bellerose cross-examination transcript

8/10/2019 Bellerose Cross-Examination Transcript

1/28

GILLESPIEREPORTINGSERVICES, ADivisionof709387OntarioInc.,200130SlaterSt. OttawaOntario K1P6E2

Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

Exami nat i on No. 14- 0775 Cour t Fi l e No. A- 218- 14

FEDERAL COURT OF APPEAL

B E T W E E N:

DR. GABOR LUKACS

APPLI CANT

- and

CANADI AN TRANSPORTATI ON AGENCY

RESPONDENT

**********************

CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON OF PATRI CE BELLEROSE ON HER AFFI DAVI T

SWORN J ULY 29, 2014, pur suant t o an appoi nt ment made onconsent of t he par t i es, t o be r epor t ed by Gi l l espi e

Repor t i ng Ser vi ces, on t he 21st day of August , 2014,

commenci ng at t he hour of 10: 29 i n t he f orenoon.

**********************

APPEARANCES:

Dr . Gabor Lukacs, f or t he Appl i cant

Mr . Si mon- Pi er r e Lessar d, f or t he Respondent

Thi s Cr oss - Exami nat i on was di gi t al l y r ecor ded by Gi l l espi e

Repor t i ng Ser vi ces at Ot t awa, Ont ar i o, havi ng been dul y appoi nt ed

f or t he pur pose.


2/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

( i )

INDEX

NAME OF WI TNESS: PATRI CE BELLEROSE

CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON BY: DR. GABOR LUKACS

NUMBER OF PAGES: 2 THROUGH TO AND I NCLUDI NG 27

ADVISEMENTS, OBJECTIONS & UNDERTAKINGS

*O* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5, 6, 7, 16, 23

EXHIBITS

EXHIBIT NO. 1: Af f i davi t of Pat r i ce Bel l er ose dat ed J ul y 29, 2014

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2

EXHIBIT NO. 2: Di r ect i on t o At t end dat ed August 8, 2014 . . . . . . . . 2

EXHIBIT NO. 3: At t achment t o t he emai l dat ed March 19, 2014 12: 58PM, f r om Pat r i ce Bel l er ose t o Dr . Gabor Lukacs, at t achment121 pages. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10

EXHIBIT NO. 4: Canadi an Transpor t at i on Agency General Rul es, Rul eNo. 23. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21

DATE TRANSCRI PT ORDERED: August 21, 2014

DATE TRANSCRI PT COMPLETED: August 25, 2014


3/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

2

PATRICE BELLEROSE, SWORN:1

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. GABOR LUKACS:2

1. Q. Ms. Bel l er ose, I under st and t hat on J ul y 29,3

2014, you swor e an af f i davi t .4

A. Yes.5

DR. LUKACS: Let s mar k t hat Af f i davi t as Exhi bi t6

1.7

EXHIBIT NO. 1: Af f i davi t of Pat r i ce Bel l er ose8

dat ed J ul y 29, 20149

DR. LUKACS:10

2. Q. And I under st and t hat you r ecei ved t he11

Di r ect i on t o At t end dat ed August 8, 2014.12

A. That i s cor r ect.13

DR. LUKACS: Let s mar k i t as Exhi bi t 2.14EXHIBIT NO. 2: Di r ect i on t o At t end dat ed August 8,15

201416

DR. LUKACS:17

3. Q. For how l ong have you been worki ng wi t h t he18

Canadi an Transpor t at i on Agency and i n what r ol es?19

A. I have been worki ng wi t h t he Canadi an20

Tr anspor t at i on Agency f or j ust about si x years and my21

i ni t i al posi t i on was t he manager of r ecor d servi ces and22

access t o i nf or mat i on and pr i vacy co- or di nat or f or t he23

Agency i ni t i al l y f or t he f i r st one t o t wo year s. I was24

t he act i ng di r ect or of t he i nf or mat i on ser vi ces25


4/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

3

di r ect or at e f or t hr ee and a hal f year s and I have r ecent l y1

been changed t o a sl i ght l y di f f er ent posi t i on as t he2

seni or manager of i nf or mat i on servi ces but t hat agai n i s3

supposed t o be changi ng shor t l y. Ther e i s goi ng t o be4

anot her r eor gani zat i on of t he Agency.5

4. Q. I n your cur r ent r ol e what ar e your6

respons i bi l i t i es?7

A. I am r esponsi bl e f or al l r ecor ds, r ecor d8

keepi ng at t he Agency, r et ent i on, di sposi t i ons, keepi ng9

t he f i l es, so i nf or mat i on management , access t o10

i nf or mat i on and mai l ser vi ces.11

5. Q. So when you say r ecor ds can you el aborate12

what you mean by r ecor ds i n t hat cont ext ?13

A. Al l r ecor ds r el at i ng t o t he Agency, bot h14t r ansi t or y and of f i ci al r ecor ds.15

6. Q. So f or exampl e, when t he Agency orders paper16

woul d t hat al so be a r ecor d t hat you woul d be handl i ng?17

A. I f we - - t he or der f or t he paper ?18

7. Q. Yes, t he i nvoi ce and al l t hose t hi ngs, ar e19

t hose recor ds i n t hi s sense?20

A. I t depends. Pr obabl y f or a per i od of t i me we21

have t o have a recor d of an i nvoi ce, sur e.22

8. Q. And al so submi ssi ons of par t i es and23

pr oceedi ngs bef ore the Agency ar e recor ds?24

A. Case f i l es ar e r ecor ds of t he Agency, yes.25


5/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

4

9. Q. Okay. I n your cur r ent posi t i on can you1

descr i be t o me t he chai n of command, who i s your i mmedi at e2

super vi sor , super i or or whom do you r epor t ?3

A. Ri ght now I r epor t t o t he di r ect or of4

i nf or mat i on ser vi ces who t he cur r ent act i ng i s Chr i st i ne5

Gur et t e. She r epor t s t o t he act i ng di r ect or of6

communi cat i ons and i nf ormat i on ser vi ces br anch whi ch i s7

J acquel i ne Banni st er who r epor t s di r ect l y t o t he chai r man.8

10. Q. J ust t o conf i r m, ar e you cur r ent l y or have you9

ever been a member of t he Canadi an Tr anspor t at i on Agency?10

A. Of t he whi ch?11

11. Q. Of t he Canadi an Transpor t at i on Agency. Have12

you been a member ?13

A. No.1412. Q. I n car r yi ng out your dut i es as manager of15

r ecor d servi ces and access t o i nf or mat i on and pr i vacy ar e16

you r equi r ed t o f ol l ow t he deci si ons, r ul es and pol i ci es17

made by t he Agency?18

A. Yes.19

13. Q. Now l et s l ook at Exhi bi t A t o your Af f i davi t .20

Do you have i t i n f r ont of you?21

A. Exhi bi t A t o my Af f i davi t ?22

14. Q. Yes.23

A. Yes.24

15. Q. Thi s i s an emai l dat ed Febr uar y 14t h, 201425


6/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

5

f r om mysel f t o t he secr et ar y of t he Agency, cor r ect ?1

A. Yes.2

16. Q. Were you aware when you r ecei ved t hi s t hat i t3

expl i ci t l y makes r ef er ence t o t he f act t hat t he r equest i s4

made pur suant t o sect i on 2( b) of t he Char t er ?5

A. Yes.6

17. Q. Di d you under st and t he meani ng of a r equest7

pur suant t o sect i on 2( b) of t he Char t er ?8

A. Yes.9

18. Q. What does i t mean?10

A. I t means t hat you were maki ng a r equest under11

t he Char t er , under your Char t er r i ght s, and any request s12

f or i nf or mat i on at t he Agency ar e t r eat ed as i n - - t hose13

t ypes of r equest s are t r eat ed as i nf or mal r equest s f or14i nf or mat i on.15

19. Q. What does sect i on 2( b) of t he Chart er mean t o16

you?17

MR. LESSARD: For t he r ecor d, I wi l l obj ect t o t he18

quest i on because - - wel l t her e i s an i ssue of r el evance19

but al so because you ar e aski ng the opi ni on t o t he20

wi t ness. However Madam Bel l er ose wi l l answer subj ect t o21

t he r i ght t o have t he pr opr i et y of t he quest i on det er mi ned22

by t he cour t at a l at er dat e. *23

DR. LUKACS: Sur e.24

THE WI TNESS: Okay so my under st andi ng i s t hat you25


7/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

6

were maki ng a r equest under t he Char t er whi ch you were1

sayi ng your Char t er r i ght s al l owed you t o request t he2

document s as t hey were part of t he open cour t pr i nci pl e3

and wer e subj ect - - i t was under your Char t er r i ght s as4

opposed t o maki ng a f ormal access t o i nf ormat i on r equest .5

DR. LUKACS:6

20. Q. Di d you make any i nqui r y t o anybody at t he7

Agency as t o t he meani ng of a request pur suant t o sect i on8

2( b) of t he Char t er ?9

A. Wel l , we di scussed your r equest wi t h t he10

secret ar y and l egal ser vi ces.11

MR. LESSARD: I wi l l obj ect because i t i s12

sol i ci t or / cl i ent pr i vi l ege wi t h r espect t o di scussi ons13

wi t h l egal ser vi ces and - - l i ke f or t he r est of t he14quest i on I don t r eal l y have a pr obl em wi t h i t . *15

THE WI TNESS: So we di scussed t he r equest and i t16

was det er mi ned that we woul d pr oceed, even t hough you had17

i ndi cat ed t hat i t was under sect i on 2( b) of t he Char t er ,18

t hat we woul d pr oceed as a normal r equest f or i nf ormat i on19

as we nor mal l y recei ve f or ot her case f i l es t hr oughout t he20

Agency. We r egul ar l y r ecei ve t hem f r om ot her appl i cant s21

on a dai l y basi s.22

DR. LUKACS:23

21. Q. Di d you r ecei ve any i nst r uct i ons f r om your24

super i ors about how t o pr ocess such a r equest pur suant t o25


8/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

7

sect i on 2( b) of t he Char t er ?1

A. Al l r equest s f or i nf or mat i on ar e pr ocessed2

t hr ough our of f i ce i n a st andar d f ashi on; ei t her t hey ar e3

f or mal r equest s under t he Access t o I nf or mat i on Act or4

t hey ar e i nf or mal . Gener al l y anybody aski ng f or5

i nf or mat i on r egar di ng a case f i l e t hat i s ongoi ng at t he6

Agency i s consi dered an i nf ormal r equest because t he7

document s ar e par t of t he publ i c r ecor d.8

22. Q. So do you agr ee wi t h me t hat Exhi bi t A t o your9

Af f i davi t was not a request made pur suant t o t he Access t o10

I nf or mat i on Act ?11

MR. LESSARD: I wi l l obj ect f or t he r ecor d agai n12

because i n t hi s case i t i s not appr opr i at e i n t hi s t ype of13

exami nat i on t o ask f or admi ssi ons f r om a wi t ness. She i s14her e as a wi t ness and not as a par t y. However Madame15

Bel l er ose wi l l answer subj ect t o t he r i ght t o have t he16

pr opr i et y of t he quest i on det er mi ned by t he cour t at a17

l at er dat e. *18

THE WI TNESS: I t was not consi der ed a f or mal19

r equest under t he Access t o I nf or mat i on Act , no. I t di d20

not meet t he requi r ement s.21

DR. LUKACS:22

23. Q. So at sect i on 3 of your af f i davi t you say t hat23

t he r equest was t r eat ed as an i nf or mal access r equest .24

A. Yes.25


9/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

8

24. Q. Can you pl ease expl ai n exact l y what an1

i nf ormal access r equest means?2

A. I t means any r equest s f or gover nment r ecor ds3

t hat ar e not compl et ed f or mal l y under t he Access t o4

I nf or mat i on Act , meani ng i t must r equi r e t he $5 f ee. I t5

must have t he f ormal f orm t hat has been compl eted and6

si gned.7

25. Q. So i n t he case of t hi s r equest you d agr ee8

t hat no f ee was pai d.9

A. No f ee was pai d nor was the f or m f i l l ed out .10

26. Q. So t her e ar e t wo t ypes of r equest s. Ther e i s11

a f or mal r equest wher e t he f ee i s pai d and t he f or m i s12

compl eted and - -13

A. Cor r ect .1427. Q. - - t hose ar e t r eat ed as f or mal r equest s under15

t he Act .16

A. Cor r ect .17

28. Q. And t hen t her e ar e t he i nf or mal r equest s whi ch18

ar e ever ythi ng el se whi ch ar e not t r eat ed under t he Act ,19

correct?20

A. That ' s cor r ect.21

29. Q. I n par agr aph 3 of your Af f i davi t you say t hat22

t hi s r equest was t r eat ed and I am quot i ng, i n conf or mi t y23

wi t h t he di r ect i ve on t he admi ni st r at i on of t he Access t o24

I nf or mat i on Act .25


10/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

9

A. Yes.1

30. Q. I s Exhi bi t B t o your Af f i davi t t he di r ect i ve2

t hat you ar e r ef er r i ng t o?3

A. Yes.4

31. Q. Can you poi nt t o speci f i c pr ovi si ons of t he5

di r ect i ve t o whi ch t r eat i ng t he r equest as an i nf or mal6

access r equest conf orms?7

A. Sect i on 7. 4. 5.8

32. Q. Woul d you mi nd r eadi ng i t i nt o t he r ecor d j ust9

f or cl ar i t y?10

A. I nf or mal pr ocessi ng11

7. 4. 5 Det er mi ni ng whet her i t i s appr opr i at e t o12

pr ocess the r equest on an i nf or mal basi s. I f so,13

of f er i ng t he r equest er t he possi bi l i t y of t r eat i ng14t he request i nf or mal l y and expl ai ni ng t hat onl y15

f or mal r equest s ar e subj ect t o pr ovi si ons of t he16

Act.17

33. Q. So j ust f or cl ar i t y, accor di ng t o t hi s18

di r ect i ve an i nf or mal r equest f or access i s not subj ect t o19

t he pr ovi si ons of t he Act . I s t hat cor r ect ?20

A. An i nf or mal ?21

34. Q. Yes.22


35. Q. And di d you consul t t hi s di r ect i ve when you24

were deci di ng how t o t r eat my r equest ?25


11/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

1

A. No, because any r equest t hat we r ecei ve f or1

i nf or mat i on at t he Agency ot her t han f or mal r equest s ar e2

t r eat ed as i nf or mal access t o i nf or mat i on r equest s.3

36. Q. Let s move on. I asked you t o br i ng t he4

at t achment t o your March 19, 2014 emai l whi ch was5

r ef er enced i n par agr aph 4 of your Af f i davi t .6

A. Yes.7

37. Q. I bel i eve i t consi st s of 121 pages.8


DR. LUKACS: Let s mar k i t as Exhi bi t 3.10

EXHIBIT NO. 3: At t achment t o t he emai l dated March11

19, 2014 12: 58 PM, f r om Pat r i ce Bel l er ose to Dr .12

Gabor Lukacs, at t achment 121 pages.13

DR. LUKACS:1438. Q. Do you agr ee t hat t he f i l e cont ai ns no cl ai m15

f or conf i dent i al i t y by any of t he par t i es?16

A. Yes.17

39. Q. Do you agr ee t hat t he f i l e cont ai ns no18

det er mi nat i on by the Agency concer ni ng conf i dent i al19

t r eat ment of any of t he document s or port i ons of document s20

i n t he f i l e?21

A. Sor r y. Can you r epeat t hat ?22

40. Q. Do you agr ee t hat t he f i l e cont ai ns no23

det er mi nat i on by the Agency concer ni ng conf i dent i al24

t r eat ment of any of t he document s or por t i ons of25


12/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

1

documents?1

A. No.2

41. Q. You don t agr ee or . . . ?3

A. No. Ther e i s per sonal i nf or mat i on t hat i s4

cont ai ned i n t he document s t hat t he Agency determi nes as5

conf i dent i al .6

42. Q. Can you r ef er me t o - - My quest i on i s: I s7

t her e - - i n t he f i l e i s t her e a deci si on, or der or any8

ot her deci si on by t he Agency st at i ng t hat cer t ai n9

document s or port i ons of document wi l l be t r eat ed10

conf i dent i al l y?11

A. The Pr i vacy Act r equi r es t hat we r emove12

per sonal i nf or mat i on f r om Agency r ecor ds.13

43. Q. I am sor r y. I di dn t ask you about t he14Pr i vacy Act . I asked you about t hose 121 pages.15

A. Yes ther e cont ai ns per sonal i nf or mat i on i n16

t hose 121 pages.17

44. Q. That i s not my quest i on.18

MR. LESSARD: Can you pl ease ref ormul ate Dr .19

Lukacs?20

DR. LUKACS: Sur e.21

45. Q. Among t hose 121 pages i s t her e any document ,22

any di r ect i ve, deci si on, order made by a member or member s23

of t he Agency di r ect i ng t hat any of t hese document s be24

t r eat ed conf i dent i al l y?25


13/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

1

A. No.1

46. Q. Thank you. Do you agr ee wi t h me t hat some of2

t he pages wer e par t i al l y bl acked out ?3

A. Yes.4

47. Q. Who deci ded whi ch part s t o bl ack out ?5

A. Mysel f i n col l abor at i on wi t h var i ous st af f6

members of t he Agency.7

48. Q. How was i t deci ded whi ch part s t o bl ack out ?8

A. Per sonal i nf or mat i on was r emoved. That ' s al l .9

49. Q. Al l per sonal i nf or mat i on?10

A. No, onl y per sonal i nf or mat i on t hat was not11

di vul ged i n t he deci si on.12

50. Q. Under what l egal aut hor i t y was t he bl ackened13

out s per f ormed?14A. The Pr i vacy Act .15

51. Q. So under t he Pr i vacy Act ar e you t el l i ng me16

t hat you have t he aut hor i t y t o deci de whi ch par t s of an17

Agency adj udi cat i ve document wi l l be rel eased?18

A. Under t he Pr i vacy Act we ar e obl i gat ed t o19

r emove per sonal i nf or mat i on f r omgover nment r ecor ds pr i or20

t o r el easi ng t hem.21

52. Q. Now l et s l ook at page 75. I t was a l et t er22

f r om Ai r Canada t o t he secret ar y of t he Agency dat ed23

Oct ober 18t h, 2013, cor r ect ?24

A. Cor r ect .25


14/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

1

53. Q. Do you agr ee t hat t he name, t hat t he busi ness1

emai l addr ess and t he si gnat ur e of Ai r Canada s counsel2

wer e bl acked out on page 75?3

A. Yes.4

54. Q. Do you agr ee t hat t he name, t he busi ness emai l5

addr ess and t he si gnatur e of Ai r Canada s counsel were6

bl acked out t hr oughout t he f i l e?7

A. I woul d have t o l ook t hr ough t he pages - -8

55. Q. Take your t i me.9

A. - - t hr ough t he 121 pages t o ver i f y t hat but10

t hey shoul d be. I t s possi bl e we made an er r or but11

gener al l y yes t hey shoul d be.12

56. Q. So you say t hat t hose t hi ngs shoul d have been13

bl acked out i n your opi ni on?14A. Thei r cont act i nf or mat i on as wel l as t hei r15

emai l s.16

57. Q. Even t hough we are t al ki ng about work emai l17

address, not home ones?18

A. We have had var i ous consul t at i ons wi t h ai r19

i ndust r y and di f f er ent i ndust r i es at t he Agency and20

dependi ng on whet her a number i s publ i shed, a work number21

i s publ i shed or not , determi nes whether somet i mes t he22

i nf or mat i on i s publ i c or not . Somet i mes i nf or mat i on i s23

avai l abl e publ i cal l y; somet i mes i t ' s not . So i n t hose24

cases more of t en t han not we er r on t he si de of caut i on25


15/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

1

and i f t he number i sn t publ i shed - - somet i mes i t i s a1

gener al number , f or exampl e. I f i t i s a gener al l i ne2

obvi ousl y we i ncl ude t hat t ype of i nf or mat i on.3

58. Q. So j ust t o be cl ear , you made t hi s deci si on or4

deci ded what t hi ngs t o redact i n consul t at i on al so wi t h5

t he ai r l i ne i ndust r y. I s t hat cor r ect , what you j ust6

ear l i er sai d?7

A. On pr evi ous f i l es. That ' s not j ust ai r but8

di f f er ent t r anspor t at i on modes. They have i ndi cat ed t hat9

t her e ar e cert ai n number s t hat ar e pur posel y not publ i shed10

f or peopl e t hat wor k i n busi nesses and t hat t hey keep11

t hose - - t hat i nf or mat i on pr ot ect ed f or var i ous r easons12

and t hat t hey woul d l i ke i t not t o be di vul ged.13

59. Q. So i n t he case of Ai r Canada, Ai r Canada s14l awyer s, t he counsel act i ng on t he f i l e, t he name of t he15

counsel , t he busi ness emai l addr ess wer e bl acked out16

pur suant t o t hi s r equest f r om t he i ndust r y, f r om Ai r17

Canada speci f i cal l y?18

A. Based on consul t at i ons we have pr evi ousl y had19

wi t h i ndust r y t hi s was - -20

60. Q. But i n t hi s speci f i c f i l e was t her e any21

r equest f r om Ai r Canada t o have t hei r i nf or mat i on r edact ed22

i n thi s speci f i c f i l e?23

A. We di dn t consul t t hem on t hi s speci f i c f i l e24

because i t was i nf ormal and we j ust went wi t h accor di ng t o25


16/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

1

t he usual personal i nf ormat i on exempt i ons t hat we had so1

t hat we coul d get you t he f i l e i n a t i mel y f ashi on.2

61. Q. Let s go al so t o page 68 of t hi s f i l e,3

act ual l y 67, Annex G. Thi s was an exhi bi t f i l ed by Ai r4

Canada, cor r ect ?5


62. Q. What I am seei ng here on pages 68, 69 and 707

i s t hat vi r t ual l y t he ent i r e pages wer e bl acked out ,8

correct?9

A. Cor r ect .10

63. Q. Why i s t hat ?11

A. Because t hey cont ai ned PNR detai l s whi ch have12

per sonal i nf or mat i on cont ai ned wi t hi n t hem.13

64. Q. Al l PNR i nf or mat i on i s per sonal i nf or mat i on?14A. Par don me?15

65. Q. Al l PNR i nf or mat i on i s per sonal i nf or mat i on?16

A. Not necessar i l y. Cer t ai n par t s ar e. I t17

cont ai ns al l of t he i nf or mat i on r el at i ng t o t he passenger18

ai r t r avel .19

66. Q. I sn t t hat t he i ssue bef or e t he Agency, t he20

passenger s t r avel ?21

A. Sur e, but t he det ai l s of t hei r t r avel ar en t22

r eal l y r el evant . I f t hey ar e t hey have been i ncl uded i n23

t he deci si on and t he i nf or mat i on i s r el eased.24

67. Q. Ar e you f ami l i ar wi t h t he not i on of open cour t25


17/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

1

pr i nci pl e?1

A. I am.2

68. Q. Di d you r ecei ve any t r ai ni ng concer ni ng t he3

not i on of open cour t pr i nci pl e?4

A. Yes.5

69. Q. Ar e you aware of any r el at i onshi p between t he6

open cour t pr i nci pl e and sect i on 2( b) of t he Char t er ?7


quest i on because of r el evance and t he f act agai n t hat you9

ar e aski ng an opi ni on f r om a wi t ness who i s not a par t y i n10

t hi s case. However Madame Bel l erose wi l l answer subj ect11

t o t he r i ght t o have t he pr opr i et y of t he quest i on12

det er mi ned by t he cour t at a l ater dat e. *13

THE WI TNESS: Sorr y. Can you r epeat t he quest i on?14DR. LUKACS:15

70. Q. My quest i on was: Ar e you aware of any16

r el at i onshi p bet ween t he open cour t pr i nci pl e and sect i on17

2( b) of t he Char t er ?18

A. Yes.19

71. Q. Do you know i f t he Agency i s subj ect t o t he20

open cour t pr i nci pl e?21

A. Yes.22

72. Q. Ar e you awar e of any pol i ci es or r ul es of t he23

CTA t hat ar e i n pl ace f or t he pur pose of compl i ance wi t h24

t he open cour t pr i nci pl e?25


18/28


19/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

1

t he open cour t pr i nci pl e wer e handl ed as i nf or mal access1

r equest s?2

A. That ' s cor r ect . And act ual l y I shoul d3

el aborate on my pr evi ous answer . There were some r equest s4

f or i nf or mat i on wher e cl ai ms f or conf i dent i al i t y had been5

made on cer t ai n cases, so t hat i nf or mat i on was al so6

r emoved i n t hose cases.7

78. Q. That i s obvi ous. That i s not an i ssue i n t hi s8

case. Al l r i ght ; l et s l ook at page 79 of t he same9

document . J ust f or cl ar i t y woul d you car e t o r ead i nt o10

t he r ecor d t he t wo t i t l es and t he f i r st t wo par agr aphs,11

pl ease?12

A. I mport ant pr i vacy i nf ormat i on and Open Cour t13

Pr i nci pl e"1479. Q. And t he f i r st t wo par agr aph?15

A. As a quasi - j udi ci al t r i bunal oper at i ng l i ke a16

cour t , t he Canadi an Transpor t at i on Agency i s bound by the17

const i t ut i onal l y pr ot ected open- cour t pr i nci pl e. Thi s18

pr i nci pl e guar ant ees t he publ i c s r i ght t o know how19

j ust i ce i s admi ni st er ed and t o have access t o deci si ons20

r ender ed by admi ni st r at i ve t r i bunal s. Pur suant t o t he21

Gener al Rul es, al l i nf or mat i on f i l ed wi t h t he Agency22

becomes par t of t he publ i c r ecor d and may be made23

avai l abl e f or publ i c vi ewi ng.24

80. Q. Okay, so what does publ i c r ecord mean here?25


20/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

1

A. I t means i t ' s avai l abl e f or publ i c vi ewi ng.1

I t ' s avai l abl e t o t he publ i c.2

81. Q. So any document pl aced on publ i c r ecor d t he3

publ i c can access. Woul d i t be f ai r t o say t hat ?4

A. As l ong as i t i s f i l ed wi t h t he Agency and i n5

r espect t o a pr oceedi ng.6

82. Q. So are you t el l i ng me t hat i f somebody wal ks7

i n t he door of t he Agency and says hi , I want t o see f i l e8

number so- and- so t hen t hey can l ook at al l document s on9

t he publ i c r ecor d?10

A. Wel l t hey have t o be - - we have t o r emove11

per sonal i nf or mat i on f r om t hem pr i or t o vi ewi ng.12

83. Q. But I don t under st and r eal l y. You say t hat13

al l document s ar e pl aced on publ i c r ecor d. You j ust sai d14t hat al l document s on publ i c recor d can be vi ewed. Then15

wher e does t hi s Act of r emoval f i t i nt o t hat not i on of16

publ i c r ecor d?17

A. I am sor r y. Can you r epeat that ?18

84. Q. You j ust sai d t hat document s f i l ed wi t h t he19

Agency ar e pl aced on publ i c r ecor d, cor r ect ?20

A. Cor r ect .21

85. Q. You al so sai d t hat document s on publ i c r ecor d22

can be vi ewed by the publ i c.23

A. Cor r ect .24

86. Q. Where does r edact i on come i nt o t hi s whol e25


21/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

2

pr ocedur e t hen? The Agency s own i nf ormat i on sheet j ust1

says t hat t hose t hi ngs may be vi ewed by the publ i c.2

A. They may be vi ewed by t he publ i c but t he3

per sonal i nf or mat i on t hat i s cont ai ned wi t hi n t hose4

document s i s r emoved pr i or t o vi ewi ng.5

87. Q. So l et s back- t r ace. What do you mean t hen by6

t he not i on "publ i c r ecor d" , because my under st andi ng of7

publ i c r ecor d i s t hat publ i c r ecor d i s a document t hat t he8

publ i c can vi ew? Do you agr ee wi t h t hat?9

A. Yes.10

88. Q. So what you are t el l i ng me here i s t hat you go11

and r emove personal i nf ormat i on f r om document s whi ch are12

al r eady on publ i c r ecor d?13

A. We r emove personal i nf ormat i on f r omAgency14r ecor ds pr i or t o di scl osi ng t hem t o t he publ i c, yes.15

89. Q. Doesn t publ i c r ecor d mean t hat t he publ i c can16

access t hose document s?17

A. They are accessi ng t he document s. They are18

j ust not access i ng t he per sonal i nf or mat i on t hat i s19

cont ai ned wi t hi n t hem. The publ i c has a r i ght t o20

t r anspar ency whi ch i s t he pur pose of what we ar e doi ng21

because of t he open cour t pr i nci pl e but t he i ndi vi dual22

al so has a r i ght t o pr i vacy.23

DR. LUKACS: Let s mark as Exhi bi t 4 Rul e 23 of24

t he Agency, of t he Gener al Rul es.25


22/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

2

THE WI TNESS: Sorr y, Rul e 23? Okay, we don t have1

t he Gener al Rul es wi t h us but I bel i eve you ar e t al ki ng - -2

DR. LUKACS: I bel i eve i t was pr i nt ed out .3

THE WI TNESS: I t i s t he par t wher e i t t al ks about4

t he conf i dent i al i t y of r ecor ds and t hat al l document s wi l l5

be pl aced on t he publ i c r ecor d unl ess a cl ai m f or6

conf i dent i al i t y i s made?7

DR. LUKACS: That ' s r i ght .8

THE WI TNESS: Okay.9

EXHIBIT NO. 4: Canadi an Tr anspor t at i on Agency10

Gener al Rul es, Rul e No. 23.11

DR. LUKACS:12

90. Q. So you have al r eady r ef er r ed t o i t and I13

woul d pr ef er t o have i t i n f r ont of you.14MR. LESSARD: I j ust gave i t t o her .15

THE WI TNESS: Thi s i s onl y a por t i on of t he16

Gener al Rul es. Ther e ar e ot her t hi ngs that come i nt o17

pl ay. We onl y have a port i on here t o t al k about but okay18

l et ' s - -19

DR. LUKACS:20

91. Q. Whi ch por t i on do you have t her e because my21

under st andi ng i s t hat Rul e 23 i n i t s ent i r et y shoul d be22

bef ore you?23

A. Rul e 23 i s her e.24

92. Q. Yes. I s t her e any ot her Rul e i n t he Gener al25


23/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

2

Rul es t hat gover n conf i dent i al i t y?1

A. Yes, t her e i s anot her r ul e f ur t her t hat t al ks2

about t he Agency can deem cer t ai n r ecor ds conf i dent i al .3

Unf or t unat el y I don t have t he rul es wi t h me t o i dent i f y4

t hat f or you. I apol ogi ze.5

93. Q. You ar e r ef er r i ng t o f i nanci al or cor por at e6

i nf or mat i on. I s that t he Rul e t hat you ar e r ef er r i ng t o?7

A. Yes.8

94. Q. But we ar e t al ki ng her e about per sonal9

i nf or mat i on not - -10

A. That s r i ght .11

95. Q. So can you expl ai n t o me somet hi ng?12

A. Sur e.13

96. Q. Rul e 23 has an el abor at e conf i dent i al i t y14pr ocedur e.15


97. Q. A par t y who doesn t want some i nf ormat i on t o17

be r el eased t o t he publ i c can r equest conf i dent i al i t y,18

correct?19


98. Q. And i f t he r equest i s gr ant ed t hen a r edact ed21

copy of t he document i s pl aced on t he publ i c r ecor d.22

A. That ' s cor r ect.23

99. Q. So deci di ng what t o r edact and what i sn t ,24

i sn t t hat t he j ob of t he members of t he Agency accordi ng25


24/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

2

t o Rul e 23?1


quest i on because agai n i t i s a quest i on of r el evance and3

you ar e aski ng f or an opi ni on or an admi ssi on f r om t he4

wi t ness. However Madame Bel l erose wi l l answer subj ect t o5

t he r i ght t o have t he pr opr i et y of t he quest i on det er mi ned6

by t he cour t at a l at er dat e. *7

THE WI TNESS: The Agency i s subj ect t o t he Pr i vacy8

Act and so f or t hat r eason t hat i s why the per sonal9

i nf or mat i on i s r edact ed.10

DR. LUKACS:11

100. Q. You are not answer i ng my quest i on. My12

quest i on was: I sn t i t t he dut y of member s and t he13

r esponsi bi l i t y of member s hear i ng t he case t o det er mi ne14pur suant t o Rul e 23 what por t i ons wi l l be redact ed and15

what por t i ons won t ?16

A. I n a cl ai m f or conf i dent i al i t y, yes .17

101. Q. So i f no cl ai m f or conf i dent i al i t y i s made al l18

document s ar e pl aced on t he publ i c r ecor d, cor r ect ?19

A. Wi t h t he personal i nf or mat i on r emoved.20

102. Q. Can you poi nt t o me at anyt hi ng i n t he General21

Rul es t hat r equi r es t he r emoval of per sonal i nf or mat i on?22

A. The Agency i s subj ect t o t he Pr i vacy Act .23

That ' s what r equi r es us t o r emove t he per sonal24

i nf or mat i on.25


25/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

2

103. Q. My quest i on was: Can you poi nt t o me at1

somet hi ng i n t he Gener al Rul es t hat r equi r es t he removal2

of per sonal i nf or mat i on, i n t he Gener al Rul es?3

A. I n t he Gener al Rul es, no.4

104. Q. No. The Gener al Rul es r equi r e t hat al l5

document s wi t h r espect t o whi ch conf i dent i al i t y has not6

been cl ai med be pl aced on publ i c r ecor d, cor r ect ?7

A. Thi s i s cor r ect .8

105. Q. And what you ar e t el l i ng me i s t hat af t er a9

document i s pl aced on publ i c r ecor d you go i n and r edact10

thi ngs f r om i t .11

A. We don t r edact t hi ngs. We r edact per sonal12

i nf or mat i on t hat i s r equi r ed under t he Pr i vacy Act whi ch13

i s anot her l egi sl at i on t o whi ch we ar e r equi r ed t o compl y.14106. Q. I am sorr y. I am aski ng you now about t he15

f act s, not about t he l aw, f or t he l aw wi l l be f or t he16

cour t t o deci de. My quest i on i s: When you have a f i l e17

whi ch cont ai ns no cl ai m f or conf i dent i al i t y whi ch we have18

agr eed i s pl aced on publ i c r ecor d, cor r ect ?19

A. Cor r ect .20

107. Q. And t hen when t he publ i c want s t o access t he21

f i l e you go i n and r edact a por t i on of i t . I s t hat22

correct?23

A. We r emove - - no, not a por t i on. We r emove24

per sonal i nf or mat i on.25


26/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

2

108. Q. I s per sonal i nf or mat i on not a por t i on of t he1

document ?2

A. I guess vaguel y, yes.3

109. Q. I t i s cont ai ned i n t he document . So t o4

summar i ze even when a document i s pl aced on publ i c r ecord5

pur suant t o Rul e 23 you r edact f ur t her por t i ons f r om i t6

bef or e r el easi ng i t t o t he publ i c, cor r ect ?7

A. Cor r ect . I t hi nk i t i s i mpor t ant t o cl ar i f y8

t hat i t i s per sonal i nf or mat i on t hat i s r emoved.9

"Por t i ons" i sn t r eal l y cl ear . I t i s i mpor t ant t o10

di st i ngui sh t hat i t i s per sonal i nf or mat i on onl y t hat i s11

r emoved.12

110. Q. Thi ngs t hat you deem t o be per sonal13

i nf or mat i on.14A. Thi ngs t hat ar e def i ned i n t he Act as per sonal15

i nf or mat i on.16

111. Q. But you pur port t o maki ng t hose deci si ons what17

t o r edact or not , we j ust hear d ear l i er , cor r ect ?18

A. I i nt er pr et t he Act , i s that what you ar e19

aski ng?20

112. Q. What I amaski ng i s: Once t he document i s21

pl aced on publ i c r ecor d and the Agency - - as a member of22

t he Agency di d not see a r eason t o gr ant conf i dent i al i t y- -23

A. Or i f t her e was no r equest .24

113. Q. Or i f t her e was no r equest .25


27/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

2

A. That ' s r i ght .1

114. Q. Then you go and make some deci si ons as t o what2

t o r edact f r om t he f i l e bef or e i t i s r el eased t o t he3

publ i c, cor r ect?4

A. Per sonal i nf or mat i on i s r emoved, t hat i s5

cor r ect .6

115. Q. And you deci de what wi l l be r emoved and what7

not ?8

A. I per sonal l y deci de or - -9

116. Q. Yes.10

A. - i s t her e an appr oval pr ocess?11

117. Q. What can you t el l me about t hat appr oval12

pr ocess?13

A. Sur e. Gener al l y speaki ng i t depends on - -14wi t h i nf or mal r equest s gener al l y we t ake car e of t hem i n15

our of f i ce. Somet i mes we consul t wi t h l egal servi ces and16

dependi ng on t he f i l e i t i s possi bl e t hat i t can go t o t he17

chai r who i s t he del egat ed head f or access t o i nf or mat i on18

and pr i vacy at t he Agency.19

DR. LUKACS: I guess I have no more quest i ons.20

Thank you.21

22

23

- - THI S CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON ADJ OURNED AT 11: 07 A. M. ON24

THE 21ST DAY OF AUGUST, 2014.25


28/28


Tel:6132388501 Fax:6132381045 TollFree18002673926

2

1

2

WE HEREBY CERTI FY THAT t he f oregoi ng was t r anscr i bed3

t o t he best of our ski l l and abi l i t y, f rom di gi t al l y4

r ecor ded pr oceedi ngs.5

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6

G R S / B M P7

bellerose cross-examination transcript

Documents