1061 r.SSEMB1L%-.1

ThIe Mfinister for Educantion : Tile definlitlo'.clause shows that it includes all these.

Hon, J,. -NICIIOLSO'N: That is tile position.It would Ire a pity if ire badl to instruct diree-toi's Of 'oni1panies who arc men supposed to be1 'ossesseul of :a little Common sense who Wouldnaturally only advance onl properties whichwvould be safe; to act onl the sug-gestion aul-minc-fl at the lpresent stage.

Progress repoirted.

Ito .qe ad ,otrncd at~ 9-733 pa.

Tne.vdoy, 191h October, ID30.

Question"s Railways, demurrageC;attle loss, tick fever..

Moation: Government businems, iaredenveBils:- Industrial Arbitration Act Alucndlnelit,

Message ..Stallions testlstratiua, 1R.........Prevention of Cruelly to Animals. I1k. ..Pulmle Service Appcal Beard, Sit......Lunacy Act Anenunent, 2s. ........city or Perth Endowment Lakndsq, Coin.Treasury Bonds Deficiency, 2R., orn., reportSPealth Act Continuation, 2it., Corn., report ..

Page106lose1080

10731073107510731073108810931005

Tile SPEAKER took the ('hair at 4.30p-.;., amid rend prayers.

QUESTION-RAILWAYS, DEMURRAGEJ.Mr. JONES asked the Minister for Rail-

wrays: What was the amount of demsurragepaid by Dalgety 's, Elder, Smith, 0 C., andWilcox & 'Mufin onl trucks of goods in thesheds at 'North Freusantle, Fremnantle, mndPerth, for fortnight ended Snttulay, October16th ?

The 'MIX STER FOR RAILWAYS re-plied: The amjount of demnulrrage incuirred.by the firms ialied at the stations enmer-ated during the period enided 16th October,1920, nas £504 17s.

QUESTfON-CATTLI LOSS. TIVCKFEVER.

Mr. DL-RA(K asked the Honorary 'Min-ister: 1, Has the Stock Department -any in-formation confirming the heavy loss of cattlein shipments from Derby- to Fremantle saidto have taken place dnrinqr tile presenit ship-

pinig seasoll inl conseqoertce of tick fever?2, MVhat is the estimanted loss covering totalshipments of cattle from Perby this year?3, What action does thle Department p)urposetaking to try and remedy this in the future?4, Inl view of heav~y loss and wastage fromtick fever andl tick infestation, together withthe consequent spread of tick by travellingstock, will the department bring inl rcgila-lions making it compulsory for all cattle inthe Kinuberleys to he dlipped before leavingtheir runs?

The C'OLONIAL~ NEClIETARY (for tileHonorary Mtinister) replied: 1, The lossesfrom tick fever averaged about three perA-nut. 2, The estijmatedi losses fromt all causes.arc 616 head. The total ulniber shipped is17,11lA. ;i, A dlip was last year erected onl theFitzroy River to dleal wvith travelling stock,anid. prevent the southward spread of tick.In putrsiaiie of representations by the Coin-mionwealth Nstitute of Scienice aist Industry,a State commnittee was aprpoinred to adviseregarding thle appllicationl to this State of apro posed Federal scheme fur dealing w~it!;the question of tick eradication throughoutthle Common101wealth. The scheme conteni-plated co-operation with the States and ashaving of expenses. The committee rc-poorted to the Common weal th TInstitute ofReie 1ce and Induistry, anio the decision n1ltile Federal Governmlent has not yet beeneonimunicated. The committee's recm-mndation included the construction of for.tlher dlips iii suitabl localities. 'rile chair-man of the committee has been nmakiiig re-centt inquiries onl tile matter in Mfelbonru,,with a view to expedliting finality. 4, Thisiatter wrill be dealt with when the applics-

tiosi of the Federal schenme to this State isdeterinied.

MOTIO-OVERNM ENT BUSINESS,PRECEDENXCE.

The PR EMIEFR (Hon. J1. Mitchell-Northamn) [4.3.5]: 1 move-

T hat onl Wednesday, 27th October, andeach alternate Wednesday thereafter,Goveranslen buisiness shall take pre-cedence of alt msotions and orders of thleday, iii addition to the 'lays already piro-

v idedl.For eleveni weeks non- we have had Wedntes-(lays devoted to private niembers' business.A good deal of legislationi has yet to liebroughit before the Houke. It is usnal afterthe first two moniths or so to imove the mao-tion that I ain proposingz. Somne of thebusiness to bie brought before thle House wiillbe controversial. In thle course oif other ses-sinujs it has ben tonla j-,V to mlove this])otion at about the hireseiit stage, and Iami anxious not to sit here after the end orNovenuher.

Mr. O'Loghlca: WyThe PREMIER: Becausre it is getting

near Cliristutas, and( there arc quite goodreatsons.

1066

[19 OCToBEs, 1920.] 16

lion. P. Collier: Let us make our swanbong.

The PRE"MIER: 'Many of the matters tocom forward will not he controversial, andfI hope that the House wilt agree to the muo-tion,

lion. P. COLLIER (Bouldler) 14.38]: Itis, of course, a fact that as the session ad-vances epcli Year, thle leader of the Houseamoves to eliminate at least one privatemembers' day each fortnfight. That is u1su-ally done because after private membershave hadl eight or tea weeks, as mentionedlby the Premier, to dleal with matters thes-consider important, they have managed toget through most of the motions they desireto deal with. Another factor is that theNotice Paper at this stage is usuallycrowded with Glovernieut business, aud Irather think, having regard to the condi-tion of the Notice Paper, it would be muchmore equitable as far as memibers are conl-cened that two dlays should be devoted toprivate me"mber'- business.

Thme Premier: We w-ill pass this mnotionfirst.

lion. P. COLLIER: The Government busi-nless only consists of four or five uiiniport-ant Bills, whim-It could be dealt with inthree or four days, while members will1 ob-serve that there are at least two pages ofprivate members' business, all of which, 1think, is of more importance titan the Billswhich the G overnmen t have down for con-sideration.

The Premier: Sonle of these notices arevery loing, of course.

Hon. P. COLLTIR: They aire lotng, hut,whmat is more, the)- are inmportaiit. If pri-vate members ore to be deprived of onedany a fortinight, I mun afraid that the Pre-iujier will end the session at the beginningrather than at the end of November.

The Preniier: T wish I could.Hon. P. COLLIER: If we are gointg to

(-ose down ji Novembier and this is ourswnn song, T do not know that we shouldnot make it, if not mournful, at least aslong as possible. Mfembers will htave 10consider whether in the circumstances tlteythink they will hav-e sufficient time to doalwith the subjects onl the Notice Paper.Natturally. as the Premier says, it is usualin accordance with practice, to give thleGolvernmnent three dlays a week ait leastonce -a fortnigltt at this stage of thme ses-Sion).

'Mr. O'LOGHTLEN (Forrest) [4.431: I sina little surpised that the leader of the Opl-position has not put uip more pronouncedopposition to the motion.

The Premier: Whiy, he has done this him-self many a tinme.

'Mr. OtLOGIULEN: As hie has rigbitlypointed out, we have had a different stateof affairs existing at this stage of the seq-sion 'a previous y ears. XS a matter Of fact,the Notice Paper has very little of imiport-

ance on it, from the Government stand-point. It is customnary for Governments atthe end of a session to be anxious to getinto recess as qulickly as posible, before theelections. As ai matter of fact, mnemibersare aware that the third session is usuallythe one in which the most usefuil work isdone. In the first session Mnembers a refinding their feet, and in the second sessionvery little practical legislation is dealtwith.

'MTr. Hudson: You rnist be in favour ofsix-year Parliaments.

Mr. O'LOGUHL EN: That is not underdliscussioni, buLt many members approve otthat. If we take mnatters standing onl theNotice Paper, we find that many of thenmare of great significance.I do not say that the adoption of the motionitself would lead to mnuch' immediate relief,but certainly there is material in somea of themotions which deserves discussion by thilHouse and deserves a good dleal of attenm-tin at Ihe hands of the public.

The Premier: Yon will get an opportuityto discuss the motions.

\[r. 0 'LOGE LFN : 1 fear not; in fact Ifeel sure that we will niot. Take thle motionbr-ough t forward by time mnember for Gas-coyne ('%r. Angelo) relating to the treat-mient of this State by tile Federal Govern-ment. That is -a very important question.

Hon. 11. Collier: A fortnight's debate..\r. O'LOGHLEN: It could lbc profitably

debated for at least a couple of nights.Then take the matter of the petition from(eruiLdton.

Mr. Hardwiek interjected.Hon. P. Collier: There are several anotions

ini the namie of the miember for East Perth.'Mr. O'LOGIILENY: Titer are of no ini-

portauce. The question of manking availablepastoral areas, for returned soldiers-

The Attorney General: 1-ow ninny returnedsuldiers have signedl that petition'

Mr. 0 'LOCH 1LEN: T do lnt know, hut jiconversation with 'Mr. MecLartv I learnedthat in the Geraldtomi district liec had not asolitary farmn available for returned soldiers,.and that bie was prepared to buy any estateoffering there. In tile Geralditon districtno returned soldier, lie saidl, could get afurumt because none were available.

Thle 'Minister for M.Nines: You are antici-pating the motion.

1-on. P. Collier: That was in reply to aninterjection.

Mr. 0 'LOGI-I{LEN: Thle umotion for thedevelopment of trade with Java and Singa-heore is nan iinvortant one.

Eon. P. Collier: There would be no0 busi-ness during this sessiont but for pirivate mean-bers'I business.

'Ur. O'LOGHTLEN: The Notice Paperwould be bare but for the activity of p~riv'atemnembers.

The Preier: I irish it were hare.M,%r. 0 'LOGHFLEN: The question of liar-

neSginlg time tidles of thle 'North is no laughing

1067

'OCR ASSEMBLY.]

matter, though some nmembers seem to treatit with levity.

The Minister for Mines: What about thetides down here?

MVr. 0 'LOG-HLEN: The 'Minister for'Mes knows how to take then, at the flood.The question of harnessing the tides is oneon which ninny members are not comipetettto speak, simply because it is a scientificquestion which they have not studied.

The Minister for Mlines: What about aselect committee on itl

Mlfr. 0 'LOGHfLEN: A select committee

Hon. P. Collier: A waste of time.3\1 r. 'Munsie: 'Make it a Royal -Cominis-

aSion.Mr. 0 'LOOJILEN: It might be advisable

to get a report onl the Subject. The har-nessing of tides may prove to ble of verygreat significance to the future developmetof the North.

Mr. SPEAKER: The lion. mendber mustnot discuss the motions, but miust confinehis remarks to the question before the House.

Mr. 0 'LOCIILEN: I merely wish to cut-phasise that private members' business onlthe- Notic Paper is of outstanding import-ance as compared with G overnmnent business.

The Premier: Pitt ours through and wewill give you a neck onl the other business.

Afr. O'LOGULEN: I do not know thatthe Premier is showing any breakneckanxiety' to get through the Government busi-ness. le certainly has shown no desire forrapidity. Take the Government measures:what are they? There is the Rottnest IslandBill, a twopenny-hialfpenny measure whichdoes not miatter much to the progress ofWestern Australia whether it goes through ortiot. There are the Dentists and the Univer-sit,- Bills. The last named would occupy aematter of a couple of hours.

Mr. Underwood: Would itMr. O'LOGHTLEN: Well, its imiportance

would not warrant any greater time beingdevoted to it.

Mr. Underwood: The cutting out of itwould warrant a week.

Mr. O'LOGHLEN: The Public Service Ap-peal Board Bill is in its final stage, and inaddition there are the Lunacy and ArchitectsBills. They are fairly trivial measures. Thenthere are sonmc of the Siannua measures.

Mo,,. P. (Collier : Government business couldhe finished this week.

The Premier: Thank you!Mr. 0 'LOGIILEN: Recurring legislation

such as the Land Tax and Income Tax Billwould not take upl any' time worth mention-ing, and I fail to see the justificatioin forwiping off tlhe Notice Paper-that is what itamounts to-5. per cent, of the businessstanding in the inmes of private memubers.

The Premier: Let us settle down to busi-]less.

Mr. 0 'TOCIILE: The Prenmier shouldthink of settling uip. le wants to get intorecess in a fortnight. That is hi% goal andambiition.

-The Premier: I will give you six weeks.Mr. O'LOGKLEN: The Premier wants tw

get his Estimates through and he is notparticular as to the fate of some of the-Government Bills. The Factories and ShopsBill may take a long time, or it may go-through promptly. It all depends onl the temi-per of the opposition by organisationa whichare interested in the passage of the meas-wre. There is no meat at all in theGovernment measures. There is nothing inthem to warrant the Premnier's desire to de-prive private members of the business whichthey have put on the Notice Paper or of"discussing any business which they might de-sire to bring forward. The leader of the,Opposition has given, notice of half a dowen[notions.*

The Alinister for Mines: They are alFtrivial.

Mr. O'LOGIILEN: They are not triviar!and the 'Minister knows it. All his lifetime,the 'Minister has beent stressing the import-ance of them. For years lie has featured the-good effect which would follow the introduc-tion of such mnotions.

The Minister for Mines: Quite so, thergood effects which would follow such urn-tions, but you will not get any effect frontthese.

Mr. 0 'LOOBLEN: That merely shows ajack of sincerity onl the lpart of the Govern-mtent. If the Government were desirous of'carrying the motions, they would give effectto then, and introduce Bills following on thepassing of such motions. Suppose everymotion on the Notice Paper standing in thermne of a private member were carried, theGovernment would not follow it up by intro-during a Bill this session to give effect to.it. 'They might dto so next session. Therefore,there mlay' not he umuch utility from the pointof viewv of getting legislation this Session,but the pecople of the State have a right to,know that these matters are being discussed.'While they may appear to be trivial or un-important to many of us, the members whointroduced thenm doubtless had solid and validgrounds for bringing them forward. Thepublic requires to be educated in these mat-ters. Considering the state of the NoticePaper-and this is nmy only ground for op-posing the motion-i fail to see why the Gov-erntnent Aild desire to debar private mem.-hers from getting their motions consideredalid passed.

The 'Minister for Mines. It will not debarthem,.

.Mr. O'LOGHLEN: The Minister has hartsufficient experience to know that it will.

The 'Minister for Mines: They have alwayshad sufflicient opportunity.

Mr. O'LOCIILEN: No, they have not;once the Estimates are passed private meom-bers' business eat' go byv the board.

The Premier: Oh, Do!'Mr. fl'LOGHLEN. The Fronmier knows

better than to deny it.Fon. P. (dllier: The Premier says he is

going to close up niext month.

1069

[19 OCTOBER, 1920.] 10619

Mfr. 0'LOGHLEN: The Premier has notbeen quite frank with us.

The M1inister for Mines: It is not in-tended to close uip until the business is putthrough.

Mr. O'L)GIILEN: Once the Estimates arepassed, the Premier will want to go to thecountry for a few days and then there willnot be much time to consider private muem-hers' business. The Premier has proposi-tions on. hand for inspiecting sonic parts ofthe country. Further, it may be necessaryfor the Premier to go to Melbourne. A con-ference to dleal with the wheat is mootedand if he goes to Melbourne, this will meanthat the business will be expedited eveninore.

Mr. Munsie: If that is the ea~e, Mr. Pro-inier, you had better get away.

Mfr. 0 'LOORTLEN: I did not intend itin that way. The Government Bills are notof sufficient imlportance to warrant the pass-ing of this motion. The Government are notparticular whether several of their Bills arepassed. -Ministers, apart from those whoactually in trouced thke Bills owing to sonmelittle pressure, are not much interested inseveral of these measures.

Mr. Underwvood: They desire to drop them.Mr. O'LOOLILEN. Perhaps they do not

desire to drop them, hut they show no verygreat desire to get them passed. if themeasures are passed without much trouble oroppiosition, the Government will go on withthem. The state of the Notice Paper doesnot warrant the Government depriving pri-vate members of their opportunity. uringthis session msore than at any other time,private members should have this opportunitynot on account of approaching events, buton account of the barrenness of the NoticePaper. I trust that private members will re-tain for a few weeks longer the right todispose of the motions which they have con-sidered of sufficient worth to bring forward.If they are not able to defeat this motion,I hope they will show sufficient belief in theiraction in tabling the motions by fighting forthe retention of private members' day. ThePremier has made out no ease for deprivingmembers of time to discuss these motions,many of which are of outstanding import-ance compared iith the programme of theGovernment. I oppose the motion.

Mr. UNDERWOOD (Pilbara) (4.551: 1oppose the motion on similar grounds to thoseadvanced by the member for Forrest. Theleader of the Opposition and the member forForrest have n-eli pointed out that there is noGovernment business on the Notice Paperworth consideration. As members of Parlia-mrent we are now paid £400 a year and I seeno reason whatever why we should not sit atleast until Christmas.

T1he Premier: We probably shall.'Mr. UNDmERWOOD: If we shall, then there

is no reason for bringing this motion forwardto-day.

Hon. P. Collier: Better sit an extra day awreek to get through.

'Mr. UNDERWOOD: Yes; the pauc-ity ofGovernment business is partly due to cireurn-stances of the present times, but it restslargely with the Government themselves. Theproposals of the Government are scarcelyworthy of consideration. We of the National-1st party have laid it down that Parliament isto take charge of affairs.

Mr. Munsie: That was the ideal.Mr. UNDERWOOD: And as an idealist, I

am not getting away from it.Hon. P. Collier: Some of your members have

slipped.Mr. UNDERWOOD: But I have not dlone

so. Because the Government have no busi-ness to bring forward and do not intend tobring any forward, that is uo reason why pri-i-ate members should he debarred fromn bring-ing forward their business.

The Pr-emier: Ye,, will not lie debarred.Mr. L'NDERWOUD: We shall he. The ob-

ject of the motion, as stated by the Premier,is to close the session at the end of next mouth.

Mr. 0 'Loghlen : What hope would a privatemember have if hie gave notice of motion now?

Mr. tYNDEMWOOI): None wvhatev-cr. Eventhe motion al-out generating electricity bytides which the member for Forrest ridi-cults--

Mr. 0 toglilen: I did not ridicule it.lon. P. Collier: I think hie is much ii-

pressed by the possibilities.Mr. UNDERWOOD: Even that umotion is

uortb consideration for a night or two.Mr. 0 'Loghlen: I think so anyhow.Mr. UNDERWOOD: The very great lbenefit

which the successful harnessing of the tideswould confer oil Australia is worthy of evena week's debate. The Government have nobusiness on the Notice Paper and, therefore,they desire to close Parliament. If the Gov-ernment have no business they have no rightto prevent other members of Parliament frombringing forward their business.

The Premier: We do 'tot; you have broughtit forward.

Mr. UNDERWOOD: The Premier said liewanted to close the session next month. Whynot sit till the end of the month after that?

Mir. O'Loghlen: Another fourteen days.Mr. UNDERWOOD: Yes, why not sit for

another 14 days?. Why should Parliament notsit?

lHon. P. Collier: Why should]i Parliamentloaf on the job'

Mr. UNDERWOOD : I should like thePremier to answer that question. I think Par-liament met later this session than in any yearsince I have been in the House and that is 14years.

Hon. P. Collier: And the Premier wantsto close earlier and to loaf in between.

Mr. UNDERWOOD: The Premier wants toclose earlier. - I have always opposed theI.W.W. and I oppose the I.WW. in the per-sons of the members of the present Govern-ment and I oppose L.W.W. methods in thisParliament. I contend that, is view of theGovernment business on the Notice Paper,the motion is not warranted. If the Gov-

1070 [ASSEMBLY.]

em meat have no business to go on With,private menmbers have, and they should 1)0given an opportunity to go on with it.

Air. MUNSIE Clarnns) [5.0): 1 inteon)to oppose thle motion.

The Premier: fI thought you would.Mr. MUINSIE: I have every reason to op.

pose it. It is no use reiterating what the twolion, mnembers who have preceded me have saul,but there is no doubt about it that the privatemembers' business which is on the NoticePaper is of more importance than that of theGovernment. What will be the use of dis-cussing private members' business in thisHouse if the present motion is carried? ThePremier gave us to understand that he wasdesirous of closing the session at the end ofnext month. That will mean that privatemembers will have three dlays at the v-cry inoitin' which to discuss their business.

The Premier: Four days.Mr. M1UNSIE: If the motion is carried they

will have to-morrow and two other Wednes-days. Then the session will be closed.

Mr. O'Loghlen: There will be only twodlays altogether.

Mr. -MUNSIE: I want to see Parliamentsit for some time in December, if only to gis-cuss the result of the resolution which wascarried the other evening, the resolution deal-ing with tributing. Hon. members were givento understand that a Royal Commission wrouldbe appointed, and if it is intendled to close thebessioli at the end of next month, how can thereport of that Committee be considered beforelegislation dealing with the matter is passed?

The Minister for Mines: The legislation willbe dlown in a couple of days.

31r. M.%UNSIE: But the Cornmission 'a reportwill not be av ailable by then. There is a Do-tice of motion standing on the Notice Paperin my name that I desire to have furtherdiscussed. 'A deputation waited on thePreuicr a few days ago in connection withthe same subject and I desire to see theGovernment do something in connectionwith that matter.

Mr. Hfudson: 'What motion is that?Mr. 'MUNSIE: The motion dealing with

w-orkers' compensation. if the Governmentcannuot give us everything that is asked inthe motion, they should bring down a mea.-sure, giving one or two things.

MNr. SPEAKER: I cannot allow the hon.ammber to continue to digress.

Mr, MUfTNSIE: I an) sorry I am digress-ing but it was my desire to emphasise thepoint in connection with workers' compensa-tion, hecanse it is a miatter of such import-ance not only to the workers but to the or-ganiisations and the insurance companies, andin fact everybody in the State. ILf themotion before the House at the present timeis carried, not only will that motion of minenot he discussed, but nothing more 'will bedone ini coinnection with the matter. Morethan half of the business set down againstthe ramnes of private mnembers will be is-

charged at the end of the session. The for-erment, fronm thme very beginning of the ses-sion, have shown no genuine desire to gettheir own business through-

lion. P. Collier: They have not any.11r, MUN\SIE: Then the very little that

,thmey have. They have not even shown a de-sire to get through the Estimates. I intendto oppose thle miotion.

Mr. A.NGELO (Gascoyne) [5.5) Accord-ihig to the Sktanding Orders, p~rivate membersare only entitled to two hours in which totransact their business on one dlay of eachweek. If it is the will of thle House at 7.45o'clock, the discussion of the business ofprivate nienmbers munst cease.

The Minister for 'Mines: After the teaadjournment you can go onl with the ordersof the 'lay which inay include private meni-hers' business.

.3ir. ANGOELO: It is not asking too muchthat private nmemubers should continue to havetwo hours onl omme day of each week. I wouldalso point out to tme Premier that nightafter night dluring the last few weeks theHouse has adjourned at 1) o'clock.

The Premier: 'No, never.Mfr. ANGELO: Well, thme sittings have

terminated before 10 a 'clock on many occa-sions. I intend to oppose thle motion, be-cause I consider private mnembers shouldhave, at any rate, a couple of hours on onenight each week in which to discuss theirbusiness. If it is found that private busi-ness is not of very great importance, andthat it is desired to go on with Governmentbusiness, then the House can close down at8 o'clock oi whatever private umember 's- mait-ter is then under consideration.

Hou. T. XWALbKER (Kanowna) [5.7]: Ttwould be a great milstake at this early stageof thle session to cut out private members'night. No one on the Treasury bench candeny that the business up to dlate introduced]by private inenibers is of more importance sofar as the general public are concerned thanthe business introduced by the Government.Of course the Estimates are a formal matterand must be discussed; they are incidentalto every Session andI to every Parliament.The new measures, however, are miot of gen-eral public importance and yet we are togive the whole of our tinie to them. Thereis an Architects' Bill which, in effect, is aprivate 'Bill. It deals only with a small see-tion of tile Community.

Hlon. P. C'ollier. Brought forward ait therequest of a few private members.

Hon. T. WALKER:. Undoubtedly, to giveclass privileges to a few in thme community.

'Mr. Pickering: The samte privileges asy-ou have.

Hon. TF. WALKER: Then there is thleDentists' Bill.

Mr. Pickering: What about that for as.-ction of the coammunity.!

11r. SPEAKER: Order!1

1070

[19 OCTOBERs, 1q20.] 17

Hall. T. WALKER: We hav-e evidence inthis building itself as to hlow architects areprotected.

Mlr. SPEAKER:- F cannot allow the hl.mnember to proceed onl those lines.

ion. T. WALKER. I uni allowed toall'swer interjeetions.

Mr. SPEAKER: ItitcrJeetions are ois-orderilv.

Hon . T. W~ALKER: Thle interjectiondlealt with the Bill to which I was referring.

Mr. SPEAKER: That Bill is not underdiscussion.

lHon. T. WALKER: I was disenssing therelative importance of the Architects Billand was replying to the hon. member'a. in-terjection.

Mr. SPEAKER: Interjections are qis-orderly.

lion. T. WALKER: But if made theymust lie answered. We cannot allow interie-tions to score and not reply to them. Thesane thing mnay be said of the DentistsBill. I ant iii favour of a measure of thatkind, but it is really a private Bill fatheredby the Government. Bills of this descrip-tion have always been coiisidered as sub-ordinate measures which could he relegatedto the waste-paper basket if there were notadlequate time ilk which to consider them.Thley shouid never displace important publicbusiness introducerl by private members. Itis significant that every measure that hasbeen. introduced by members onl this side ofthe House, as well as the other side, i. theircapacity of private members, has been ofunquestionable public interest and import-mice. Not one hans beeu frivolous or merelyacademic. In every instance there has beensome State purpose or Commonwealth pur-pose to serve. You, Mr. Speaker, have hadlong experience in this Chamber; yon haveseen newcomers take their places.

The Minister for M iines: Why appeal tothev Speaker; he has not a vote?

Honl. T. WALKER: His wisdom andsagacity in this respect are worth appeal-ing to. I venture to say that you, 'Mr.Speaker, in all Your experience have neverseen such a bald programme ais that pre-sented by the Government during the pre-sent session.

Mr. 0 'Loghlen: Would he not speak elo-quently onl the matter if he were down here?

Ion. T. WALKER: If youn, Sir, were onlthe floor of the House, and were in anythinglike voiir old form, you would make thesezrafters-even though they be made of con-crete-rattle w-ith your eloquence and thesonorousness of your voice. Onl the NoticePaper at the present time there is nothingthat we can hold over.

Thle -Minister for 'Mines: It is wondlerfulhow eloquent you can be on nothing. Yonsay; there is nothing on the business paper.

Ha-to. T. WALKER: What we ha-ve had todebate has been dlebated in the form of aprotest on account of the paucity of thematter and the weakness of intention andcreation on the part of the Government. It

requires to lie inatle known hlow futile, howniortive the Uovernment lhave been in alt theirlegislative attempts this session. The pub-lic should know of it. There has not beenany factious Opposition to Government men-

Hon. W. C. Angwin: There has not beenany for four years.

lan. Tr. WALKER: They have been givena free hand.

H-on. W. C. Angwiui: Andl have made amness of it.

Honl. T. WALKER: And they are dyingaL natural death so far as creative energy isConcerned.

The Premier: Whlen you ask that weshould adjourn at 11 o'clock I will keel)tile House going until 1 ao'deock.

Hon. W, C2. Augwin: You will have a jobto keep) the House together.

Hon. T. %VALKiFiR:- There should besomething worthi discussing, something ofimplortance to the eomimunity, while oulrvital energies are not lacking, and then weshould go to our natural rest to be fit foruork next dlay, after having sat here until11 o'clock. That is quite long enough. Itis not the hour of closing, but it is the sub-mission to uts of frivolous matters, uponwhich frequently more time is spent thanonl really important matters. We have al-ready a sufficiency of important matters onthe Notice Paper, and we cannot possibly(leal with then. if one private members'day is cut ou1t every fortnight. The privatemembers constitute the Government; theyreally are doing that which is for the goodgovernment of the country, whilst all thatfeature is being neglected by the Govern-mnent rlhcimselves. When this Pnarliacnentwas first constituted, it was constituted onl-what was termied a national basis, with theidea that there should be no parties, thatall responsibility of governuient was castto the four winds, and that there was noset policy for the Administration to follow.It was to be go-is-you-pleakse, and nothinigwas to affect anybody's seat or anybo-dy'sposition in offie. That was the attitude ofthe 'Nationalists. There is no sense of res-ponsibility anywhere among the Govern-mnent. The object of this mootion is not toaccomnplish aaitthing good, but simply toenable the Government to get away fromParliamenlt, to get into recess, to get out ofthe grip of thu people.

Mr. O'Laghlen: So that they can attendto administration.

ll. T. WALKER: Of course. The pre-sent CGovernmeut have had a longer recessthan any other Government have had, andyet they' want more recess. This is the Gov-ernmnent of recessges, of deep and hollow re-cc-sas. I oppose the motion.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL (Hon. T. P,Drapier-West Perth) r511: We have beendiscussing for about 45 minutes what isusqually regarded as a formal motion.

1071

2072 ASSEMIBLY.]

lion. WI. C, Angnvin: Not at this stageof the session.

Mr. 0 'Loghien: It has been discussed in'eryyear when it has been introduced. 'The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The motionhas beenr opposed by members who on con-scientious grounds always oppose tile Uov-ernnient, and fronm whomn we cannot expetanything else. Then there have beent speecheiput forward by miembers on this side of theHouse who want anl excuse for opposing theU overnment.

lion. T. Walker: That is imputing motives.The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The excuse

put forward is that there is very little busi-ness on the Notice P'aper. But do lion. nmciii-hers really imagine that what is onl the -NoticePaper to-day, represents all that is going tobe put on the Notice P~aper! There is nota single member of this House who supposesthat.

HuLLn P. Collier: All important Bills oughtto be down by now.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The Pre-mier has mentioned several new Bills.

lion. P. Collier: Yes, and lie is going toclose next month.

Thle ATTORUNEY GENERAL: The Pre-nier has mentioned several Bills which hiehopes Parliament ivil1 pass.

Mr. 0 'Loighlea: Next session.lion. P. Collier: The Premier intends to

close next month.The Premier: I hope to.The ATTORNEY GENERAL: There is

not the slightest possible chance of closingat the end of next month.

lion. P. Collier: Of course, that alters theposition.

Thle ATTORNEY GENERAL: There isany amount of legislation on the NoticePaper now, and taking into consideration thelegislation that is to come from another placeand the legislation that will shortly be intro-duced, the House will be kept going fully upto Christmas in the ordinary course of events.Besides there aire complaints every sessionfrom another place that the Bills passed by'this House get there only during the lastfew minutes of the session.

Hton. P. Collier: It will be the same thissession,

The ATTORNEY GENER4&L: Not at all.And -yet the time of this House is to beoccupied one day every fortnight by privatemembers' business. There are many mattersrelative to private members' business whichcan be discussed when the important Billshave gone up to another place. Certainlythe matters which private members bringforward do not require deliberation in anyHouse but this. In the circumstances theopposition to the motion is nothing morean excuse put forward by one or two mem-members for voting against the Government.

H4oe. W. C. ANGWIN (North-East Fre-mantle) [5.21]: 1 am surprised at the Attor-ney General's remarks. Of course we hnowthose remarkkr cannot apply to members sit-

ting Onl tils side of the House. Therefore,theys Iost apply to sonic hon. memblers sit-ting~ onl the Cio~erninint side. The AttorneyGeneral snggests that those mnembers want toshow their spite against the Government byVoting againlst this motion. For iiy part, 1.cannot hold that those members are showingspite in emdeasvonring to retain privnt- memi-betks' da.y a little while longer. Thel AttorneyGecneral hams pout up the argument that pirivateImmblers' motions can bie discussed aiter wehave disposedl of the important BilIls; thatis to says, during time timec the Legislative('011n-0l is dealing wvith those Bills. limt lhasthlat ever bevin the praetie? Van any lion.meml~er ilan has haeeii here for years recallprivate ineambers ' business being dealt withait the i-lose ot the session There is nochance of it whatever. Before the most iin-portamt Bill have been dealt with ink thisC'hamnber, all the other business will havebeeit struck off the Notice Paiper, mnore es-Iecialls with a view to letting nieiniers gener-ally know what business. there is to Icv dealtwih. That Aimas dune last session, and it hasbeen done every session during th! Ili yearsI have been a member of this Hlouse. Iagree that there are some important Billsyet to he bronght down. In every StateParliament hot this there has bcen a wheatmarketing Bill. 'We have not yet seen anly-tiing of that measure. Such a Bill will takesome timne to deal with in this Chamber. Andthere arc other important ameasures to bebrought down. All those measures shouldhare been here at the beginning of thme sea-sioni instead of being left to the end. I failto see that the important motions now onlthe 'Notice Paper should be set aside simplybecause the Government have neglected theirduty and failed to introduce their most im-portant Bills at the commencement of thmesession. I hope lion. miemtbers. will for a littlewhile longer retain prirate members' dlayonce a week.

The PREMIER (Hon. J1. Mitchiell-'Nor-tham-in reply) [5.26]: The Governmentwill give hon. members an opportunity ofdiscussing every important motion on theNotice Paper, unless bon. members themselvesdeprive one another of that right. Everynotice of motion now on the Notice Paper,with the exception of two, has already beenadvanced a stage. Every one of them hasalready been discussed.

Mfr. O'Loghlen: You know the fate ofprivate members' motions every session.

The PREMIER: But with the exceptionof two they have all been discussed in thepresent instance. The two exceptions arenotices of motion by the member for Kan-owna, (Hon. T. Walker) and by the memberfor Willam-Narrogin (Mr. Johnston). Allthe other motions, I should think, can be dis-posed of in one sitting.

Mr. Munsie:- What about the Bill intro-duced by the leader of the Oppositioni Camthat be disposed of in one sitting!

1072

LID OCTOERa, 19m0.1

The PREMIER: The leader of the Opposi-tion will have an opportunity of discussingtho Bill to-morrow.

Mr. 0 'Loghten: There. are three othermotions to go on the Notice Paper.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order!The PREMIER: We hare been sitting

now for 11 weeks. If we sit to the end ofNovember there are still six weeks to go; andif we sit into December, as I suppose weshall, there is even a longer period ahead.I have no desire to deprive lion. members ofthe opportunity of discussing anything ofimportance to the State. Notices of severalBills were given to-day, and various othermeasures are to come down-one or two ofthem of importance to the farmers. Thereis, for instance, a Bill to amend the LandAct. There is also n wheat marketing Bill,as mentioned by the member for North-EastFremantlc (Hon. W. C. Angwin). Prob-ably notice of that measure will be given to-morrow. We have also the Annual Estimatesto discuss, and thereafter the Loan Esti-mates. I do not quite appreciate the import-ance of legislating in the same way as theleader of the Opposition and the member forKanown appreciate it, but I say that beforewe close this session we shall have passedmany useful measures, I may also mentionthat a Bill to amend the Worker' Compensa-tion Act is to be brought down. The inemn-her for Gascoyne (%fr. Angelo) has told theHouse that we adjourn constantly before

.9 o'clock.L1r, MNunsie: The lion, member did not

say that. He said thme House had repeatedlyadjourned before 97 o'clock.

The PREMIER. The lion. memiber said''night after uight."~ I think the lhon. xein-her is generally here wheni the House ad-journs; Otherwise I should have said that hemust be in the habit of leaving before theHouse rises. As a fact, we have generallysat till abiout 11 o'clock. Of course, we cansit later if lion. members d&sire it. I hopethe Houise will realise it is important thatthe (lovernmnent Bils should pass this Houseand that wre should get on with tlme bs-'less.

"Mr. 0 Loghlen- What about the bulkhandling Bill?

The PREMIEFR: It is not even draftedyet.

',%r. O'Loghlcn: Why is it not drafted?The PREMIER: The coumpany that deals

with the erection of grain elevators mustfirst supply the information necess~ary for thedrafting of the Bill. I under.-tnnd, too, frontthme Chmairmuan of the Wheat Board that it is.not rery imiportant that-tbe niensure shouldgo ibrouali this Sessiun. I hople the Housewill agree to the motion %thich T hare mo'ved.INotith-tanding thme remanrks of hon. membersopposite, f venmture to say that while there isa great deal of the utmiost imnportance inthe Covernment business, ninny of the mat-ters brnuizht forward by private membevrF,lmavina already been discussed to sonic ex-

tent, can be disposed of in a very fewminutes.

Mr. 0 Loghlen: Some motions moved byprivate members will, if carried, be followedby Government action.

Thme PREMI[ER: I hope so.Mr. 0 Loghlen: But not this year.Question put and a division taken with the

following result:-Ayes .- - 24Noes . . . 1

Mfajority for

Mr. BrounMr. BrownMr. DaviesMr. DraperMr. DurackMr, GeorgeMr. Griffiths.Mr. HarrisonMr. HickmottMr. HudsonSir H. B. Let royM r. MaleyMr. Mitchell

Mr. AnigeloMr. AngwinMr. CollierMr. FoleyMr. jonesMr. LanmbertMr. Lutey

AYE~S

NOES

II.

Mr-. MuilanyM r. NaimnMr, PickeringMr. PlesseMr. PlikingtonMr, RobinsonMr. ScaddanMr. SmithMr. TeesdaleMr. VeryariMr. Hardwick

(Toiler.)

Mr.Mr.Mr.Mr,Mr.Mr.

MunrieRock.UnderwoodWalkerWillcockO'Loghiemi

(Teller.)Question thus passed.

BEILL-NDUSTRIAL ARBIETRATIONACT AMENDMfENT.

'Message from the Governor received andread recommending the Bill.

DILL-STALLIONS REGISTEATTON.Received front the Council and read a first

time.

BII.L-PRVFNTLQX OF CRUELTY TOANIMALS.

Reeived from the Council and, on motionb' r. Smith, read a first time.

BILL-PUBLIC SERVICE APPEALBOARD.

Read a third time and transmitted to theCouncil.

BILL-LUN-ACY ACT AM\ENDM\ENT.

Second Reading.

Debate resumned from 14thk October.

Hon. P. COLLIER (Boulder) (5.371: 1hope T shall not be accused by the AttorneyGeneral of merely fulfilling the fmmetions of

3074 ASSEMBLY.]

anIl Opposition when T say T am going to op-loose the Bill. I had hoped that, as the re-sult of the very prolonged discussion whichtook place in thec House last session in re-gard to the control and administration ofthe Hospital for the Insane at Claremont, andalso as the result of the exhaustive inquiryheld by the select committee, and tine recrowl-mendations wade by that body, the Ministerwould have brought down, this session,' sonic-thiag of a practical and useful nature. I antsurprised andti lsappointed in that the Billnow before us will not improve matters inany degree whatever.

'[he Colonial Secretary: Mr!T. ?NonI. P. COLLIER: Becausei it does not

provide for any effective alteration f roni tileconidition of things disclosed by thle inlvesti-gations of thle select commisittee. Althouighthe Bill consists of 21 clauses, it may he saidthat 19 of them, are merely of a formnal orcousequential, character. Thle only alterationwhich tile Bill seeks to make in the existinglaw is that the bodyv now known as thleofficial visitors will iii future be described asthe hoard of visitors. 'Moreover, it will con-sist of five, inistead of three memnbers as atpresent, Again, the board shall visit once amouth instead of once in every three months,as prescribed in the existing Act.

Lion. WV. C'. Angwin: It should have beena board of control.

lion. P. COLLIER: The fauilt 1 have toflid with the board of visitors is that it isto have isufficient power. Thle powers it isto have ore no greater than those enijoyed bythe official visitors tn-day, except that themajority of the hoard wihll e entitled to re-lease any inmiate of an institution. That isthis only additional power the hoard willb a Ve.

The Colonial Secretary: 'No.Mr. T'ilkington: pretty important

Piower.Hon. P. CO01LLIER: It is certainly al hnt-

vortant alteration that in futuire te boardwill have pouwer to release any inmate of aininstitution iniatead of, as at present, thatpower reposing solely in the h-ands of theInspector General of the Insanle. But thepower is to lie heodged around ill this. respect,that thle board is to be composed of twomedical mcii, one lawyer, amd two laymen,of whoml one shall be aI womian. It is alsopiovided that, included in thle majority ofthle hoard which mnight decide to release any-inmate, there miust always he onle of thlemedical mnmhers of the hoard. However, Ido not know that that is of any' importance.It seems to inc that if in the past, becauseof the opposit ion or attitud-e of anyv coictroll-lag med-iical offier, there harve beeni groundsfor complait Is to thle righits of inmnates tohe released, tht systeml is only 'lvittressedand strengthencd by the proision mow laiddown. If tlhe 'Minister makes; provision forthe release of iinnaztcs by means other thanthat of thle p)ermission of the Inspector Gen-eral, it must be admittedl that the very mak-ing of t-hat provisioni i-; a recognition of th(-

fart that thle systeml Wichi has obtained illthe poast has not been satisfactory.

The- Colonial Serretary It is thle selert(colmittee's re'oninieudation.

Hon,. P. COLLiFR: I take it the Mini-ister wvould not adopt the reeoinnendatroneven Of thle selCt committee of this Houseunless hie is satisfied that it will mean anl irn-provent Onl the existing Act.

The Colonial Secretary: It und1)(oubtedly is.lion, 1, (OJLICER : No Cioverninent would

he0 justified inl adopting a9 proposal inerelybpecause it hand been a recommnedation of aselect committee, unless they did so after duocoinsiderationi and inquiry, and were satis-fiedl that the alteration w-as necessaLry andtlhat it would heulefieiallv affect existing conl-'1 tious. I think I am justified, unless theMinister w-ill admit a w,,akness !in dealingwith the Bill, in assulming that lie in tiurn issatisfied that an olteration is necessary. Ifin the loast it has been difficult or inipossiblefor patients to get past two medlical officers,namely the Inspector General of the Insaneand the Superintendent of the Instituttion, Iaml of opinion that, even though there is tohe a hoard comiposed as it wvill be uinder theBill of these two officers and one other medi-cal nun, it will mean that any unfortunateinmate will then have to surmount the ob-lections of three medical officers insteacl ofonly two. That, to my mind, will be theeffect of the alteration. Perhaps the Mmi-ister will. be able- to tell us whether thehoards,) which control similar institutions in(rent Britain, are composed entirely of lay-men or whether there is a simjilar provisionto that contained in the Bill.

The Colonial Secretary: The conditionsare entirely different there. The member for-Northi-East Freniantle canl tell you that.

Hon. W. C. Angn-in: They have Commis-sioners there.

The Colonial Sec-retary- Twenty CoupIhissiOn CI~s.

Ho,,. W. C. Ang-win: At £1,300 a year.Honl, P. COLLIR: I ami sorry we have

not something like that here. While thleifLIie~tiun of releasing a.ii - inmate in the in-stitution is important, it is not everything.Alt-agh I believe that persons have beenhIilii in the in sti htioU ill thle past Who aughtto have been released, I am not prepared tovuv th:at thle wnmber would be very great.

The Premier: VouI will admnit that it isintportant.

FIon. 1'. t oLL. [II: It is important. Ikelieve that ini thle Past, if not now, persanshavi- been ldo within that institution whosh!ouldl have been giveni their liberty. It mayseemi rather egotistical if not presumptuous,for one to ,ay this against the opinion of thle,Inspector 0eneral1 of the Insane ari theSuaperintendent of thle Asl'ynin. I believe rcould show, if it were necessary and rele-v-ant to the dliscussion, that hr their actionsiii the vast these officers have admitted thatpeople have been held in the institution whoought to hate been releaser!

1074 /

[19 OCTOBR, 1920.] 17

. j.Davies: What would hie the objectot holding themy?

lon. P. COLI.LER; I do not know.lHon. T. Walker: There are wheels within

wheels.

[]lon, P. COLLIER: It is perhaps a psycho-logical problem. It is difficult for us tounderstand the object that persons may havein many things that they do from day today. Ti is a ',sycliological studly, well worthyof the honi. mnember 's consideration and at-tentio~n. There is sueta a thing as profes-sional di~nitv, not to say jealousy, and onceblaek is dieclared to have beens black, blackis going to rinlain black so far as somie menare concerned for ever and ever afterwards.Thu hons. nmemner mnay look up the file thatis now lying on the Table of the House, Tcould give instances showing that men havebeen held in the institution, who ought to havebeen released, and it is difficult inideed to finda motive for this. T could mention one ease,that of the man Cooledge, as shown on thefile. This man 's relatives reside in Victoria.The mother was informed last year that ifshe sent over the cost of the patient's trans-fer to Victoria, lie would be released. Shtesent over the necessary amount-I think itwaq £E40 in all-bnt no receipt was seat toher and no reply to her comununication. wasreceived by her, and she then wrote to meon the unatter. T found upon iinquiry thatCooledge was not sent over in compliancewith the request. The money was held here be-cause it was not then considered safe to sendhim. The man was said to be dangerous.The hon. member will see for himself thestatemnit onl the file. After ( had made in-quiries a report was called for, and the re-Port by Dr. Bentley, the superintendent of tilein'.titutioo, is on the file. The superintend-ent states that lie considered the manl wassuffering. from delusions and unfit to bereleased,'

Mr. Teesdiale: Perhaps in the interim thisdevelopment occurred.

Bon. P, COLLIER: No, for he was taken,into the institution snifering from delusions.H-e was held there for that reason. 'Not-withstanding the fact that lie was sufferingfrom delusions lie was allowed to leave theinstitution and make the trip to Victoria.

The Colonial Secretary: With attendants.

lion. 1'. COLLIER: With one attendant.,lion. W. C. Angin: One patient used to

go on the raee-course wvith himi and take partin the betting.

Hion, P. (ILLIEflI: Two or three weeksbe fore the man was released Dr. Bentleysaid hie was unufit to be at large and was snf-fering froni delusions. Subsequently I wasinformedI that the patient had left two orthree days Lefore by boat. I asked if he hadgone over by himself or whether he wasaccompanied by attendants. . Dr. lientlevreplied that he hadl gone with one attendan~taind hie added, 'IT woulld nt like to be the

[40]

attendant. - If a medical officer will re.lease anl inmiate and allow him to go to %Vic-toria and then say, "'I would not like to betMe attendant,'' it reveals a very peculiarstate of affairs.

Mr. Davies: He may have Meant hle wouldtalk his head off.

lon. P. C'OLLrER: Ire nsay have mneantanything.

The Colonial Secretary: He would be adanger to himself and not to the public.

lieu. P. COLLIER: It a inan is a dangerto himself there is just as mnuch reason whylie should not be released, as if he were audamger 'to thle public.

The Colonial Secretary: Ohl no!

Hon. P. COJLLIER: The life of the uan-fortuinate patient would nmot count.

The Colonial Secretary: ie would not livelong if lie was allowed to go without anattendant.

Hon. P. C'OLLIER: That does not count.The Colonial Secretary: It does count.IHon. P. COLLIER: That is an. important

alteration, but it is the only alteration pro-vided in the Bill. Is there any provision inthis umeasure to prevent in the future such:1 conlditiont of thinigs as was found to existin the institution last year? The report andrecommmendations of thle select committeedisclose a state of affairs discreditable tothis Parliamsent. This position of affairshaving been disclosed uder the nmagemientthat then obtained, what has the Ministerdone and what has lie provided in the Billto affect an alteration in thne control or nin-agement of the institution? Where does itprovide that these things may he avoided in.the future? There is nothing in the Billwhatever in this direction. Thne umam incharge of the institution, the Inspector Gen-eral, or the Superintendent, or whoever wasthere, was responsible for the condition- ofaffairs discovered by the select commuittee,and this person still remain iii control ofthle institution. He is not to be over-ruledin any way. There is no other body set upto control the institution. This board isnot set uip to have ammy cointrel ove rthe adninistration or mnanagement. o ftile asylum. The same methods are to becontinued in the future which led tothe results of the past. That is whereI complain that thle Bill is weak. I dionot wish to weary miembers by readingthe report if the select committee, but I thinkit would he well if they obtained a copy of it,and refreshed their memories onl the mnuypoints brought forward by the committee.They will find that, even with regard to thequestion of fire, the institution was in a dan-gerouis position. There were no alarmis. Thefood supply we find to have been, if not in-sufficient, at all events of insuifficient variety.The committee found that the food supplieswere not as they ought to have been.

'Mr. Teesdale. Not sufficienit in quantityll

10 7 5

1)76[ASSEMBSLY.]

lion. P. COLLIER: I1 will read the reporton this matter-

At the same time your committee is ofopinion that a greater variety of food might,with advantage be supplied to the patients.Bread and bntter, and bread and jam forbreaktast and tea every day in the year isnot tho best for the patients, and should bevaried. kM ore fruit should be used amid thecomnmittee recommend that all the pigsraised at the institution fari, amid not soldas stock to farmers, should be consunved atthe institution instead of being disposed offor outside consumption.

Thme committee found that bread and butter,and bread and jam, was the diet every day inthe year.

lion. W. C. Angwin: Twice a day.Non, P. COLLIER: Yes. I's the 'Minister

going to improve conditions of that kind?What power will this hoard have? Whbere isthe board given power to see that this doesnot happen in the future?

'Mr. Teesdale; The laymen and the womiennmembers of the hoard will Stick to it.

Rion. P. COLLIER: There is a hoard nowwith a woman on it.

Mr. Teesdale: It is a differently constitutedboard.

H-om. P. COLLIER: No, all these thingshave been going on all tile time, and grew uipunder sucll a board. I remember when theLabour Coverament were in office that we ap-pointed a womian. to the board as an official%isior.

Mr. Teesdale: But the lboarjl had no pow'er.Hlon. I'. COLLIER: And the board to be

composed under this Bill will have 110 power.That is the point. With regard to fire, theselect comm"ittee reported-

Whbile the regulations of the institutionprovide that the attendants shall take certainac(tion in case of tire, nothing whatever isdone in the way of fire drill and the appli-anices are in bad order. Your committee re-comnnind~s that early attention be given tothis iniportant provision in the regulations.

Whlat power will the board have to attend toa matter of this kind? If the Superintendentor management of the institution had allowedthis condition of affairs to exist and rwuas in the past, hlow is this board going to havepower to alter it for the future?

'.%1r. Teesdale: What Would the board'sduties consist of, if not to supervise the coi-fort and safety of the patients?

Won. P. COLLTER: That was suipposed toh(. the dtyv of the official visitors in the past.

'.\r. Teesdale: Does it not show that theya tre incompetent and that we wrant a change?

Holl. P. COLLIER: They have no power.All the visitors may do is set out in the Bill.They may go round and insphect the whole in-stitutiomi. They may speak to tile inmates andfind out their gemieral condition, and may en-ter uap all these tiings in a record book in thspinstitution.

Mr. Harrison: And make recommendations'

Ilon. P. COLLIER: NO recommendlations atall. They may cuter up the things as theyfind themt and report to the Minister.

'The Colonial Secretary: Would not the Mill-later take action?

lion. P. COLLIER: I do not know.Mr. .Jones: Did the Minister take action?The Colonial Secretary: Undoubtedly.Mr. Jones: No!lBon. P. COLLIER: Owing to the multi-

farious duties that the Minister is called uponto perform hie can only pay p~rfunctory at-tention to the numerous reports that come be-fore him from the different institutions underhis control. We want a board, or Commiission,which will have some power to alter the thingsthalt are wrong, and give the necessary in-structions to those who are administering theinlstitutionl.

Mr. Davies: You suggest a board of man-agement?

Hon. P. COLLIER: A board to control themanagement.

Mfr. Teesdale: Even if they clash with theSLuperintendent.

lion. P. COLLIER: One might as well saythat the control of the Perth Public Hospitalby a hoard clashes with its administration by-the officers.

M r. Teesdale: You admit that in his pro-vince the Inspector General mnust not be in-terfered with?

lHon. P. COLLIER: Of course, within hisprovince. There are innumerable duties re-quirig an officer's attention apart fromtthat requiring the exercise of his mnedicalkniowledge.

Homi. W. C. Aagwin: There are Savings ofthousands of pounds a year to be made.

11022. P. COLLIER- For thisR institution7ire are providing £E84,000 this -year. Thatis a very large sum from public fundls, andlyet the whole administration is in the handsof one inan. Members will realise that wemay have a manl in the muedical world, orin the various professional spheres, who mayhe a perfect genius in his particular line,but who may he a hopeless failure at abusiness such as the management of an in-stitution like that under discussion. Thereaire something like 1,100 inates there, andto manage suchL anl ilStitltionl With SO Manypatients of the type inevitable at such aplace, a iuan nust be more than a medicalnal; hie mnust be ahle to manage and con-trol this big business undlertaking, and nmust,in addition, have no smnall administrativevapacity. As T have said, these outstandingfentures liluit he possessed by~ the mian incharge quite apart from the question Ofemedical functions to he carried out at the,Hospital for the Insane. The repoirt of the

seetcoiniittee, has shown that the metholiof control has been deficient in the pas~t.When this House starts out to legislate illthe direction sugges4ted by the Bill, Weshloid set out to prevent these abuses andinsist that the, position shonld he sneh thatthey cannot exist in the future.

1076

[19 Ocronn, 1921 1077

The Colonial Secretary: The board will dothat.

Hon. P. COLLIER: That is a complacentway of treating this matter.

The Colonial Secretary: You want to takethe control of the institution out of thehands of the Gloveranent

Ilon. P. COLLIER: There is the brandof the rubber stamp, ''Do you,'O says theMinister, ''want to take the control out otthe hands of the Inapeetor General?'' Why,that is a tale that has been pumped intohim.

The Colonial Secretary: I said out of tlhehands of the Covergivnact.

Hion. P. COLLI ER: The Goicrorinent orenot the manag-ement. What ia the good oftalking like that? It is the Inspeetor Gen-eral who is in chanrge. That is the lte thatbas been pumped insidiously into the ears ofthe M1inister for ,,,onthis past.

Mr. Teesdale: Define the powers withinreasonable Limnits and I will support you.

Hon. P. COLLIER: I am pointing outthe defects of the Bill at the present stage.I did not frame the measure.

The Minister for Works: Point out thedefeets.

Hon. P. COLLIER: What else am Idoing? We nmust clear away the rubbishbefore we start to improve the Bill. As apractical man, the -Minister rmst know thatwe cannot start a work before clearingaway the d~bris.

Hoa. T. Walker: And then you must starton a solid foundation.

Hon. P. COLLIER: Look at 'the sectionas it stands in the Act. Section 95 reads-

The board of any institution or a ma-jority (which shall include a medicalpractitioner) of such board shatl, once atleast ia every month, and also at suchother times as the -Minister may direct.

Then follow the powers, and the member forRoebourne (Mr. Teesdale) should note thepowers which are specificially conferred onthe board.

''I(a) Visit such institution with or with-out any previous notice.''

T~here is a flaw in the first line. It says"'with or without notice.'' I do not seethat it is necessary, with a board of thisdescription, who inspect at least once amonthi, to give any notice.

Mr. Teesdale: It is optional.Ron. P. COLLIER: Yes, but it is a weak

point. The paragraph continues-and at such hours of the day or nightand for such length of time as they maythink fit; (b) Inspect every part of suchinstitution and every outhouse thereofwhether communicating therewith or de-tached therefrom; (c) See every patientconfined therein so as to give everyone,so far as possible, full opportunity of comn-plaint; (dt) Inspect and consider, so far asmay be deemed necessary, the orders, re-quests, and certificates relating topatients; (e) Make such inquiries, exam-

inations and inspections as are set forthiu Section 87 of this Act; (f) Enter in theInspector General's book a minute of thethen eondlition of the institution and suchother remarks as they may deena proper.Mr. Pickering: Read Subsection 8 now.Ion. P. COLLIER :No, I will finish the,

whole section as I am proceeding. Subsec-tion 2 says-

After every visit the board shall trans-halt to the 2tinister a statement of thenunaber of patients admitted or is-acharged since the date of the last visita-tie,., together with a copy of the entrymadec hy then, in the Inspector General'sbook, and any other information theymay econsider necessary.Air. Pickering:- Now tlhis is the Iportion 1

referred to.lon. P. COLLIER: Subsection 3 reads-

A board may at any tame make asl>&cjai investigation of any 'use, andvisit and report to the Minister upon themental and bodily condition and treat-mnent of any lunatic or alleged lanotin inan 'y such institution as aforesaid.

That has nothing to do with the matter Iam dealing with. That subsection gives, theboard power to investigate any particularease. I ain talking about the generalpowers of the hoard. After an inspection,after interviewing everybody and inquiringinto the working of the whole of the irastitu-tion, the board goes to the Inspector Gen-eral's offie and enters up a minute uts tothe general conditions they find. That isall. Where have they any power to alteranything the members find wrong at the in-stitution? That is the point. Take thisposition: suppose they make their investi-gation and find that the fire alarms are de-fective-

Mr. Davies: You mean that they can onlymakil a recommendationl

Hon. P. COLLIER: No, not even a re-commendation. They just enter up whatthey find. Suppose after their inspection theyfind, as the select committee found when theyreported as follows:-

The wards are supposed to have alarms inase assistance is required by attendants atnight, bot we find that very little attentionis given to -the alarms. All the attendantsshould have perfect knowledge of the alarmsin each w-ard. Your committee, from, its in-spection, is of the opinion that the alarmsshould ho put in proper order. Each at-tendant's room should be connected endthe attendant should be instructed a" tothe use of the alarm. This should alsoapply to the Perth Public Hospital mentalward.

The alarms mentioned here, of course, refer toall alarms, not only to fire alarms. However,suppose this board,' on one of its periodicalvisits, finds something wrong. What powerhave they to alter it? Where is there any pro-vision in the Bill to enable the board to effecta remedy? That is the whole weakness of the

1078 [ASSEMBLY.]

proposal. 'Ilucre is nothing in the Bill, exceptpower to release inmates. The Inspector Gen-eral ay take notice of what is entered in thebook, or lie miay not. Apparently, if the offi-emal visitor. fin the past hadl been doing theirduty, they must have entered up the book f rontime to time.

Angwin: They sent in a report once in threemonths.

[Ion. TI. Walker: They do it monthly now.lion. P. C;OLLIPR: 'Where are the results,

spread over a matter of years past? We shouldat least ensure against aimy sitch condition ofthings happening again, but, as the Ministersays, the Inspector General hads taken care ofthat. The Inspector General wants to have thewhole of the powers which he nowv possesses fithis new measure.

Rion. T. Walker: They have taken out theregulations and put then; in the Bill.

Bo,,. P. COLLIER: Yes, that is the posi-tion and they are giving statutory powers nowfor what was forimerly laid down in regula-tions. For instance, the I nspector Generalvrill have powie to title attendants up to £1without thme right of appecal.

The Colonial Secretary: Hec has that rightby regulation.

lion. P. COLLIER: Yes, but by puttingthese regulations in the Bill any successiveGovernmient which might desire to do awaywith that power could] not do so except bybringing forward anl aimendinig Bill.

The Colonial Secretary: You could ask Par.liamnent to pass that.

lon. 11. COLLIER: The Minister shouldknow that we strengthen the pioltver of theInstpector G enieral by making them statutory,instead of merely conferring poe bt'y regnila-tion, which could be alteredl by any Caevern-ment. I owems under regulations do not havethe force of powters conferred by Act of Par-lianient.

The Coloni Secretary: It is left to iParlia-mniut to itao alterationg, not to the Govern-tent. It is (lone for that purpose.

Ito,,. 11. COLL~I ER: Tihen, it is to take allayP ower front thme I ,speetor I eneral ? Well, thelimipector (lec l slipped a little there. I noa,ire that every line a ndl everyr word of the Bill

,,,eets with the appjriival of thle I nspector Gl-Pral, and if lie allowved this Ito go throughwith the intention of depriving hi mself oft in Wt vrs thIiat lie 'niw , assesses, the MNi,,ister mu tst have got hll,, ii, a tre k lumlent.Front it,' reading of the Bill, lie hals -set nutflum first tim list to see that the Powers hieniow ciii ty shalnl niot Ilw cur tailed.

The- Coloinia Isectret:,ry : Th ic,- Ispetor Gen-.(il dlid not framei the Bill.

lHon. P'. COIiER: No, hut lie ad vised theIoi,. nmembel r.

The, Colonial Set-retairy : NO, lie did not.Ht,. P. (C)LLIEli: Wevll, he gnve the hon.

,',c-ndhr his views.The~ Colonial Secretary.: No\, he lid not.h]felt. P. COLLIER: The 'Minlister canot

till inc that the Inspector General didi nothaive an opportunity of expressinig his opinion

oil the various clauses of the Bill. if thteMinister had been left to himoself, with theassistance of others ill his department, we'u ould probably have had a better Bill. Tirevery fact that7 we have a useless Bill beforeuts is evidence to i of the hand of the In-slertor General right through. Surely theMinister recogises that, after thre disclosuresmade last year by the select committee, theHouse expcrted front him, a Bill which wouldIprevent the possibility of such a conditionof affairs occurring in the future.

Thte Colonial Secretary: The Bill will dothat.

Bion. P. COLE]IER: I am sorry that theMinister, iii introducing the Bill, did not ex-plain to uts hnow it will do so. I should liketo know what particular clause is going toachieve the purpose the Minister- claims for it.I am not able to find it.

ll. W. C. Angwin: The Bill is no betterthtan the conditions that obtain now.

.Nfiiy 8flspenldd fromn 6.1. to, 7.0 p.m.

Mr. SPEAKER: The 1awenber for Bouldermav proceed.

Ho,,. P. COLLIER: I would pirefeCr to havea quoi-uni present.

[Bells rung a,,d quorum, formed.]

lion. P. COlLfLER: I rather think there,,isf be sonmeth~ing in the contention of thePremier that we should close down by theend of 'November. There seemns to he some-thing of a feeling of wearinless comning overmnembhers of the House, or it may be thatsoime nme,,,ers 11o muot regarid the question ofluinacy reform as of very munch implortance.Thme Colonial Secretary stated that there ispower in the Bill to rectify or remedy tiecionditions which were found by the selectcommittee to exist at the Hospital for thmeInsane. I would very muceh like the Attorney'(:enlral to point out wherein that Powerlies in the Bill. The whole defect of thneBill lie., iii the fact that it contains no piro-vision which will compel renmediad mecasuresto hie taken unless the Inspector General oftlhe Insane chooses to take thiemi. That is thetuct in a nutshell.

lon. TI. Walker: It intensifies his power.The Premier: No; the bnard will ha'e

[Ion, T. Walk-: It will givi' the plowers ofthe Inspector General statutory definition in]

oill solidify them.Hion. P. COLLIER: Thre very title N i-

fiient-'A board of viitrs'" The ColonialSecretary sta ted that lie has given, thishoard Ponwer tri releaqe pntimits; because thatwa reconmmended by the ,elect committee;hOut be has not adopted the recoiniendationsof the selert commuittee mith regard to theliotF5 that the hoard oif -o,,missiomerssh~ould possess. The select committee reeniv-men-ded ini their final paragralph that leui'-lationi be introduced in the direction of alpointing au hoard Of comamissioners who womuld

1 19 OCTOBER, 1920.1 1179

""love full control of all mental defectivesin Western Australia.

Hon. T. Walker: That is the point.Hon. P. COLLIER: And in response to

that recommendation the Colonial Secretaryprovides not a board of control, but a hoardof advice, a board of observation, merely topiass through the institution and record theirimpressions as to how they found things.Surely the Colonial Secretary will recognisetile wide distinction between a board of ad-v'ice and a board of control. There is allthe difference in the world. The board ofadvice which the Bill provides for wrouldleave things nt thle institution exactly asthey are at present, andl exactly as they havebeen unless the powers that be-the Inspec-tor General-chooses to alter them,. A boardof control, on the other hand, is quite a dif-ferent thing. A board of control would[ giveinstructions to the Inspector ('eneral to alterthings which weire found to be unsuitable.They would not be content to merely recordinl the minute book in the Inspector General soffice their impressions, hut they would giveinstructions, and [ say rightly so too, [lotinstructions where medical knowledge was i-quiredl, but instructions with regard to thehundred anl one things which affect the well-being of the inmaites of the institution andupon01 which a layman is qualified to expressanl opinion. flT' insufficiency of the nuberof attendants would be a niatter for a boardof control composed of laymen to form a.judgment upon, and not merely to recordtheir opinion, bilt to give instructions to theadministration. Sinnilarirv with a hundred,and one other thugs. Let me refer againto the recomncdations of the select coil.iittet'

We flesirr' to draw special attention tothe evidence of Dr. Birmingham, one of theofficial visitors. Wheni visfiting Americaand Europe lie made s9pecial inquiries, atthe request of the Government, regardlinghospitals for the insane, and onl his returnfurnished ai report. LDr. Birmtinghanm be-lieves that greater freedomn in the grounda sof the institution should be given topatients, instead of keeping them confinedto small airing courts. While he recog-nises the difficulty wh~ich exists at (Clare-mont 1,y reason of the system of confine-alert having been in vogue so long, hepoints out that there are many patients nowIli the institution to whom more libertyificht hie given. All new patients, too,

should he allowed free use of the grounds,and to quote his words, ''the institutionshould hi looked onl as a hospital, not ap ri soin.'Hon. T. Walker: Hear, hear! That is the

whole point.lionl. 1'. (OLLI ER: Thle report continue,-When piatienits realise this there will bevery few escapes and greater henefit willresult to the paticnts Your committee isof thle Opinion that, with the erection of anew building, this sy" stem of greater free-doam to patients should be carried out.

Tfhis is a matter upon which amy lisitingb~oardl is just as well qualified to form anopinlion as is any medical officer in. eharge,but I would ask, has tile Inspector Generalof the insane carried out that recomnmendla-tion, I ani informed that only last weekthe ispector (leneral, or somae officer underhint, ordered the attendants to keep) thepatients off the gmrass. IVe have heard ofthat phrase before. There is no power conl-tamned in this Bill to compel the doctor togive effect to a decision of that kind. Allthe boarid need do is to record their iinpres-sions, aind Ilr. .Audeison, or anyone else vouldsnup is fingers at their recommendations andiignore tlmi. rhis is not what we want. Weweont a board of cohmmissioners to give in-stromtiumns that effect shall be given to suchlrecommendations, and that such reeolnnieu-dations shomld not rema in a dlead letter inthe office at the whim or will of thle fuspee-tor General. Tile report continues-

Many complaints have been~ made thatthere are insufficient attendants onl dutyat imit, particularly in the hospital orNo. 3 ward. The evidence states thatpatients have to be put under restraint,and that this would not be necessary ifthere wrme more attendants on fiuty.Whilst this is a professional question, itappears to Your committee that such isthe ease. The evidence discloses that Sergt.O 'Meara, V.0., is kept under restraint ina strait-jacket for approxinmately 141f. outof the 24 huours every dlay. He is pot inthe strait-jacket each evening between S.3)and 9 o'clock, when one of the attendantsgoes off duty, and is not released from the.restraint until about 11 o'clock next morn-ing- This patient is in the same ward he-tween the hours of 4 1 ,.r. fand .9.30 p..without being uinder restraint, but 'thereare additional attendants then onl duty.Your conmmittee is of opinion tha t thereshould be an additional attendant Ii thehospital ward at night, and that all nightattendants should he undler a charge ait-tentlant who should hie onl duty.

Suppose the hoard of adlvice provided forin the Bill were to make a Similar ohbsprvn-tion and( enter it nup in the miinute baonki,, tile insipactor Gleneral's office, where isthere any power to comlpel the ins9pe-tor 4;hncraml to give effect to it! liecould pl ease himnself; lie coal(] all ow things togo mmi i-i future as thmey have doae in thepast., That is the "hole dlefect of tile Bill.1 couull qjuote other paragraphs in the reporto.f tht selec-t committee wvhiecu would iese,a condition of things aum edraid e iii til e x-tremt'; hut for which no renuedv is providedI

in this Bill. That is the %lcole weakness ofthis Bill. Noa renmedy whatever is provided.Time Imispeetor General is still king of thle%%hot, plauce. 11 e is still to be permnittedI togo onl in future as lie has done in the past.The comumittee further reported-

or commnittee is of opinion that suffi-denat time is not given by the doctors to

1080 [ASSEMBLY.)

the patients. Too much of their time istaken up by routine work. There are ap-proximately 760 male patients, and thetimes given to them by the medical officeris, on an average, fronm one and a half totwo hours each day; while in the femaledivision there are 371 patieiits and ap-proximately the same time is given totheui, though the doctors are at the officeto be called if their services are required.

'This is a niatter of which the doctors shouldmot he allowed to be the judges. If theyneglect to give sufficient attention to theirpatients, if they fail to give sufficient timeto the patients, who is to conipel them todo it? There is no authority or power inthis Bill to say that the doctors shall becompelled to give better attention to the in-mates of the institution. Without labouringthe question any further, I say the Hill isworthless.

Mr. Davies: Did you say the position ofthe board of visitors would be suitable to aboard of ianagenment?

Honl. P. COLLIER: I object first of allto the title. I say again that the InspectorGeneral bag approved of this Bill. Ile ha,not even allowed anything to creep into thetitle which would seemn to take away- thepower hie posae at the ptresent time. TheBill provides for a board of advi-e. Wewant a board of control, within certainlimits of course, with poer defined, bilt aboard of control. Front the very fact thatany body of iien or women ore looked uponas a hoard of advice to visit anl institutionperiodically and spend alt hour or two there,there would he a tendency ant to take theduty seriously, litore particularly when theybad no powerto give effect to any changesthey mught desire to bring about. Th ey-would probably say, ''We are only a boardof advice.''

The Attorney General: They could orderthe discharge of patients.

Holl. P. COLLIER: Subject to that re-servation which I have already umentioned;that is the only powver given in this Bill, andnot possessed by the official visitors to-day.With regard to changes, alterations, or im-provetnents which miight or ought to heeffected in the institution, the board wouldrecognise that they had no power. Theywould be only a hoard of advice and couldonly record their opinions, and the tendencywould he to carry out their duties in a moreor less perfunctory manner. We want aboard of control, and I hope the House willlay it down that some control is going to beassumed over this institution by statutorypower, and over the Inspector General wh!ohas held sway for ever so long, and not inthe best interests of many of thoseconcerned. I anm reliably informed thatmany of the recommendations made bytho select committee, which could havebeen effected by the Inspector General-without very much trouble or incon-venience, have not been carried outtip to date, that they have been ignored,

and that this is going to continue under theboard wihich the Uovernment propose toappoint. That board will have no power tomake the Inspector General do what theythink hie should do. The Bill is weak. Thereshould be sonic power to release other thanthat of the Inspector General alone. An in-loate now has to get past thle Inspector Gen-eral and the Superintendent, and under theproposed board hie will have to get past an-other medical officer. It is true that threeother members of the board will not le medi-cal men, and that one of them will be alawyer. I fail entirely to understand whyone Miust be a lawyer.

Hall. WV. C. Angwin. They have copiedthe English Act; it is a good thing whenevidence is being taken to have a lawyer onthe board.

non. P. COLLIER: I do not know aboutthe taking of evidence. Wie find that whenit conies to a conmmon sense and practicalview of evidence, a laymian can judge it justas well as a lawyer. [a any case, the hoardwill consist of three non-miedical 'ien. Theywill deal with eases of release. The lawyeris to be the watch-dog all tine time, and inaddition there will be the oilier laymtan anda1 woman.

-Mr. Teesdale: The woman will Ile allriplht.

lion. P. ('OLTER: They always are. Itwvouldl want to be a very strong ease, andthey would require to be indepeudcent-inindedpecople, who would ignore the united opinionof the Inspector General, the Superinteni-lent, and tine medical member of the b~oard.That is what the three laymien would be upagainst.

The Colonial Secretary: The majority ofthe board has power to release a patient in-dependently of the Inspector General andthe Superintendent. Whn- bring titemiin!

lon. P. COLLIER: Because I aml 1usti-lied in bringing them in. Before the cawecame before the board the release wouldhave bad to be refused by the ispectorGeneral and Ole Superintendent. What wouldthe board do in the face of the refusal Ofthose two medical officers of the institutionto release a patient! The board would] harethe knowledge that the medical member ofthe hoard would also be against release.

Thte Colonial Secretary: There will hetwo medical men on the bocard, and one maybe in favour of the release of a patient. Themajority of the board would then decide.

Rion. P. COLLIER: But it is possible thatthe board would not go against the judg-mnent of three medical officers.

The Attorney General: The lawyer wouldhe a layman for the purposes of lunaey.

Hon. P. COLLIER: It stands to reasonthat the board would attach great weightto the opinions expressed b 'y the medicalin. I intend to oppose the second readingof the Bill unless I can get sonme assurancethat there will he a possibilitr of effec-tingradical amendments in Conmmittee.

[19 Oci'oaxa, 1920.] 18

M1r. HTCLCMOTT (Pingelly) [7.531: 1agree with what the- leader of the Oppositionhas said. We know that there has been agreat deal of dissatisfaction iii connectionwith the management of the Hospital for theInsane, and I agree also that too manny miedi-cal mn are to have a say in connection withthe proposed future control of the institu-tion. With two medical men on the board, Ido not see that it will be possible to effectany improvement in the management of theinstitution in the way that the select com-mittee investigated the position of. affairsthere desire. What we want is a board ofcontrol to take full responsibility. We knowthat there has been ill-treatment of patientsthere.

The Colonial Secretary: By whom?Mr. HICKMIOTT: By the warders.The Colonial Sertr: The facts then

are not known.Mr. .Joner: They caine out in evidence.Mr. HICKIOTT: The select committee

reported that there should be more careshown in the treatment of the patients. Itis my intention to oppose the second readingof the Bill in its present form, We shouldhave' a board that will take over the wholeof the management and see that the intitn-tion is lproperly conducted and better treat-nient is mueted out to the patients, We knowthat there are men in that institution at thepresent time who are as fit to be at large asmiany menibers in this Honse.

Non. members! Hear, hear!Honl. P. Collier: That is a doubtful quali-

fication for liberty.*Mr. H ICK-MOTT: I haye known some

of those inmiates. and f have known them tobe allowed out in charge of women. Theyhave visited the city and have attended placesof clitertainment. We know that 'Mable hasbeen allowed out for a week at a time. Wewere told that this mnas case was practic-ally incurable. 'Mrs. Mable war allowed out,though the doctor stated that she was suffer-ing from the same complaint as her husband.Mable has been allowed a good deal of libertyand no one has beetn in charge of hinm. IfMable is fit to be at large for days at atime surely lie is fit to be discharged fromthe institution. I know of the ease of anotherman who came from my own district, a manwhoin I have known for years. He has hadhis Periods of liberty, and at those timesI have talked to him* on every soibject thatwould be likely to excite him, and I foundthat there wras no difference whatever in theman's demeanour; in fact, he was just thesanie as he was before he first went Into theinstitution. Cases of that description re-quire close investigation. I trust that theMinister will adopt the recommendations of thaseleet committee and appoint a board of call-trol which wilt have the power to give in-structions to the Inspector General.

Hon. T. 'WALKER (Kanowna) [7.56]:After the able speech made by my colleague,the leader of the Opposition, little more

perhaps need be said. The hoe, member has-pointed clearly to the weaknesses in themeasure. tob my mind it is not a measure,which adds anything to what exists,. es-c-epting that qualified provision for releasein certain CircLumstances of patients uponwhich time majority of the visitors areagreeui. The cases onl which they canl cometo a conclusion, those where it is transpar-ently evident that the person should be setat liberty, they are emlpowered to set atliberty. But that is the only instance. Forthe government of an institution such asthe Claremont Hospital for the Insane, moreis required titan even monthly visits to.know what is going on, The sad spep-tacle-to mue is the fact that there are hundredsof patients there who arc allowed to wanderabout andl some of them allowed to leavethe grounds and go to town nd cotn-erse-with their friends, and who have had no.medical examination, no real test applied,as to their alleged delusions or mental suf-ferings. They can go on from week to.week and year to year without a doctor pay-inig anything like special attention to themn.In fact, it is one of the most serious-charges of the committee that recently satto investigate the matter, that the medicalmen were too few for the number of patients-at the asylum. Even if they devoted to theduty all their time during the 24 hours ofthe day, they could not possibly give specialattention or evon examnine each of the pati-ents, It is all left to chance; apparentlyalmost to accident. The institution, apartfrom management and feeding of thepatients, superintendence of the attendants,and reports to proper offeers, runs itselfappanrently. I questien whether even thuGovernment kniow all that is going Ojithere. Certaily the general public do notknow. I cannot vouich for the rumnourwhich is afloat that even during- the recentRoyal Agricultural S1how 'Week Somnethinglike half a dozen patients uot out of the in-stitution, and that some of them have notreturned rhore yet. Th'le public knew no-thing of that, and the Press is silent. Now,if those events can happen and the publicbe completely ignorant of them, we canimagine what events are happening otlesser importance, but still of vital con cernto the sufferers there. What canl a visitingbody-for that is all the Bill proposes-doiii a great institution like that? Of coursethey have power to go oftener than once amionth. They can go every night or everyday, either With notice Or Without no0ticeQ.They can spring, a surprise. But that iRrarely done with these visiting bodies.There has been experience of them not onlyin this State hut in every part of the worldl.Such bodies as a rule grow perfunctory-,grow weak in their enthusiasm. They donot perform the work entrusted to themwith any degree of zest or initiative. Theydo it as a sort of duty that has to be per-formed in order to carry out the trust which.has been placed upon theni. That is about

1011

10812(ASSEMBLY.]

all that is 'lone. With all the visitingbodies we have had in connection withl our

1 ,nhli- institutionis, what speciar benefit hasever been coinferred upon the commlunity?A visitinlg body is merely a sort of sop toCerberus. It is something, to keep the pub-)lie, investigation, away from thke main issue,away firoin the maini facts. These boardsare supposed to take some responsibility offthe Mteiial Superintendent and somec res-ponsibility off the Minister. The result ibto so distribute thme responsibility that iiithe cl it vests nowhere, that wre cannotmake anyone in particular responsible forthe disorders that Imppicnt in the insti tutionl.That position is exceedingly iierious. Weliave had visiting c',munittees and visitingboards to the asylum. We have had lawy'ersonl those visiting boards, andl I bielieve wehave hadl doctors on them. We have hail%vofletl on them. But what have the board.-evier done for the inmiates? I know ot(uses where an inmnate lias approached theboard andl has placed his case before them,and has given fact upon fact for investiga-tion. Yet not one inv-estigation has evertaken place, What Ilas been done? Whohas beeni moved? Who has stirred? Whohas cared?

Mr. C)'Loglllen: That is the point.l]oon. T. WALKER: The whole thing has

bean left just precisely where it was until ap~oinit has been reachled when the MedicalSuperintendent andl those on his immediatestaff have become the governors of a sortof little colony of people where they areahsolute autocrats and can do what theyplease, and are screened by the Minister iiicharge, protected by him, the public beingkept in absolute ignorance of what isgoing on. And events can happen, havehappened, which, if properly told, and thefacts fully placed before the public, woluldcause tile communijty to shndder. I needo1nly mention the Andinach case. That casehas received judicial investigation, but inspite of that the facts have never yet beenlornerl 'y told or properly weighed.

Mr. Jones: Bear, hear! The mail n-Ioknow about then, is dlead now.

Hon. 9I'. WALKER: I do not for anioment a that thle tribnals umiebic hadthe consideration of the Andinaelh ease wereswayed by any b iasi. They took the facts asthey were Presenited; hut they were pre-,ented not with acolonr of the b)each orthe law, but with the colour and bias of theasyluill itself. Let lle say here that long9before those investigations took place, agenitlemnan interviewed i*ne-nd T call hima gentleman with strict propriety-who hadlthe mnisfortunve to be in the observation wiardat the very time when Andinach wasdlon. to dearth. Lnng before he gave anyevidence, long before it was expected thatthere would hie any plici investigation, liegave to me the sallie farnts as he gave in e,'i-dic, and, he gave them in the gamte orderndo with the salne conviction and with, tile,,:live dmvions sincerity and truthfulness. "henl

those facts were presenlted i n court, how werethey answered ? They w~ere answered by theMedlical Superintendent, who said, ''The manhais a tinge o I insanity. - That is to say, them'all had been, in the observation ward of thePerth Public hlospital. The Medical .Superin-tendent urged, ''l)o not believe hin."' Thereis too much of that kind of dismissing evi-dence, genuine evidence; in the Andinach

,-a-e the evidence of the only man who couldtell the real facts, the manl who was in thetoom, on the fateful night. His evidence wasthrown aside because be too happened to havebeen in the observation wvard, though at theend of his period of detention there he wasdischarged as perfeetly sane. When suchthings as that can happen, and whea the doc-tors can give them that kind of colour, whiatchance is there for these poor incarcerated ill-dividuals, confined in an institution that onlthe whole many be eonsider~ld as worse thanour gaols? There i$ no chance for then, what-soever. The Bastille of old France was notone whit worse tihan these institutions whichran keep a man incarcerated for ever, im-earcerated until death releases him from hisaffliptions. And are we not going upon theseprinciples all the way through? There arecertain mn in that institution whom I know,whom T have visited more than once, whom, Thave had visit me. They ale accnsed of hay-iug delusions. Investigate those delusions, andit will be found that they are facts, that theyare the truth. But there is no effort to in-vestigate onl that score. The cry ''Delusions!ends Al inquiry, stops all further investiga-tionl, fastens the 'fetters onl these unfortunates,Puts them under lock and key, keeps themfrom the puhlie ear. As I say, I know ofcases whbere what the patients are accused ofimtagining is the truth, as can lie ascvertainedby investiaation. But of course investigationis altogether too cumbersome, too troublesome,too wearisome for a Minister or a medical offi-ice-. It is anl easier thing to keep these peoplein the asylum, to say that they aught not toget out, that they- are not fit to be at liberty.But ho, these thinvis canl change when it hap-pens to suit the doctors! There is within myknowledge a ease where a mil' was repeatedly4eilared to be unfit to be at large, declaredto le suffering from the worst possible kindof delusions. Possily lie nay [lave had sonicof those delusions,.1ilis is not a ease that Iput on all-fours with those I have previouslymentioned, where the- delusions, if examined,wvould he found to be facts. However, this isn-bat thle manl confessed to nip. He said, 44Tatm going to make an alteration in my conl-duct. I am not going to argue with the doe-tors any more. I am going to inake n noiseor trouble. They are afraid of tile because Ikirnow a little too unt-h about a particular case.I am just going to lumour the doctors andtall in with their ways, and( he ohedient, muild,lminible, and flattering to them.' -Ie did whatIt- said lie would do: and what was the re-wrlt Ile is out of the asylun, away in NewvZealand. Ie is in New Zealand at the pre-sent time unless lie left there within the laist

[19 OCTOBER, 1920.]10:

,leek or two. Such is the value of the testi-wn~y of these doctors. A man is unfit to beat large, but if fie will only get out of theroad, so that he cannot complain or tell hisstory to the world, the decision is, '"Go, boy,and good luck to you!'' lie is sent awayitihout guardins or attendants. That hal,-;'ened in connection with our own lunatic any-.urn, here close to Perth. But none of use cares.We do not trouble. We do not lose a wink ofsleep over it. And what imiprovemnent doesthis Bill propose on that state of affairs?Suppose wve get that visiting committee orvisiting board, with two doctors on it, with alawyer on it, with two laymen on it, ant[ alay woman on it. They go to the institution.Now, mark, they are only there on a visit, andcannot watch a patient. To test a person'3ssanity close observation is necessary, even unNiv solitude, when he is alone as wvell as whenhe is, so to speak, in a crowd. What is re-qutired is close observation of his conduct, andthe evidence by external signs of his internalmental and nervous state. One cannot guessat that; neither is it a thing that one cansound with an instrument. Knowledge de-pends entirely upon observation in such acase. What chance of observation can thesepeople have visiting once a month, and not allof them there perhaps at the time? What havethey to do? They have to take the opinionof the Medical Superintendent. They have toask him. And what his opinion is we knowfioux ]how he has treated cases in the past.What his opinion is we know from the reportof the select committee, which states thatthere is too little medical supervision and thatthe doctors cannot attend to all the patients.Is it not a folly to play with those things,when we are playing with mentality, withtIhose great powers that distinguish us fromtile brute, from the plant life; when we aredealing with those factors which have createdall the marvels of mind, have adorned andbeautified and electrified the world? wedo not want to play; we want to be serious.We' do not want to be callous, indifferent;we require to have a little human sympathyin our composition, and I say that thea doc-tors in charge of that institution, have notthose qualities. They have held, not onlyliver the lunatics but also over the attendants,a state of terrorism, not merely prior to theinquiry, which was a consequence of thatterrorismn, but since that inquiry; and atthe present dlay the spirit prevailing thereis one of determination to make every manand every woman on the spot knuckle underand work in the groove, and go alongsmoothly. Complaints of every kind mustbea got rid of. That is the prevailing spiritof the government of that institution now.And it is on the advice of the medical menthere that the visiting board is to act. Forthey cannot superintend them. They can-not be constantly in watch of thle patients.They cannot observe each individual case,or even the special cases as they require tohie referred to. They have to still depend

on the autocrats of the institution, and whatthen can they do to better the conditionsalIt is easy for the Minister-I know he hasbeen worried about all these things-to ap-prove of this sort of thing. He is to be outof it. ''Do not come bothering me; go tothe board; go to the superintendent; leaveIne alone; I van do nothing. There are menin charge, paid umen and paid women'WVe are to take away every responsibility;but to my mind we an never do it. TheMinister ulso has charge of this great de-partment of State, one of the by-productsof our civilisaition, must be responsible; andif there are people down there in torture, ifthere are people down there inhumanlytreated, we must make him responsible, allthe boards lie likes to create, notwithstanding..[ object to the Bill because it takes awayfrom' the Minister the responsibility.

Nir. O'Loghlen: Without clothing otherswith it.

Ron. TF. WVALKER: It does not clotheany with it. I am sure that this very board,with its boasted power of liberation, is afarce and cannot wvork practically. It can-not get the data and the material to do it.It has to depend still on the doctors incharge. The first thing I should recomn-mend, if I had tile power to carry out myown recommnendation, would be the dismissalof the heads of that institution and thesubstitution of up to date men in theirplaces-

lb,,. P. Collier: Hear, hear!

lion. T.' WALKER: Med who arc expert inthe treatment of this particular malady ormisfortune ealled insanity. You speakof your doctors; you must never goagainst your doctors. I have here a workwhich is particularly Australian. It waspresented to the Parliament of WesternAustralia by the author himself. It waspresented to the late Sir Jiames Lee Steere,tile Boit. the Speaker, with the author'smost respectfuil compliments. It is entitled''Lunacy in many Lands.'' It is to befound in our own library. There is no ex-case for members not consulting it whenthey desire information on the subject. Thisbook consists of mnore than 1,562 pages, forit is from page 1562 1 am going to read alittle. It shows that the subject is not onewhich a laymani or a lawyer or anyone elsecan deal with flippantly. It shows that in-vestigations and studies in connection withthe subject are enormous.. This is how thisauthority speaks of certain matters whichhear intinmtely upon our own asylums-

Some superintendents ignore medicinefrom, a belief that that moral treatmentis miore berneficial, others; advocate onekind of medicine, others something else,few agreeing but each following his ownfancyr-

[t shows that the superintendents requiresonmething more than a visiting board tolook after them when they are dealug with

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1084 [ASSEMBLY.]

this terrible misfortune of mankind, mad-gles. The author continue--

while same again leave all to Nature,' ex-cept when they use medical and mechanicalrestraint-

Which bas been done in our own institution.The author Continues-

which might be well dispensed with.Hon. W. C. Angwin:- They have been dis-

pensed with in most parts of the world.Hon. T. WALIKER: Yes, except in West-

era Australia. We are right away behind,and we propose to perpetuate the system ina now Bill. The author continues-

These collected opinions warrant the be-lief that until the study of mental dis-eases is conducted with greater uniformityand on sounder scientific principles, anduntil research of all kinds is made incum-bent on the medical officers at everyasylum or hospital for the insane, the pre-sent unsatisfac-tory conditions must re-main, unless some more correct method isdiscovered by chance, or some of the medi-Cal Profession outside of asylums makeinsanity a study and work out the pro-blem of treatment. Indeed it is doubtfulwhether our present knowledge of mentaldliseases is not less due to .tbe mentalofficers of institutions than to the outsideprofession.The Attorney General: What is the date

of that book?Hon. T. WALKER: It is not very recent.

I have read a nice little speech on the deathof thle authur by the late Sir Henry Parkes.This work was published in 1887.

Mr. 0 'Loghien: What does the date sig-nify?

Ron. T. WALKER: If in 1887 theseopinions were abroad, what arc we doing in1920 with the things the author complainsof still in vogue in our own asylum I Thehook is not right up to date, but it is sofar up to date that it shows us where thereforms are still to be made.

Mr. Jones: It is in advance of our methodshere.

Hon. T. WALKER: That is so. Theauthor continues-

Judging from the returns of cured in vari-ous countries, it will be seen that the pro-portion of recoveries is about the same Inmost weltconducted institutions, wherenormal and hygienic means are alone reliedupon, and that the proportion is not al-tered by the most elaborate medical treat-ment, but that the rate of cures is greaterwhere no restraints are used-

That is the point I am impressing upon mem-bers. This was known in 1887, but it is notyet realised by the Attorney General. Theauthor continues-

and where quietness and good managementare prineipaly relled upon, as in the caseof small, well organised institutions. Therecovery of patients will be seen to be ex-

ceedingly small if the returns are com-puted on all under treatment during theyear instead of as at present on those ad-mitted during the year, f or those admittedduring that time may form no portion ofthose discharged cured for the year. Un-der the present form of calculation-and]it is adopted in most countries-the bestresults are shown for the institution, butthe public are misled. The -right of theinsane to be treated, at least as nearly aspossible, like other human beings should beinsisted on, for it must be borne in mindthat the numerous forms of mechanical re-straint, enforced baths of all kinds, and thevariety of other irritating, vexatious, andi

!unnecessary restrictions are proved to beinjurious, and are shown to be the out-come of each superintendent's own whimand fancy-in many instances to savetrouble, and in others the result of ignor-ance. Insanity is much the same in itsfeatuires in all parts of the world, andtherefore if a large proportion of super-intendents call conduct their institutionswithout restraint with positive benefit to,all concerned, no argument is left in itsfavour. As a rule, where restraint is mostused, it will be found that the manage-meat is the most defective, and disorderreigns throughout.

That was the opinion of a learned New SouthWales doctor in 1887.

Ron. P. Collier: It fits Claremont to-day.

Hon. T. WALKER. If he had writtenabout the Claremont asylum in the last fewwords I have read, he could not have comeat the point more fully and directly.

Mr. Davies: Are you against the boardof control?

Hon. T. WALKER; No, but I am againstthe visiting board. I want a permanentinstitution with power to say to Dr. Ander-son, if it were necessary, ''You are not fit tohave charge of this instil-ution. Your dis-position is not such, or Your actual attain-ments''-I am not questioning his attain-ments in certain directions, but othersmight-''are not sufficient for the post.'' Porwhatever -reason it may be, they say, "Youare not the man to have charge of this de-licate disease known as insanity. We regretit but you will have to go." That is whatis wanted. Now we can do nothing. I havebeen a student more or less of that institu-tion for many years. I knew the late Dr.Montgomery. I had some prejudice againsthim at first, before I knew him well.But I learned to respect him for I knewthat he understood his work, and the deli-cacy of what he had in hand. What a Con-trast to the man in power now! That insti-tution, so far as its improvements are con-cerned, and so far as its being brought intoline with the great advancements in otherparts of the world are concerned, wasfounded by the late Dr. 'Moatgomery. Whathas gone ahead since? Perhaps the M1inis-ter in Charge can tell us. What has been

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f19 OCTOBER, 1920.] 18

done since the death of the late Dr. MXont-gornery? He was a man who did commandthe respect even of his patients. He was arun who could be trusted in the work liewas doing. Unfortunately the sickle otdeath mowed him down, and he has beensucceteded by a man of entirely differentteinperanisnt and different qualifications, amian who wants to be more than that, whodefies Mlinisters and who, in fact, gets hisown way, for this Bill is his measure. Some-thing had to be done to ineet the wishes ofthis House. After last session's inquiriesomnething had to be brought forward, andthis abortion of a measure is what is sup-loosed to satisfy an enlightened public andmeet the necessities of the hour. It is aninsult to intelligent men. It is a wrong- tothe a~yluln. That is where it must be feltmost, hy these poor wretches suffering intheir infirmity. It is an additional loadthat they have to hear. They become awareof what is happening. They know thatwhen a Bill like this poasses, their lot in lifeis hopeless. How can we expect a man ofwithered intellect to blossomI forth afreshif hie is deprived of the mainstay of hope?Take that away from a man and his wholebeing becomes moribund. That is whatthis species of legislation does. I have nowords of indignation to pour forth to meetthe situation when I know that 3finisterscan indifferently let this matter pass onfront day to day and week to week, andfanvy theyv are reformers, when they placethis power more firmily' in the hands of thle

-vey yrntwhose right to be where hoe isweaequestioning, i not speaking with

ally rancour towards Dr. Anderson. Hieis nothing to isa; nor are the doctors any-thing to me. It is for these unfortunatesthnt I c-are andi on whose behalf I speak.They have no voice. Even if they articu-late they are not always consequential; theyare not always coherent. When the mindof inan has become enfeebled and diseasehas settled on this most delicate portionof the human frame, they mast have some-one to speak for thenm. Thank goodnessthere are men in this Chambher who cangive them the voice that they need. Thankgoodness that the mov-ement which hashumanity as its object, which takes its in-sp~iration and very atnmosphere from thesufferings of humanity, and which is re-presented on these benches, is loud in itsdesire to assist these helpless ones, and toheap scorn upon this abortive measure,which fortifies stronger than ever the evilslarid ahuses that have been allowed to per-secute humanity too long, even in this enL-lightened century and supposed civitisedcountry,

Mr. 0 LOGILJEX' (Forrest) [8.35]: Myremarks wilt be brief after the eloquentspeech we have just heard in opposition tothe Bill. I realise that when the Ministernmakes an attempt to bring in legislationaiming at reform, it is the generally accepted

policy in Parliament to take half a loafrather than no bread. I think most boa.meimbers will tome to the conclusion thatthis Bill has many shortcomings. I am dis-

apitedI in it. I believe the majority ofrehrs will be able to impress upon the

Minister the fact that be has hopelesslyfailed to represent ac-curately the views thatwere lint forward from both sides of theflotree last session. When the select corn-mrittee was appointed from this House, toinvestigate the glaring accusations whichwere levelled at this institution, there waSappointed to it a group of men whose wordcould be taken regarding this institution,and who applied themselves With diligence tocarry out their allottedl task to get at the rootof the position that existed, arid put forwardto the Assembly reconanienlations which wouldlend to a devided improvemnent. These recoin-mendations have now been placed before us.I believe the reason which prompted the'M inister to delay the introduction of theBill was that mnore nioncy was required toenlarge the institution before a scheme ofreform could he brought forward, aind be-fore the recommendations of the conimitteecould be taken into consideration. If thatwere the case we can only regret that theMinister, perhaps owing to a lack of experi-ence in his department, allowed so long a.time to elapse before taking the necessarysteps, I realise that it is an important de-partmnent and that the Minister in charge Ofit requires to have exceptional gifts and astrong character. Possibly it is owing to theinexperience of the Minister in the adminis-tr-ative -work of this country that hasprompted him to bring down a Bill thatfalls so far short of the requiremnirts of thesituation. The leader of the Opposition aridthe lnst speaker hit the nail on the head. Itis not necessary for mue to enlarge on theirpoints, when they drew attention to the in-adequacy of the proposed board. A boardof advisers is one that cannot have any last-ing benefits. It may he air imaprovemient onthe present system, inasmuch as it may ex-pedite the negotiations for the release of in-mrates. It many help on the sympathetic

efforts that may be made to place eases inthe right quarter. If we look hack over theposition of honorary boards in this country,We Cannrot feel that they have accomplishedvery much. I would be the lost to disparagethe efforts of men and women who through-out Western Australia have given their timeand attention to Overlooking our public in-stitutions. You, Sir, have had experience inyour own district where the Educatioa De-partment, following out what they believedto be the honourable policy of appointingschool boards of advice, have found thatthese boards have fallen into disuse.

'Mr. Davies. They are dropping themnow.

Mr. 0 'LOGHLEN: Yes, because experi-ence has taught them that in the individualsselected to serve in these boards, there is a.lack of enthusiasm and desire. to perform

1084

[ASSE-MBLY.]

the ntessnrv duties allotted to thein. So itcoles about that one of the important de-partuieats of State is drojppiiig altogetherthe systemt of honorary boards.

The Attorney General: This is not anhonorary boardf.

Mr. 0 'Lou HLEN:- Tile appointments atall events, are not made attractive. The re-nioneration is not such as would enable apersoni to live entirely on it. The point mnadeby the speakers on this side of the House isthiat there should be a board set uip, no miat-ter what thne cost mjay be. t do not thinkthat the people of the State would[ object tothe cost. There sitouhi be a board of Coin-iiiissiohers Set Uip, furnished with extendedpowers which would enable them to lookupon their duties. as religion itself, and ap-plyv themselves towards probing every easewhere probing was necessary. There shouldbet. a .group of ni and women, or profes-sional men or layninea, who would havethe confidence of the country, and who1 lii lie' able to present in their anl-mali re~port tihe actual state of affaiLrs

as they existed. I believe that after a1perigid of years their experience would liesum-in that we would see tangible results. Arewe getting results to-day! I do not knowthat the Minister is entirely to blamec, orthat the Superintendent of thle institution oranctuls else is to lamle. The conmunity asa *whole requires to have a more intimateknowledge as to the managemient of thisins titution. Admittedly it is a dillicult pro-ls'n that confronts the Minister. They are

ev il environments for anyone to work in.I believe the system advocated ini somecconlitiiiental countries, and to a certain eS-tent in the Old1 Couantry, is that thle wholestaff, the doctors, the nurses, and the ward-ers are periodically takea away f or achange, and transferred front that environ-nment so that they can forget the conditionswhich collie before their gate every la 'y. f'thou,. memibers were put out of occupationtonmorrow this particular work would] be thelast in the worldl with wich they wouldlidlentify' themselves, nanely, the inanlage-miilt of those who are unfortunately'afflicted with mental darkness. Most lion.menibers shuddler onl visiting the institto-tioll, knowing the awful conditions thatmost exist there, and which cannot be 1,re-vented perhnaps by the best ilitentionedlGovertnent that ever existed. Ani effortshuld be mnade in the direction (of super-y-ang tine c'ontrol of this institnthon. Tothis end a group of men atid women, 1105-s,'nsrd of the elements of hiunian sympathy,sneh as is required tfor so painstaking andlilijdlt a work, should lie appihointed. Icotteid that all is inot well with the C'lare-imolt Hospital for the Insane. I ampr.'nh'teu to make that remnark through liav-ipg been brought in daily contact with m.pn-tam iinen who have worked in that insti-t :t inn, These mien and women have grie-

ar-.and they would not have themt unlesst] 'ro was a ile.-p-sented reason for them.

There is a lack of co-operation. between thlesuperintendent and the staff in the home.It there is one institution i the Conmnon-wealth where there should be unanimnity be-tween thle superintendent and staff it is theClaremont Hospital for the Iasane. Quar'-rels may eventuate in public departmenitsand the Minister mnay be called in to settledlispuites, lint these arc trivial matters coia-llart'il with a lack of harmony, distress, din-satislaction and discontent ini an institL-tion such as this, If the Minister camne downwith supplementary Estimates to providemnoney which would give a greater measureof comfort and more accommodation to theimates of this institution members wuodhave 110 hesitation, I feel sure, in passingthem. Tfhe select cormmittee put forth adaunting inilitinent against the lack of at-eoinnodntion in i uaiy respects and the lackof attention, andi riey drew special nttei--tion to the case of one of our winners of thleVictoria Cross, wcho was put under restraintfor ant unduly lung period. The ease maybe a hopeles.s onie, and there may be hun-dueds of cases similar to this, yet we mustknow from our own experience that thereare many persons in tile institution forWhoni there May still be entertained agleani of hope that they can get out pro-vided they have kindly treatment and thebest possible attention that thle State can,give theml. 1 ant not saying that the Minis-ter is acting in a callous spirit. I do holdthe opinion, however, and I amn sincere inthis, tllat if there is one officee in WesternAustralia that requires the widest possibleknowledge and experience it is tile office of(olomlal Sleeretar)-. The present Minister isa lavutall, antd is largely in the hands of hisuficers. If these officers hanve not tine pro-perV disposition and temperament, amid havenut that knoawledge of humnani affairs or thatamiount of liuman symp~atby that is neces-saryv, time- Minister beconmes to a large extentmerely a rubbier stanip. I aim not sayingthat of tile piresent Minister, but I arn re-ferring rlather to another. It was said slur-it)'- the war that many of the hinge blundersv hich wvere afterwards brought to light inlthe Defence TDepartmlent were largely madeoaing to the fact that tile Minister inchalrge was a laymtan, and was dominatedtoo frequently by high military heads. Ibelieve that tine miitary sipirit is not alto-gether absent fromn the administration oftie C'lareniont 'Hospital for the Insane.

Mr. Tonesq: Too true.'Mr. 0I LOU IILEN: There are two eon-

flietiug methouds employedl there, aild as aresult there is a lack of harmnony. I hateto hea-tr emnployees (if anl inlstitution eontillu-allyv i-ilmms agaiit the heads and( the In-sliecptir General; I hlate to know that thleIn~spetor Ucu-ieral has his. knife imnto the in-dividual enilcnees Onl time' Staff. We 1-nna111tget satisfactory service uinder such condli-tion., and I will not accept flie assertiotttlint scores of lenp'le working lit aii inqti-tiitiom., rttiling tri the mteed4 (if thevir un-

f19 OCrOBER, 1920.10R

fohi; nat.' afflicted fellow men auji 'dwomen,ame entirely' in the wvrong every time. I be-lj.'rt that the lack of co-operation and har--

ry can largely be laid at the door of thead,,instrative staff-the Inspector Generaland those immediately under him. I havekaow,, people go to thec institution never tocome out of it, unfortunately. I have knowniothers who have been liberated, and are nowdoing well. li the whole history of huimanaffairs, if there is one section of the eonm-lliunity who should[ enlist the sympathy andiniterest of not only members of this Housebut of the community as a whole, it is thatsection which is detained within this institu-tion to-day. f believe the 'Minister would liewise if he insisted on a chabnge so far as theInspector General is concerned for a periodof 12 months at any rate, and transferredohin r officers to different positions for atpvi iod, so as to give them a change fromtheir every day surroundings at Claremont.That wvould enabile them to forget their en-vironinent, and, it is a matter of conmmounkoowledge that our environment has a greateflect in the moulding of our lives. Whereis; there a worse place where this influencecan conile into play than in the administeringof affairs of anl institution like this? Sofar as T nan concerned, I would he preparedto justify this Governnment in any part ofthe counitry, if they provided a largerveoe to further the work of the in-stitution. I hope the Minister willnot persist too much with this Bill,for the reason that it does not go farenlough. it sets uip a, hoard withoutgiving that body the powers that the sel-ect -oinnittee of this House, after takingvoluminous evidence, reconmmended should begive ii.

Th~e .Xttornev General: The hoard hssnearly all the powers of the Inspector (len-eral now.

lion. W. C. Angwin: It has no power ofnuanagenient.

Mr. (Y1IjOG;HLEN: It hafs no power ofcontrol. I trust tlhnt the Attorney Generalknow., that f dto not disparage mnedicalopinlion.

'nbe Attorney General: I know that.Mr. I)'LOGULEN: The nmenmber for

Piagelly (Mr. Hiekynott) kno ws of a malwho, while out on leave from the instit ution,app.'art'd to lbe aes sane aft any mni.

The Colonial Secretary: And the man lieim-tioned ha., been examined since and hasbeen proved to he absolutely Insane.

M1r. O'LOGHLEN: None of us can setup anl opiinion against thle opinions of medi-cal ipeoj~le. I know of a manl in there whocall, from a district which you, '.\r. Speaker,1-epresent, a an with whom I workied. A~ny-one -an speak to that inmate on almost every*li.3(cr under the gun, nd he will appear tobe r., sane as possible. There is only" oneqnc~tion, regarding electricity, upon whichhie 1, really isne. H-e flies off at a tangent

just as the nmember for East Perth, (Air.Hardwick) flies off regarding astronomy.

Mr. Hlardwick : There ire a lot of patientsthere who should be out, and a lot out, whoshould he inl.

Mr. 01'L{XllLEN : Yes, and the board willnot let then, out. That is why we protestagainst this provision.

The Colonial Secretary: That is not so.

Air. ()'LOGHLEN: Yes, that is what itamounts to, because the system is so tor-tuous and cnunbersonme that the board will beguided by the overwhelming medical opinion.

The Colonial Secretary: Wonld you agreeto three laymen releasing Say patient fromthe institution?

Mr. 0 'LOGHLEN: No, not without amedical opinion.

The Colonial Secretary: Exactly-, andthat is what we provide for.

Mr. 0 'LOGHLEN: The Minister has- al-icady been told that the two medical nien onthe board hlave already given their opinion.They' have already shown their attitude,ad ii, answer to an inquiry Said they

were not prepared to liberate a patient.The Colonial Secretary: Yes, but this

board is given power to deal with that.Mr. O'LOGBLEN: They may he given

thle power, hat it is a power which the boardwill fail to exercise in vie"- of thme prejudiceand( hostility that is sometimes shown by theInaspector General nad those immediatelytinder hin,. If tme nmember for Kanowna(lion. TI. Walker) was correct to-night--

Mr. Ilardwilc He was not correct.

Mr. 0 'LOGIILF.N: D~o you assert that hewas not correct when lie detailed the ease heinlstanced?

Air. Hardwiek: I do not take notice ofa 50 years' old matter.

Mir. O'0 'TlTfllN: The holl. muemiler ishimself hackin the Stonle age, amid hi', n-illnever get out of it. The ease quoted to-night was that of a mail who hail showna clifferemit attitude towards the Superinten.dlent and the medical staff, lie is now inNew Zealand. I know an individnal who is in.South Australia at thme present tinme, and shehas never Snffered from anything in her lifewhich justified her in going iinto this institu-tion. They sonmetimes go there, and theyv are

oreset fly released. The board proposed

TInspector General; it will still be the intru-nuent by which he will exercise his doininat-ing influence, as he has beeun accustomned todo for years past. Members mayr go throughthme streets and meet people who have heenin the institution, and they will find that,rightly or wrongly, there is a pronouncedprejudice against the administrative nwethod"emiployed at the institution.

Thle Attorney General: Thme real diff-eulty is the question of management, as wellas time functions of the board.

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1088 [ASSEMBLY.]

IMr. SPEAKER: Order! These are mat-ters for the Committee stage. t

Mr. O'LOGHLE.N: The Attorney Generalknows as wvell as any other member that whenParliament appointed that select committee,they (lid not appoint them for picnic pur-poses. The House selected men who wverethe most capable available to carry out theinvestigation into the charges that had beenmade. We as a Parliament asked the Gov-ernmenit to carry out the recommendations ofthat select committee. The Inspector Generalhas not given effect to any of those recoin-menilations. He may have instituted a fewreforns, hut, generally speaking, the recoin-inuendations have not been given effect to.There were whoops of delight from the In-spector General and other mnedical mn wvhenthe first Royal Commission was proposed andrejec-ted, and the [nspector General publiclystated that hie did not believe in the selectcommittee. I have never met tlhe InspectorGeneral, and T do not desire to disparage anymedical 'nan who is engaged in this vry .In-Jporttat work. I contend, however, that thereexists at the institution a position that doesnot augur well for its future. I think thatthe Minister in charge of this departmentwill require to stiffen his spine to a verygreat extent i order to bring about a bettersystem of administration 'in order to get awaysomewhat fron, the state of affairs which ex-its there at the present time, and to secure

co-operation and unanimity among wardersand nurses for the benefit of the patients. Wewill then have an institution costing moremoney, hut what are a few thousand pondsweighed against the welfare of such patients?

fIe. AV. C. Angwin: You will save moxie)if you have a board of control.

Mr. 0 'LOOHLE-N: We are prepared totake the advice of the select committee whoinvestigated this problem, and there is no onewho carries more weigh~t than the memberwho has just interjected. Wh71y have not theGovernment accepted this proposal? Whyhave the Government, after we hearkened totheir request to close up Parliament last ses-sion and let them, get into recess so that theymight attend to these affairs, produced, afterall this time, a Bill that is absolutely futile,and which fails to give those reforms whichevery humanitarian iii this country desires

tsee brought into operation? For thesereasons I trust that the Minister will takenotice of the reforms foreshadowed by theleader of the Opposition, and that hie will re-draft this Bill to give the board greaterpowers. If he does not do so, I predict thatthe bulk of the inmates of the institutioa to-day and those who will go there in the future,wI lose heart and lose all initiative or de-sire to improve at all, and that across thegates of that institution we might just aswell write, "Abandon hope all ye who enterhere.II

On motion by Attorney General, debate ad-journed.

1-ILL-CITY OP PERTH ENDOWMlENTLANDS.

In Committee.Resumed from the 30th Septenmber. Hon.

0 ' Taylor in the Chair; the Attorney Gen-eral in charge of the Bill.

Clause 20-Power to ran motor omnibusesand motor-cars:

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The Come-mittee reported progress on this clause. Whatwas hit the mind of the Committee was thepossibility of motor buses being used by thecity council to compete with the Governmenttramways. The clause as it stands gives thecouncil power to run motor buses within thelands covered by the Bill. If they go Out-side this land, they have to obtain the consentof the Governor in Council. There was alsoanother question regarding the power tomake by-laws. in order to avoid any pos-siluility of conflict between the Governmentand the city council regarding the services,1 propose to move a couple of amendments toomnit the words ''for passenger traffic" andalso the words ''to make and enforce by-law-s"' in the clause, amid also to adld a pro-viso. I move an aumendment-

That in line 2 after "'cars"' the words''for passenger traffic'' be struck out.Hon. AV. C. ANOWIN: The council should

hare power to build a tramway or run motorsfrom the nearest point of the existing tram-ways to the extreme boundary of their ownland, and they should be able to lease or selltheir own tramway to the Government. Thatis all the council should ask. They should notbe able to run in opposition to the Govern-inent system. If the words are struck out,it will be impossible to carry passengers oatto this area until tramways are constructed,and how an the council expect People topurchase land there unless they can be con-veyed to and from the city? Ta Londonwherever 'buses are running, the tramns areempty. In fact, the fare from one terminusto the other between the hours of 10 and 4is only 2d., the object being to encouragetraffic on the trains. The 'buses are quickerand they convey people nearer to their homes.

The ATTORNEY GEINERAIL: I men a"anxious as the member for North-East Fre-mantle to prevent competition with the Gov-erment tramnways. Clause 7 gives the cityCouncil power to run tramnways within theendowment lands and the Lime Kilns Estate,and also outside that area with the consentof the Governor. If the council built a tram-way within the Lime Kilns Estate there wouldbe a big gap between the Government tram-ways and the council tramway.

Mr. Foley: It would be two and three-quarter miles.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thisclause, gives the council power to run motorsoutside the two estates with the consent ofthe Governor, but the consent of the Gov-ernor would be required to connect up -withthe Government tramnways. Let uls assume

[19 OCTOBER, 1020.)

that the Government net only continued theirtramways to the boundary of the City Coun-cil lands, but obtained a lease of the train-ways on these estates. 'Unless there wassomething to prevent competition, the CityCouncil might compete within their estateswithout obtaining the consent of the Gov-eraor. By passing the ameadment, everypossibility will be safeguarded.

Ron. W. 0. Aagwia: Why are you cut-ting out passenger traffic?

The ATTORNEY GE]NERAL: It mightbe desirable to run motors for other pur-poses.

Ho)). P. Collier: The clause as amended-will include passenger traffic without specifi-tally stating so.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: That isso.

Mr. FOLEY: If the words are struck outthe council wvill be able to run motors forpurposes other than passenger traffic. TheCity Council must have this right in orderto cart stone from that area. The Lime KiunsEstate was purchased largely on account ofthe supplies of building stone there.

Ron. W. C. Angwin: There is nothing toprevent them from running motors for stone.

Mr. FOLEY: Quite so. but if the clansewere limited to running motors for passen-ger traffic, the council might be preventedfront carting stone or other material, andthtus the estate would become a white ele-phant. The city of Perth is safeguarded bythe fact that the Attorney General has put inthe proviso " that the consent of the Governorin Council must he obtained. '' That will'have the same effect as the proviso that isnow in Clause 20.

Anmendmtent put and passedl.The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I move a

further amendment-That in line 4 thle words "and make and]

enforce by-laws'' be struck out.Amendment put and passed-Hon. WV. C. ANGWIN: I would like sonic

information with regard to the proviso of-the clause. It reads t"provided that thlecouncil shalt not run any such ontnibus ormotor car service beyond the endowment oflands and the Lime hIlns Estate without theconsent of the Governor.'' Under that pro-v-iso will it be possible for the Governmentto impose limitations, or will it be possibleto conduct a service outside the endowmentlands?

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I shouldinterpret the proviso to mean that it givespower to run to such and such a place andonly to that.

Hon. P. COLLIER: The proviso can bemade clear by saying ''in such districts orareas.'' In tltat way we can make sure thatwe retain the power to limit the activitiesoutside.

Mr. FOLEY: Power is asked to enable thecouncil to run these facilities themselves orto lease them to other people. On the otherhand, the Government have the right either

to grant the rights wholly or in a limitedmanner. Tile general feeling of the PerthCity Council was that they Shouild run motor'buses or other vehicles on the estate and ifp)ossible to connect_ those vehicles with thetramway systemi, Whatever system is putinto effect it will be run as pert of the tram-way system under arrangement between thecouncil and the Government.

The ATTORNEY GE'NERAL: I havedrafted an addition which I think will meetthle wishes of tite meamber for North- EastFremtantlc, I move an amendment-

That the following words he added tothe proviso, ''and the route of suct ser-vice shall be limited and defined by tlteterms pf such consent."'Mr. FOLEY. The amen dment is not neces-

sary. When tite council put their requestbefore the Government they had plans -show-iNg the route of the proposed tramway ormotor car service. No Government would giveanyone a concession unless they Itad the ful-lest knowledge of what the concsion meant.I do not suppose, however, that the amnend-ment wvill do any harm.

Amnendivent put and passed.The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I move

an amendment-That thle follow-ing further proviso he

adlded-'' 'Provided also that the councilshall not run any such onibuhs or motorservice within thle endowment l-andi -andthe Lime Kihis Estate without the like v-on-Sent if at anly titan the Counc1i tramwaysare acquired by the Governor.'Amendment put and passed; thle clause,

as amended, agreed to.Clauses 21 to 24-agreed to.Clause 2-5-Oovernment right of purchase:

Hon. P. COLLIER: Why is the right ofpurchase by the Government restricted untilafter the expiration of 25 years? Fs shereason to be found in the provision thatnothing shall be paid for goodwill? TheGovernment should have thme right to pur-chase at any time, Most of the capital pitiesof Australia, and also important towns else-where, have found occasion to regret hav-ing given rights over their toads and streetsto tramiway, companies for periods of 253 yearsor so. It7 is for that reason -Melbourne hashad to put up withi the antiquated ca-ble aye-teni so long. We ought not to tie the bianldsof future Governments in titis way. Perthis young, aad it is growing, and as regardsits outer suburban areas it will be vastlydifferent in the course of 15 or even 10yearsk.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: This clausehas been inserted partly for the reason thatnothing is to be allowed for goodwill. Rttp-pose thme tramway was coastrueted to-day;it must he run at a loss for foulr or fiveyears at least. If the Government hadI theright to purchase at any time, this situationaight arise: the tramway having been run

1090 ASSEMJBjY.1

at a loss for seven yearst, the Governmentstep in and purchase in the eighth year-purchase, that is, tar the value of plant andconstruction without any allowance for good-will, However, I an; not wedded to the periodof 25 years.

Hon. P. Collier: It seemis to mne that thlebetter course would be to strike out the 25years i n ta tionH and allow something forgoodwill.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I hardlylike that suggestion, because I know whatsometimes has to be paid for goodwill. rPherewas the ease of the Perth Gas Company, foriastance. However, I do not think goodwillwould amiount to very much in this ease.Some termn should be fixed for the protectionof thle Perth City C'oncil.

Hoa. P. COLLIER: I recognise the forceof the point raised by the Attorney General.We know what amounts ore allowed by tri-bunals for goodwill in the case of such un-dertakings as this one. Perhaps the periodof limitation might be reduced to 15 years.OIn principle I like to retain the right of theGovernment to acquire these utilities at anytime when the Pnrliamn( of the day miaydeemn it advisable. The loss incurred (luringthe period of operation by the Perth CityCouncil might be ivcouped to them. I pro-p~ose to more an ameondmnent that in SnbclauseI the words ''after the expiration of twenty-five years train the passing of this Act'' shallbie struck out.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: The PerthCity Council approached mnc in coninec-tionwith this matter when they first requestedthe Governmnent. to extend the existing tram-way system to the Ocean Beach. 1 thenpointed out that we were not in a positionto construct what mnight be considered a re-crentioh tramuway while settled portions of themetropolitan area were still waiting for tram-way facilities. Tile object of the Perth CityCouneil, of course, was to develop their en-dowient lands. Usually in such cases theidea, is to make a profit, not train the tramn-way traffic, but fron tile sale of the laudmade available for settlement by the con-struction. of the tramnway. Thle Perth CityCouncil objected that they could not be ex-peeted to findl the capital for the construe-tiomi of the tramway while there was the riskof thle Government stepping in at any timieto purchase. If we take the right of coiujoiiibsory purchase of the tramnway to be con-strut-ted by the Perth Clity Council, wre oughtto protect the muniicipanlity by a provisionithat any loss ira-urred bis them during theperiod of their operation of the tramiway s-hallbe added to the cast of plant and construc-tion. Of -ourse, iuring the perinil of theiroperation the Perth City Coun-il will havehad tile benefit of development of their landshr reason of the exisLtence of thei tramwuay.'the (;overnment could profitably extend theexisting trnmwa. -ystemi as far as Sellair -street, and the remainder of the constractionrequired to mjeet thle dlesire,; of the Perth

City C"onncil is not vcr ' great I tlhu. weshould retain the right at ipurclias', sti0 - i-to no loss being allowed to accrue to thiePerth City Council.

lion. P1. Collier: They iniiglit make a 2(o~soil the i-tnning of the tri-away, andt yet ii-ake!a huge profit on the sale of their lands.

Thie IMINISTER3 FOR MINFS: Esa'-tly-Their Only object in ealistructing tlit train-way would be to sell their lands, It' thatni-ea is settleil, as 1 think it will lbe, whentrainway conveniences have l1ccn mnade avail-able foi other portions of the metropolitan

Ira tile (Gov-ernmlent should construct thistnaliwtiy also. If, on the other hand, thePerth C.ity Council want their lands developledal, an earlier stage by mneans olf a tramlway,they should construct that tramnway themn-selves, gitljevt to coinjiulsory purc-hase by tieCoveinment on the teriiis I have su~ggested.,Tlhe policy of the Stare should lie that the-whole of the metropolitan tramnway sy4elmiust remiain i-ith the (to;-erninent.

Mi- FOLL-JY: Proiii thle SItate s p~oint ofvicew I think it would he better to let thec1luse standl as it is. If tile Governmentvannot -oiistruet this tri-awav, thien theLuenret approach to the ('overi-ttt nanielythe local governinig authority, should dlv thlewvork. If' the Perth ('it; Cotincil hoqve.c al"Ycerta in period within wict to rnt the train-wavo at tile end of which it must lie handedover to thle G-erment, that tiill lie a strongitt-entire to themit to improve their lands.The adoptionl Of the suj~ggestion nMadle by theMinis.ter for 11isies would mnean that thleState might he called upon to pay for snilte-thing that i-tally te Perth City Ciouncil wouldhave a ri'ght to play for, Seeing thnit thle lossi mll be the result of thteir niistake. On, theether iniild. if thle muieiipalitr cons11trut thetramwa-y, they will need a1 few vears' runntingof that trimway to recotip tlhemi for the, air-lay of their nioney, through thle Medinni ofthe increase iii tlte value of the lands wvith-hthey, will have iiiproveul. All that woiild lielet to the i-aunt-il w-ould lie the right to ratethose peopole iving there . Atthic eiiil t 251Nears1 thle -ot111i1 AuIIl tile tioWT-~erm t wouldboth hutioi awhere they were. 'rhe Minivter-n-ill lie, W1.-1 adivisedl to leav'e thle clue as itstands.

'Mr. C)'t.OGIIKN : I supplort the snigg--te'iai ~irniienlt, a ad I wish to express iny -yin-jathy with time inenber for Leonoi-a i: hisdifficult positin. [ do not think it is alto-gether in keep'ing with the fltit-ss (of t1lngsthat counttry' ineinliers alone shiouldn 1w' hi-4ussmttg a Bill dealing exi-lusivelr with im-t-u-

1-olitait afrairs. I stuggest that looire-. liereported in ordler to allown-iitvtrltitan -tii-hers to lie iri~ecit.

(In inotinii liv the Attiainer Oenera'l, 'I]'-tliem i-onsideration of the vlan-i' hIestllol;'--

('lansis 20, '27, unil "S-akreed to-i 'luse 29-Sqmiail rate, to i-over ha! ';itV

Jan Ivaoni

1090

[1S) Oc'roax, 1920.1111

lon. AV. C. ANO-WI N: Where is thle nIces-sit v for strikiiig a rate %%tl there is everyph oliability of a profit!

'rTe 'Minister for %liles: A rate must hec.,truck to ensure interest and sinking fuinul onlthe loanl.

lion. AV. C. ANC'WIN : The rate can Ilel,truek when required. Under thi, provisiona rate wrill be struck for no better purposethan to deposit the resultant money in thehank. if at the end of the year the moneyis not required, it wrill hare to remain in thebank or be used for sonmc other purpose, be-cause inl the second Year it wrill certainly notble required. The reiry next clause providesfor excess profits. Where, theni, is the reasonfor striking a rate?

The 'Minliliter for 'Mines: Ft is to provide aguarantee to the bondholders.

Iloji. WV. C. ANG WIN Only in, the ease ofa loss should a rate he struck. It mightmean the interest on £250,000 lying in thehank for a considerable time.

The Minister for Mines: No, because if themoney is not required, the rate will not hestruck in the second year.

Hion. AV. C. ANOWlIN: But they will havethe rate and the profits also for the first yearlying in the bank. I have seen an instance ofthlis in practice. It is a most unfair wily ofdealing with a public undertaking.

The Minister for Mfines: For years youhave advocated that the whole of the corn-naunity should pay its share of the cost ofSuch undertaking.

Hon. WV. C. ANOWIN: But there is nonecessity for the community to pay twice forthle saume thing in one year.

Clause put and passed.(Clouses 31) to as-agreed to.Clause .3-Powers of council over lands:Hion. WV. C. ANOWIfN: I ask that thle col-

si'leration of this clause be postponed. Iwish to dleal with the powre of sale of en-lownient lands. I intend if possible to per-suade the Committee not to agree tp tile saleof endowment lands. if T am not sucecessfulin that I will have anl amendment drafted toprovide that any money from the sale of en-clownent lands shall he put in trust with theTreasurer, to he retained as an endowment forall tinme. Under thle clause the council haspower to sell or lease lands which have beengiven by thle C;overaunlet to the city asl ell-,luwment lands for the benefit of the rate-p.ayers of Perth for oil time. The clause willh'ke away the rights of the people.

The Minister for 'Mines: No, it adds totheir rights.

ion. WV. c. ANGVIN : Nothing of thesort; their rights are to he sold. [f themoney reallised from the sale of the land isspent, the endowment is lost. Many years agothe G'overnm~ent thought it advisable to en.dow thle city with land for the benefit offluture generations. The present Government,who cannot see so far ahead, hare decidedto deprive future generations of this bene-fit.

Mr. Smith: What is the value of the en-dotrotent lands?

Holl. AV. C. ANGWXN: A value which isincreasing every year. If we give the citycouncil powter to sell, the proceeds shouldhe invested for the benefit of future genera-tions.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The flea-her for North-East Fremantle wants allthe proceeds from endowmnent lands to beinvested in trust to form a perpetual sourceof income. That at first sight appears veryreasonable, but when we consider the natureof the endowment lands and the amount re-quired to be expended before those landswill be worth anything, the reasonablenessof the suggestion. vanishes. The money fromthe sale of these lands is to be applied tothe repayment of actual sums borrowed toinmprove what is now worthless land.

lion. WV. C. ANOWVIN: As the AttorneyGeneral will not agree to postpone the clause,I mon., an amendment-

That in line 2 of Suheclanse I after''lands'' the following words be inserted:-"'except the area of land granted as anlendowment for the city of Perth.''The Mlinister for Mfines: Under this clause

the city council cannot sell without the per-mission of the Governor in Council.

The Attorney General: I do not know whyyou wish to restrict the powers which thecity council already have.

Houn. WV. C. ANOWINX: Members appearto he considering the question from the stand-point of Perth versus Flremantle. It showshow narrow-minded theyv are. Tile Coin-inittele will he acting wrongly if they allowthle city council to sell land which was given!is ant endowrmnent for ever, It was nleverintended that any public body should beahle to sell such land. Take the land grantedas an endowment for education.

.ir. Smith: What nse is being ade ofit?

lion. WV. C. AN G WIN: None at present,but the value is increasing year by year.

Air. Smith: It is only a paper value.in. WV. C. ANOIE: These endowments

were granted by men of foresight, but themember for North Perth desires to robfuture generations of the benefit of theseendowments.

Mr. Smith: I wish to turn these lands toaccount.

Hon. AV. C. ANGAWIN: Yes, to benefit thepresent generation. Mlembers on the Gov-ernment side do not care a hang about thefuture.

The Minister for Mines: You would nottake away ally rights which the city councilenjoy at preseat.

Hon. W. 4'. ANGW[N.: They hare noiirhts at present.

The Attorney Gencreral: They have.lion. AV. C. ANOWIN": Does the Attorney

General wish tue to believe that those whogranted these endowment landsq intendedthem. toa be sold?

1091

109! [ASSEMBLY.]

The Attorney General: I do not think theywould be such idiots as to put in those wordsif they meant nothing.

Hon. W. C. ANOWIN: What is the mean-ing of the word ''endowment"?

The Minister for Mines: You might makean endowment straight out.

HOn. W. C. ANGWIN: Was it ever in-tended that the Unilversity endowmient landsshould be soldl

The Minister for Mines: Yes.'Hon. W. C. ANOWIN: Nothing of the

kind was ever intended. If this permissionis given, the principle must be extended toendowment lands throughout the State.There is 2,000 acres at Fremantle.

Mr. Foley: Under similar conditions?Hon. W. C. ANGWJN: Under better con-

ditions. We are not justified in giving thecity council power to sell these lands forthe purpose of effecting certain improve-ments, a large percentage of which will pro-bably be on lands other than these. I be-lieve in the principle of land endowment.It would be an excellent thing if more ofour local authorities, our charitable institu-tions and so forth, were possessed of areasof endowment lands in various parts of theState. I trust the Attorney General willaccept this amendment. -

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I post-poned the consideration of this Bill in orderthat the hon, member might be here to dis-cuss it. I have before me a copy of thecertificate of title, which the hion. membercan verify to-morrow. It is idle to say thatthe city council have no power to sellthese endowment lands. This document cer-tifies that the city of Perth are the soleproprietors of this land, containing about2,151 acres, and that it is to be held as anendowment in perpetuity for the use andbenefit of the said city, upon the followingconditions:- That the grantee shall not sellor convey the fee simple or offer any lesserestate or lease for any term exceeding 99years the said land or any part thereof,without the consent in writing of our Statefirst obtained. Does the hon. member saythat these words, expressly put into a certifi-rate of title, mean nothing?

Hon. W. C. Angwvin: What do the otherwords mean?

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Words arefrequently found in legal documents whichare subsequently qualified. The hon. memberby his amendment desires Parliament to takeaway from the city of Perth a right that itpossesses tinder this certificate of title. Wesimply ask that the proceeds of the saleof this land be vested in a sinking fund, orfailing that, if there is any surplus, that ithr vested in a trust fund by way of perpet-imal endowment to the city of Perth. I amopposed to the amendment.

H~on. WV. C. ANO1WI'N: -No Governmentwouil give the city council power to sell theirendowment lands unless the money derivedfrom the gale were held in trust for the biene-

fit of future generations of citizens of Perth.At all events, no honest Government woulddo such a thing. I have known. of manythings having been done in politics in orderto save seats, but they were not done honestlyfrom a political point of view. The wordingof the certificate of title shows that the inten-tion of those who left this endowment wasthat the land should be held by the city ofPerth in perpetuity. It may be necessaryto sell the land under certain conditions, butthe principle of the endowment should notbe lost. What right have the city council tosell this land, and with the money buildtramways, roads, parks, gardens, places ofamusement and other things so that theState at large mnay get the benefit? Was thatthe intention of those people who made thisendowmt'ent!

The Attorney Gleneral: I have no hesita-tion in saying that it was tlheir intention.

Hon. W. C. ANOWIN: The city councilhave got the Attorney General by the wool.

The Attorney General: The hon. memberMUSt withdlraw that.

Hron. W, CQ ANGWIN: I withdraw the re-mark. It was not intended as an insult. Iasked, on mny retuirn to the State, that aclause should be drafted to deal with thisquestion, and was informed that there wasIa time in which to do it for to-night'ssitting. It is for that reason I have askedthat the consideration of the clause shouldbe postponed.

Hlon. P. COLLIER:- In the abrence of acase being put up by the representatives ofthe citizens of Perth at the pr~sent time, Tfeel bound to supplement the remarks of themember for 'North-East F'remantle. It istrue that the council has power to sell theland, provided they get the consent of theGovernor in Council, but T do not know ofany instance where the consent of the Gov-ernor has been given for the sale of any en-dowtnent land.

The Premier: There is very little endow-inent land available in the State.

Hon. P. COLLTER: Undoubtedly the in-tention was to preserve to the citizens of theState the benefits accruing from these es-tates for all time. Circumstances mightarise when it would be good business to sellendowment land, and in these eircumnstancesthe proposal of the member for North-EastFremuantle is a good one. 13y selling theselands, the ratepayers at the present timemight receive the benefits which it was in-tended should be preserved for the rate-payers of 10 or 20 years hence.

'Mr. Smith: Or to those of 500 year?hence, and what have they done for us thatwe should contemplate such- an action!

Hion. P. C'OLLIER: I have heard it askefd,what has posterity drone for the present.Each generation has responsibilities to in.herit, and as we inherit those of the genera-tion before us, so the generation romingafter us will inherit our responsibilities. Tthink it would be hard to apportion theIdanc. However, to get lbai-k to tlhe clause

1092

(19 OCTOBER, 1920.] 1093

I think that the proposal of the member forNorth-East Fremantle is a fair one andshould be adopted by the Committee.

Mr. FOLEY: The amendment suggestediwv the member for Northi-East; Fremantleseeks to take away powers whichk the citycouncil have at the present time regardingtheir endowment lands. There is no analogyto be drawn between the University endow-ment lands and the city of Perth endowmentlands. In the first instance, the Universityis specifically prohibited from selling any ofits land and only has power to leas4 withthe consent of the Governor in Council. Inthe case of the city council, a specific provi-sion was inserted when the land was madeavailable, and it is clearly set out in the Actdealing with the matter. The people whoput in the words ''lease, sell or convey infee simple'' inserted them for a purpose.They are not waste words and they showclearly that the present position was con-templated. The Attorney General's amend-ment proposes that, should a sale he effected,the money shall be spent in a certain manner.

Hion. W. C. Angwin: That applies to theLime Kilns estate. I am not concerned aboutthat. I ami concerned about the endowmentlands.

Mr. FOLEY: If the amendment is agreedto, the Government will have the use of thatmoney for a certain time, whether by way ofsinking fund or otherwise, but the peoplewill have the knowledge that the money fromthe sale will be put to the best use in in.i-

. proving these lands. The city council willhave the endowment for all tinie. If, as I

-say, there is specific provision for the saleof these lands, it is no good suggesting thatthese words were not meant by those respon-sible for the Act in the first instance.

Ion. WV. C. AINGWIN: I do not say that,but I do say that the sale might be compul-sory. Suppose the endowment lands werenear the Fremantle harbour. They mightthen he compelled to sell. The proceedswould he kept in perpetuity.

Mr. FOLEY: I ask the Committee to sup-port tho Attorney General in his desire togive effect to what those who made the en-dowment lands available, intended to applyshould an occasion such as this arise.

Amendment put and negatived.The ATTORNEY GENERAL: I move an

amendment-That in Subelause 2 the words "in

such manner and for such purpose as thecouncil may from time to time determine,and until otherwise determined shall beaccumulated'' be struck out.

In the event of this amendment being car-ried, I propose to move that ''in thedevelopment of the said lands and" beinsetted in lieu of the words struck out, andalso that the following be added to thesubelause: "and the surplus (if any) shallbe invested in such securities as trusteesare by law authorised to invest trustfunds.') I fully realise the necessity for

preventing indiscriminate expenditure ofthe proceeds of any land sold in this way,and I think it is only reasonable to securethat such proceeds are invested in the im-provement of the property itself, therebyenhancing its value, or else in trust funds.If lion, members desire to consider thesufficiency of what I propose, I am preparedto report progress.

Hon. WV. C. ANOWIN: I repeat that Ionly wish to deal with the endowmentlands, and that I am not concerned at allwith the other lands of the Perth CityCouncil. As regards the Lime Kiln estate,for instance, I do not object to the PerthCity Council endeavouring to get the rate-payers' money back, if they can. But Imaintain that the endowment lands weregiven to the citizens of Porth in perpetuity,and that if ever the municipality is comn-pelled to ask for permission to sell thoselands, say with a view to the constructionof public works, the funds so derived shouldbe invested for the benefit of the citizensof Perth in perpetuity, in the same way asthe lands were granted. We have no rightto take away these lands, or their value,from the future citizens of Perth.

Progress reported.

BILL-TREASURY BONDSDEFICIENCY.

Second Reading.TIhe PREMIER (lion. J. Mitchell-Nor-

than.) [10.471 in moving the second read-ing said: This Bill has made an annualappearance for some years past. The firstAct p~roviding for the funding of the deficitwas introduced some years ago. Last year'sdeficit amounted to £668,224. -; proposeunder this Pill to ask for authority to raise£E690,000 in order that this deficit may befunded. Hon.' members are aware thatthere are always expenses in connectionwith the flotation of a loan. If this Billpasses, Parliament will have authorised thefunding, up to the 30th June last, of deficitstotalling £4,086,705, being the actual total ofthe deficits up to the 30th June last.The expenses so far incurred in connectionwith funding the deficits amount to £86,852.

Hon. P. Collier: The expenses?The PREMIER: Yes, in connection With

the raising of loans to fund the deficit. Theamount represents about three per cent.,which is not an unusual charge, but justabout the average charge. I do not expectthat we shall raise this loan more cheaplythan any other. The total amount of deficitremaining to be funded is £1,279,051. Wehave not raised the money to fund thisportion of the deficit, because so far it hasnot been found necessary to do so. Wehave had money in hand, and the deficit hasbeen taken out of general revenue and outof loan moneys. Bonds have not actuallybeen issued specially to cover this portion

1094 [ASSEMBLY.]

of the deficit, although we bave authorityto issue them, and should of course issuethem if it were necessary to raise themoney. As a matter of fact, we have to-day a considerable slim of money in band;and, notwithstanding that the House willp~robably pass the Bill I an, now introducing,it nay riot be necessary for us to raise theamount for some little time. I do not knowthat I canl say very much that will informholl. members as to the reason for this Bill,when everybody knows-

Hlon. P. Oollier:.That it is a hardy annual.

The PREMIER :Yes, and that wehave had a deficit for somec years past.I should like to again point out that, n1otwithstanding, our deficit of £U68,000 hIstyear, our sinking fund itnereased hr£694,000. The othter day some rep~resenta-thve mcli from South A ustralia said to mle,'"You are in a pretty bad wa 'y, are you not!"'I said, ''We are not ats badly off as you are,because we have set aside a considerableamount with which to mneet our obligations."They duly expressed surprise, and were palp-ably impressed by the figures which I puthcfore thlem. Whlet. I told then, that we hadset aside by way of siniking fund] nmore titanhadl all the rest of Australia together, theysaid they had never heard of it before.

lon. P. Collier: A few years back titeynever heard of it frlout the quarter fronwhxich they are hearing of it now. The sink-ing fund has been given a good deal of pro-ininenee of late years.

Hon. iN C. Angwin: Only' last week Itold thteml over there thle samle a., vol did.

The PREMIEJR: Then you told then, theright thing. At atty rate, I point out thatthis is so. If we hall not set aside this sink-ing fund our deficit would be anl enormousone for 320,0010 people to face.

lin. P. Collier. Bitt our sinking fund finsbeen gathtered ovr very tmanly years, where-as our deficit is of relatively, recent origin.

The PREMIER: But our sinking fundaccumulilated since 1911 is mutch greater thanthe deficit incurred in the same period.

Hon.. P. Collier: 'No fear!The PREMIER: Yes, the increase in our

sinking fund since 1911 represents £4,291,(000whereas the deficit since 1911 represeitts£,4,100,000. Wlhilst we htave ileen bulildingup a deficit of £4,100,000, our sinking fund,including interest on the tmoney investetd,has totalled £4,293,000 or £193,000 more thanthe deficit. That is the position. We Cangather sonte little comtfort front that, al-though uf course it would have beena lintch

better if we had not had any deficit. I hiavepointed out more thant once tilis session thatour borrowed mloney has been well investedand that posterity will be well served by- theact, of the past U4overnments.

Hon. P. Collier: But the sinkintg fund isino stinking fund at all, beau~se it has bieetswamtpedl h thle discrepancy beitween revpeliand expenditure.

Tile PREMIER: Except titat it has beenset aside to pay off sptecial deblts and is avail-able for that purpose. As a matter of fact,our borrowed money is invce'tcl in facilities,such as railways and hiarlhours, which whenour population increases, wi lie worth, notwhat they are to day, but any tinmes tmore.We could itot build the railways ire - sesto-dlay at twice the amiount they haive cost;we certainly could not build our r-ailwaysand harboutrs a,,d equtip them for mtuich lessthan thle total amntt of otlr boi-rowedmoney.

]ln P. Collier: In other words, our as-Sets are greater thanx our liabilities.

The PREMIER: Yes, altd the assets "'illIicrease with the population. .For the firstth~ree mnths of this rear the position Itasbeet, very it uch better than it was duinrgthle fir-st three mouathes of ]last year, abot£40,000 per mtonth better. We were down£120,000 per month for the first three monthsof last year, and we were £.6010,000 short forthle first six months of last year. This yearthe position is very muchi better thant that.'rTe miontly retunms do not disclose the po-sition.

Bll. P. Collier-: They certainly doe not.

The PREMAIER: Because we pay our in-terest montht by month, whereas we collectour interest only by the half Tear; amtd aswe invest mtore and niore money each week,there is still a greater amtoutnt of interestto collect. We have about eight millionpounds lent to individuals, moitey onl whiehwe collect interest. The leatler of the Op-positioin is quite right whietn lie says thtat themionthly statetment does not disclose the po-sitiotn, because whilst we provide fur every-thing that we have to meet, includling in-teiest an.d sinking fund, mnonth, by nmotl,, wvedo not take into niecoufit tile a iiottiit whichwe collect half yearly. However, it is sowell known that there was a deficit last year,and so easily understood that it bus to hefunded, that I suppose it is htardly necessary'for me, to say any muore just now. I move-

That the Bill, be nowr read ai secittitimte.

Mr. ANGELO (GaseomnIe) 110.571: fshould like to know front thle 1'reiicr if,wheii advertising these Treasury hiotit, it isprovided that they are not subject to (coin-rnonwealtit taxation.

The l'renaier: No, they are not.

Mr. ANGELO: But are subject to Statetaxation.

The PREMIER. N o.

Qulcution put and piassed.

Bill read a second time.

In commnittee, et,-.ll Imicasell through Com~mittee -itletim

debiate, reported without antentdment anadthme report adopted.

(19 OCTOBER, 1920.] 19

ILL-HEALTH ACT CONTINUATION.

Second Reading.

The COLONJAL SECRETARY (Hlon. F,T. llroun-Beverley) [21.1] in moving thesevond reading said: The object of this BiUlis to continue the operation of Section 256of the Health Act Amendment Act, which-a-r passed two years ago. This sectiondeals with venereal disease. I do not thinktheic Is any need to deal with the questionat length, because this is the third occasionoil whicht it has been before the House. TheAvt provided that the Commissioner coaldtake steps only on receipt of a signed state-inent, which he hadl reason to believe wascorrect, alleging that some person was in-feeted with venereal disease. The operationof that section was limited to one year.This requirement interfered withi the takingof action in several cases which came to theknowledge of the Commuissioner. Duringlast session an amending measure warfs passedwhich continued the operation of the sectiontill the 31st December, 1920. The presentBill will continue the operatioa of this sec-tion for a further 12 months.

Hon. P. Collier: This 'Bill will only con-tinue the existing provision. for anotheryear?

The COLONXIAL SECRETARY: Yes.Since the legislation was first passed, about40 cases have been dealt with under Section2.56. Of these cases five were lost sight of;.six wvcre able to produce evidence that theywere not infected, and in two cases the con-clusion was unsatisfactory, because, a,-though a bacteriological examination. gavenegative results, there was still suspicionthat infection may have been present. Inthe remaining eases the persons aganstti-Iorn the allegatins were made were in-fected and they were placed under treat-ment. Of the 40 cases, seven came undernotice during the last 12 months. One otthese, is still pending; in one case a bacterio-logical examination of a specimen indicated]a negative result; the other cases have re-ceived treatment. There has been no coui-plaint of li~rdship regardingr the operationof this provision, .and I ask the House toagree to its continuation till the 31st De-emnber, 1921. 1 move-

That the Bill be now read a secondtime.Question put and passed.Bill read a second time.

In Committee.Mr. Foley in the Chair; the Colonial Sec-

retary in charge of the Bill.clause i-agreed to.Clause 2-Continuation temporarily ot

Section 256:Ron. WV. C. ANG WIN: The clause refers

to words in Section 256 of the Act, which,words are printed in italics. 'What are thosewords?

The COLOINIAL SECRETARY: Thewords deal with signed statements contain-ing information respecting persons supposedto be suffering from venereal disease. Underthe measure passed last year it was providedthat the Commissioner could take action onverbal statenments instead of on signedstatements.

HEon. P. COLLIER: Does the latter por-tion of the clause mecan that these provisionswill now be permanently enacted in theHealth Act? From may reading of the clauseit will not again be necessary to introduce acoatiauation Bill. I think the object origin-ally was to continue the measure front yearto year so that, after the experience of anumber of years, we could decide whetherthis provision should be permanently en-acted. I do not want this provision to bepermnaneatly enacted by the passing of this]Bill unless members clearly understand whatthey are doing.

The Colonial Secretary: I was informed itwas only a continuation Bill.

Ron. P. COLLIER: Why is it not on ailfours with the continuation Bill passed lastyvear?

The CHAIRMAN: The title of the Bill is"For an Act to continue the operation ofthe Temporary Pr-ovisions of Section 250 ofthe Health Act, 1911-19.'' Standing Order260 says--

No clause shall be inserted ilL any suchd1raft foreign to the title of the Bill, andif any such clause be afterwards intro-duced, the title shall be altered accord-ingly.

Standing Order 261 says-- Every Bill not prepared pursuant to theorder of leave, or according to the -Rulesand Orders of the House, shall be orderedto be withdrawn.

The title of the ]Bill is for an Act to con-tinue and not to amiend, and T think, there-

-fore, the Bill must be withdrawn.The ATTORNEY GENERAL: Time title

of the Bill is for an Act to continue tl*operation of the temporary provisions ofSection 2.56 of the Health Act, 191 1-19.

The CILAIRMAN: The words in the Bill"'And from and after that date the wordsprinted in italics in the said Section 236shall be repealed, and the provisions of thatsctioii printed in erased type shall againcome into operation"' in may opinion consti-tute ami amendment.

The ATTOR'NEY GE'NERAL: The team-porary provisions referred to in the Bill arethese-whenever the Commissioner has rea-son to believe that any person is sufferingfrom venereal disease. It is simply desiredby the Bill to contiue the temporary provi-sions. They have only been in force for twoYears. They remained up to a certain pointund last year were continued for 12 umouths,and we desire to continue them for another12 months. Two years ago there was a con-troversy as to whether the Commniss-ioner ofHealth could notify a person to come uip for

1095

IJ96(COUNCIL.]

examination without having a signed state-Ment. It was Contended strongly that if thesigned statement were done away with allkinds of abuses would come about. To getOver tile difficulty it was arranged that therepeal -of these words about the signedstatement should only continue in force for12 months. It is now desired to continue thesano amendment until 31st December, 1921.Then at the end of December, 1921, unlessthe Act be further continued, the words''Whenever the Commissioner has reason tobelieve that any person is suffering fromany venereal" come out and thle wordswhich were in the original section "WAhen-ever thle Commissioner has received aSigned statement in which shalt be set forththe full name and address of the informant,stating that any person is suffering fronvenerceai disease, and whenever the Coin-missioner has reason to believe that suchperson is suffering from such'' are auto-matically restored.

Hon. P. COLLIER: If the Bill is merelyto continue the Act for the next twelvemonths, why does it differ in the wordingfrom the continuation Bill of last year?

The Minister for Mines: If and duringthe next twelve mouths, no Bill is intro-duced, the Act goes back automatically tothe signed statement.

Hon. P. COLLIER: If no continuationBill1 comes forward next year, we go backto the signed statement about which thefight was waged last yearl

The Minister for 'Mines: That is right.Hon. P. COLLIER: That being the posi-

tion, I do not raise any objection to themeasure as it stands.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL: The lnstsection of the Act last year provides thatall copies of the Health Act 1911 shall beprinted under the supervision of thc Clerkof Parliaments as amended by any amend-ing statutes at that time in force, and allnecessary references to such statntes shallbe nmade in thle mnargin. That is why thereis a difference in the wording of this Bill,compared with lost year's continuationmeasure. If this Act is to continue fortwelve months, then the signed statementis done away with for that twelve months.Unless a Bill be introduced next year tofurther continue the operations of the Act,then the old Act comes into force and thesigned statement is restored.

Clause put and passed.-Title--agreed to.'Bill reported without amendment, and the

report adopted.

Routse adjourned at 11.35 p-nm. -

legislative council.Wfednesday, 20th October, 19(0.

Pa pers: Herne ]fill Estate . ..Bills Margarine Manufacture, Is.

Roads Closure, 3a., passed ..Coroners, 2n.......... ...Treasury Bonds Deficiecy, Is.Health Act Continuation, Is.Baudlng Societies, Coin.

Motion: MunecpalItles Act, to amend

The PRESIDENT took theip.ii., and read~ pira;-rS.

.1007

.. .. 1097

.. .. 1105

.. .. 1105

.110

.1101

Chair at 4.3 a

PAIPERS-]IERNE 'TTLL, ESTATE.HTon. J1. CORNELL (South) [4.32):. I

imove--

That all files relating to existing andpas5t arrangements between the Governmentand the 'Ugly Men's Association in rela-tion to the Her no Hill Estate be laid otthe Table of the House.

Tile IlNISTER3 FOR EDUCATION(Hon. H. P. Colebatch-East) [4.33): 1nmore-

That the debate be adjourned till the,next sitting of the House.

I must have an opportunity to look into thematter.

lRon. J. COR1NELL (South) [4.34]: 'M rPresident, this is-

The PRESIDENT: The hon. member can-not speak to a niotion for adjournment.

Hon. .1. Cornell: It is something extra-ordlinary to move the adjounment on amnotion like that.

Motion put and a division taken with thefollowing result:---

AyesNoes

-. .- 92

'Majority for --

Hon.HOD.Hon.Hon.Hon.

.. 7

AYs.H. P. Colebatch I-on. J. J. HolmesJ. E. flodd Hon. A. SandersonJ. Duffel] Hon.Slr-E.H.WittenoorflJ. Ewing Hon. J. MillsE. H. Hlarris I(Teller,)

Hon. F. A. BalglinNOS.

no.J. CornellHI n {Teler.)

Motion thus passed.

BYLL-S ALE OF MARGARINE.Introduced by the Miaister for Educatioir

(for the Honorary Minister) and read a firsttime.

1096