chasse deposition: loghry transcript

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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURTFOR THE DISTRICT OF OREGON

JAMES P. CHASSE, JR.; JAMES P. )CHASSE; LINDA GERBER; and MARK 1CHASSE, individually and in hiscapacity as Personal Representative )of the ESTATE OF JAMES P. CHASSE,JR.,

Plaintiffs, )V. )NO. CV-07-0189-HU

CHRISTOPHER HUMPHREYS; KYLE NICE; )CITY OF PORTLAND; CITY OF PORTLAND )JOHN DOE FIREFIGHTERS/PARAMEDICS; )PORTLAND POLICE BUREAU and OTHER 1PORTLAND JOHN and JANE DOE )OFFICIALS; BRET BURTON; MULTNOMAHCOUNTY; MULTNOMAH COUNTY JOHN and )JANE DOE DEPUTY SHERIFFS and MEDICAL)PERSONNEL; MULTNOMAH COUNTY JOHN and)JANE DOE SHERIFF'S OFFICE and OTHER )OFFICIALS; TRI-COUNTY METROPOLITAN )TRANSPORTATION DISTRICT OF OREGON; )and AMERICAN MEDICAL RESPONSE )NORTHWEST, INC.,

Defendants.

DEPOSITION OFDIANE LOGHRY

Taken in behalf of Defendants* * *

July 28, 20081211 S.W. Fifth, Suite 1900

Portland, ,O,r,egonShannon K. Krska, CSRcourt Reporter

4 0 0 Co lur n b~a ,Su ~ t e 4 0 Shtt&Lehmann,Inc. 1 21 swMorrison s t , Suite 8 5 0Vancouver, W A 98 66 0 C O U R T R E P O R T E R S Portland, OR 9 7 2 0 413601 695-5 554 (5031 223-4 040,~ , . .Fax (360) 695-1737 www.slreporting.com [email protected]


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APPEARANCESFor the Plaintiffs: MR. THOMAS M. STEENSON

Attorney at Law8 1 5 S.W. Second, Suite 5 0 0Portland, OR 9 7 2 0 4

For the Defendants MR. DAVID A. LANDRUMHumphreys, Nice, and Attorney at LawCity of Portland: 1 2 2 1 S.W. Fourth, Suite 4 3 0

Portland, OR 9 7 2 0 4For the Defendants MS. SUSAN DUNAWAYBurton and Multnomah Attorney at LawCounty: 501 S.E. Hawthorne, Suite 5 0 2

Portland, OR 9 7 2 1 4For the Defendant MS. JEAN BACKAMR : Attorney at Law

1 2 1 1 S.W. Fifth, Suite 1 9 0 0Portland, OR 9 7 2 0 4INDEX

EXAMINATION BY: PAGE NOMr. Landrum 3 - 4 6Ms. Dunaway 4 6 - 7 2Ms. Back 7 3 - 8 6Mr. Steenson 8 6 - 8 9Ms. Dunaway 8 9 - 9 0

EXHIBITSNo. 3 0 3 Diagram

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1 PORTLAND, OREGON; MONDAY, JULY 28, 20082 9:06 AM3 * * *4 DIANE LOGHRY5 called as a witness in behalf of the Defendants,6 having first been sworn by the Reporter,7 testifies as follows:8 EXAMINATION9 BY MR. LANDRUM:

10 Q . Miss Loghry, my name is David Landrum, and11 I'm a deputy city attorney, and in this case I12 represent the police officers and the City of13 Portland. The other attorneys in the case are here.14 And we're going to be asking you some questions about15 your observations of this incident with Mr. Chasse.16 Have you ever had your deposition taken17 be re?18 A. Yes, I have.19 Q. What - - what kind of a situation was that?20 A. It was for a - - an insurance for a car21 accident.22 Q. Okay. About how long ago was that?23 A. Maybe three years ago.2 Q. Okay. Well, there's really three main25 things to remember about a deposition. First thing is

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1 the court reporter's the most important person in the2 room so we need to make sure that she's able to3 transcribe everything that gets said, so you and I4 need to make an effort to let the other one finish5 before we start speaking so that she takes it all6 down. The second thing is you need to keep your voice7 up and then answer yes or no or whatever it is you8 need to say but don't say uh-huh or huh-uh or nod or9 shake your head. And that let's her take that down10 also.11 A. Okay.12 Q. Do you understand that part?13 A. Yes, I do.14 Q. And then last part is that it's really15 important that you and I understand each other today,16 so if you don't understand anything about the question17 I'm asking you, just point that out to me and I'll try18 and rephrase it until we both know what we're talking19 about.2 o A. I understand.21 Q. All right, thanks.2 2 Let's see. You told the court reporter your2 full name is Diane Loghry. Have you ever used any24 other names?25 A. I'm also known as Diane Gilronan Loghry.



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Could you spell that?G-I-L-R-0-N-A-N.Is that a maiden name or - -It's my maiden name, m-hm.And what's your date of birth?November llth, 1960.And where do you live now?I live in Camas, Washington.Because if you're called to trial we'll

probably need to send you a subpoena, and even ifyou're agreeable to come in that's something to use atwork to show them you have to be somewhere, could yougive me your address?

A. 1231 N.E. 5th Avenue, Camas, Washington98607.

Q. All right, thanks.And do you have a cell phone number?

A. I do. It's 1-360-901-6768.Q. Thank you.

And how tall are you?A. Five ten.Q. And what's your place of birth?A. I was born in Cleveland, Ohio.Q. And do you have any degrees beyond high

school?Schmitt & Lehmann, Inc.

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1 A. Yes. I have a degree in elementary2 education with graduate work in special education.3 Q. Where is your elementary ed degree from?4 A. From Linfield College in McMinnville,5 Oregon.6 Q. What year?7 A. I graduated in 1982.8 Q. And have you ever had to write any kind of9 graduate thesis or something like that?

10 A. Like a master's thesis?11 Q. Right.12 A. No.13 Q. Okay. Where do you work now?14 A. I work for the Camas School District in15 Camas, Washington.16 Q. What do you do?I? A. I am an elementary school teacher.18 Q. What grades do you teach?19 A. Last year I taught first grade. What I'm2 teaching next year is up for discussion.2 1 Q. What was your last job before that?22 A. I was a special education teacher with the23 Educational Service District 112 in Vancouver,2 Washington.2 Q. How long did you have that job?



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1 A. The special education one?2 Q. Yes, ma'am.3 A. I worked for ESD for five years.4 Q. And what about prior to that?5 A. I graduated from college.6 Q. Okay. In your work with special education7 students, did you ever have to work with students with8 behavioral issues?9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. What kind of spectrum of behavioral issues11 did you have to work with?12 A. It was a variety of disabilities. I worked13 with students who were very young, I taught in the14 preschool program, and also did that with the Camas15 School District. So they ranged in age from three to16 seven.17 Q. In the course of that kind of work, did you18 have to work with some children whose behavioral19 issues called - - caused them to act out physically?20 A. Yes.21 Q. Did you sometimes have to correct or22 restrain kids physically in that work?23 A. Yes.2 Q. Did you find that stressful?25 A. Yes.



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1 Q. Well, in the course of doing that,2 irrespective of its stressful nature, did you also see3 it as just a necessary part of the work that you had4 to do?5 A. Yes.6 Q. Were you ever in a situation where anybody7 called into question the - - your methods in doing8 that - - that particular aspect of your work?9 A. No.10 Q. Okay. And do you wear contacts or11 glasses - -12 A. No.13 Q. - - at any time?14 A. Reading glasses.15 Q. Okay. Ever worn a hearing aid?16 A. NO.17 Q . Do you have any medical training?18 A. I - - I don't know. Like basic first aid?19 Q. Yeah.2 A. Yes.21 Q . From basic first aid - -22 A. Yes.23 Q. - - or CPR or - -2 A. Yes, I have basic training.2 Q . Do you have CPR training?



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1 A. I do, although my card's not currently2 current.3 Q . Have you ever had to use those - - the skills4 that you learned in those trainings?5 A. CPR?6 Q. Well, CPR or first aid.7 A. I've had to use some basic first aid, yes.

Q. What kind of situations did you have to usethe first aid training in?

A. Typically with - - with young children ifthey bump their head or they've cut something, I'vehad to, you know, administer aid at that point.

Q. Have you ever had to call an ambulance?A. For a student?Q. Right.A. No.Q. Have you ever had to call an ambulance for

anybody else outside of your work?19 A. Yes.2 Q. You have.2 What was that situation, just generally?22 A. I called an ambulance when my father was23 dying and I called an ambulance when my son was having24 a severe croup attack.25 Q . And was that in Vancouver?



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A. That was in Camas.Q. In Camas.A. My father was in Vancouver, but - -Q. In those two situations, I guess really

you'd have to separate the two, but in each of thosesituations, was your experience with the paramedicsneutral or good or did you have complaints about it?

A. They were fine.Q. Okay.A. M-hm, they were good.Q. Do you have any training in psychology?A. Beyond graduate level?Q. Well, at any level. Did you like take the

undergraduate psychology courses?A. Yes. I did take undergrad psych, and I also

took counseling courses in my graduate work.Q. What kind of counseling courses did you

take?A. I can't be specific as to the title of the

course. One was a communication with parents and howto deal with parents in stressful situations. I'mtrying to remember. I can't remember. I did an arttherapy course I think.

Q. Have you ever had any training, for example,in how to communicate with somebody in crisis?

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A. Yes.Q. Do you remember anything about that

training?A. I took an adversive therapy training

workshop and how to communicate with someone who isout of control or out of - - where their behavior isimpacting a situation.

Q. Now, was the - - the thrust of that trainingabout how to establish some rapport and communicationback and forth with that person?

A. That was a component of it.Q. And was the - - was part of the purpose an

effort to get that person to maybe focus and try tobring their level of, I don't know, anxiety or crisisdown somewhat?

A. Yes.Q. And was that specifically directed at young

children?A. It wasn't specifically for young children.

It was school-aged children.Q. M-hm.

Have you found that you've had to use whatskills you picked up in that training in your work?

A. Yes.Q. Can you describe for us generally when - -



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when you're employing elements of that training thatyou picked up, what's your focus? What are you tryingto do?

A. I need some clarification of what you wantme to answer there.

Q. Well, I guess what I'm getting at is whenyou - - when you find yourself in a situation whereyou're going to use those skills and you think back tohow - - you know, how do I approach this person in thissituation, what do you try to do in that situation?What's your - - what's your focus with that person?

A. Well, the focus - - the general goal is toprevent harm, is to prevent harm to that student or toany other students that might be in the vicinity thatwould be potential victims then. It - - it is tryingto isolate that person so that you can get them to aplace where they're calm and able to control their ownbehavior without any kind of physical assistance orverbal assistance so that then you can work throughwhatever was that - - was the antecedent that set themoff.

Q. M-hm.In your experience, and not talking about

hypotheticals, just talking about your experience, isthat always successful or is it just sometimes

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successful and sometimes not?A. In my experience, it's generally successful,

but not always successful.Q. Okay. Have you ever been in the military?A. NO.Q. Have you ever had any contact with the

Portland Police Bureau, officers from the bureau?A. I do know a Portland Police officer.Q. You know a Portland Police officer?A. M-hm.Q. What's the name of that officer?A. His name is Wayne Sphiller (phonetic). He

just retired.Q. Have you ever had any contact with a

situation like, you know, getting a traffic ticket orhaving to call the police in Portland and having themcome to something?

A. I have received one traffic ticket, yes.Q. Now, aside from the idea that getting a

traffic ticket's not good, been there, too, butotherwise, was your experience with that officer good,bad, or indifferent?

A. Good.Q. What about other law enforcement agencies,

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1 experiences with other police agencies?2 A. Yes.3 Q . Which ones?4 A. With the Camas Police Department.5 Q . What kind of experience was that, generally?6 A. Well, it's been positive. I've had them in7 as guest speakers in my classroom. We have a district8 police officer that we use for educational purposes9 to, you know, do stranger danger and, you know, as - -10 as a classroom speaker.11 Q. And that experience has been good, bad, or12 indifferent for you?13 A. Good.14 I've also had to have interaction with15 police officers when I've had to make reports to child16 protective services.17 Q. And are those experiences generally good,18 bad, or indifferent?19 A. As good as they can be in that situation.2 Q . Sure, I understand.21 Have you had any martial arts training?22 A. No.23 Q. Okay. And so have you always lived in the24 Vancouver - - well, you didn't because you were born in25 Ohio. When did you come to the northwest?



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1 A. We moved here originally - - the first time2 we moved here was in 1970, and then we moved back to3 Michigan, and then we came back here in '74,and I've4 been here since '74.5 Q. Have you ever been to a place called the6 Swindells Apartments? And I'll tell you where it is.7 It's on Burnside at 4th I think, maybe it's 6th.

A. NO.Q. You're not familiar with it at all?A. (Shakes head.)Q. Did you ever have any contact with

Mr. Chasse, the man that's deceased in this case?A. NO.Q. Okay. Have you ever had any contact with

any of his family members that you know of?A. No.Q. Okay. Now, did you review any documents

before coming to this deposition today?A. Yes.Q. What - - what documents did you review?A. It was a transcript of my initial interview

22 with one of the officers. I think Courtney, Officer23 Courtney maybe.24 Q. Is this the one that was very soon after the25 event?

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A. Yes.Q. Any others?A. No.Q. Any other documents I meant.A. No.Q. Okay. Have you talked to any lawyers about

these events involving Mr. Chasse?A. About the events or about this deposition?Q. No, about the events.A. No, I have not talked to any attorneys about

the event.Q. Now, talked to some - - I'm guessing you

talked to some lawyers, somebody about this depositionitself. Is that right?

A. Yes.Q. Which ones have you talked to?A. I believe I spoke with you and I spoke with

you. So Miss Back and, I'm sorry, I forgot your - -Q. Mr. Steenson.

Or you're gesturing towards Mr. Steenson. Iassume that's who you're talking about?

A. Yes, this gentleman to my right.Q. And in either of those conversations, did

you discuss more than the - - just the sort of thetiming and place arrangements for the deposition



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itself?A. No.Q. Okay. Have you ever gone back to that

intersection at Everett and 13th since the time of theevents we're talking about, and those were onSeptember the 17th, 2006?

A. Yes, I've been back there.Q. And when you went back there, was that for

the purpose of seeing it - - seeing the location withrespect to these events?

A. No.Q. Was that to go to the Blue Hour?A. Yes.Q. Okay.

All right. And you testified at a grandjury proceeding that related to Mr. Chasse's death; isthat right?

A. Yes.Q. And did you talk to the Portland Police

Bureau detectives about this incident involvingMr. Chasse?

A. Yes.Q. Okay. How many times did you talk to them

besides the time that you had the transcript that youreviewed?

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A. Just that one time.Q. Let's see, other than - - well, strike that.

1'11 go on.Now, like I said before, the - - the event

that we're talking about involving Mr. Chasse was onSeptember 17th, 2006, and that was a Sunday. Is thathow you remember it?

A. Yes.Q. Were you working that day?A. NO.Q. And as I understand it, you were a customer

at the Blue Hour at the time you observed theseevents - -

A. Yes.Q. - - is that right?

And you were there with Ms. Gaylord; is thatright?

A. Yes.Q. Okay. And were y'all having anything to

drink that day?A. Yes.Q. What were you drinking?A. I think I had a martini.Q. Now, let me premise my remarks by saying I'm

not trying to embarrass you or give you a bad time andSchmitt & Lehmann, Inc.

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1 I'm not going to go very far with this, but do you2 know how many that you had?3 A. Yes.4 Q. How many?5 A. I hadn't even had one yet.6 Q. Okay. And were y'all doing something else7 that day besides just going to the Blue Hour to have8 a - - a meal and a visit? Had you been doing something9 else and then going there?10 A. Yes.11 Q. What were y'all there doing?12 A. We had gone and see the play Wicked at the13 Keller Auditorium.14 Q . And this was after y'all had been to the15 matinee; is that right?16 A. Yes.17 Q. Now, I'm gathering from what you're saying18 that y'all had already come to the restaurant, been19 seated before these events started to unfold out on2 the street. Is that right?21 A. Yes.22 Q. Did you order what you were going to order,23 had the waitress been or the wait person been by?24 A. I believe we had just ordered.25 Q. And then we'll get to the details of the



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event in a minute, but - - well, I was going to say,how long did you stay, but what I mean is not so muchin terms of did you stay 20 minutes or an hour or fiveminutes or whatever, but in terms of this event takingplace on the street while you were there, how longwere you there after the initial events took place?In other words, did - - did the police officers and theambulance and so forth, did they go away while youwere still at the restaurant?

A. Yes.Q. Okay. And so you were still sitting there

after everything that was going on on the street haddispersed and gone away?

A. Not totally.Q. Okay. Well, tell me what you mean by that.A. There were still - - the ambulance had left.Q. M-hm.A. The patrol cars had left. And there was - -

I think there was still one patrol car there and therewas a fire engine there.

Q. Did y'all stay to, you know, eat your mealand have a drink and then pay and leave or did theseevents cause you to get up and go before you'dfinished?

A. No, they did not cause us to get up and go.Schrnitt & Lehrnann, Inc.

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We stayed until we had finished.Q. Okay. Now, what I'd like for you to do is

just to describe for me, you know, what caught yourattention and then what you saw happen on the streetoutside the restaurant involving Mr. Chasse.

A. Okay. Well, we heard it before we saw it.It was loud. And then we saw a group of men runningaround the corner which I guess would be is thatEverett - -

Q . All right.A. - - and 13th, and we saw the group go to the

ground. There was a lot of yelling which is what weheard.

Q. Let me stop you there for just a second.A. Okay.Q. How many people in this group?A. There were four.Q. How many of them - - Mr. Chasse was one of

them?A. Yes.Q. And the other three were - - did they appear

to be police officers?A. Police officers.Q. Were the police officers dressed

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1 A. Two were in blue and one was in green.2 Q. Okay. So I stopped you. You heard them3 coming around the corner, saw them, there was lots of4 yelling, and then what did you see?5 A. I saw them take him down to the ground.6 Q. Okay. Can - - describe for me, as best you7 can, how that appeared to happen.8 A. To the best of my recollection, he - - they9 had his arms twisted behind his back and they were10 using their bodies to take him down to the ground.11 And, you know, it happened quickly so - - but I just12 remember them coming down and their knees going into13 him and I thought he had hit his head.14 There was a lot of screaming, a lot of15 screaming. And ow, ow, ow, and no, no, no. He kept16 saying that over and over. And they just - - I just17 remember the arms twisted behind his back and - - and18 then they had him on the ground.19 Q. Now, did you see the officers have his arms2 behind his back before the group went to the ground?2 A. Yes.22 Q. So the officers had their hands on23 Mr. Chasse before the group went to the ground?2 A. Yes.25 Q. Did you see any of the officers appear to



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1 wrap their arms around Mr. Chasse's body? Could you2 see that?3 A. I don't recall that.4 Q. Okay. I'll make a brief speech. We'd say I5 don't remember that in response to a lot of things,6 but sometimes we mean in my recollection of the event7 what you are suggesting to me, that didn't happen.8 Sometimes we mean in my recollection of the event,9 what you are suggesting may have happened, it may not10 have happened, I just cannot remember or don't know11 whether it happened or not. So when you say I don't12 remember that, do you mean one of those two things?13 A. Give your speech again. I just lost you.14 Q. Okay.15 Okay. I'll try again. Well, here's the16 thing. Sometimes what we mean is somebody's asking us17 about an event and we say I don't remember that, but18 what we mean is what the questioner is suggesting to19 us, in our recollection that thing didn't happen, I2 didn't see that happen. Sometimes what we mean is21 what you're suggesting to me, questioner, it may have22 happened, it may not have happened, either I can't2 3 remember whether it happened or not or I couldn't see2 it well enough to tell you whether or not that's the25 way it happened or not.

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1 So when you say - - I said did you see them2 put their arms around Mr. Chassels ody and you said I3 don't remember that, do you mean in my recollection4 that didn't happen or do you mean that may have5 happened, that may not have happened, I couldn't6 really say whether it did or not?7 A. That may have happened but I can't say.8 There were a lot of arms and there were a lot of limbs9 and I don't remember if one specific officer wrapped

1 0 their arms around him or not. I don't remember that.11 Q. Okay. That's what I was getting at. Thank1 2 you.1 3 Okay. So I interrupted you. But they had1 4 had his arms behind him while all were still standing1 5 and then all went to the ground together; is that1 6 right?17 A. M-hm.1 8 Q . And who was on the top and who was on the1 9 bottom?2 0 A. Well, Chasse was definitely on the bottom,2 1 and there - - he was down on the ground, there was one22 officer in front of him down and then there were two23 behind him, one more up towards his back and24 midsection and one more towards his thighs and such,25 and they were on him from the back.

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1 Q. Did they appear to be not standing?2 A. Yes.3 Q. Okay. Their legs were - - were crouched or4 in some way underneath them so that they were lowered5 down to the level of the ground and his body; is that6 right?7 A. One officer had his legs - - his knees, he8 was kneeing him in the back.9 Q. M-hm.

1 0 A. The other officer in front was I think11 crouching. I don't know if his knees were in contact1 2 with the ground. He was down low. And the other - -1 3 the third officer was also down bent over. I'm not

sure if he was in full contact but he was certainlydown lower. He was not in a full, upright position.

Q. So does that mean that the one officer thatappeared to be at his - - at his legs, at his thighs,that part, I'm understanding from what you're sayingthat he was the one that had his knees intoMr. Chasse?

A. No. It was the second officer that was moreup towards his shoulders and back area that was - -

Q. And when you say he had his knees into him,do you mean to say that he was striking a blow withhis knees or did he just have his knees on

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1 Mr. Chasse's body as if he were restraining him or2 what do you mean by had his knees into him?3 A. He was using his knees as a method to4 restrain.5 Q . Okay. Did either of the other two officers,6 either the one at the legs or the one who appeared to7 be ahead of Mr. Chassers ody where Mr. Chasse was8 laying on the ground, did they appear to be using9 their knees in the same way?10 A. There might have - - yes, I think the - - the11 one at the back was also using his knees to hold to12 restrain, but he wasn't as far down as the other one13 was. He was a little higher up.14 Q. You're talking about in terms of his15 position with relation to the ground?16 A. Yes.17 Q. Okay, okay. I interrupted you. So they go18 to the ground, they're in the positions that you've19 described. And then what happened after that?2 A. Well, I heard a lot of get down, get down,21 no, no, ow, ow, ow. Those were the general comments22 and they were repeated over and over. And then I23 heard the officer - - one of them, I believe it was the2 one in front, say don't bite me, and then I saw his25 hand go into him. It looked like a punch to me.



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1 Q . And where did that punch appear to land on2 Mr. Chassels ody?3 A. It appeared to land somewhere in the4 proximity of where he was crouched in front of. I5 didn't see it actually land. I just saw the arm come6 back and go in. But the officer was kind of blocking7 - - his body was blocking his head.8 Q . When you say blocking, you mean blocking9 from your view?

10 A. Yeah.11 Q. So does that mean that you couldn't see12 where this punch appeared to land, whether it was his13 midsection or his chest or his head?14 A. It appeared to be heading towards his15 midsection, but I didn't see it land.16 Q. Okay. Did you see any of the other officers17 appear to strike any blows with their hands?18 A. I did not see any other fists. I did see19 their hands being used as restraints.2 Q. In the interests of completeness, did you21 see any of the officers appear to use either their22 forearms or their elbows to strike any blows to23 Mr. Chasse?2 A. They definitely used their limbs to control25 his movements. Whether that was their forearm or



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1 their elbow I couldn't say, but they were using - -2 they had his arms twisted behind his back and they3 were using their body to restrain him.4 Q. Okay. Did you see any of the officers5 strike any blows to Mr. Chasse with their feet, like6 they were kicking him?7 A. I did not see any kicks.8 Q. Now, besides what you've already told us9 about them appearing to use their knees as part of10 their maneuvers to restrain Mr. Chassels ovements - -11 and I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is that12 accurate about what you were telling me before?13 A. Yes.14 Q. Okay. Did you see them appear to rear back15 and strike blows with their knees to Mr. Chassels16 body?17 A. I would say that they definitely18 repositioned themselves. Whether it was a blow or19 with force I couldnlt say that. But they definitely2 used their limbs to hold him down. And there was21 obviously pressure and phtting their whole bodies22 behind the attempt to hold him down. And it was23 apparent that they were restraining him.2 Q. Okay. So I interrupted you again and we25 were up to the three officers in the positions that

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1 you described and they're trying to restrain him, have2 his arms behind his back, and they're using various3 parts of their bodies trying to restrain his4 movements. How long did this - - would you describe it5 as a struggle? Is that a fair description?6 A. Yes.7 Q. Okay. How long did this struggle appear to8 go on?9 A. I would say it - - it probably took up to10 five minutes, you know, give or take a minute.11 Q. Well, in - - in your estimation, in your12 opinion, as you watched this go on, did that appear to13 be because the officers were having trouble bringing14 Mr. Chasse under control? I mean, was he continuing15 to struggle with them?16 A. He was obviously in great distress and he17 was very vocal. Mr. Chasse was - - he was fighting the18 restraint and - - but in my opinion, I would say that19 he was fighting the restraint because he was in pain20 because he was trying - - you could see him trying to21 get away from the pressure of it.2 Q. Now, can you describe for me - - well, let me23 put it this way: If the struggle lasted approximately2 five minutes, which I'll take your word for, can you25 describe for me how it seemed to wind down and come to



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an end as a struggle?A. Well, they got him down on the ground and he

was struggling and then he stopped and then you justheard him moaning and he was - - and they kind ofpulled off of him. And at that point, that's when theparamedics came in.

Q. Now, did you see the officers put any kindof restraints on Mr. Chassels ands or arms?

9 A. He appeared to be restrained at both the1 0 feet and the arms.11 Q. Can you describe for me what the devices12 used to restrain him, what they looked like? Could1 3 you tell?

A. I couldn't tell.Q. Did his feet - - whatever was restraining his

feet, did it appear to be attached to whatever wasrestraining his hands?

A. He - - he appeared to be not in a typicalposition. It was almost like he was trying to curl upinto a fetal, but his legs were up behind him and hishands were up behind him, but he was trying to coverhis - - his midsection.

Q. When you say his feet were up, do you meanhis knees were bent?

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Q. Did his - - so his leg from his thigh to his2 shins, did that appear to be at like a 90-degree angle3 or were his heels closer to his back or were his heels

further from his back than a 90-degree position?A. It would be hard to describe that because he

was trying to curl into the fetal position and hewas - - his hands were behind his back and his legswere drawn up behind him but yet he kept trying tobring his knees to his chest, so I couldn't tell youif it was a 90-degree angle.

Q. Okay. Now, did you observe any of theofficers to do anything that gave you the impressionthat they were calling for somebody, like paramedicsor somebody else to come there, could you see themusing a radio - -

A. No.Q. - - or any device like that?

Now, as I understand what you're telling me,Mr. Chasse stopped struggling and then soon thereafterthe paramedics arrived?

A. M-hm.22 Q. Was it - - was it instantaneous or was it23 within a few seconds or can you estimate how long2 between the time you noticed him to stop struggling2 and when you see the - - and when I say the

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1 paramedics - - 1'11 get to that question in a minute.2 How long before they showed up?3 A. Moments, so a few minutes.4 Q. All right. During the time - - during the5 time between when you noticed Mr. Chasse to stop6 struggling and you say the paramedics arrived, what7 did you observe the officers to do?8 A. Well, they still were down - - the one in9 front, they were talking to each other. I assumed

10 they were talking to him. They were searching him. I11 would say - - and the one at - - that was at his back12 stood up.13 Q. Was this the officer in green or was this14 the officer in blue, do you remember?15 A. I don't remember.16 Q. So the - - go on. The officer at the back17 stood up.18 A. The one that had been more to - - at his legs19 stood up, and the other one in front appeared to be20 crouching by his head, and at that point I could kind2 of see his head, and he - - he shifted his body so I22 could see. And then Mr. Chasse was moaning a lot. He23 was obviously in great distress. And, you know, I2 couldn't hear what the officers were saying to each25 other. They appeared to be talking to each other.



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And then the paramedics came.Q. And when you say the paramedics came, are

you talking about an ambulance or fire truck or bothor what do you mean by that?

A. A fire truck and an ambulance came, amedical response.

Q. Which one got there first?A. I think they arrived pretty simultaneously.Q. All right. So the fire truck and the

ambulance pull up and then what happens?A. And then the paramedics come over. I

believe it was a woman and a man. The woman bendsdown. And at that point, you know, I was having aconversation with Melissa and so I wasn't watching ita hundred percent because I figured they were dealingwith him and he was getting care and - -

Q. When you say that the - - the femaleparamedic bent down, you mean she bent down byMr. Chasse?

A. Yes.Q. Did you see any of the paramedics speak to

any of the officers before somebody went toMr. Chasse?

A. They may have. I don't - - don't recallthat. They were all talking to each other. I don't

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1 know if they did that prior to going to see2 Mr. Chasse, but they were definitely having3 conversations with each other.4 Q. And how long would you say the paramedics5 were present?6 A. At the entire - - for the entire length of7 time they were there?8 Q. Yes.9 Well, let me - - I should clarify that a10 little bit, make sure I'm saying what I mean. The11 female paramedic bent down by Mr. Chasse and there was12 a male paramedic with her - -13 A. M-hm.14 Q . - - and they were in identical uniforms; is15 that right?16 A. Yes.1 7 Q. And then there were some other guys who got18 out of the fire truck; right?19 A. Yes.2 Q. And their uniforms were different than the21 two people from the ambulance, do you remember that?22 A. They were in - - yeah, I think they had dark23 blue uniforms on.2 Q. Okay. Well, the point of my asking that is25 I'm trying to find out if you can differentiate, in



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1 your memory, between the people that got out of the2 ambulance and the people that came from the fire3 truck?4 A. Yes.5 Q. Okay. Did the people from the fire truck6 appear to be taking some kind of hands-on approach to7 Mr. Chasse or were the people from the ambulance doing8 more of that or how did that look to you?9 A. I would say it was more the people from the10 ambulance.11 Q . Okay. And how did Mr. Chasse appear to12 react to the contact? And I don't necessarily mean13 physical contact. I'm going to start with the14 interaction between himself and the people that came15 from the ambulance.16 A. Well, again, he was moaning a lot and he was17 apparently very - - in great distress and physical - -18 you could hear him. You know, he sounded like he was19 hurt.2 And I recall Melissa and I having the21 conversation that - - 'cause when we saw him go down we22 thought he had hit his head. We didn't know if he had23 a concussion. I was sure his arm was dislocated2 because they had it so wrenched behind his back. So I25 thought that's where the pain was coming from. And so



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1 the paramedic was having - - you know, was2 administering.3 Q . Well, I guess what I'm getting at, and 1'114 try and be a little more clear, you described the5 struggle with the officers and then Mr. Chasse kind of6 stopped struggling, officers seemed to stand up, and7 then soon thereafter the ambulance and fire truck8 arrive, and the people from the ambulance are going9 over there to Mr. Chasse. Did his demeanor change as10 he interacted with them or did he remain sort of quiet11 and not struggling?12 A. I don't remember him struggling again, other13 than a lot of moaning. And so he might have been, you14 know, rolling around on the ground a little bit. They15 did examine him, from what I could see, and then - -16 and then they picked him up. And we assumed he was17 going in the ambulance, and they put him in the patrol18 car.19 Q. Okay. Let me step back a couple events.20 A. Okay.2 Q. How many officers - - was it the same three22 officers that you had seen from the beginning who were23 there with Mr. Chasse at the time the ambulance and24 the fire truck arrived?25 A. I believe so.



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Q. Did you see any others?A. There was another patrol car that came up as

well.Q. Did it come up before or at the same time or

after the fire truck and the ambulance?A. I would say the patrol cars got there first,

before the ambulance and the - - and the fire trucks.And then they blocked off the street. You know, wewere on - - Blue Hour's on 13th. There was a patrolcar right kind of in front and then one over here offof 13th that we could see.

Q. Now, you saw the people from the ambulanceover by Mr. Chasse, the officers are standing there,the guys from the fire struck are standing there.Right?

A. M-hm.Q. And at some point you said somebody picked

Mr. Chasse up, you thought they were going to theambulance but they took him to a patrol car. Right?

A. M-hm.Q. The people that appeared to pick Mr. Chasse

up, did they - - could you tell whether those were someof the three officers that you initially saw?

A. I don't remember if they were the sameofficers



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1 Q . Can you describe for me - -2 A. They were in blue.3 Q. Okay. Can you describe for me how they4 picked him up? In other words, did they pick him up5 by his heads and legs or by his arms or - -6 A. They picked him up under his arms and he7 wasn't walking of his own volition.8 Q. Were his legs still bent at the knee when9 they were - - when they were taking him to the - -

l o A. There was still some - -11 Q. - - patrol car?1 2 A. - - bend of the knee, yes.1 3 Q. So when you say he was not walking on his1 4 own volition, was he walking at all or did they have1 5 him entirely lifted off the ground so he wasn't1 6 touching the ground?17 A. They had him off the ground.1 8 Q. Did you hear any of the interaction between1 9 the officers and the people from the ambulance?2 0 A. No.2 1 Q. Now, you said that you thought they were22 going to take him to the ambulance but they took him2 3 to the patrol car. Right?24 A. Yes.25 Q. Were you surprised by that?



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1 A. Yes.2 Q. Okay. Why were you surprised by that?3 A. Because, to my eye, he was hurt and we4 assumed he was going to go get medical care.5 Q. Did you observe anything that gave you the6 impression that there was any kind of debate about7 whether he should go in the ambulance or the police8 car?9 A. I couldn't speak to a debate. There was10 discussion. I mean, they were certainly having a11 conversation, but I was - - I couldn't hear it.12 Q. Now, what was your - - what was your personal13 impression as you watched these events unfold? Did it14 appear to you to be - - and these terms - - I don't mean15 these terms to mean some specific thing and you may16 certainly change them if you'd like. I don't want to17 put words in your mouth. But did you - - did it appear18 to you to be somehow grossly unfair or particularly19 brutal or - - you know, what was your reaction, your2 general reaction, to the events that you saw unfold?21 A. It was pretty intense and it was pretty22 violent and there was excessive force used to bring23 him down. That was my opinion. And it - - it appeared2 that they were hurting him.25 Q. When you say they, you're talking about the



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officers?A. The officers.

And they went down hard onto the ground.Q. Okay. Now, I donr want you to

misunderstand me. I'm not trying to get you to changeyour opinion, but I'm - - I am interested in trying tounderstand it as best I can. So when you said justnow you said it appeared they used excessive force tobring Mr. Chasse to the ground, can you elaborate onthat a little bit for me and tell me what you mean byexcessive force? Was there something you thought theycould have done differently or should have donedifferently?

A. Well, I couldn't speak to what I think theyshould have done - - or what - - you know, what - - Iwasn't the person doing that.

Q. M-hm.A. But it appeared to me that there were three

guys on one guy and he wasn't very big and they tookhim down pretty - - very hard.

Q. Did you observe the officers to do anythingthat, in your opinion or your observation, appeared tobe gratuitous, like something they were just doing forthe hell of it, or did it look to you like once theyhad him down and restrained they were off of him, or

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. what was your opinion about that?A. I would not say that any of their actions

were gratuitous. They were fully intent on taking himdown to the ground, and it was evident in how theyfacilitated that, that by whatever cost they weretaking him down to the ground.

Q. Okay. Now, you talked about - - a coupletimes about that it was loud and you heard Mr. Chasseboth saying ow and saying no and you heard himmoaning. Did the volume of his voice change over thecourse of the event that you observed?

A. Yes.Q. Okay. Sort of describe that for me, how

the - - the volume or quality of Mr. Chasse's voiceseemed to change over the event.

A. Well, as he came running down the street hewas much louder than when he ended on the ground whereit was more of a whimpering, moaning, distressfulsound, so the volume decreased as the incidentprogressed.

Q. Did you - - after he was on the ground, didyou hear Mr. Chasse say anything that was distinctenough for you to understand what he was saying?

A. I heard no repeatedly.Q. Any other distinct words?

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A. Ow.Q. All right. When you were watching

Mr. Chasse and the officers on the ground, besidesmoving his arms and legs, did he appear to turn historso from side to side or twist his hips from side toside?

A. He appeared to try to crawl into that fetalposition. He was trying to pull himself in in kind ofalmost a protective mode. He was - - he was trying toarch himself away, but interior. He wasn't like doinga - - I mean, I think there were a couple of backarches, but I think that's when they were bringing hislegs up. But for the most part, he was trying to - -and he was on his side. He was trying to roll intohimself.

Q. Did you ever see Mr. Chasse with his - - hisfront part, his chest and his stomach, his abdomen,flat on the ground with his back facing the sky?

A. I don't recall that.2 Q . Did he appear to be on one side or the other21 the whole time?22 A . He was on side - - on his side. On his side23 and on his front.2 Q. When you say on his side and on his front,25 do you mean sort of simultaneously, partly on one,



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1 partly on the other, or do you mean he went from being2 on his side to his front or to his side, or something3 different? Like I said, I'm not trying to make this4 up for you. I'm trying to get you to tell me.5 A. He - - he - - they wanted him face down.6 That's - - that was the position they were trying to7 get him into it appeared. And he was more on his left8 side with partial front down, but you could still see9 him kind of twisted up.10 Q. Okay. Now, were you ever able to see11 Mr. Chassels face clear enough to make any12 observations about the color of his face, whether he13 was flushed or whether he was pale or anything like14 that?15 A. I couldn't say that.16 Q . Same thing with his hands, could you tell17 anything about his hands?18 A. Other than they were behind his back, no.19 Q . All right. Now, you also mentioned that you20 heard one of the officers say don't bite me - -21 A. Yes.22 Q. - - is that right?2 Did you actually observe Mr. Chasse to bite2 anybody?25 A. NO.



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1 Q . Did you observe his face or his mouth well2 enough to be able to see whether he had his mouth open3 or was straining towards anybody - -4 A . No.5 Q . - - anything like that?6 Did you ever see any of the officers use any7 kind of an object to strike Mr. Chasse?8 A. I did not see that.9 Q. Do you know what a - - do you know what a10 Taser unit looks like?11 A. Yes.12 Q. Okay. Did you see anybody use one of those?13 A. I did not see that, but I did hear somebody14 say, oh, they just Tasered him.15 Q . Now, while you were still at the scene - -16 well, we keep saying that. While you were still at17 the Blue Hour - -18 A. M-hm.19 Q. - - did you have any verbal contact with any2 officer?21 A. No.22 Q. Didn't hear anything any officer said?23 A. NO.2 Q . Did you see any blood on Mr. Chasse?25 A. I did not see blood, no.



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1 Q . All right. Now, I kind of - - I kind of2 interrupted you earlier. We'd gotten to the place3 where the paramedics had been down beside Mr. Chasse4 and then we jumped to the officers having picked him5 up, you thought they were going to the ambulance but6 they took him to the patrol car.7 A. M-hm.8 Q . Between the time that the - - the paramedics,9 the people from the ambulance, first appeared to kneel10 down or crouch down near Mr. Chasse and the time that11 the officers picked him up to carry him away, what did12 you observe happen during that time?13 A. You know, I think at that point I kind of14 stopped watching it so intently because I think our15 food had arrived and I felt like he was getting care16 and it was getting resolved, so, you know, I - - I saw17 the paramedics down with him and having the18 conversation with the police officers, kind of19 standing around for a while. When I say for a while I20 mean a few moments, a few minutes.21 Q. Okay. And what happened after you saw the22 officers take Mr. Chasse away? What did you observe2 to happen after that?2 A. After they put him in the patrol car they25 left and the ambulance left. And it wasn't long after



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1 that, maybe about five minutes, we got up and left.2 And it appeared that there was some vomit on the3 ground and there was a police officer - - or it was one4 of the - - it might have been a fireman cleaning the5 scene. And it didn't - - as hard as he hit his head,6 it didn't surprise me if he had vomited because - -7 that's what it looked like to me.8 Q. Okay. Can we go off for about two or three9 minutes and I'm probably done.10 We can go off.11 (Recess: 10:15 to 10:18 AM.)12 Q. (By Mr. Landrum) All right. Well, I'm going13 to stop there, Miss Loghry. Thank you very much. I14 think some of the other attorneys might have questions15 for you.16 A. Okay.17 EXAMINATION18 BY MS. DUNAWAY:19 Q. You said that you went to see a play earlier2 in the afternoon; is that right?21 A. Yes.22 Q. What was the play about?23 A. Wicked.2 Q. M-hm.25 A. It's the true story of the Wizard of Oz.



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1 Q . Okay. What does that mean, the true story?2 A. It's - - it was based on a book and it was3 told from the - - the viewpoint of the wicked witch,4 that she really wasn't so wicked.5 Q. And how is it that you know Miss Gaylord?6 A. We went to high school together.7 Q. And where was that?8 A. At Hudson's Bay High School in Vancouver,9 Washington.10 Q. And earlier you testified that when you were11 working with children in special ed that occasionally12 you would have to restrain them?13 A. Yes.1 4 Q. What techniques would you use to restrain15 them?16 A. Well, restraint was always the last17 recourse, that was always the last option. So if I18 had to do a physical restraint, typically I did a hand19 over hand and you wrap your hands - - you grab a wrist2 0 and you cross their wrists and you're coming from2 behind them so that their arms are crossed in front of22 them and then they can't - - and then you can23 physically move them to another point to get them away24 from causing harm to others or to themselves.25 Q. Did the children occasionally cause harm to



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other children then?A. They could, yes.Q. They could.

And you actually witnessed that - -A. Yes.Q. - - that they did?A. Yes.Q. Did you receive any training in regard to

how to restrain the children?A. Yes.Q. And where did you receive that training?A. It was through a workshop put on by the

district.Q. And who did the training? I mean, you said

the - - but specifically you said the school district,but what was the background - -

A. I can't remember. I can't remember who itwas. I'd have to go back and look and see.

Q. Was it someone from - - with a lawenforcement background?

A. It was not somebody with a law enforcementbackground I don't believe. It was somebody that wasan educational consultant with training in dealingwith difficult children.

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training?A. 15 years ago.Q. And how many times? How many times did you

receive training?A. That course was - - was several Wednesday

afternoons so it was like - - you know, like threeWednesday afternoons that for four hours each so atotal of 12 hours of training on that. And then therewas another course I took about controlling studentbehavior, that was through the University of Oregon.And that was probably 18 years ago.

Q. And out of all those hours, the onlyphysical restraint that they taught you was to come upbehind and - -

A. No, that was not the only physical. Therewere others. That was my most successful method.It's the one that I found caused the least amount ofstress for everybody involved.

Q. Okay. What other restraints did they teachyou then?

A. There were some that you could take childrendown to a sitting position and restrain them in asitting position using your legs to - - to hold themdown.

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position to a sitting position?A. Yes. And you could - - it's almost like a

cradling hold on them, again, coming from their backbecause that is the most protective position.

Q. So coming - - you would come up behind themand then use your body weight to bring them down intoa sitting position?

A. Yeah.Q. And you never had to use that particular

hold?A. I had to restrain a child on the ground one

time and did have to use my legs because he waskicking and I put one leg over his legs. But he wassitting in front of me so I had his arms like this andI put one leg in front of him to hold him so he couldnot kick the person who was trying to talk to him.

Q. Okay. Who was trying to talk to him?A. The principal.Q. How did the principal happen to wind up

there?A. He was escorted to the principal's office.Q. Oh. So this all occurred in the principal's

off ice?A. He was - - I escorted him down in the hold

and I tried to put him in a chair in her office soSchmitt & Lehmann, Inc.

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A. Get down, get down.Q. So as they're running they're commanding him

to - -A. Get down.Q. - - to get down?

Not to stop running, but just to stop andget down on the ground?

A. I heard - -MR. STEENSON: Objection, argumentative,

misstates her testimony, leading.MS. DUNAWAY: I'm asking.MR. STEENSON: Let - - let her finish her

answers.Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) Did you hear them saying

that they were - - he was to get just down on theground, not to stop but just to get down on theground?

A. I heard - -MR. STEENSON: Still misstates her

testimony, go down.Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) I'm asking if that's what

you said?MR. STEENSON: And I can make my objection.THE WITNESS: Yes, I said that they said to

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Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) They did say get down onthe ground?

A. M-hm.Q. But you never heard them say stop?A. I don't recall them saying stop, but it was

loud. And I heard Mr. Chasse and get down, get downfrom the officers more than I heard anything else.

Q. Get down.So they may have said stop?

A. They may have, I don't recall.Q. You just didn't hear it?A. I don't recall if they said it or not.Q. And how would you describe Mr. Chassels

stature?A. He was of slim build, maybe five eight, five

nine, I don't - - he was running and I didn't reallyever see him fully upright.

Q. And how was he dressed?A. He had on dark pants and a - - I think maybe

a flannel shirt or something, you know, some kind of ashirt, T-shirt.

Q. And - - and what color hair did he have?A. He had dark hair.Q. Dark, darker than yours?A. I would say it was probably a medium brown.



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1 Q . So that would be darker than yours?2 A. Yeah.3 Q. And did he have any facial hair?4 A. I don't recall.5 Q. And do you recall if he was carrying6 anything?7 A. I didn't see him carrying anything. His8 arms were twisted behind his back.9 Q. Well, before he was - - when he was running10 did you see him carrying anything?11 A. When he was running they already had ahold12 of his arms trying to get him down.13 Q. Okay. And who's they?14 A. The police officers.15 Q . Okay. So three police officers had ahold of16 two arms?17 A. As they came around the corner - -18 Q. M-hm.19 A. - - and they were yelling and they were20 telling him to get down, they had ahold of his arms2 already wrenched behind his back and he continued to22 run. That's why they a11 came down together.23 Q . Okay. I'm trying to figure out who's they.2 You said - -25 A. The police officers. I'm not sure if it was



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1 six hands on him or four hands - -2 Q . Or two.3 A. - - or two hands - - it was at least four. I4 know they each - - they had arms behind his back.5 Q . Okay. I'm trying to get the picture in my6 mind.7 A. M-hm.8 Q . And there's between two to four hands on9 him - -10 A. Yes.11 Q . - - is that right?12 And while he's running they're able to grab13 ahold of his arms and pull his arms behind his back,14 is that what your recollection is?15 A. Say that again, please.16 Q . They're running down the street, there's17 three officers, there's between two to six arms18 amongst the officers, and while he is running they are19 able to grab his arms and pull his arms behind his2 back - -21 A . As they came - -22 Q . - - is that what you're saying?23 A. As they came around the corner they had24 ahold of his arm and they were pulling his arms behind2 5 his back which caused - - I mean, it appeared that's

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1 maybe what got him off balance, too, because he was2 continuing to run and was saying no and - -3 Q. So he was still running with his arms kind4 of pulled behind his back?5 A. Yeah. But not for very long.6 Q. And you're not sure if it was two officers7 or one officer or three officers?8 A. No.9 Q. And then if I understood - - as I'm trying to10 kind of like envision what you're saying like a movie11 in my head while you're testifying for Mr. Landrum, if12 I understood it, the picture I got in my head was that13 all of a sudden at some point then they all go down in14 a heap.15 A. It - - it did appear that they called tumbled16 down together, yes.17 Q. Okay.18 A. But it was evident that they were the force19 that took him down.2 Q. Okay. So - -21 A. He did not go down of his own volition.22 Q. Okay.23 A. He did not choose to go down.2 4 Q. Okay. Much like the students when you25 pulled them down, right, from a standing position into



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1 a sitting position? They didn't go down of their own2 volition; correct?3 A. No.4 Q. So Mr. Chasse didn't go down of his own5 volition either?6 A. No.7 Q. Okay. From where you were sitting, how did8 you see Mr. Chasse hit the ground? What position was9 he in?10 A. He came around the corner. He landed on the11 ground on his left side hitting hard. Is that what12 you asked me?13 Q. Okay. On his - - so he landed on his left14 side. I thought earlier you had said he landed on15 his - - so that his head hit?16 A. His head did hit. He hit on his left side.17 Q. Okay. So what you saw was you saw his head18 hit hard - -19 A. M-hm.2 Q . - - is that right?21 A. Yes.22 Q. And at the end of this, the - - the reason23 why you were concerned about injuries was that from24 where you were sitting you thought his injuries were25 possibly a concussion and possibly a shoulder



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1 dislocation - -2 A. Yes.3 Q. - - is that right?4 And did you see any other injuries?5 A. NO.

Q. What were the - - the statures of the policeofficers?

A. I'm sorry, the stature?Q. The statures.A. The statures.

I would guess - - I mean, I - - as I recall,they were probably - - none of them were super tall. Iwould - - I would say that they were all between fivenine to six feet tall, built. You know, they had - - Imean, average build. I wouldn't consider any of themsuper buff or super slim or any - - I mean, they werejust average build.

Q. Okay. Did you hear any commands being givenby the officers when Mr. Chasse was on the ground?

A. I think they said stay down and then I heardthe don't bite me, and that was it.

Q. And after the struggle was over, did you seeany injuries on any of the officers?

A. No.Q. Did you see any of the paramedics who



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1 arrived on the scene give any medical attention to the2 officers?3 A. Not to my recollection, no.4 Q. And I think that you testified that the5 struggle went on for about five minutes. Is that6 right?7 A. Yes.8 Q. Were you at all surprised that Mr. Chasse9 was able to keep the officers at bay for five minutes?10 MR. STEENSON: Objection, argumentative,11 leading. Go ahead.12 Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) You can answer.13 A. Can you restate that?14 Q. Were you surprised? You described15 Mr. Chasse as being thin, about five - - about five16 nine, you described the officers as being between five17 nine and six feet, pretty average build. And you also18 testified that the struggle went on for five minutes.19 Were you at all surprised that Mr. Chasse was able to2 keep these officers at bay for five minutes?21 MR. STEENSON: Same objections.22 THE WITNESS: Surprised? I'm not sure if23 surprised is the word. I was - - I thought it went on2 a while. I thought that - - I thought he was in great25 distress and that - - whether it was adrenaline pumping



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1 through him, that he was trying to protect himself. I2 don't know why he continued to struggle, but he was - -3 he did struggle.4 Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) And he - -5 A. So was I surprised? I guess a little bit, I6 don t know.7 Q. Well, wouldn't you have thought that three8 officers should have been able to get him under9 control in a shorter period of time?10 MR. STEENSON: Objection, calls for11 speculation.12 THE WITNESS: I - - I don't know.13 Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) Well, did he continue to be14 combative during the entire five minutes?15 MR. STEENSON: Objection, argumentative,16 leading. Go ahead.17 THE WITNESS: No, he was not combative18 during the entire. He was - - he was still struggling19 and - - he struggled. He - - and he - - and he tried to20 get out of their hold.21 Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) So he continued to be22 resistive the entire time?23 A. Yes, he was resistive, yes.2 Q. Okay. And from where you were sitting, the2 officers continued during that time, to try to stop



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1 him from resisting?2 MR. STEENSON: Objection, calls for3 speculation.4 THE WITNESS: Yes, they tried to restrain5 him. They - - they wanted him to stop. They wanted6 him to be quiet on the ground.7 Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) Which he was refusing to8 do?9 A. He - - he was struggling and he was still10 saying no and he was moaning during that course of11 that five minutes, so he was still struggling.12 Q. Okay. So for five minutes he continues to13 struggle and resist, the officers continue to try to14 get him to stop struggling and resisting - -15 A. M-hm.16 Q. - - is that correct?17 A. Yes.18 Q. Okay. How was it that you found out that19 Mr. Chasse died?20 A. I happened to be watching the 11 o'clock21 news that evening and heard that a man in police22 custody had died, and then the next morning Melissa23 Gaylord called me and said, oh, my gosh, it's - - it's2 the same guy we saw, so that's how I found out that25 that was the same man. I didn't know it was the same

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1 until that next morning.2 Q. Do you remember - - do you have a normal3 station you watch for the 11 o'clock news?4 A. Channel 8 .5 Q. And then when were you contacted by the6 detectives?7 A. A few days later.8 Q. And how was it that they knew to contact9 you?

10 A. Melissa had given them my name.11 Q. When you were answering questions for12 Mr. Landrum I believe that you said that you thought13 that the officers had used excessive force.14 A. Yes.15 Q. Okay. What specific acts were taken by16 the - - the officers that you believed were excessive?17 A. They used a lot of bodily force to hold him18 down there. I mean, they - - there was a lot of19 intensity in their faces to keep him down there. You2 could see that they were working hard to keep him21 there. And when I saw the officer appear to strike2 him, that seemed excessive to me.23 Q. Okay. So the first thing that you believe24 to be excessive was that they were holding him down;25 is that right?



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A. The - -MR. STEENSON: Misstates her testimony.THE WITNESS: The intensity of how they were

holding him down seemed excessive.Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) Well, was - - from where you

were sitting, were they holding him down more thanMr. Chasse was trying to struggle?

MR. STEENSON: Objection, to the extent itcalls for speculation.

Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) That's all right. You havea right to your opinion.

A. Yes, I think they were holding him harderthan he needed to be held.

Q . Why is that? Why do you think that?A. Because he - - because he - - he stopped

struggling and they continued to hold him.Q. Okay. What were they doing when he stopped

struggling and they continued to hold him?A. What were who doing, the police - -Q. What were the officers doing, m-hm.A. They continued to apply pressure to his back

with their knees and - - and then they were doing therestraining with whatever devices they were using.

Q. So he stopped struggling but they were stillholding him down?

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1 A. Yes.2 Q . And that's what concerned you?3 A. Yes.4 Q. Okay. Were they doing anything other than5 just holding him down?6 A. I don't recall. I mean - -7 Q. Well, at what point during this - - at some8 point did you see handcuffs applied?9 A. A - - well, his arms were continuing to be10 wrenched behind his back and the force - - that was the11 part that I thought was really excessive, too, was the12 arms. I mean, he was not moving his arms at all13 because they were - - they were so pulled behind his - -14 and up, you know. I mean, it was a very unnatural15 position for your arm to be in. And I couldn't say if16 it was handcuffs. They applied some kind of a hand17 restraint.18 Q. And the - - he was handcuffed with his arms19 behind his back?20 A. Yes.2 Q. Okay, okay. So they were holding him down2 and that concerned you; correct?23 A. Yes.2 Q. And they were pulling his arms behind his25 back and that concerned you?

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A. Yes.Q. Okay. What else concerned you that leads

you to believe that there was excessive force?A. That he was moaning so loudly, you know, and

was obviously in great distress.Q. Okay. Anything else?A. No.Q. Okay. Did you - - did you witness any

strikes being - -A. I saw the officer in front appear to strike

him.Q. But when you were considering whether or not

there was excessive force, that wasn't one of thethings that you considered - -

A. Yes, that was - -Q. - - excessive - -A. - - that was something I thought was

excessive.Q. At some point I believe you said that you

heard someone say, one of the officers, don't bite me?A. Yes.Q. Okay. Do you know - - have any recollection

whether or not the officer who said don't bite me wasalso the officer who punched him - -

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Q. - - punched Mr. Chasse?It was the same officer?

A. Yes.Q. Did it seem to you like it just wasn't a

fair fight?MR. STEENSON: Objection, vague,

argumentative.THE WITNESS: Fair is such a relative term.

He - - there were three guys on one. It seemed like - -Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) It just wasn't a fair

fight?MR. STEENSON: Same objections.THE WITNESS: That three guys on one, it was

obvious who was going to win the fight.Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) M-hm.

Have you ever seen anybody arrested before?Before Mr. Chasse, had you ever seen anybody arrested?

A. Yes.Q. Where?A. I saw somebody arrested at a mall one time.Q. Can you describe the circumstances of that

arrest?A. He was caught shoplifting, they turned him

around, put his handcuffs on and took him out. Hedidn't argue or struggle.



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1 Q . Have you ever seen anybody arrested where2 there was a struggle?3 A. No.4 Q. And have you ever seen a fight? I mean, not5 on TV, not in the ring, I mean, not a - - you know, not6 even in martial arts, but have you ever seen - - been7 somewhere where ordinarily in my experience it would8 be two males engaged in some kind of physical contact9 in a bar, on the beach, somewhere?10 A. I don't remember ever being in - - you know,11 witnessing a fight.12 Q. Could you pass that over.13 (DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NO. 303 was marked for14 identification.)15 THE WITNESS: Am I going to have to read16 something?1 7 Q . (By Ms. Dunaway) You just have to look at18 something.19 Does that look familiar?20 A. M-hm.21 Q. Can you figure out what that is?22 A. Yeah.2 Q. Okay. Can you first mark - - you see the2 tables - -25 A. M-hm.

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Q. - - for the Blue Hour?Can you mark, put - - put your initials where

it was that you were sitting?A. Okay.Q. Okay. And - - and also like position them

on - - where on the table actually.A. I put an X on the side of the table.Q. Okay. Can you put your initials there?A. Okay.Q. Okay. Can you put a No. 1 where it was that

you first saw Mr. Chasse and the officers?A. Is this - - okay. This is - - this is the

building and this is the sidewalk? I just want tomake sure I'm - - this is the curb?

Q. Right.A. This is the sidewalk?Q. This is the sidewalk, right here.A. Okay.Q. So where was it that - -A. I probably saw them first like right about

here.Q. Okay. And can you put - -

23 A. Or you want a No. l?2 4 Q. - - a No. 1.2 5 A. M-hm.



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1 Q. And can you put a No. 2 on where the2 officers were with Mr. Chasse when they went down?3 A. I'd say it was probably - - it was probably4 around here.5 Q. Okay. And then a No. 3 where they were when6 the struggle was over?7 A. It was still in the same vicinity.8 Q. Same area?9 A. M-hm.

1 0 Q . Okay. Now, I don't know if you're going toI1 have enough room on there. Could you put a stick12 figure just showing me where Mr. - - how Mr. Chasse was13 lying, direction of his head and his feet.14 A. It's a good thing I teach preschool.1 5 Okay. He was facing this direction, but it1 6 was more over in this area.1 7 Q. Okay. And when the - - the struggle was1 8 over, from where he was lying, from where you have the1 9 stick figure for Mr. Chasse, can you put an arrow20 indicating the direction that his face was - - was2 1 facing at the end of the struggle? So was it22 facing - -23 A. It was facing us.24 Q . When he was lying on the ground, was he25 facing the Blue Hour or - -



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A. M-hm.Q. - - away?A. Yes, he was facing the Blue Hour.Q. And you put an X - -A. I put an arrow by his face.Q. Okay. Did you stand up to watch?A. Did I stand up to watch?Q. Did you stand up to watch?A. No.Q. What were the other - - I'm assuming there

were other patrons who were at the Blue Hour at thattime?

A. Yes.Q. What were they doing during the struggle?A. We were all watching it.Q. And everybody was just kind of sitting down

watching the struggle?A. No. I believe that some people closer to

the Everett side were standing up.Q. Was there anyone sitting in - - at the table

to your - - that would be - - it would be on your left-hand side?

A. The last table in the row?Q. M-hm.A. Yes, there were.

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1 Q. Did you know those people?2 A. No. But we had a conversation with them.3 Q . You did?4 A. M-hm.5 Q. Okay. Who were they? I mean, what was your6 conversation?7 A. They were two gentlemen in for a food show8 from out of town.

Q. From - - do you remember where they werefrom?

A. I think maybe one was from San Francisco, Ithink maybe the other one was from New York.

Q. Do you remember anything about thatconversation?

A. I do, only because my husband also works inthe specialty foods area. And they mentioned acompany that he worked with, that's where they hadbeen, and so that's how the conversation kind of gotstarted.

Q. Was that conversation before or after theincident with Mr. Chasse?

A. It was before - - or kind of during.Q. During, during the entire incident?A. I'm not sure during the five minutes or

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1 Q. The entire incident meaning from the time2 you saw them until everybody's gone.3 A. It was probably during and after.4 Q. Did you talk with those people about the

incident as it was occurring?A. Yes.Q. And do you remember anything that - - that

they said to you about the incident?A. Welcome to Portland, that - -Q. That's what they said?A. They made kind of a joke about it and then,

you know, just how awful and not exactly what wewanted to see on a Sunday and was he okay. I mean, itwasn't any - - I couldn't speak to specifics. I don'trecall.

Q. But you did talk with them and you talked tothem about - - I guess about your husband's work alittle bit?

A. Yes.Q. And where does your husband work?A. My husband works for New Seasons Markets.Q. ~ n dou never got their names?A. No.

(Discussion off the record.)Q. (By Ms. Dunaway) That 's all I have.



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1 EXAMINATION2 BY MS. BACK:3 Q . I'm sorry to put you through this. I know

it's a long morning.A. That's okay.Q. It's just in the process of the deposition

this is really just the one opportunity that we haveto talk to you before trial - -

A. M-hm.Q. - - to kind of figure out what you have to

say about this and so it's really important that weall just understand, from your perspective, what yousaw and what you heard, so we're really not trying toput you through an ordeal.

My name is Jean Back. I represent theambulance company and the paramedics that arrived thatday. And I just have a few questions for you - -

A. Okay.Q. - - with respect to what you saw.A. Could I ask - - I never was introduced to

her.Q. Oh, absolutely.

MS. DUNAWAY: Oh, I'm so sorry. SusanDunaway, Multnomah County and the green uniform.

THE WITNESS: The green, okay.Schmitt & Lehmann, Inc.

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1 Q. (By Ms. Back) Okay. So my - - most of my2 questions are just going to basically concern what you3 remember about that point - - period of time when the4 paramedics were there. And I guess what I want to5 know first is what do you remember about the emergency6 vehicles arriving, not police vehicles but the other7 vehicles, and which one arrived first, if you can tell8 me

A. I think they arrived pretty simultaneously.I would say that the emergency services arrived firstand then the fire truck.

Q. Okay. And do you remember seeing people getout of those vehicles?

A. I saw the paramedics get out of the truck.Q. And what do you remember about - - did you

remember seeing what they did when they got out of thetruck?

A. They got out of the truck. They went andgot, you know, the box with supplies I was assumingand they put on gloves and - -

Q. Do you remember what color of gloves theywere wearing?

A. Maybe purple.Q. Okay. And do you remember how many there

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A. How many paramedics?Q. M-hm.A. There were two.Q. Were they - - what sexes were they?A. One was a man and one was a woman.Q . Okay. And what do you remember seeing?

Which one got the box?A. I think the woman got the box.Q. Okay. And then what do you remember seeing?A. And then I remember her going down by his

head, Mr. Chasse's head, and - - and then at that pointI kind of just stopped watching.

Q. Do you remember at all, between the timethat she left her vehicle and the time that she gotdown by his head, any conversations with the policeofficers there?

A. I do recall her talking to one of the policeofficers.

Q . Now, could you hear, from where you were,what they were saying?

A. No.Q. At - - but you could hear Mr. Chasse?A. I could hear him.Q . Okay. And at this time, was - - was he - -

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1 was he doing? I don't want to put words in your2 mouth3 A. He - - he was lying on the ground in that4 kind of semi-fetal position, his hands were behind his5 back, his legs were pulled up behind him, and he was6 kind of crouched into himself and he was just moaning7 a lot.8 Q. Could you tell at any time - - let me9 backtrack just a bit to after he was restrained. Did10 you ever observe a time when he stopped moving?11 A. There was a - - a short period of time that12 he stopped - - that it got real quiet.13 Q. And now, you've had - - been in the position14 where you've had to restrain children before.15 A. M-hm.16 Q. Have you ever had an occasion or17 experienced, after a child kind of fights to be18 restrained, if they stop just kind of go quiet for a19 while? Is that a - - something that you've ever2 experienced?21 A. Yes.2 Q. And did - - did it seem like that's what was23 going on with Mr. Chasse at that point in time?24 MR. STEENSON: Objection, vague.25 Q. (By Ms. Back) That he had just been

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restrained and - -A. I think he had - - yeah, he was restrained

and I don't - - yeah, he seemed quiet at that point.Q. Did - - could you tell whether he was

breathing?A. I couldn't tell that. I assumed he was

still breathing 'cause he was moaning still, so - -Q. He was still making noises?A. Not - - not continual (indicating verbally),

you know, kind of moaning but you'd hear (indicatingverbally)

Q. Did you hear anything else coming from himbesides what you're describing as moaning?

A. No. He just kept saying no, it hurts, ow.Q. Any other words that you could make out?A. Hm-m.Q. And so let's get back in time to when the

paramedic gets there. And I'm not - - I don't want toput words in your mouth, so - - but my recollection isyou said you thought you observed some conversationwith the officers?

A. M-hm.Q. Okay. And then what happened after that?A. It appeared that they, you know, examined

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1 Q. Now, let's go back to say - - 'cause, you2 know, Mr. Landrum went over the rules of depositions3 but I really don't want you to guess. I want you4 to - - if you can't - - if you don't know the answer - -5 and I'm not trying to lecture you, but we - - none of6 us want to - - we want to know exactly what you know,7 and if it's a guess it's not going to be helpful to8 you or to us. So do you know - - you say it appeared.9 Did you see them examine her at - - examine Mr. Chasse10 at all?11 A. I saw her go down

chasse deposition: loghry transcript

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