collected topics debate

8/13/2019 Collected Topics Debate

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Lati Rinbochay:Oral Debate

Translated by Daniel Perdue based on Jeffrey Hopkinss classes

Jeffrey Hopkins, 1999. No portion may be reproduced without

written permission.


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Colors, White and ed

!pril ", 19#$

%ape &ide 1Jeffrey' He has a different format for (ettin( back to the route in which

one has accepted the basic conse)uence *that is, the +dod route.

-adhi inbochay /s whate0er is a color necessarily red

2pponent / accept the per0asion.

/t follows that whate0er is a color is necessarily red.

3 / accept it.

/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is

red because of bein( a color.

3 %he reason is not established.

/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is acolor because of bein( suitable as a hue.

3 Whate0er is suitable as a hue is not necessarily a color.

/t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color

because 5that which is suitable as a hue5 is the definition of color.

3 / accept that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.

/t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.

3 / accept it.

/t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a

color because of bein( suitable as a hue.3 / accept it.



3 / accept it.


not red because of bein( white.

3 Whate0er is white is not necessarily not red.

/t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red because

there is no common locus of the two, white and red.

3 %he reason that there is no common locus of the two, white andred, is not established.

/t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red

because the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.

Jeffrey He says that you could (o on to say that the reason is not

established here, but this is where the book stops and if you do (o on


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it will harm you. 7ou may (et confused.

3 / accept it.

/t follows that the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.

3 / accept it.

/t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red.

3 / accept it.

/t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red.

3 / accept it.



3 / accept it.



3 %here is no per0asion.

/t follows that whate0er is a color is not necessarily red.3 / accept it.

%sa8 !ma:in(8 ;inished8< What is the difference between bein( red

and bein( a color

3 %here are three possibilities.

/t follows that there are not three possibilities =osit somethin(

which is both *&omethin( which is both is the sub4ect the color of a

ruby. %his implies that you can (o on to say that it is this and it is

that. /t will be alri(ht if you say, 5%he sub4ect, the color of a red

flower.5 ;or the second possibility whate0er is red is necessarily a

color %hen, whate0er is a color is not necessarily red. ;or instanceut when one debates one will say, 5/t

follows that it is not that5 or 5/t follows that that does not e6ist.5 2ne

is tryin( to trap the opponent. &o / say, 5/t follows that there are not

three possibilities. =osit somethin( which is both.5 2nce you say that

there are the three possibilities, the Challen(er will play with you and


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say that there are not the three possibilities He will say, 5=osit

somethin( which is both5 or 5=osit the three possibilities.5 He is 4ust

playin( out his trap on you.

?@>!%@ %W2

Challen(er /s whate0er is a color necessarily red

?efender / accept it

C /t follows that whate0er is a color is necessarily red

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is


? %he reason is not established.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a

color because of bein( suitable as a hue.

? %here is no per0asion.C &pell it out.

? Whate0er is suitable as a hue is not necessarily a color.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color

because 5suitable as a hue5 is the definition of color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hue is necessarily a color.

? / accept it.


color because of bein( suitable as a hue.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect is red because of bein( a color.

A / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect is not red because of bein( white.

? %here is no per0asion.

C &pell it out.

? Whate0er is white is not necessarily not red.

C /t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red because

there is no common locus of the two, white and red.

? %he reason is not established.C /t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red,

because the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the two, white and red, are mutually e6clusi0e.

? / accept it

C /t follows that there is no common locus of the two, white and red.


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? / accept it.

C /t follows that whate0er is white is necessarily not red.

? / accept it.



? / accept it.




C /t follows that whate0er is a color is not necessarily red.

? / accept it.

C What is the difference between the two, red and color

? %here are three possibilities.

C =osit somethin( which is both.

? %he sub4ect. the color of a ruby *pad ma ra (a+i kha do).C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby, is a color.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby, is a colorBB *%he ?efender has to

(i0e a reason now.

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a hue.


? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby. is red.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby. is redBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a red hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a red hue is necessarily red.

? / accept it.

C Now, which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the

other =osit somethin( which is one and not the other.

? Whate0er is red is necessarily a color. Whate0er is a color is not

necessarily red. %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch.


color.? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a white reli(ious conch, is a colorBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a hue.


? / accept it.



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not red.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect the color of a white reli(ious conch, is not redBB

? >ecause of bein( white.


? / accept it.

C Now, posit somethin( which is neither one nor the other.

? %he sub4ect, a pillar.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a pillar, is not a color.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, a pillar, is not a colorBB

? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a hue is necessarily not a

color.

? / accept itC /t follows that the sub4ect, a pillar, is not red.

? / accept it

C %he sub4ect, a pillar, is not redBB

? >ecause of not bein( a color.

C /t follows that whate0er is not a color is necessarily not red.

? / accept it.

inbochay %hat is the way. %here are three possibilities.

!pril , 19#$ probablyecause of bein( suitable as a primary hue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a primary hue, then it is

necessarily a primary color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud,

that it is a cloud color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud, it is a cloud

colorBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a cloud hue.C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a cloud hue, then it is

necessarily a cloud color.

? / accept it.

C Now, posit somethin( which is a primary color and is not a cloud

color.

? %here is somethin( which is a primary color and is not a cloud

colorecause it is white.

C /t follows that if somethin( is white, then it is necessarily a primary

color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white flower,

that it is not a cloud color.

? / accept it.C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of a white flower, it is not a

cloud colorBB

? >ecause it is a flower color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is a flower color. then it is necessarily

not a cloud color.

? / accept it.


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C Now, posit somethin( which is a cloud color and is not a primary

color.

? %here is somethin( which is a cloud color and is not a a primary

colorecause it is suitable as a cloud hue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a cloud hue, then it is

necessarily a cloud color.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of an oran(e cloud,

that it is not a primary color.? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of an oran(e cloud, it is not a

primary colorBB

? >ecause it is a secondary color.

C /t follows that if somethin( is a secondary color, then it is

necessarily not a primary color.

? / accept it.

C Now, posit somethin( which is neither one nor the other.

? %here is somethin( which is neither a cloud color nor a primary

colorecause it is not suitable as a primary hue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is not suitable as a primary hue, then it

is necessarily not a primary color.

? / accept it.C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, the color of smoke, that it is

not a cloud color.

? / accept it.

C With respect to the sub4ect, the color of smoke, it is not a cloud

colorBB

? >ecause it is not suitable as a cloud hue.


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C /t follows that if somethin( is not suitable as a cloud hue, then it is

necessarily not a cloud color.

? / accept it. %he color of sunli(ht is a color of illumination, but

whate0er is a color of illuminatin( need not be the color of sunli(ht.

%here is the color of the illumination of li(htnin( and the color of

illumination of moonli(ht which

are not colors of sunli(ht.

/n collo)uial %ibetan we say, 5%hen...5 *anBnos, deBnas, but when

debatin( we say, 5Now,...5 *da as in the e6pression, 5Now, it follows

that it is not so.5

/n trainin( new monks they are always first tau(ht to recite the

debates out loud because that brin(s e0erythin( to(ether. /f one 4ust

reads, the meanin( does not come to(ether and e0erythin( remainsscattered.

When monks are debatin(, they clap their hands to(ether. %he

ri(ht hand is method and the left hand is wisdom. %he clappin( of the

hands to(ether symboli:es a union of method and wisdom. /n

dependence upon the practice of a path of a union of method and

wisdom one is liberatin( oneself from all of cyclic e6istence and

drawin( others up to the path of omniscience. %here are 0essels or

channels of wisdom in the wrists, and when one claps these ha0e to

touch. When these two channels of wisdom meet, this (enerates

wisdom. %hat is its symboli:ation.

When you practice debate' you should learn how to clap in this

way. 2nly the Challen(er claps his hands durin( the debate, and he

only claps once at the end of whate0er he is statin( to the ?efender.

2f course, there is no fault in knowin( how to clap in debate. %hen if

you ha0e to do it somewhere, you will know how. 2therwise, / doubt

that it is suitable e0erywhere. =eople mi(ht think that it is 0ery

beautiful. %here are schools of definitions bein( established in 0arious

places like &wit:erland, ;rance, and so forth. /f you (o to these

places, you will ha0e to know how to clap your hands to(ether indebate. 2therwise, you 4ust will not know it.

;rom %ape &ide F of !pril #. 19#$ecause of bein( white.


? / accept it.

=rocedure %wo

C /s whate0er is a color necessarily red


C /t follows that whate0er is a color is not necessarily red.

? / accept it.

C /f there is no per0asion, then what is the difference between those

two


!t this point the debate proceeds as before *see pp. when the

relationships between the two principals of the debate are posited and

debated.

-ati inbochay has presented two new modes of procedure thesecond of which has two types. %he first new procedure is that in

which the ?efender accepts the basic conse)uence when it is first

stated. %hen after the Challen(er leads the ?efender back to the

second statement of the basic conse)uence, they follow the route in

which the ?efender )uestions the establishment of the reason in the

basic conse)uence. %his procedure is 4ust as before e6cept that the


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? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a red cloth hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a red cloth hue is

necessarily not the color of red cloth.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is not a color.

? Why

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is a color.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is a colorBB

? >ecause of bein( white.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is white.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a white shirt, is whiteBB

? >ecause of bein( suitable as a white hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a white hue is necessarilywhite.

? / accept it.

C Now then *+o na is whate0er is red necessarily the color of red

cloth


C =osit somethin( that is red and is not the color of red clothecause of not bein( suitable as a ruby hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily


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not the color of a ruby.

? / accept it.

C What is the difference between the two, red color and the color of a

ruby


C /t follows that there are not three possibilities. =osit somethin(

which is both a red color and the color of a rubyecause of bein( suitable as a ruby hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily the

color of a ruby.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the !merican

(o0ernment, is red.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment, is

redBB

? >ecause of bein( a particularity of red.

C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of red is necessarily red.

? / accept it.

C Which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the other

=osit somethin( which is one and not the other.

? Whate0er is the color of a ruby is necessarily red. Whate0er is red

is not necessarily the color of a ruby. %he sub4ect, the color of a red

flower.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is red.? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is redBB

? >ecause of bein( a particularity of red.

C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of red is necessarily red.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a red flower, is not the color


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(o0ernment.

C /t follows the whate0er is not suitable as a hue of a ruby of the

!merican (o0ernment is necessarily not the color of a ruby of the

!merican (o0ernment.

? / accept it.

C =osit somethin( that is neither.

? %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color

of a ruby.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color of a rubyBB

? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a ruby hue.

C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a ruby hue is necessarily

not the color of a ruby.

? / accept it.C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color

of a ruby of the !merican (o0ernment.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, the color of purified (old, is not the color of a ruby of

the !merican (o0ernmentBB

? >ecause of not bein( suitable as a hue of a ruby of the !merican

(o0ernment.

C /t follows that whate0er is not suitable as a hue of a ruby of the

!merican (o0ernment is necesassarily not the color of a ruby of the

!merican (o0ernment.

? / accept it. C /s whate0er is a horse necessarily a white horse


C =osit somethin( which is a horse and is not a white horseecause of bein( a particularity of horse.

C /t follows that whate0er is a particularity of horse is necessarily ahorse.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, a black horse, is not a white horse.

? / accept it.

C %he sub4ect, a black horse, is not a white horseBB

? >ecause of not bein( a person desi(nated in dependence upon any


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C /t follows that white paper is not white.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that somethin( which is paper and which is white does

not e6ist.

? / accept it.

C 7our assertion is< finished8 /t follows that white paper does not

e6ist.

? Why

C /t follows that white paper does e6ist.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that white paper does not e6ist because somethin( which

is paper and is also white does not e6ist. /t follows that a white horse

does not e6ist because somethin( which is a horse and is also white

does not e6ist. &omethin( which is paper and is also white does not

e6ist because the two, paper and white, are mutually e6clusi0e. /tfollows that it is so because *1 whate0er is paper is necessarily an

ob4ect of touch and *" whate0er is white is necessarily a color.

&earch it out. /n0esti(ate it -earn it with the easy thin(s. When

you know the si(ns, definitions, di0isions, and so on of the easy topics,

then later on it will be easy also. Continuin( %ape &ide from !pril

1G, 19#$ecause it is suitable as a secondary hue.

C /t follows that if somethin( is suitable as a secondary hue, then it is

necessarily a secondary color.

? / accept it.

C Now, which is necessarily the other Which is not necessarily the

other =osit somethin( which is one and not the other.

? Whate0er is a cloud color is necessarily a secondary color.

Whate0er is a secondary color is not necessarily a cloud color. %he

sub4ect, the color of blueBblack smoke.

C /t follows that whate0er is a cloud color is necessarily a secondary

color.

? / accept it.C /t follows that the sub4ect, the color of a white cloud, is a secondary

color because of bein( a cloud color. 7ou asserted the reason and the

per0asion.

? / accept that the color of a white cloud is a secondary color


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secondary color, do not ha0e three possibilities.

? / accept it.

C Now, what is the difference between the two, cloud color and

secondary color

? %here are four possibilities.

C 7our assertion is< finished8

%he ne6t debate which was (i0en by -ati inbochay be(ins with a

)uote from Chapter /, &hloka 13, =ada ! of the %reasury of Inowled)e

*!bhidharmakosha of Easubandhu.

C =osit the two types of form as e6pressed in the passa(e


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? >ecause of bein( suitable as a hi(h form.

C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a hi(h form is necessarily a

hi(h form.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a low form.

? %here is a low formecause of bein( suitable as a low form.C /t follows that whate0er is suitable as a low form is necessarily a

low form.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that it is not so. =osit a lon( form.

? %here is a lon( form


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not possible.5 %he debate runs like this.ecause *1 those two are different and *" a common locus is not

possible.

C /t follows that if *1 those two are different and *" a common locus

is not possible then they are necessarily mutually e6clusi0e.

? / accept it.

enerally the definition of mutual e6clusion is 5*1 they aredifferent and *" a common locus is not possible.5 %hey are different.

%hey are di0erse or indi0idual. %hey are two ob4ects which do not

ha0e a common locus. ! common locus is not possible, it does not

e6ist.ecause *1 a common locus of those two is possible and *" there

is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion between

them


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two, pillar and pot, or the two, permanent phenomenon and thin(. !

common locus of either of these phenomenon with anythin( would not

be possible.ecause *1 a common locus of those two is possible and *" there

is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion between

them!%@ecause of bein( a thin(.

C /t follows that whate0er is a thin( is necessarily not a permanent

phenomenon.

? / accept it.

C =osit somethin( which is neither an established base nor a

permanent phenomenonecause of not bein( established by 0alid co(nition.

C /t follows that whate0er is not established by 0alid co(nition is

necessarily not an established base.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, the horn of a rabbit, is not a permanent

phenomenon.

!fter some hesitation on the part of the ?efender, in bochay said

that once whate0er is a permanent phenomenon is necessarily an

established base and you ha0e already said that the horn of a rabbit is

not an established base, how could you ha0e any )ualm that it mi(ht

be permanent @0erythin( that is a permanent phenomenon is an

established base and this is not an established base' therefore there

can be no doubt that it is not permanent.ecause of not bein( an e6istent.

C /t follows that whate0er is not an e6istent is necessarily not apermanent phenomenon.

? / accept it.

/ ha0e two important thin(s to e6plain to you. / ha0e to tell you some

history as back(round and then / will tell you those two thin(s. %he

dharma is somethin( to be known. 2nce kncwn if one practices it, it


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can help both superficially and deeply. @0en if you do not practice it,

if you do come to know the dharma, then in this lifetime you will not

be dull. !nd in the future lifetime you will not be dull either. @0en if

you do not *..., it will come that you seek to benefit people more and

you will ha0e less thou(ht to harm others. ;or a practitioner not only

will he or she help this and

future lifetimes, but a practitioner (ains happiness %ape for self

and country. *...chan(e to new tape

&ide 1F Howe0er, if one practices in accordance with >uddha+s

way+ there is no need e0en to e6plain that happiness

and comfort will come to that person and that country. / am not (oin(

to elaborate on this in detail, in brief the dharma is important. &ince

you know that it is important, your be(innin( your study of >uddhism

here in this uni0ersity will not only help you but will also help the

uni0ersity and it will help the coun try. Now / could e0en put mysi(nature to the fact that if it is studied well, it will spread and it will

help. He *referrin( to J.H. is makin( (reat effort to establish this

pro(ram for you. !nd if people come to ask you what it is like to study,

whether or not it is difficult to understand, whether it is e6plained

clearly, then you should not answer that it is difficult it is not

e6plained well, and that it is difficult to (et at. 7ou should say that it is

easy, it is easy to understand, if you understand it it will help. 7ou

should say thin(s like that. He is attemptin( to establish somethin(

that is 0ast. 7ou should not say thin(s that

contradict that because since it is dharma, as many people as enter

into it so much will it help. 7our altruistic thou(ht will help you and

due to their enterin( into the dharma, it will help them too. %hrou(h

this it will increase in the country more and more and then it will brin(

happiness and comfort to the country in (eneral. ;rom your own point

of 0iew / think that if you study and (et it strai(ht, then you should not

say that it is difficult but you should say that it is easy. /t will make it

easier for you and it will help others to enter into this teachin(. 7our

sayin( that it is easy will brin( (reat 0irtue and benefit to you. /n one

sense it helps becase they people will be meetin( with the >uddhistteachin( and in another sense it helps becuase it helps the country.

Dy two thin(s to e6plain are that. &o the two parts are that you

should study it well, you should en(a(e in it well, and secondly that

you should try to cause other people to en(a(e in it by sayin( that it is

easy. /f you say that it is difficult, then other people will feel inferior,

they will feel depressed, they will feel unable, and they will not ha0e a


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wish to look into it. %ry to e6plain that it is ad0anta(ious and that it is

0ery helpful. /f you do en(a(e in e6plainin( the many (ood reasons

for en(a(in( in the study then it will help them, help you, and help the

country. Whoe0er you meet with be they (reat people or small

people, it will help a lot. / had thou(ht to say this before but had

for(otten. /n our own monastery there would be thousands of monks.

=eople would come from our own areas our own lands from far away.

/f we had sat there tellin( them that it is 0ery difficult to read, it takes

a lot of effort, there is a lot of discomfort in this and that, then the

people would 4ust run away and (o back. Howe0er, when you tell

them that it is easy to do, it is 0ery comfortable, when you study the

books are 0ery interestin(, that there is a lot of ad0anta(e that you

can (et out of it, and then e0en that one can become a eshay or a

lama or an abbot, that one can (et a hi(h position, then the people

will think that they will do that. %hey ha0e a wish to (i0e it a try. 7oucould e6plain such thin(s also. /f you study a lot, since there are a lot

of uni0ersities you could (et a 4ob here and there and you could e0en

(et rich and a lot of dollars will come.

>ecause the mind is somethin( that can chan(e, it is 4ust ready to

(o this way or that way. %hat is the truth. /t is not a lie at all. /t is

true that there would be (reat benefit. /t is definite that there would

be (reat benefit if the countries of the West did pay a lot of attention

to >uddhism. &ince in all of these countries the people know a whole

lot of different thin(sBBscience, lan(ua(es, and so forth if it e0er

started anywhere, it would be 0ery easy for other countries to assume

it, to take it.

Whate0er you want to achei0e you can achei0e. /f you want to

become an emperor of the world you can become such. /f you want to

achei0e the position of >uddhahood, you can do so.

%he teacher and students ha0e to be a (roup. We must take care

in what we are sayin(.

New ?ebate

C /t follows that established by a 0alid co(ni:er is not the definition of

established base.? / accept it.

C /t follows that establishd by a 0alid co(ni:er is the definition of

established base because *1 there is ascertainment of the ei(ht

approaches of per0asion of a definition and definiendum with respect

to it and established base and *" it and established base are

established in the relationship of definition and definiendum.


70/246

? %he first reason is not established.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, established by a 0alid

co(ni:er, that there is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of

per0asion of a definition and definiendum with respect to it and

established base because the coe6tensi0enesses of bein(, not bein(,

e6istin(, and not e6istin( *as on p. 1G are established.

? / accept it.

C /t follows with respect to the sub4ect, established by a 0ald

co(ni:er, that there is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of

per0asion of a definition and definiendum with respect to it and

established base.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the first reason is established.

? / accept it.

C ;inished8? %he second reason is not established.


co(ni:er, that it is established in the relationship of definition and

definiendum with established base because in order to ascertain

established base with 0alid co(nition one must first ascertain it with

0alid co(nition.

? / accept it.


co(ni:er, that it is established in the relationship of definition and

definiendum with established base.

? / accept it.

C ;inished8 /t follows that the second reason is established.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, established by a 0alid co(ni:er, is the

definition of established base.

? Why


co(ni:er, that it is the definition of established base because *1 there

is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches of per0asion of a definitionand definiendum with respect to it and established base and *" it and

established base are established in the relationship of definition and

definiendum.


C /t follows that if *1 there is ascertainment of the ei(ht approaches

of per0asion of a definition and definiendum with respect to it and


71/246

established base and *" it and established base are established in the

relationship of definition and definiendum, then it is not necessarily

the definition of established base.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that the sub4ect, established by a 0alid co(ni:er, is not

the definition of established base.

? / accept it.

C /t follows that there is no definition of established base.

? Why

C /t follows that there is a definition of established base.

? / accept it.

C =osit it.

? %he sub4ect, obser0ed by a 0alid co(ni:er.L

C /t follows that the sub4ect, obser0ed by a 0alid co(ni:er is the

definition of established base.? / accept it.

C ?hi8 %he three spheres. /t folows that the sub4ect, obser0ee by a

0alid co(ni:er, is not the definition of established base because of

bein( the definition of e6istent. Here some say, 5?hi8 %he three

spheres.5 %his is, 52m a ra ba d:a na dhi8 %he three spheres.5 7ou

ha0e to say the first si6 syllables )uietly and then the last is said

audibly in a hi(h 0oice drawin( out the timin( of the syllable.

collected topics debate

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