challenging 3.5 and pathfinder parties 2 17 13

8/20/2019 Challenging 3.5 and Pathfinder Parties 2 17 13

1/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] 1/31

TABLE OF CONTENTS

CHAPTER 1: IntroCHAPTER 2: Challenging Us

CHAPTER 3: Phases o Challenge ! It"s #ostl$ a #atter o Le%elCHAPTER &: #$ E'(erien)es

CHAPTER *: Anal$+ing the Ar)ane ,arrior -./ish0CHAPTER : Core Is Unalan)e4CHAPTER 5: Chara)ter Roles

CHAPTER 1: INTRO

,hat To Rea4I $o6 rea4 nothing else7 rea4 the ol4e4 (6r(le te't8

I highl$ recommend reading and meditating on this entire document. It explains thecapabilities of D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder so well.

mailto:[email protected]:[email protected]:[email protected]


2/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] /31

CHAPTER 2: CHALLEN/IN/ USCreat6re Reso6r)esAll )reat6res ha%e %ario6s reso6r)es9 Some have spells and some have levels, butall creatures have these resources

Base Atta); Bon6s -BAB

Sa%es

S;ill (ointsFeats

Hit Points -HPInitiati%e 6en)$9 In general, a resourcefalls into one of these categories

Per Ro6n4: !ll creatures normall# get standard action, move action, and swiftaction per round. %ven abilities usable at'will are usuall# onl# usable once per round.

Per ? Ro6n4s: (artial maneuvers )Tome of Battle* are can be recovered b# spendingtime in battle. (ost maneuvers are a +Per -ounds or +Per %ncounter resource.

Per En)o6nter: (artial maneuvers )Tome of Battle* are recovered at the start of an

encounter.

!lso, the usefulness of some spells' especiall# buffs and crowd control spells' are

handiest at the start of an encounter. /sing them after the threat is mostl# neutrali0edwould be a waste.

Per ? En)o6nters: (inute per level and longer spells usuall# fall into this categor#.1asting shield so it lasts 2 minutes helps as much for the first encounter it"s used as

the last. -ecasting it during a fight means nothing, save that it will extend the time.

Per @a$: ote that for short enough da#s and lifespans, +Per Da# resources act as

+Per %ncounter or +Per 4ifetime resources.

D&D spells are famous for their ancian spell slot s#stem, where each shot )spell prep*

is used and removed.



3/31


Some magic items )Pearls of Power* and class features )a 6arbarian"s -age* are usable

so man# times per da#.

Per ? @a$s: 7hese resources are rare mostl# because trac$ing them is cumbersome.

! D&D 3.5 Paladin can remove disease a certain number of times per wee$.

Per Le%el: 7hese resources are rare in part because levels are meant to be abstract,but also because people want to use abilities more fre8uentl# than once per level.

%ver# creature gets 6!6, saves, s$ill points, feats, or9and :P ever# level. ;hile having

higher numbers in these areas is generall# preferred, the# are not special and I shall not

touch on them further here.

! D&D 3.5 !rtificer gets a 1raft -eserve, or an amount of experience points usable toma$e magic items without spending his own. 7his is set to a new value ever# !rtificer

level and unspent points are lost.

!lso, !ction Points from Eberron Campaign Setting, d and ever# 3 levels thereafter. In Pathfinder, general

feats come at level 5 and ever# < levels thereafter.

Per Lieti


4/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] !/31

the# don"t affect all of the enemies. 1hances are someone will escape from an area

crowd control spell. %ven is this contained state, enemies can still hurt and even $ill ifone side is unluc$# or careless.

=or example, if a pac$ of half'dragon giant slugs is entangled in a web spell, the# canstill use their breath weapon despite having their movement hampered. Downing one as

8uic$l# as possible is advised as next turn the# ma# all brea$ free.

!lternativel#, the group"s casters could all be disabled )stunned, nauseated, grappled,

and so on* while the front'liners tr# fight to wave after wave of unrelenting enemies.

Un)ertain9 In the combat"s current state, the victor is #et to be determined. /suall#,

these are the memorable fights if for nothing besides their difficult#. Smart tactics,reinforcements, and luc$ pla# critical roles in determining a victor.

Sometimes, uncertain level fights are hallmar$s of balance. @ften, the# happen on

accident, such as when one side boldl# fights an overwhelming force and gains some

reasonable chance of success.

Balan)ing En)o6ntersNot e%er$thing $o6 ight =ill e a le%ela((ro(riate )hallenge9 Not e%er$thing

$o6 in4 sho6l4 e o6ght9

Le%ela((ro(riate )hallenges go oth =a$s9 Sometimes, enemies are there Aust to

ta$e up space. 7he# contribute mostl# to the bod# count, and to absorb enem# actions.

@n the other end, the 6ig Scar# 1reatureB doesn"t seem so scar#. (a#be he does.-egardless, if the part# is outmatched, fleeing is the wise and sane thing to do. Pla#er

instincts ma# go, +;uhC when a well'prepared level 5 group encounters severalcreatures meant for level 2 characters and is expected to flee.

The en%iron


5/31


CHAPTER 3: PHASES OF CHALLEN/E !

IT"S #OSTL A #ATTER OF LEEL

Phases IntroIn D&D 3. and Pathfinder, there are a few distinct phases, based on the groups level

and assumed access to resources, especiall# magic. 7hese phases are 8uite

intentionall# lin$ed to a full caster"s highest spell level.

I don"t guarantee #our game will wor$ exactl# li$e this. Perhaps roc$et tag will becommon from level , or !1 will remain important until level 5. 7hese, however, are

generalities collected from man# accounts and anal#sis of D&D"s mechanics.

Phase I: /ritt$ #e4ie%al Fantas$Le%els 1 -S(ell Le%els 13

@@ )hara)ters ha%e si


6/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] "/31

=ailing a -eflex save ma# be deadl# at low levels, but is mostl# an inconvenience.

=ailing a =ortitude save usuall# means #ou"re poisoned or diseased. =ailing a ;ill saveusuall# means #ou"re someone"s pet for a fight or a few hours.

@eath is a serio6s threat9 ! dead all# is probabl# out of the game. %ven if raisedead is available, at 5222G per use. In 3.5, there"s also a lost level. In Pathfinder,

there"s an extra 222G cost for restoration. %ither ma# brea$ the deal.

#elee gets to eel (o=er6l9 #artial a4e(ts


7/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] #/31

#agi)al re)on is han4$7 6t


8/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] $/31

1reatures with meager 1@ scores )less than > after items* are usuall# as$ing to die if

tr# to melee. 7he# ma# die regardless from area effects.

Resistan)es an4 i


9/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] %/31

'mass suggestion )6ard5, ;i0>*

' persistent image )6ard5, ;i05*' programmed image )6ard>, ;i0>*

Casters get *

' permanenc );i05*'stone shape )1le3, Druid3, ;i0*

'wall of iron );i0>*'wall of stone )1le5, Druid>, ;i05*

Chara)ters )an inall$ 6$ ite


10/31


can probabl# dimension door through a wall into un$nown territor# to b#pass a deadl#

trap or an anno#ing riddle. /nless #ou"re certain doing this is wise, #ou"re as$ing for alot of trouble.

Send a summonling or hireling through the danger 0one instead and if he survives, #ou

have reconF !t least be nice and turn him invisible first.

Phase III: ,6'iaGS6(erheroesLe%els 131 -S(ell Le%els 5

@@ )hara)ters ha%e entere4 the #atri'9 -ealit#, in large part, has become the

group"s pla#thing. 7he# probabl# aren"t gods #et, but D&D characters relate more tosupernatural beings than mere mortals.

HP 4a


11/31


don"t rel# on beating S- to do their thing.

Pre(are or ro);et tag8 ow, survival is mostl# a matter of who goes first and

unleashes their super abilit# or ultra combo. If #ou somehow don"t go first and survive,

show #our assailants the errors of their wa#s.

If there is a sa%e7 ailing it 6s6all$ *, an orb of force )Spell Compendium 5* or a heavil# augmented summonling or

minion'calling spell.

@eath an4 (er


12/31


contact other plane and get scooped on what spells to prepare for that time period,

clone himself a bac$up self, and enslave cities with charm 9dominate all in the same da#.

-eall#, a ;i0ard can access ever# spell if onl# indirectl#. ! Solar in 3.5 casts spells as a

1leric Druid spells, and theres probabl# some extraplanar!rchivist, Psion, %rudite, !rtificer, or Rclass name whod be willing to help #ou for a

large enough bribe or a strong enough charm 9dominate monster . 0ate one in' if onl# b#

a magic item' and have a ball, or better #et, a prismatic sphereF

#one$ is al


13/31


The


14/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] 1!/31

might find #ou useless due to #our lac$ of self'sufficienc#. %ven if magic is unreliable,

having it is better than lac$ing it.

If there is a sa%e7 ailing it


15/31


H"$now how these are normall# expensive to put on items but casters can dedicate a slot

or few to ma$e these things run continuousl#C

H"see where I"m goingC

#agi)al re)on isn"t all it"s )ra);e4 6( to e9 Hou ma# $now !smodeus has

minions of t#pe H in his lair at all times, but are #ou sure it"s his real lairC %ven if it is,

how can #ou swoop in there, survive his defenses, win roc$et tag, and escape aliveCDoing this via simulacrum or astral projection helps, but expect retaliation even if ou

succeed%

=or lower life forms, $eeping tabs is usuall# eas#. =or ever#thing else, #ou must be

1ra0# PreparedB.

Chara)ters still nee4 antasti)


16/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] 1"/31

CHAPTER &: # E?PERIENCESIntroI D(ed a 3.5 campaign set in een that spanned levels to


17/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] 1#/31

)I $now that"s


18/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] 1$/31

I e'(e)te4 )hara)ters to gain a le%el e%er$ 3& =ee;s9 /sing D&D 3.5"sexperience s#stem, this was closer to 3 wee$s per level on average, but pla#ers li$ed it,

and we adapted to the levels.

I relie4 on large n6


19/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] 1%/31

NPCs a))o6nte4 or


20/31


CHAPTER *: ANALIN/ THE ARCANE

,ARRIOR -./ISH0

The A4%antages o /ishes/reater stailit$ =hen not rel$ing on


21/31


Spell )Complete Arcane* or a prere8uisite for a Pr1 that #ou want will have to wait.

!lso, #ou ;I44 ta$e Practiced Spellcaster and Improved Practiced Spellcaster

)homebrew* if allowed. 1aster levels are that important.

Le%el )r6n)h9 =ull casters can get Pr1s with minimal 6!6 and do Aust fine. Hour levels

need to advance casting and provide enough 6!6 and :P to Austif# #our dualit#. 1ertain

buffs )especiall# 3.5"s polmorph* ma$e up for this.

:eav# multiclassing means meeting perhaps man# sets of prere8uisites. =eats will belost in the ma$ing of #our gish.

Ite< )r6n)h9 Gishes need items that boost their ph#sical stats and their casting stat.@ther items not normall# viable for a full caster or full warrior suddenl# become viable,

li$e a Pearl of Power.

Stat )r6n)h9 ;arrior'heav# gishes have onl# as much in their casting stat as the#

need to get their spells and put the rest into ph#sical stats. 1aster'heav# gishes do theopposite.

S(ell )r6n)h9 Gishes tend to focus their spells on buffing themselves so the# can dothe things a normal warrior could do, with some additional tric$s. 7his means less room

for crowd controlling, social interaction, and other non'combat spells.

If the gish is a ;i0ard, there"s a speciali0ation crunch. (ost gishes are 7ransmuters for

the extra buffs. (ost crowd controller ;i0ards are 1onAurers.

S;ill )r6n)h9 1aster s$ills and martial s$ills greatl# differ, meaning #our s$ill points

are sun$ into prere8uisites. Gish Pr1s ma# not have the class s$ills #ou want.

Hea%$


22/31


CHAPTER : CORE IS UNBALANCE@Intro(athfinder Core and the D&D 3.5 (laer’s -andbook have options for various st#les andpower levels. Social games, pu00le games, and non'combat games are possible and

perhaps interesting within the rules, but the heart of the s#stem is about going to exoticplaces, $illing things, and ta$ing their stuff. ;h#C 6ecause we canF It"s fun, tooF

%ven within the core rules, there are disparities in terms of power. ot all classes aree8uall# viable in a situation or even a campaign. ot even close. 7his similarl# applies

to feats, s$ills, items, and spells, although items are too big a subAect to full# elaborateupon here.

6eing unbalanced isn"t necessaril# badU it allows for various campaigns of differingpower levels. !s a G(, pic$ the options #ou want in #our game and tal$ to #our pla#ers

about 8uestionable tactics and material.

B6t is it Bro;enMIt (roal$ isn"t ro;en9 DBro;en" in this )onte't


23/31


=or another example, if a caster enAo#s pre'buffing the part# into uberness, dispel magicis probabl# appropriate )to undo his progress, in the cases its called for* or facing even

more uber foes which account for part# buffs. (ind #ou, actions spent dispelling )and

buffing* are actions not spent directl# $illing the opposition.

The CR s$ste< 4e


24/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] !/31

Divinations spoil plots that demand hiding information, but their use can still provide a

challenge if the secrets the# obtain are part of a greater challenge.

Hou ma# learn the secret path in the dragon"s lair, but it"s filled with lots of danger #ou

can"t Aust wal$ or teleport past.

The ga


25/31


Co6nters: Spellblade weapon enchantment )(laer’s 0uide to /aerun


26/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] "/31

Pathfinder $eeps freedom of movement and true seeing as'is. )eath ward provides a

bonus against VDeathW effects but otherwise $eeps its immunit# to negative energ#.3ind blank got gutted, and provides onl# E3 more against divinations and mind'

affecting abilities than the E5 1loa$ of -esistance #ou"re expected to have at level 5.

Co6nters: )ispel magic . 1ounterspelling. Situations where the immunit# isn"t worth it.

Res6rre)tion9 Spells that raise the dead are more a problem for world consistenc#.);h# assassinate someone #ou believe has the resources to be raisedC* !dventuring

parties depend on these to $eep going.

Co6nters: 4ac$ of material components. 7he soul is not free or is not willing to return.

Stopping someone without $illing him li$e with flesh to stone. 4ong'dead creatures can"tbe revived with such magic.

Simulacrum9 7his is a level K spell and meant to be powerful. I"m not sure how this

was intended to be used, but as written, it can ma$e whatever creature #ou need but at

half its :D. In man# cases, #ou can ma$e a creature that"s stronger than #ou withenough rub# dust and in 3.5, experience points.

eeding a bod# part is normall# a deterrent, except bod# parts have no listed gold cost,

and ever# caster worth his spells at least one of these

Spell Component Pouch: A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the materialcomponents and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine

focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch. – Player’s Handbook 3.5 page 130 and Pathfinder Core page

161

Co6nters: 4ac$ of material components. Interrupted casting time. Desired creaturedoesn"t exist in this campaign setting or is be#ond #our ?nowledge chec$. 1reatures

become a greater liabilit# than asset.

Tele(ortation9 Teleport is a staple ;i0ard spell. ;ho doesn"t want to 0ip around the

universe in > seconds or lessC

@ne problem is nullif#ing the thrill of hard'won discover#. !lso, being able to pop into a

location for which the G( is unprepared often is as$ing for trouble.

Societ#"s stabilit# depends on people needing proper access codes. 6an$ vault securit#

is useless against someone who can Aump in, ta$e what he wants, and leave with barel#a trace.

4ong'range teleportation can also mean popping out when in trouble, resting a da#, and

popping bac$ in as if nothing bad happened. (an# games alread# do something similar

but with parties resting in the dungeon."

6lind teleporting is as$ing for trouble, but if #ou can scr on a target, prepare to ambushhim, teleport to him, and ta$e him out without him reali0ing what went on, wh# wouldn"t

#ouC



27/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] #/31

Co6nters: )imensional anchor , dimensional lock* forbiddance, silence. Difficultdecisions and situations upon arrival.

Time stop9 ow the universe wor$s on #our scheduleF

(ore seriousl#, time stop is a level M spell, the most powerful non'epic spell level there

is. -oc$et tag at this level almost demands time stop to grant enough rounds to dowhat #ou need.

Co6nters: Spell Stowawa# time stop )epic feat*. 1ounterspelling. 6loc$ing line of

effect with wall of force, forcecage, or prismatic wall . /sing antimagic field s where #ou

don"t want time stoppers to go.

ClassesClasses =or; 4ierentl$ in (la$ than in theor$9 E%en an o(ti


28/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] $/31

The est (la)e or a %er$ (o=er6l )aster to e in a gro6( o .=ea;0 non

)asters is as s6((ort. !s a ;i0ard, #ou could cast flesh to stone on the 6ig 6addieand hope he fails his save. If he fails, he"s gone but the part# didn"t get to do an#thing

significant. If he passes, there went a spell and an action.

,hat ao6t a gro6( o 6ll )astersM Some would sa# this is interpart# balance ta$en

to an extreme. -egardless, the group is self'sufficient or will soon be. =rom a pla#er"s

perspective, this means ever#one can contribute meaningfull# to non'redundant roles.

=rom a game master"s perspective, challenging the group ma# be more difficult. If thegroup has the right spell prepared, a solution is usuall# a standard action awa#.

Suddenl# ma$ing magic unreliable )antimagic field or wild magic 0ones* will probabl#turn the part# useless. I advise reading the rules and learning what spells counter #our

group"s favorite tactics. If #our ;i0ard li$es Evard’s black tentacles, include foes with

high grapple bonuses, tremendous si0e, greased clothing, or9and freedom of movement .

Al


29/31

Challenging 3.5 & Pathfinder PartiesBy Endarire - [email protected] %/31

Bin4er o 4e


30/31


CHAPTER 5: CHARACTER ROLESIntroIf core is unbalanced and the game doesn"t wor$ li$e we thin$ it does, then what do wedoC :ow will characters actC ;here in the world is 1armen SandiegoC

7raditional fantas# has the four roles of Snea$# (cPic$4oc$ )-ogue"*, 6eef# (c=ighter

)=ighter"*, 6uff# (c6andaid )1leric"*, and (agic (c(issile );i0ard"*.

;hile D&D 3.2 was balanced around the assumption of blaster ;i0ards and healer

1lerics, things didn"t turn out that wa#. D&D 3.5 1lerics got divine power to turn theminto front'liners comparable to the =ighter for a short time. !dd in divine favor ,

righteous might , praer , bless, spiritual weapon, and M levels of spells, and a =ighter"s

feats pale in comparison.

Similarl#, arcane casters can blast, but rarel# as well as a well'built melee character can

hit. !lso, arcane casters must use spell slots to shoot off a certain number of boom

spells per da#.

@nce people on the Internet tal$ed about D&D 3.x, man# people reali0ed that ma$ing

people fall down with grease or pu$e their guts out with stinking cloud was a more

efficient use of magical energies.

The #ain RolesUnli;e


31/31


DS;ill

challenging 3.5 and pathfinder parties 2 17 13

Documents