caregiver employment and
education, harms children and runs counter to
nearly all of the purposes of the Child Care
Development Block Grant.
Therefore, the proposed rulemaking also
includes the continuity of care for the
remainder of a child's required 12-month
eligibility period, when there is a change in
the child's primary parent or caretaker. This
ensures continuity of care for children
experiencing the trauma of a parent or caretaker
leaving the home for reasons including: death,
inpatient treatment centers, incarceration or
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
68
military deployment.
The Child Care Development Block Grant
prohibits DHS from acting on information between
12-month redetermination periods that would
reduce the family subsidy, unless the
information provided indicates the family's
income exceeds that 85 percent of State's medium
income. Supporting the family structure in home
and community-based settings is foundational to
holistic and healthy family development,
including families whose primary caregiver is a
grandparent.
Pennsylvania's family centers are
community-based places that provide a variety of
services for children and family members to
become healthy, safe, self-sufficient and
prepare children to succeed in school and
beyond. Family Centers have helped
Pennsylvania's families build protective
factors, including social connections, concrete
supports, knowledge of parenting and
child development, child social and emotional
competence, and resilience that results in
positive outcomes, as well as connecting
caregivers with one another to really build a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
69
community infrastructure around families.
Family Centers are an early childhood
parent education and family support program
serving families throughout pregnancy until
their child enters kindergarten. Each Family
Center offers a core set of services, such as
the Parents as Teachers Home Visiting Program,
to provide caregivers with knowledge and
resources to prepare their children for a
stronger start in life and greater success in
school and beyond.
Parents as Teachers defines parents to
include: people with relationships to children
which may be biological, adoptive or foster,
grandparents, older siblings or other adults who
create a family for a child. In 1992, the first
Pennsylvania-funded Parents as Teachers programs
were implemented in 13 newly-created family
centers by the Pennsylvania Department of
Education.
Today, Parents as Teachers is being used
by 43 family centers and in other settings,
for a total of 70 organizations with 95 program
sites. Parents as Teachers is federally
recognized as meeting rigorous standards for
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
70
effectiveness and encourages active parent
participation, regardless of how that parent is
defined, in advisory committees and provides
opportunities for leadership in the community.
Pennsylvania Family Centers are funded
with $3,258,000 in State dollars through a
DHS line item, Community-Based Family Centers.
And State funds match $5,783,000 in Federal
funding through Title 4 B Part 2 and
Community-Based Child Abuse Prevention.
Additionally, many family centers augment their
funding with contracts with county Children &
Youth agencies and from foundations and other
fund development activities.
Research shows that Family Centers, by
using the Parents as Teachers model, accomplish
several key outcomes, including: preventing
child abuse and neglect, increasing child
development skills and school readiness and
improving maternal and child health. Currently,
there are 31 Family Center Grants, and close to
7,000 families were served in 2015-16.
OCDEL also provides funding to local
communities for evidence-based home visiting
models. In 2009, through the Maternal Infant
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
71
Early Childhood Home Visiting Federal funding
opportunity, OCDEL expanded services to
vulnerable low-income pregnant women, infants,
toddlers and preschoolers through four
evidence-based home visiting models.
Local communities completed a community
needs assessment and applied to provide Early
Head Start, Healthy Families America and for the
expansion of Nurse-Family Partnership or Parents
as Teachers. In 2009, as well as 2014, OCDEL
also submitted and received Early Head Start
funding through the Federal Office of Head
Start.
Home visiting provides comprehensive
support services based on the selected model,
and services include: parenting, healthy growth
and child development, support of social systems
and strengthening families. There are 31 local
home-visiting implementing agencies, and they're
projected to serve 2,378 families in 2017-18.
In addition to the expansion of
services, this initiative includes supportive
practices to assist with the prevention of child
abuse and the early identification of children
with special needs or developmental delays and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
72
supports for multi-generational families. And
in the case of Early Head Start and Parents as
Teachers, it would support Kinship Care
families.
I want to thank the Committee for your
continued support of children and families who
are achieving permanency through lasting
connections as well as gaining positive outcomes
in child development and developing stable,
caring relationships, regardless of who their
primary caregiver is.
Thank you so much.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you,
Secretary. I have to turn this on, but thank
you, Secretary Morris.
And indeed, if the other testifiers want
to come up and grab a chair so we can ask
questions, I think our group has questions to
ask.
Mr. Grasa, will you write down, so we
don't forget everybody's name as to who wants a
question?
I would like to just -- I'm not sure if
it's a question I'm about to make or a
statement, but I would suggest that what this
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
73
hearing is about -- and we thank you for that --
is to come up with ideas that we will turn into
legislation, solutions, changes. I had hoped,
too, that indeed the broad base that we had come
and testify, you would learn from each other and
this would be a beginning for us because I
absolutely believe that this is beyond
phenomenon. This is simply a change in family
structure, and it needs to be accounted for in
order for children to succeed.
And constantly, I'm the one who says,
I'll give children a voice. And I know most of
my colleagues here have done that, I think some
of them for a very long time, because they don't
really have a voice. And it was important for
you to be here, Mrs. Powell, because
grandparents need a voice, too, in this.
In other words, it isn't a solution that
six legislators from various parts of the
State -- so we accounted for the geography --
were going to come together and figure out. It
will take a lot of us together. It has nothing
to do with how you are politically registered.
It does have to do a little bit with
geography because there are different things,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
74
and that was something I was going to get into
and ask, to account for the fact that what I'm
hearing from my good friend, Representative
Pashinski, in his area, at least grandparents
saw a need and got together. There isn't such a
thing -- I'm in the southeast, lots of people,
but if anything, I would think it's gone the
other way, where a lot of times, people, they
handle it, but they don't want you to know
because they're embarrassed that this has
happened to their children. They see it somehow
as their fault, and so they want to take care of
their grandchildren.
I also think, quite frankly,
Secretary Morris, that I know we've got
educators who know the situation, but they kind
of overlook some things and we get this child
registered in school beyond that 60 days, but I
think there are technical things that we should
be able to change. And if we pull it all
together, ladies and gentlemen, I think we'll
have a series of bills that will work on this
segment of our population and protect this
segment of children along the way.
So that's why we have the Executive
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
75
Director from the Aging Committee here, because
we see it as something, between us, we can work
together, and we will make lives better for
those who are the grandparents, but lives better
for those who are the children. So with that as
the background, I would like to then start.
Representative Conklin, you had a
question, a comment?
MINORITY CHAIRMAN CONKLIN: Thank you.
Mrs. Powell, I wanted to thank you for
giving your story. You're about the same age as
I am, and it's only by the grace of God that my
children are able to be self-sufficient, but I
do have family members who have gone through
what you have gone through. My heart goes out
to you.
My question is more for Brian and Cathy
and Suzann. And this is a rather difficult
question to ask because it really isn't a
solution, but you may have an idea.
As many of us talk about our past
lives -- I was the county commissioner. Now, to
most people, if you're in a small County, not a
lot happens. If you're in a big county,
somebody does something. Or if you're in Centre
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
76
County, that means you're medium-sized so you
had to do everything. And the reason I ask this
question, we oversee the jails. We oversee
Office of Aging, we oversee Children & Youth,
Transportation, across the board. And there was
this term used that we don't use in the public
very often. I shouldn't use it on television.
But many times we would sit down with
the Department heads such as yourself, and we
would call it the latest line item. And the
reason we would call that, whether flattering or
not, we realized that the grandfather or
grandmother was in jail. The father of the
child who wouldn't be married was also in the
jail or in the system, had been arrested
multiple times. The mother had been arrested
for drugs or maybe shoplifting, and they were
expecting a child that was to be shortly born
and that would come into the system, because
quickly, it was in services across the board.
And I know it goes against parents know
best, you know, the political term as many of us
used to say, but if everybody in my position
believes the parents know best, maybe we should
do the Parent Swap Program, where these parents
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
77
can have your children, you can take theirs.
This is a long-winded question, probably
a short answer, but not easily done. In many of
these cases, we've already identified when this
child is born that they are going to struggle
through life, starting early. Is there any way
legally that you could think of that we could
begin these early intervention programs with
because we know, as soon as they're born, we
know, because of the past, because of the
grandparents, because of the parent, the uncles,
the aunts, that their chances of making it are
much lower than what many children are.
Is there anything that you can think of
that we could do without taking away somebody's
rights or a way that we can get these in early
intervention. I know that we have Head Start
programs. We have places like Cen-Clear Child
Services, places that get involved, but it takes
the parent to get involved with them, which
works out great, but any other ideas that you
all would have?
DEPUTY SECRETARY UTZ: There is -- I
think one of the things that we're seeing in the
field of, you know, child welfare and human
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
78
services in general is that in the past, there
wasn't the evidence-based, right? So we've
always had evidence-based programs and solutions
and treatments in the science field, right? But
in Human Services, we haven't necessarily had
those.
And so I think we're beginning to really
use the information and that science and
evaluation to our benefit to be able to say,
what could we do differently, and are there
evidence-based program that work with particular
populations and individuals? One of the things
that is merging right now -- emerging, sorry --
in our field is what's called predictive
analytics. And so they use it in other
industries.
We actually engaged in a conversation
through one of our foundation partners that the
airline industry uses in how you can potentially
pre vent other plane crashes from occurring. So
we're actually trying to do something similar.
We have a few counties that are really
interested.
We've been paying attention to
predictive analytics and really being able to
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
79
say, if you have a certain set of
characteristics and you may then come to the
child welfare door, is there other early
intervention that could happen to prevent that?
So there's kind of a lot of folks,
there's probably some controversy, and folks
will look at it is, are you doing something
that's targeted; are you particularly
identifying people? I think we're looking at,
is it something that, you know, just brings to
light more poverty-type situations, but there
are things I think we're trying to look at.
And so that's a probably long answer,
too, to say there are things on the horizon. I
think we're all trying to figure out whether
they work and what are the pros and cons because
it's something that's really new in Human
Services.
MR. BORNMAN: The only thing I would
add, I agree with the predictive analytics. The
modeling behind that has done some very good
work in terms of lowering mortality rates in the
areas that it's been implemented. Mostly
notable, I think Los Angeles County, a number of
years back, was really where it came out big and
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
80
had a tremendous reduction in, particularly,
young children dying with involvement with the
Children & Youth.
But beyond that, I have seen a few cases
in which there's been so much and so frequent
involvement with a particular family that when a
child is born, there was sufficient grounds to
actually pursue dependency right at birth, based
upon history. But it generally had to be fairly
recent history and of a nature that it's not
likely to have changed since the agency's last
involvement because, obviously, the longer it
goes time wise, the less value there is to that
history.
DEPUTY SECRETARY MORRIS: And I think to
that end, considering early learning as a
resource, we do have evidence-based home
visiting models, but they're not reaching nearly
enough families. And to the point of where they
are being allocated, we depend on communities to
tell us what their needs are.
But being able to use something like
predictive analytics and data that will allow us
to have a much more targeted approach, to have
an evidence-based home visiting program, such as
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
81
Nurse Family Partnership that works with parents
as they're pregnant even, before birth, can
provide an intervention, I think, that can
really support a holistic family and stable
environment for children as they're growing.
But none of that is going to work if the
programs under my auspices aren't speaking to
one another. So home visiting, while it can
certainly support the holistic family
environment, we know that children need to
continue to learn and grow and thrive. So to
the end that OCDEL can support all of our
programs in working with one another so that we
have a life course option for children, so as
they're moving from home visiting into whether
it's Early Head Start or a child-care program or
Pre-K Counts, those adults in that child's life
are connected and speaking the same language and
are really building a support wall around the
children, because we know that's ultimately what
breaks the cycle, is when children have the
healthiest possible start that they can have,
but that it continues well into K to 12, as
well.
So we're really thinking in terms of
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
82
integration and alignment at OCDEL, but beyond,
as well, in working with our partners in DHS and
are really challenging ourselves to ways we can
do that at the local level.
MINORITY CHAIRMAN CONKLIN: Thank you.
Thank you, Madam chairwoman.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: All right.
Thank you. You sparked a million questions, but
I'm supposed to be responsible. I'm the
Chairperson, so I'm not asking.
We'll move to Representative Madden.
REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you,
Chairwoman.
I would first like to say thank you to
Mrs. Powell for her passionate and informative
testimony. If I may share a quick personal
story, my mother struggled with alcohol
addiction, and by six months, I was being raised
by my father and my grandmother. And I can tell
you that your granddaughter will be forever
grateful to you and your grandfather -- husband,
I'm sorry -- and her grandfather.
But your testimony sparked a question in
my mind for Secretary Utz, actually. So
Mrs. Powell talked -- spoke about, you know, not
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
83
really being able to get the services that she
felt she needed through Children & Youth and
that there was a real disconnect to, you know,
the statistics and the things that you and
Secretary Morris were speaking about.
How do you think we can, you know, get
down to the local Children & Youth and those
counselors and provide them with more
information and resources and training, so that
when Mrs. Powell goes for help, she's feeling
like she's actually receiving all the knowledge
and all the information and counseling that she
can get to help her?
DEPUTY SECRETARY UTZ: Yes. And I think
that's one of the things that we want to talk
about, right? So I think that anybody who calls
a Children & Youth agency should at least be
able to get some answers to their questions,
right? So I actually, as she was testifying, I
had tons of questions for her, but I know that
that's normally what we do, so I'm going to have
to talk to her after the hearing.
But I think a lot of what we have to do
was determine, is it placed, is the best place
for this program to be housed in our county
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
84
Children & Youth agencies or is it somewhere
else?
So we've heard a little bit about
Kinship Navigator programs, right, and other
community-based programs. So is there a way to
build the same type of program or the structure
that we want outside of the Children & Youth
agency?
They could talk to one another. We
could provide support, but I think that even she
talked about some of the concerns with making
phone calls to Children & Youth, the stigma,
right, that goes along with that, the challenges
that are there because if you're coming in to be
involved with our system, there are then the
parameters.
You have to be approved as a foster
parent. She mentioned, you know, the six-month
period of time to be able to get that, and it's
not just one agency. So I think that we
recognize, as well, she expressed some concerns
about, you know, public benefits. And so having
that all in the Children & Youth agency may or
may not be the best place. And I think that's
one of the things we would want to look at.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
85
We've heard about Kinship Navigator
Programs. We've heard that they have worked and
they've been very successful. So is there a way
to start in a, perhaps, a structure like a
Kinship Navigator program, but then reach out to
the Children & Youth agency if something goes a
little bit farther down the road?
So I think there are a lot of things
that we could do and then engage in
conversations. And I'm not sure, we always kind
of look to one agency to fix all of the
problems, but I think it's much beyond that,
right?
So we've talked about a lot of this is
emerging and going much broader than just the
substance use disorder, right? It's starting
there, but it's having ripple effects across the
board. So how do we make sure that there's a
coordinated approach that's occurring and that
we're just not going to one agency to say, here,
you fix this solution?
How do we make sure that as we build
this, we build it as a community program that is
going to meet all of the needs?
Because the legal services, you know,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
86
Brian talked a lot about that and how families
need the support from legal services aid. We've
heard that there's a lot of, you know, attorneys
that are doing pro bono work that might not be
tapped. And so Children & Youth agencies aren't
going to have all of that knowledge. And
they're, you know, dealing with a wide range of
information.
So is there a way to make sure that we
have community programs that are going to build
that?
So we might have to establish it outside
of just the Children & Youth agency.
REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Right. And as
you're speaking -- as you're speaking, I'm
thinking about Mrs. Powell's testimony and about
how, you know, that maybe Area on Aging is
getting into the picture, too, because there are
so many grandparents who are raising their
children.
And in my district, in the same
building, Area on Aging is right next door to
Children & Youth. So maybe it would be a thing
where grandparents are taking their
grandchildren to senior discount dinners, you
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
87
know, that they have throughout. We hear about
how uplifting and encouraging it is for seniors
to be exposed to young children, so we could
really truly make it a community effort to -- it
takes a village -- to raise these children, if
we all thought out of the box and how to best
serve these children and the grandparents
raising them.
Thank you for your testimony. Thank you
to everyone for coming out today.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON:
Representative Solomon.
REPRESENTATIVE SOLOMON: Thank you,
Madam Chair. Thanks, everybody.
Representative Pashinski had mentioned
some statistics. Do you know, in Pennsylvania,
how we track them and whether we tease out those
grandparents that are cohabitating versus those
that are just providing child care in PA?
REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: I think it's
multiple groups of sources where we're getting
this information, and we're trying always to
verify it. I think the main point that has to
be made here is that we're now finally coming to
the point that this is a problem. And I think
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
88
there are a lot of grandparents that have not
revealed themselves, as Chairman Watson and
Chairman Conklin had indicated earlier, that,
you know, there are some people that are just to
embarrassed to reveal their issue and they try
to deal with it alone.
I think the testimony by Mrs. Powell has
given you a bird's view. You are right there.
She has experienced all of this. This is the
same kind of testimony I've received from
countless other grandparents in a similar
situation. And she has identified all the
various hurdles, the roadblocks that we have.
Mr. Bornman recognized those in the
legal system. Now, the question is, can we find
the solutions to those roadblocks? But keeping
in mind, hopefully, what I tried to emphasize
earlier, you know, the law was created based
upon two loving parents that still wanted to
love and nurture their children, that couldn't
because of a circumstance. The opioid situation
has changed that dramatically. They physically
can't; mentally can't. So now the burden is now
on the State.
We talked about Nurse Family Partners.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
89
We talked about all of those outstanding
programs that work. And the Nurse Family
Partner, taking it from prenatal into postnatal
and then into early intervention, pre-K. We
know that those prevention programs work. We
don't have enough resources for everything.
You know, we as State legislators have
to try to figure out where we can come up with
enough dollars. What I'm hoping comes out of
this hearing is that each one of us is going to
be very open and frank relative to, what do you
need, Mr. Bornman, what has to change?
Deputy Secretary Utz, say it as it is,
you don't have enough money for this, you don't
have enough people in this area. What do we
have to do? Because what we're trying to do is
prevent these kids from then becoming a larger
burden.
Now, many of us in here are old enough
to remember the FRAM oil filter commercial.
Does anybody remember the FRAM oil
filter commercial?
Well, an oil filter is really important
to the health of your automobile engine, or any
kind of engine. The advertisement was, you can
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
90
pay me now or pay me later. And the oil filter
was, say, $10. You can pay me $10 to preserve
your engine or you can pay me $3,000 to fix your
engine. This is where we are.
I think we've heard enough testimony,
and I think we have enough people -- and of
course your good leadership, on behalf of
Chairwoman Watson and Chairman Conklin and all
of the members here. I think everybody cares.
How are we going to fix it?
What are the things we need to do?
Where are the dollars going to come
from?
How do we prioritize it?
And also, the realization that we never
have enough resources for everything, but we can
certainly give it a good try.
REPRESENTATIVE SOLOMON: Thank you.
Mr. Bornman, you had talked about the
Kinship Navigator Program in other States. I'm
just interested how that works. What are the
qualifications of the folks that you're calling
into?
And then, how long do they stay with the
family? And is it one point of contact?
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
91
So will one person at that one agency be
kind of the point of contact and then navigate
those persons through State -- other State
agencies?
MR. BORNMAN: I can tell you that it
really varies state to state, in kind of what
that looks like. But in general, the theory and
the concept behind it is that it's clearing
house. And the level of ongoing involvement is
really going to based upon how the particular
program is set up.
I would have envisioned, for
Pennsylvania, something along the lines of a
Kinship Navigator Program that acts as a
clearing house, but also has that legal
component tied to it. Because as I mentioned,
just that opportunity to sit down and speak with
an attorney to really kind of understand what
the parameters of your rights are goes a long
way towards easing the discomfort and the
concerns that arise out of those types of
informal custodial arrangements.
I think that in and of itself would be
an invaluable piece to it.
REPRESENTATIVE SOLOMON: Thank you.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
92
And Mrs. Powell, I just wanted to ask
you, you had a whole host of issues you brought
up, improvements. If there was just one, one
thing that we could do here in the legislature,
what would be the first thing?
MRS. POWELL: Be proactive.
REPRESENTATIVE SOLOMON: In what way?
MRS. POWELL: Don't go back to try to
fix a problem, try to prevent the problems; get
out of the box; communicate with each other.
Stop looking at the people who are trying to
help fix the problem as your resource, open up
the resources you already have. Base it on the
need; the need is with the child.
REPRESENTATIVE SOLOMON: Thank you,
everyone. Thank you, Madam Chair.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Yes. And I
think, Representative Pashinski, you had the
bill, the Navigator Program. So why don't you
-- I think he would have some more information
for Representative Solomon.
REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: I just wanted
to make sure that we understand, the Kinship
Navigator was primarily a source where
grandparents could relate to that source, but
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
93
that was generally a computer. We did the same
thing here.
When the Senate didn't pass what we were
proposing, we then organized our own computer
service so that our grandparents could go on my
website and be able to navigate through that.
It's not actually like we're having a person
that will be your chief counselor and will take
you through the source.
So I want to make sure that it's clear.
We are now, on our own, trying to take what we
have on the network and try to put it in a
booklet form, because, again, most -- many
grandparents don't have a computer, many don't
know how to operate it. So we're trying to find
other ways that we can get the information to
them.
Again, as Representative Watson pointed
out, in the northeast, we at least have a
community network, a support system, where then,
when I get a call from grandparents that are
having difficulty, I will refer them to certain
people in the district that will then help them.
But, you know, the idea is to demonstrate that
this is not just in the northeast, it's all over
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
94
Pennsylvania, and as we said, all over the
United States. So it's incumbent upon us to
address that, you know, with a lot more fervor.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you
for adding to that. And yes, I think we need to
remember that, as good as we think, oh, we can
put everything on the computer, lots of people
are not computer literate. It's expensive to
have that wireless in your home. So we need to
have ways and systems, and certainly, I think
your group serves as a model, that even
regionally, we need to start networking people
together.
Representative Conklin and I both have
had experience in county government. I just
said I don't think Children & Youth would be --
to house all of this, but a county courthouse
could house all of this and be the focal point
for, muck like OCDEL does, combining resources
together and serving as a point where you could
go.
I particularly like the idea of a
resource book with a basic framework that would
be statewide, but then have the specifics for
your local county where you go, and certainly a
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
95
list of attorneys or your local Bar association,
that they have a group that's ready and can
advise on domestic relations issues, and they'll
work pro bono and set something up. Gee, and
where might you meet? You can meet at the
county courthouse.
And commissioners are responsible --
Mr. Bornman, I was secretly getting to you -- to
take that back. But indeed, having -- I was the
deputy administrator for a county commissioner,
so I'm familiar, but they are responsible under
the law, under the county code for the welfare
of children, Children & Youth.
This, in some ways, would fall under it.
We would give them a place to be. That gives a
focal point to our grandparents of where they
can go. And following your model, which is a
good one, we set up services there or at least
people then that they can contact because
support groups are good.
And I think in thinking out of the box,
Mrs. Powell, I would like to say that I also
think we involve a network of churches that have
outreach and groups like that, civic groups,
certainly our PTAs in schools, if you have that,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
96
that they become more aware and kind of serve as
a focal point to pull people together because we
need to get rid of the stigma of, well, then,
something went wrong in your family.
No, nothing went wrong in your family.
These things happen, which is frightening.
Representative Conklin said it best, but by the
grace of God. And that's true, God, fate, I'm
not sure why, if you're spared or not. But we
all know somebody in our extended family that
hasn't been, particularly with the opioid
crisis. And the sad part is, we are talking
about it and it still grows. That's the scary
part.
Children still need that voice, and they
need to be protected. I would argue that we
need a special category for these grandparents
because they're not foster parents. They need
their own ways. Legal has to respond to that to
give them greater access or control, without
declaring my son to be unfit or whatever it
might be. I think we should be doing those
things, recognizing it, and then the system
works better.
And I am sure that our -- I think our
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
97
last person with questions is
Representative Toohil, who always has more ideas
than I do. So Representative Toohil, go ahead.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHIL: Thank you,
Madam Chair. And thank you to
Representative Pashinski for championing this
cause. It's so important.
We hear, with the drug epidemic,
constantly, daily, these families that are in
crisis. And I think that the grandparents are a
great model of what's going on. And obviously
you have aunts and uncles that are stepping in,
family members that are stepping in with the
same issue. They're like, our kids are already
in college. And they're having to fight for
nieces and nephews, just like Lotte Powell.
Wonderful testimony. Thank you for
coming here and talking to us today. Because
really, only when you're living it can you
adequately convey to people what kind of issues
you're having. There's a -- so you have
families in crisis and then you have a lack of
communication. And the system is so complex, so
it's hard for the caseworker -- when you get a
caseworker -- they're not always able to say,
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
98
well, you know, it's going to go exactly like
this.
And sometimes I think they have to be
stand-offish, because caseworkers, at the same
time that they're dealing with the foster
family, they are also having to, on the other
side of things, try to provide, say, you're
supposed to go to this class, and you're
supposed go to these services, and you're
supposed to attend visitation. So you have
these caseworkers that are getting pulled in
both directions.
So you have the foster family situation,
the situation of parental rights and what the
parents need to be afforded, and the child just
gets lost in the mix. One thing I think our
Committee needs to look at is when you're
looking at OCDEL and early intervention and all
of those services, you have foster grandparents
that have no idea that they can get free
subsidized child care. If the foster
grandparents are living in the house, they might
be denied that.
And I think we need to look at, under
the CCIS child-care subsidy, that foster
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
99
children should just be immediately approved and
immediately able to go into zero to three early
intervention because they get all of these
experiences with children. They get the
stability of daycare and learning, and that's
why so many of them are developmentally delayed
because they've been pulled in and out of
school.
Sometimes the 7-year-olds, 10-year-olds,
they've missed I don't know how many days of
school. And foster parents don't know. So
there's a lack of written foster parent rights,
and I guess they can always go under the
auspices of best interest of the child, that if
it's the best interest of the child -- because
these foster grandparents are putting everything
out there, and then these cases will go on.
They'll languish for three years, and then a
putative father can come in three years later
and just upend everything. And the foster
grandparent doesn't have any first right of
refusal to say, like, hey, I've been here. I've
been doing this for the best interest of the
child.
So I think immediate child-care
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
100
subsidies. I'm just trying to process what
Lotte was kind of saying. And the foster parent
right, or foster grandparent rights, we need to
look at.
And even right now, as we're sitting
here, it's like one of the first day of summer
for so many foster parents and foster
grandparents. They're probably like -- the
children are out of school, and they're going to
go three months without, probably, summer camp
because nobody can afford it. Everybody is so
busy running between parental visitations and
court and caseworkers coming to your house, that
these kids are not getting counseling.
The, I think foster grandparents, you
just had to fight against your own child for
best interest of your grandchild. That's
traumatic and stressful, and you have your own
emotional issues because of that. And then you
have a child that could have been neglected, you
know, for three years living with drug addict
parents before they were able to get Children &
Youth to come in and help. So there needs to be
funding for all of this counseling.
There are victims. The children are
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
101
victims. They should be afforded counseling.
So there's a lot that we can do, I think, if we
break it out that way.
And I guess my question was for
Deputy Secretary Morris. Do you, under OCDEL,
do you deal with CCIS?
Because I guess nobody knows it's CCIS,
and now it's too late. The foster grandparents
just got their child, their grandchild, placed
with them; it's too late for them. Sometimes a
nice county will cover summer camp or child-care
services, and then you can apply and wait six
months for your CCIS to be approved.
DEPUTY SECRETARY MORRIS: So CCIS is
under OCDEL. We oversee all the CCIS agencies.
Just to clarify, a family can apply for a
child-care subsidy at any time of the year. It
does not have to be tied to the school year.
However, we do have a significant wait list for
eligible families.
Currently, we're at almost 13,000
families that qualify for child-care subsidy,
which means they have been determined eligible,
which means they're meeting either the work
requirement or the work and job training
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
102
requirement, which is required by the Federal
mandate of the Child Care Development Block
Grant, as well as the income threshold of being
200 percent or below the Federal poverty level.
So to that end, we do know we have a
great need, not just for our foster grandparents
and foster parents, but for our families as a
whole around child-care subsidy in the
Commonwealth. In terms of getting resources to
our grandparents and thinking proactively, I'd
be very interested to work with Ms. Powell to
learn more about how you were able to find out
about Early Head Start or child-care subsidy, if
you heard about that at all.
We are in the process right now of
rethinking of how we do business of child care
across the Commonwealth. We're getting ready to
release a competitive application for what we're
calling the Early Learning Resources Centers,
and really trying to think, from the experience
of the child of the family and of the caregiver.
The Early Learning Resources Centers
will be community level resources centers that
are meant to have a no wrong door approach for
families that are actively looking for any type
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
103
of support service that's in the early learning
spectrum, including early intervention for their
children. And that would be -- those
applications should be released, the RFA should
be released very shortly, with the idea that
they would roll out in 2018-'19, but I would be
very interested to hear your thoughts on that
application and how that could look at the
community level, in terms of making sure that
children are receiving the services that they so
sorely need and deserve.
REPRESENTATIVE TOOHIL: Excellent. We
like you already. If you want to provide us,
hopefully, with the people that are on the wait
list, that 13,000, and maybe how that number has
fluctuated over the past, like, 2-year period,
and just what that would cost us, it would be
wonderful.
If you can provide it in writing, then
maybe we could parse through it as a Committee.
DEPUTY SECRETARY MORRIS: I can
certainly provide that. I can tell you we're at
historic highs for the wait list. The wait list
has not been this high ever. And we have seen a
fluctuation where it's grown substantially over
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
104
the past six months. And so we try to track
trend. It's often hard to get down to what
exactly drives the wait list because it's a
mixed bag of reasons, but certainly we are
experiencing record highs in terms of how many
families are being determined eligible, but we
don't have the resources to meet that need.
And I can provide in writing what that
would cost.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: All right.
Thank you, Representative Toohil.
Last one, because we are under the gun
for time because session is about to start --
REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Thank you,
Madam Chairwoman.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON:
Representative Dan Miller.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Real quick with
it, I appreciate all of the testimony here
today. I just want to mention a couple of quick
things. We've heard a bunch of comments today,
you know, I would say that the overall -- we
have the best interest concern for the child,
and we also have the legal precedent of who has
parental rights.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
105
So the parental rights, both in our
statute and clearly identified through the
Supreme Court, is a guiding issue for us here
with how you're combining these things. You're
also, I think, dancing between two different
worlds.
I don't want to go through foster care;
I do want to go through foster care. And again,
whether we like it or not, this body has created
that difference and distinction with how it
attaches funding and how it attaches other
requirements, too. So there are too many of
them for me to say in a minute, but I would just
respectively say that there was no -- in my time
as a county solicitor -- there was no more
confusing or complicated cases than dealt with
grandparent intervention in one way or the
other. They were the most confusing aspects to
parse our way through, in relation to who
actually had parental rights, and what the
government has to prove in order to impact,
impede or change those situations.
So for those of us who are always
interested, or in particular, recognize the
importance of parental rights, I would just
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
106
highlight that this is not a small issue.
The other thing that I'll quickly say to
it is funding across the board. The starting
caseworker in Allegheny County makes $28,000.
The parent advocates now, the parent advocates
who are in Allegheny County right now, do you
know how much the State pays or helps pay for
them? Nothing. Zero.
So I love the Kinship Navigator ideas.
I think that could be very helpful, and I
definitely think more information is important.
But just to emphasize the point that we have
here, established in our statute and in our law,
the importance of parental rights in deciding
when the government can intervene, but we do not
fund it at all.
So now we have these people -- you know,
if you can get away with making $37,000 maybe
out of law school starting over at the parent
advocates starting in Allegheny County,
congratulations. You've got $37,000 and a big
caseload to deal with.
So I just want to reference both points.
I apologize for the shortness of time with it,
and I appreciate the add-ons here at the end.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
107
But your issues -- and ma'am, thank you so much
for your testimony -- big impactful issues, that
to me, were just scratching the surface of how
to integrate and work between the non-dependency
world and the dependency world.
Thank you, Madam chairman.
MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you,
Representative.
And a big thank you to each of you for
your time, for your expertise, your willingness
to participate. And by the way, if you thought
this was a one-time deal, no. We'll be back
talking to each of you.
This Committee has taken this charge,
and you can see, will not let it go. It is,
like all of that spaghetti that somehow got
stuck at the bottom, but one by one, we're going
to pull those strands out of that pot and we
will fix things. Maybe not in my lifetime, but
we're going to fix them.
You have to fix it?
All right. We're going to fix it in my
lifetime, which would be very good.
But very seriously, we need to fix it
all for the children because these children need
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
108
a voice, and they need to be protected and safe
and in a permanent place where they can thrive.
Thank you very much.
(Whereupon, the hearing concluded at
11:00 a.m.)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
109
C E R T I F I C A T E
I hereby certify that the proceedings
are contained fully and accurately in the notes
taken by me on the within proceedings and that
this is a correct transcript of the same.
_______________________________
Tracy L. Markle, Court Reporter