“Joel Salatin Q & A with Grow Network

Members ”

Joel Salatin

*FULL TRANSCRIPT*

Hosted By Marjory Wildcraft www.TheGrowNetwork.com

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“Joel Salatin Q & A with Grow Network Members ”

Marjory: HelloandwelcometotheHomegrownFoodSummit.ThissummitisbroughttoyoubytheGrowNetworkandmynameisMarjoryWildcraft.Igettobetheluckyhost,andournextpresenterIamsodelightedaboutisJoelSalatin.Itreallyisanhonortogettointerviewhim,andthisoneisjustalittlebitdifferentfromsomeoftheothersthatwenormallydo.I'veinterviewedJoelprobablyhalfadozentimesnow,andwhatIdecidedtodothistimewasifyou'vebeenhangingoutintheforumsandyou'veseen,I'vebeenaskingtheGrowNetworkmembers,"Hey,ifyouhadachancetoaskJoelaquestion,whatwoulditbe?"Thenofcourse,attheendofeverysummitIalwayshaveaquestionnaireandasurvey,andIreadeveryoneofthoseresponses,andgatherquestionsthatpeoplewant.

IalsodowelcomecallsfornewmemberswhenIcan,andIaskpeople,"Hey,yougotaquestionforJoel?"I'veaddedallofthesequestionsuptogether,andthatisthebasisofthisinterview,soit'sbasicallyquestionsthatarecomingfromyouandothermembersoftheGrowNetwork.Very,veryfascinating.Wecoverappsfororganicfarmers,andcertificationsfororganics,andwhatdowedoasconsumers,someofthebiggestchallengesfacingorganicfarmerstoday,andthenofcoursealsoJoel'stakeonAI,artificialintelligence,thepossiblejoblossissue,andthefutureoffoodwithAILetmereadyoualittlebitaboutJoel'sbackgroundifyouhaven'teverheardabouthim.MyGod,Ithinkeverybodyknowshim.Joelisthemostfamousfarmerintheworld.He'sknownasthehighpriestofthepasture,andthemosteclecticthinkerfromVirginiasinceThomasJefferson.

He'sascomfortablemovingcowsinapastureasaddressingceosinaWallStreetbusinessconference.Thatmanreallyisgoodwithwords.You'llhearthatandenjoyit.Joelistheauthorofadozenbooks.Mostnotably,Folks,ThisAin'tNormal,YouCanFarm,andSaladBarBeef.Joelandhis550acrefarm,whichheandhisfamilyrun,havebeenfeaturedinMichaelPollan'sbestsellingbook,Omnivore'sDilemma,andintheawardwinningdocumentaryFoodInc.Ithinkhe'sactuallybeeninafewotherdocumentariessincethen.Anyway,

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Joel'severywhere.Hereallyisthemostfamousfarmerintheworld.Let'sgetstartedwiththisinterviewwithyourquestionstoJoel.

Marjory: Well,IwouldreallyliketowelcomeJoeltothecall.Welcome,Joel.

Joel: Thankyou.It'sgreattobewithyou.

Marjory: Thankssomuch.Thisinterviewisgoingtobejustalittlebitdifferentfromwhatwenormallydo.TheGrowNetworknowhas,wellatthetimewe'redoingthisrecording,about165,000activeandengagedmembers,andIsaid,"Wow,"youknow?IputitoutintheforumsandIsaid,"IfyouhadaquestionforJoel,whatyouwouldaskhimandI'llgetallthequestionstogether."I'vegatheredthemupandI'vetriedtoputtheminawaythatflowsreasonablewell,butIknowyou'resogoodonyourfeet.I'mjustgoingtogivethedifferentquestionsastheycomeupandwemightbejumpingaroundalittlebit.Doesthatsoundokay?

Joel: Thatsoundsjustfine.

Marjory: Yeah.Youaresogiftedwithwords,soI'msureyou'regoingtobefine.Tom,Lacey,andCelesteandseveralothersaskedthisonequestionofwhatisthebiggesthurdlefacingorganicfarmerstodayandwhatshouldwebemoreawareofasconsumersandaspotentialorganicfarmersourselves?

Joel: Yes.Yeah,Ithinkthesinglebiggesthurdlefromamarketingstandpoint...Now,thisisaveryopenquestion.Idon'tknowifthey'reaskingaboutwhat'sthebiggesthurdleingrowing,biggesthurdleinmarketing,biggesthurdlein...

Marjory: Oh,yeah.

Joel: ...business.

Marjory: Right.

Joel: It'saprettywideopenquestion,soletmetakeacoupleoflittlestabsatit.Ithinkfromamarketingstandpoint,i.e.findingaplaceatthe

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markettrough,okay,isWalmartIndustrialOrganics,andnowintheU.S.we'reactuallycertifyingorganic,evenhydroponics,systemsthatdon'tevenusanysoil.Thisisacreatingatremendousflatteningofthemarketexpansionthatorganicshasenjoyed,especiallylocalorganics.Farmersmarkets,CSAs,thingslikethathavereallyenjoyedatremendousexpansionoverthelast20yearsandthat'snowflatteningorevendippingaspeopleshiftfromfarmersmarketsandlocalproducestandsandgettingtheirfoodthesameplacetheygettheirdiapersandtheiroilchanged.

Marjory: Whenyousayitlikethat,itsoundsterrible.

Joel: Yeah.Yeah.Butthat'swhereweare,andsothat'sarealthing.Ofcourse,nowthenewpressure,especiallyinmeatsandsnackmixesfrombarslike,whatever,snackbarstojerky,driedmeats,andthingslikethatisAmazon.com,thewholedirectmarketdoor-to-doorsalesovertheinternet.That'screatingatremendousamountofpressureaswell.Theseareallkindofmarketchangesandpressuresthatputmoreonusonusfarmerstomessagebetter,totellourstorybetter,totrytodifferentiatebetter,andactuallybecomebetteratbeingthewhatever,thefood,theauthenticityguruinourregion.

Marjory: Yeah.Yeah.Iwouldabsolutelyagreewithyou.Almostanybusinessitalmostseemsliketheachillesheeltowhethertheyflourishornothastodowithmarketingandit'stough,youknow?Ithinkthepersonalitytypeofsomebodywho'safarmerdoesnotnecessarilylenditselftobeingamarketer.It'satoughthing.

Joel: No.Yeah,whichthenleadsme...That'sagreatsegue.It'slikeyouwerereadingmymind.Yes.Theproblemisthatthestorytelling,messaging,intellectualnutritionalgurucoach,allright,thosearenotthecupoftea,theskillsetgenerallyownedbysomeonewhowantstocarryfive-gallonbucketsofwaterandfeedandmoveanimalsandpullweeds.

Marjory: Yeah,andcleanoutchickenstalls.Yeah.

Joel: Yeah.Yeah,yeah.So,thatmovesyoudirectlyintowhat,fromabigoverallbusinessstandpoint,what'sthebiggesthurdlefacingorganic

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producersandthatisrelationalskillsets,team-building,beingabletobringonpartnersthathaveskillsetsthatyoudon'thave.Wegotabigsignoutinourfarmofficethatsayssuccesswillalwaysdemandthatyouspendtimewithpeopleyouwouldn'tnormallytalkto.

Marjory: Oh.Wow.Yeah.Right.Yeah.

Joel: Ithinkthere'salotoftruthinthatbecausethetruthisthattheskillsandtalents,thegiftsnecessaryforsuccessfulbusinessgenerallydon'tgrowonthesamepairoflegs.Youknow,wetendtofindoursweetspotsindifferentskillsets,andsomostofthetimeinmyexperiencewithyoungbeginningfarmersisa)afearofbuildingateamtooearly,"Oh,Idon'twanttogetlockedinwithemployeesandwagesandthingslikethat.I'mnotevenmakingalivingmyself."That'swhyI'vebeensoaggressiveatwhatwe'vedonehereisbuildingateamwithoutwages.Well,doesthatmeanyouhaveslaves?No,no,no.Whatitmeansisthatyouhaveperformance-orientedcompensationpackages,soyougetpaidpersale,yougetpaidperchickenprocessed,yougetpaidperwhatever,peremailsignup,okay?Whathappensthenisyouthencangetpartnerswhoareequallyatriskifthingsdon'tgoandyouprotectyourselffromaguaranteeofpayifthingsdon'tgowell.

Marjory: Yeah,that'sagreatmodelthat'sjusthappeninginalotofdifferentindustriesof...

Joel: Yes.

Marjory: ...youpaybyperformanceorpayperclickand...

Joel: Yes.

Marjory: ...it'sthewholeprocessofcompaniesbecomingleanerandleaner.

Joel: Yes.Yes.Yeah,thatwholeperformance-based,commission-basedcompensationplanwhatitdoesisitbecomesit'sownvettingsystem.Peoplewhoareself-confidentandaggressiveandwhatwecallbrighteyedandbushytailedthosekindofpeopleareactuallydrawntothesekindsofsystems.Peoplewhoarejustdoingtheir

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time,puttingintheirtimetheyarerepelledbyit.Itbecomesarealnicevettingsystemtoactuallygetpartnerswhoshareyourcharacterandyourentrepreneurialdeal.

Marjory: Andsothat'sagreatpieceofadvicefor...

Joel: Yeah.

Marjory: ...youngfarmersistocreatepartnershipsanddoapaperperformancetypeofarrangementtohelpmitigatetheriskofincome.

Joel: Yes.Yes.So,that'sone.AndthenIwouldsayaswemoveintobigpicture,especiallyifyoumoveintolivestock,whichofcourseisourbailiwick,ifyoucouldsaywhatisthesinglebiggesthurdleespeciallyforlivestockIwouldsaythesinglebiggesthurdleisfoodregulations.Ithasn'thitproducetoomuchyet.Youcanstillprettymuchpulloffasideofaroadandselltomatoes.Ithinkthosedaysmaybeactuallynumbered.Wemaybeinthefinaldaysofthat,butforsureinthelivestockarenatobeabletomarketcheeseordairyorchickenorbeeforwhateveryouhavethiswholelabyrinthof,they'rescaleddiscriminatoryregulationsthatmakeitvery,verydifficultforastartuptoaccessthemarket.Thatisthesinglebiggesthurdlefacingwhetheryou'reorganicornot.Justlocal,entrepreneurial,embryonicstartupsinthelivestocksectorareextremelyhampered.That'ssoimportantbecauserightnow50%oftheconsumerdollarisforanimal,somethinganimal,whetherit'sdairy,egg,pork,whatever.25%isproduceand25%isdrygoods,youknowflour,sugar,nuts,driedthings,andsoifwe'regoingtoactuallychasethebiggorillaintheroomwe'vegottobechasingthelivestocksector,whichisthehardesttodealwithbecauseoftheregulatoryclimate.

Marjory: Yeah.So,ifIweretosummarizesomeofthebiggesthurdles,andyou'rerightthat'sabigopen-endedquestion,butyou'vehandleditmagnificently,andsothefirstismarketingandthesecondisteam-buildingandgettingateamgoingandthenthethirdisgovernmentregulation.Like,that'sjust...

Joel: Yes.

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Marjory: ...andIcanseeit,it'sonerous.Yeah.Yeah.

Joel: Yeah.Yeah,itsureis.But,youknow,there'ssomereallyfascinatingandinterestingwhatIcallcircumventiontechniquesbeingcreatednow.Infact,agroupofusareactuallytalkingaboutin2020maybewecanhostaconferenceonwhatrightnowI'mcallingtheroguefoodconference.Let'sjustgorogue.

Marjory: Yeah.

Joel: Becausenowit'salmostasifcircumventionhasbecomemoreefficaciousthancompliance.So,we'venowgotthePMAs.Theseareprivatemarketingassociations.It'slikeacountryclub.Youjoinaclubit'snotpublic.Thosearejustpoppinguparound.There'saladyinNorthCarolinathatstartedafoodchurch,myreligionrequiresthatIgetthiskindoffood,andsothere'sallsortsofreally,reallyclevercircumventivethingsthataretryingtocreatesomewiggleroomespeciallyinthevalueaddandfoodspace.It'sprettyexcitingtoseethecreativity.

Marjory: Thecreativity.IknowpersonallyIhaveeatensomeofthemostfinestcatfishbaitmadeoutofgoatcheesethatcouldn't...

Joel: Yes.

Marjory: ...besoldlegally,anditwasdelicious.Itellyouwhat,Iwasaveryfinecatfishthere.

Joel: Yes.

Marjory: So,yeah.

Joel: Yes.

Marjory: Yeah.Yeah.Thatleadsmetoanotherquestionwhichalmostcirclesbacktothefirstanswer,andyou'dmentionedWalmartOrganicsandLindseyandWilliamandJanet,there'sactuallyquiteafewpeopleasklikewhatisupwiththeplethoraofstandards.There'sorganic.There'scage-free.There'shumane.There'sorganictilth.There's

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Oregontilth.Justdoyouhaveanyadviceforhowto,andthenofcourse,youknow,yeahright,doesorganicsfromWalmartreallymeananything,right?Doyouhaveanyadviceforhowtonavigatethatmazeofstandards?

Joel: Yeah,well,yeah,that'sthewholecertificationthinggrewoutof,oneofthereasonsthatthewholecertificationthingdevelopedwasbecausefarmersdidn'twanttohavetotelltheirdifferentiationstoryandconsumersdidn'twanttohavetothinkaboutknowinganything.Ifitgotthestamp,ifitgotthestampofapproval,wellthenIdon'thavetothink,Idon'thavetocompareonefarmtoanother,onechickentoanother,oneeggtoanother.Ifit'sgotthisstamp,thenIdon'thavetothinkaboutit.Inbothcases,boththeconsumerandtheproducer,thecertificationisallabout,canIsaylaziness?Nothavingtodoanythingbecausethisother,thethirdpartyhereistakingcareofitall.Inmyview,thesinglebiggestfallacyofthesecertificationsisthatwheneveracertificationisbased,whenitfinancesitselfonthebacksofthecertifyee,inotherwordsIwantthecertificationsoIpayforanaudittogetcertified,everysinglesystemthatfundsitselfonthebasisofthepeoplereceivingthecertification,payingforit,isdoomedtofailbecausetheincentiveistogrowthecertification,compromisethestandardsinordertogrowthepoolofcertifiedpeopleandthereforetheflowofcashflowingintothehomeofficethat'sdoingtheaudits.

Marjory: Yeah.

Joel: That'swhyeveryoneofthemovertimegraduallygetscompromisedandadulteratedandthat'swhathappens.

Joel: Mysenseisthatthequestionsofnavigatingofallthesecertificationstheyareactually,thereisaplethoraofthem.They'reallovertheplaceandsomeofthemmeansomething,mostofthemdon't.Ourfarmhasnottakenanycertificationspartlybecausewethinktheyallgetsquirrellyoutattheend.Forexample,wedopigaeratorcompostandweturnourcompostwithpigs.Well,that'sdisallowedinorganiccertification.

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Marjory: Really?Oh.

Joel: Yeah.Therearealotofthingsthatasyougetouttotheendsofthem,youknowtheanimalwelfarestuff.You'vegottoeuthanizethemfirst.Well,howareyougoingtoeuthanizethem?Withgas.Well,thenyougetintosystemsthatcost$100,000justforthecabinettobeabletodoitandit'sactuallyaninexactscienceandyou'vegottodealwithworkersafety,expense.Allthesethingsjuststartgettingkindofcrazyoutthebackend,andIreallythink...

Marjory: Ireallyappreciatethatinsightthatthecertificationisbasicallymeanttobeaconvenienceoratime-saverfortheconsumerandIlovethatdescriptionofthemodelofhowit'salmostlikeafiatcurrency,it'sdoomedtofailatsomepointandtime...

Joel: Yes.

Marjory: ...justbecauseofthevestedinterest.

Joel: Yes.

Marjory: Iguessreallyitsoundstomelikewhatwereallyneedtodoisjustdeveloptherelationshipwithourlocalfarmers,theknow,like,andtrustmodelofisthatpersonreallygrowinggoodfoodornot,whichdoestaketimeanditwouldbesomuchmoreconvenienttohavethatlittlestamporthatlittlething,youknow?

Joel: Yes.

Marjory: Yeah.

Joel: Yeah.Well,you'reright,you'reright,butthere'snofreelunchandanythingworthhavingisworthputtingalittlebitofinvestmentin.Itdoesn'talwayshavetobelocal.Wecan'talwaysvisitthebananagrowerorwhatever,butwecanputsomeattentiononvettingitandtherearealotofthingsthatyoucanlearnonawebsite.Imean,ifyougetonawebsiteandthefarmerhasnotrespassingsignsorlikerightherewehaveabigorganicpoultrycompanyhereintheShenandoahValleyandifyougetontheirwebsitetheyhaveawhole

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tabthatyoucanpushmeetourfarmers.Gomeettheirfarmers.Well,they'reallstandingoutsidetheirconfinementchickenhouses,youknow?It'sorganicchicken,butthechickensnevergooutside,theyneverseeanygrass,andit'sjustfactoryfarmingwithorganicslappedonit.There'salotofsleuthingthatyoucandojustontheinternetwatchingthewebsites.

Marjory: Good.Dove-tailingagainintoyoumentionedearlier,andthiswasanotherquestionthatcameupfromJimandDonandLisa,Sherry,aquaponicshasrecentlybeenallowedtobecertifiedorganicandmostofuswereupinarmslikewhat?Areyoukiddingme?Tosomeextent,itlookskindofinnocent,like,yeah,ifyou'reonlyputtinggoodstuffinthewaterandallthat.IthinkIknowwhatyouranswer'sgoingtobe,butwhyistheresomuchupsetaboutaquaponicsbeingmadeorganic?Thecommunitywantstoknow.

Joel: Yeah.Well,generallywhenyouhavenon-soilproduceitcontainsupto30%morewater,itdoesn'thavethenutrition.Now,partofthatnutritionissimplybecauseitismorewatery,itsimplydoesn'thavethemineralization,themineralizationconcentrationsarenotnearlyasgoodbecauseit'sdilutedwithalltheextrawater,soyouhavethatissue.Youhaveanutritionalissue.Youhavewaterissue.Yousimplycannotgetthefullrangeofsoilfoodweb,themycorrhizaeortheactinomycetes.Imean,weallknowthatahandfulofhealthysoilhaswhateveritis,likeninebillionbeingsinit,allright?Yousimplycan'tduplicatethatinasoillesssystem,sothat'sreallycritical.

Now,thatbeingsaid,Idowanttocrackadoorforsomebody'sthatusingkindofamediumingrowththat'sbigenoughandhasenoughaggregateinittoactuallycreateafungalbacteriamycorrhizalareatogrowabunchofthefoodwebthings.Imean,Ihaveseen,forexample,aquaponicsystemsusingbeadsorpebblesorsmallrocksorsomethinginalargebedthatareactuallyfullofearthworms,forexample.There'senoughaerationintheretoactuallyhaveearthwormsinthem.IguessformemybottomlineisifyoursystemwillgrowearthwormsthenI'mokaywithit.

Marjory: Okay.

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Joel: Ifitwon't,I'mnot.

Marjory: Well,mypersonaltakeonitisifyou'renotbuildingsoilintheprocessofproducingfoodthenwe'refundamentallynotsustainable.Mymainissuewithitisyou'renotbuildingsoilandtheorganicstandardsinmyunderstandingwasinitiallythatitwasallaboutregenerativeagriculture,soIthinkwe'veshiftedawayfromthat.

Joel: Yeah.Well,it'samazinghowmuch,whatever,cleverspeakpeoplecancomeupwith.Imean,thejustificationforthesesystemsislookhowmuchmoreyoucangrowinatinyspace.Youdon'tneedalltheroom.Youdon'tneedallthewater.Werecyclethewater,sowedon'thavetohaveallthewater.Yougetallthesespecialsupposedbenefits,butagainthey'recherry-pickingthepositivesandbythesametokenyoudon'tgetanynaturetranspiration.Youdon'tgetanysoilfoodweb.Youdon'tgetanysoildevelopment.Yes.Doyougetnutrition?Well,probablynot.Youcanmakeacaseforanysystemifyou'reallowedtosimplycherry-pickthegoodandnotdealwithanyofthenegative.

Marjory: Well,veeringoffonmoreintoyourdomainandI'mgoingtobeveryinterestedtoyourreactiononthisone,butSarah,Amy,andSueandacoupleofothershadaskedaboutyourthoughtsonculturedmeat,alsoknownaslabmeatorsyntheticmeatoretc.,wheretheybasicallyjusttakemeatcellsandthengetittoreproduceandyoubypassthewholeanimal.

Joel: Yeah,yeah,yeah.Yeah.Well,againtheentirepushforthisistoeliminatetheneedtohavetoslaughterananimalbecauseasourculturehasgrownmoreandmoredisconnectedfromitsecologicalumbilicalandtheunderstandingthatgoeswiththecycleoflife,whichislife,death,decomposition,regeneration,life,death,decomposition,regeneration.That'sacircle.Ithappensinacompostpile.Ithappensineveryaspectoflife.So,life,death,decomposition,regeneration.Thewholeideathatwecanactuallyhavelifewithoutanydeathisafundamentallyanti-factual,anti-ecologythought.Everythingiseatingandbeingeaten.Everythingisdyingandbeing

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decomposedandregeneratedinsomeotherform,andsothewholeideathatyoucanhavelifewithoutdeathissilly.

Thewholefakemeatthingispredicatedonanunsoundparadigm,butsecondlywe'rebacktothehydroponics.We'rebacktochemicals.We'rebacktoartificials.Canyouduplicatetheintricaciesandthecomplexitiesofthebacterialfungaldigestivemicrobiomerelationshipsandallthatthosethingsdoandtheepigenetics?Imean,itgoessofarofftothinkthatwecanwanderintothisawesomemysteriousworld.Imean,we'veonlynamed10%ofthesoilbacteria.10%.Manypercentiscompletelyunnamed.That'showlittleweknowaboutit,okay?Tothinkthatwecanwadeintothis,thisarena,likeabunchofswashbucklingconquistadorpiratesandjustrecreateitfromsimplicitywithoutanyofthoseintricaciesissimply,wellit'sarrogantbutit'salsoveryfoolish.I'mgoingtobetformysoil,youknowmythree-trillionmemberinternalcommunity,I'mgoingtotrytofeedthemlikemygreat-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-greatgrandparentsbecausethere'salotmoresimilaritybetweenwhatI'mcarryinginsideofmetodayandmythousand-year-oldgrandparentthenthereissomeStarTrek,nirvana,cosmicfutureoflab-createdartificials.

Marjory: Yeah.Awallofmeatyoucarveoutasteakfrom.Gosh.

Joel: Youknow,wewentdownthatroadwithJustusVonLiebigwhoin1837withhisvacuumtubesbroughtMPKfertilizationtotheworld.Helookedatthesevacuumtubes,hesays,"Ah,seealloflifeissimplyarearrangementofnitrogen,potassium,andphosphorous,andsoifwecanjustcreatethatthenwecancreatelifewithoutanythingelse."Hisgoalsweresincereandnoble.Imean,hewaslookingforananswertosoilfertilityproblems.Igrantthat.Hewasn'taconspiracistoranevilperson,buthesimplydidn'tseealotofthethings.Howmanythingsdowegoinartificially?Lookathydrogenatedvegetableoil."Oh,wedon'tneedtoeatbutterandlard.Throwoutthatstuff.Wegottohavehydrogenatedvegetableoil,Crisco,"andthatwastheofficialorthodoxyoftheentireculturefor50,60years,andnownotonlyisitnotrecommendedit'sactuallyconsideredahazardousfood

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thatyoushouldnoteatanyofitandyetitdominatedthedietdictocratsfor50years.

Everytimeyougoinandstartmessingwithnaturelikethis,MadCowperfectexample."Hey,let'sfeedourcowsdeadcows."PeoplelikemewerebrandedasLudditesandNeanderthalbarbariansbecausewewouldn'tendorsethisnewprogressiveanswertobeingabletogrowproteinmoreefficiently,andthen40yearslaterthere'sthisbigglobaloopsmaybeweshouldn'touttadonethatwithbovine...

Marjory: Yeah.

Joel: ...spongiformencephalopathy.ThetruthisthereisalotmorecomplexityandbeautifulmysteriousstuffgoingonthanyouandIcanimagineandeventhesmartestscientistscanknowwhat'sgoingon,andsoI'mwithMichaelPollen.I'msayingprobablyifyourgreat-grandmothercouldn'thaveit.We'retalkingabout1900.Hetalksaboutifitwasn'tavailablebefore1900youprobablyshouldn'teatit,andIthinkthat'saprettygoodruleofthumb.Wecanallbeverythankfulthathotdogswereintroducedatthe1890World'sFair.Theyjustcameinundertheradar.

Marjory: Ohmygosh,Joel.Ihaven'teatenahotdoginyearsandnowIwantone.

Joel: Well,youcanhaveoneofours.Wemakehotdogsandtheyaredelicious.Theyaretherealdeal.

Marjory: Ibet.Now,Iknowthatyou'renotaLuddite,andwedowanttoshifttotechnologies.Wedon'twanttonecessarilythrowthe...

Joel: Right.

Marjory: ...babyoutwiththebathwater.

Joel: Absolutely.

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Marjory: Jefferson,he'sactuallyaretechguruhereattheGrowNetwork,andhesaysareyouusinganyappstohelpyoufarmorareyouseeingorganicfarmersusingappsandifsohowhelpfulisitandwhatareasisithelpingin?Areyou,youknow,Imean...

Joel: Yes.

Marjory: ...goodgrief,Ievengotasmartphonelastyear.

Joel: Well,goodforyou.Well,I'mstillaholdout.Ihaven'tgottenasmartphoneyet,butIhaveavery,verydeepappreciationforthetechnology.LetmeexplainIthinkwhere,somethingsthatI'veseenthemusedverynicely.Oneiscertainlyterrain-typetechnologywhereyoucanwalkoutandit'llgiveyouelevation.Boy,whenyou'redesigning,whenyou'rewantingtoputinaswaleorawaterpipeoragravity-fedwatersystem,there'snothinglikebeingabletowalkalinelevelacrosstheterrain.That'sareallygreatone.Anotheroneissimilar.It'sterrainGPStechnologywherewecandecideforacreages,soyoucangovery,veryaccuratelyastohowmanysquareyards,howmanyacresareinafield,inaplace,andyoucanidentifyhowmuchisaparameteratacertainnumber,certainamountofproductioninthegrass,forexample,howmanycowdaysdoesithavebecausenowIknowhowmanyacresareinit.

Iwaswithoneofourapprentices,whoisnowasubcontractorononeofourrentalproperties,andgoingouttomovethecows,andsoshe'sputthewholefarmintoaGPSdatabank.Shesays,"Here,jumponthefour-wheeler."Shetakeshersmartphoneandshe'sgotelectricfenceandthestuffonthefour-wheelerandshesays,"I'mgivingthem1.4acresaday."Itwasaherdofwhatever,300head."I'mgivingthem1.4acresaday,"soIjumponthefour-wheeler,werideoutthere,shefollowsaballoononasmartphone,anditsuddenlystops.That's1.4acres.That'swhereweputupthecrossfence.Imean,that'sprettycool.

Marjory: Thatis.Yeah.

Joel: Forme,youknowwhatIdo,I'vetrainedmyselftostepoffyardagewithinlike1%accuracy,andsoIjusttakeitandIwalkoutthrough

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thereandcountone,two,three,four,andIknowthat1.4acresiswhatever,7,350squareyards,andsoIjuststepoutthere,dothecomputationinmyhead,anddoit.ButIdeeplyappreciatethesophisticationandtheprecision,theprecisionthatthiscanbringtothetable.So,yes,thereare,youknowweatherforecasting.Imean,that'sprobablythesinglebiggestonefarmersusenow.

Marjory: And,youknow,thathasgottensurprisinglyaccurateinthelast...

Joel: Ithas.Ithas

Marjory: ...decadeorso.Yeah.

Joel: Yeah.Youcanfollowalineofthunderstorms.You'remakinghay,youknow,andsomeofthesehighercombining,weedorwhatever,andyoucanfollowthesestorms,likeyousay,yeah,very,veryaccurately.So,yeah,there'ssomereallycoolapplicationsforthesethings.

Marjory: Well,letmeswitchtopicstoevenfurtherdownthetechnologyroad,andI'llgiveyoutwoexamples.ThisisartificialintelligenceandtherearetwoexamplesIwanttobringforwardandthenseewhatyourtakeonthis.Oneisfromconventionalagriculture,whichI'mnotexcitedabout,buttheyhadthegiantpigweedwhichhasgrownoutoftheir,it'salmostlikeantibioticresistant.Theseweedsare...

Joel: Right.

Marjory: ...nowbecomingherbicideresistant.Ithinkoneofthebiggestexpenseonaconventionalfarmisroundup,andinordertoreducethatcosttheyhavetrainedanIA.Theygaveitlike10,000picturesofpigweedanditlearnedhowtoidentifypigweed,andsoonthebackofthetractorwiththewhateverthey'redraggingbehindit.I'msureyouknowthetechnologyterms,butithastheselittlecamerasanditlooksforpigweedandwhereveritseespigweedit'sspurtsjustexactlyonthatplantitselfanditleavesthecornorthesoyoreverythingelsealonesothatwaythey'reabletoreducethecost,soit'slikewow.ThisAIcanbesmartenoughtolearnhowtoidentifythisplant.Now,itcan'tdoanythingelseyet,butthat's...

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Andthenthere'sanotherexample.AIisstartingtobecomeavailableatthetinkererlevel,whichismainlylikeyouorIifwereallywantedtodothis.There'sallsortsofopensource,andtherewasonestoryIwasreadingaboutthisyoungJapaneseman,aengineer,wentbacktohisparentsfarmandtheygrowaveryparticulartypeofcucumber,andit'sapricklycucumber,andthegradingsystemforthecucumbersis,there'slike20differentlevelsandthepriceofthecucumberisdependentonthegradeandit'sverydifficulttodo.Infact,onlyhismomanddadknewhowtosortitproperly,sotheycouldn'thirepeopletodoitandhismomanddadwouldbasicallyhavetoworklikehoursandhoursandhoursduringtheharvestbecausetheyhadtodothesorting,andsothesonprogrammedanAI,hadtaughttheAIhowtogradethecucumbersbasicallyandthenconnectedthatupwithamachinethatyouputthecucumbersin.Themachinewouldtakeapictureofthecucumber,gradeit,andthendropitalongaconveyorbeltintoabinforwhatevergradeitwas,andIthought,"Wow,thatisreallyinteresting."

There'ssomeveryfascinatingapplicationsofAIcomingalong,andIjustwaswonderingifyouhadheardofanythingorseenanythingorwhatyourthoughtsareonthat,theefficienciesorconfusionsthat...

Joel: Yeah.

Marjory: ...canhappenduetothisnewtechnology.

Joel: Yeah.Well,yeah,I'mallforthat.Idon'treallyhaveaproblemwithbeingabletousethat.Imean,oneofthethingsthatwe'reseeing,forexample,intheabattoirsnow,slaughterhouses,especiallyinGreatBritain,isAIcameratechnologytouseinfrared,usingfrequencyofbacteriatobeabletocreatepicturesofthebacterialfrequenciescomingoffofacarcass,forexample,andithascreatedamoreempiricalwaytocheckforsanitationasopposedtothesniffandsmellmethodthatwestilluseinthiscountry.Whatitisdoesisiteliminatestheentirecostofhavingtoputagovernmentinspectorontheflooroftheslaughterhouse.Yousimplyhavethesehigh-levelpicturesthatcangointoacomputerfeedinsomecentralmodulewithcertainbenchmarksthatifitshowsuptoomanyofthiscoloror

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thatcolorthenbeepsorredflagsorwhateverandit'sreal-timeempiricalstuff.Ifthatactuallycreatesawayforafarmerlikemetobeabletodoon-farmprocessingthatsatisfiesthe...

Marjory: Yeah,theUSDA.

Joel: ...thesafetynetwork,theconsumerrightsadvocates,thenI'mallforit.Yeah,thetechnologycreatesamicroanalysiscapacitythatisverywelcome,andso,yeah,bothofthesethingsthatyoumentionedI'mallfor.Iseeabsolutelynoreasonwhyweshouldreduce,whyweshouldfearAIinthatkindofapplication.

Now,dowewantcamerasoneverystreetcornersothemovementofeverysinglepersoninthecountrycanbetracked?Probablynot.Butthat'sofcoursewhereChina'sgoingisChina'sgoingvery,veryrapidlythisdirection,butinterestingly,culturally,theydon'thavespacerequirementslikeweAmericanshave.WeAmericansheardon'tgetinmyface.InChina,theyloveyougettingintheirface,andsothere'sawholedifferentculturalideaofthatkindofthing.

Marjory: Youknow,I'maswe'respeakingnow,ithasnotbeenconfirmed,butI'mcurrentlydiscussingwithDr.KaiFuLee'steamaboutmegettingtodoaninterviewwithhim.Heis,forthosethatdon'tusehim,he'sbeencalledliketheBillGatesofChinaandhehasbasicallybeenspearheadingtheAImovementinChinaformany,manyyearsandI'mreallyinterestedtoseewhathehastosay.Oneofthesnippetsfromhisbookisthatinthenext15yearsheseesthatabouthalfofalljobsdonebyhumansnowwillbebetter,moreefficient,andreplacedbyeitherartificialintelligenceorrobots,andIam,justinabroadgeneralization,I'mthinkingyouknowwe'vegonedownthisroadofmechanizationoffoodandithasn'tbeengood.Evenwiththattsunamiofchangecoming,Ithinkgrowingfoodisstillgoingtoreallybesomethingthatneedsahumanhandandahumaneyenomatterhowsmartthetechnologygets,andjustwonderingaboutyourcomments,andthencertainlyI'llgetyouacopyoftheinterviewifIgettodothatwithDr.Lee.

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Joel: Yeah.Yes.Well,sofar,sofartechnologyhasneverreducedjobneeds.Imean,thinkofallthepeoplethatgotdisplacedmakingbuggywhipsandcarriagewheelsandstuffwhentheautomobilecameon.Thinkofallthepeoplethatgotreplacedmakingaharnessfordraftpowerwhentractorscameon.Thinkofallthepeoplethatgotdisplacedwhen,goodnessforthatmattereven,chemicalfertilizerdisplacedshoveling.Whencomputersstartedpeople"Ohwewon'tneedpeopleanymore.We'rejustgoingtoruna..."Well,no,allweneednowarepeopletofixalltheproblemsthecomputerscreate.

Marjory: Igotit.Yeah,Igotit.

Joel: Youknow,thestoryoftechnologyisactuallyaparallelstorywiththeexplosionofpopulationandjobmarket.Imean,herewearewithanacceleratedpopulationgrowthduringtheIndustrialAge,butgenerallyacorrespondinglyexplosivejobmarket.Now,wecouldsay,well,youknow,that'sextractiveandIdon'twanttogetallthoserabbitholes.I'mjustsayingthatjustagenerallookattechnologicaladvancehasactuallycreateddifferentkindsofwork,buttheycertainlyhavenotreducedtheneedforhumanactivity.

Marjory: Well,Ilovethatoptimisticturnofit.Yeah.Iwanttoshiftgears...

Joel: Youknow,Ihaveagoodfriend...

Marjory: Sure,goahead.

Joel: Ihaveagoodfriendwhowasaplantmanageratthelargestplumbingcopper,copperplumbingmanufacturingfacilityintheU.S.andhesaidacomputerhasneverreplacedasinglejob.Itchangesjobrequirements,butitactuallywhenyoulookatthetotalpeopleinvolvedit'snomoreefficientthanpeoplehandwritingledgers.Youknow,handwrittenledgersyoudidn'thavetoworryaboutviruses.Youhadnosecurityindustry.Youhadnopasswordindustry.Itnevercrashed.Itdidn'ttakeelectricity.It'sonereasonIstilllikebook,youknow?Ilikepapermagazines.Ilikebooks.Why?Youdon'thavetoturnanonkey.Itnevercrashes.Itnevergoesblank.Youneverhavetoreplaceit.There'salotofadvantagestothis,andIthinkthatwe

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canbecomewhatever,inordinatelyeuphoricorparanoid,eitherway,...

Marjory: Yeah.

Joel: ...overatechnologythatactuallyinandofitselfthetechnology,itmakesshifts.Itcertainlymakesshiftsinthekindsofthingsthatpeoplearedoing,butitactuallydoesn't,intheenditactuallydoesn'tdisplacepeople.

Marjory: Good.Ilovethatoptimisticviewpoint.Idowanttoshifttherebecausewe'regettingprettyclosetousingupallofyourtimeandIreallyappreciateyoubeinghere.Thisisanother,abitofacontroversialtop.Casey,Sarah,andJohnask,therewereactuallyafewothers,what'syourthoughtsonthehempandmarijuanaandthosecropsandareyouplanningongrowingthoseanytimesoon?

Joel: Well,easyquestion.First,we'renotreadytogrowthemrightnowhereatourfarm,butitcertainlyisn'tbecausewedon'tthinktheycouldbeprofitableorbecausethat'sjustnotour,it'snotourdeal.Butwhoknows,infiveyearsmaybewewill.ThebiggerpicturewhereIamin...Heylisten,Iloveit.Imean,thefactthatwecannotbuybailertwinemadeintheU.S.becausewecan'thaveusablefiber.There'sactually,there'snofiberintheU.S.that'scomparabletobeabletomakesomethingasbasicasbailertwine,lassos,andrope,youknowhemprope,isjustridiculous.AnybodythatknowsmeknowsIamallforlibertyandfreedomformoreandmoredifferentcrops.Goodness,youknowHenryFordmadeaModelToutofhempbody.Itwasstronger,itwaslighter,itwascheaperthansteel,thanmetal,buttherewereotherpeoplethathadotherideas.Ithinkthatwecandoalotmorewithsomefreedomratherthanadditional...

Marjory: Yeah.

Joel: ...regulatorytyranny.

Marjory: Igetyou.Well,I'mgoingtowrapthis...Oh,no,actuallyI'vegottwoquestionsandWilsonandMaryandKathywereaskingwhatisthemostprofitablethingyouproduceonyourfarm?Now,wedefinitely

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understandthatdiversityisactuallytherealkeytofarmsuccess,butarethereanythingsyougo"Wow,wedothiseveryyearbecauseweknowwe'regoingtomakeournutonthis."

Joel: Yeah,italldoesgotogether.Wedon'thaveonethingthat'smoreprofitablethananotherasfarasourproduction,youknowchickens,beef,pork,thatsortofthing.They'reallprettymuchthesame.Now,they'reverydifferentinincomeperacre.Thepoultryisdefinitelythehighestincomeperacre,butitalsotakesthemostlaborperacre,sothere'snofreelunch.Ifyoulookattheoverallfarmandwhatwedothat'sthemostprofitablethingwedo,it'sprobablycuttingourownfirewood.Wefigurebetweenmom'shouseandourhousethatsavesusabout$10,000ayearinheatingcosts,takesusacoupleweeks,anditgivesusashesanditgivesuscharcoalattheendthatwecanfeedpigsandkeepthepigshealthy.Asheskeepthechickenshealthybecausetheyfluffinthestuff,keepsthebugsoffthechickens,andthenitactsasawonderfulfertilizer.Allofthethingsthatwedowefeellikehavingourownoutdoorwoodfurnaceandhavingourownwoodheatanddoingthat,yesit'slabor,it'swork,buteffortforpennyisprobablythemostlucrativethingwedo.

Marjory: Well,that'ssuchafascinatinganswer.Youknow,IwasinterviewingArinaPittmanfromthePermacultureResearchInstituteawhileago,andIsaid,"Arinawhatwasyoureasiestcaloriecrop?"Shethoughtaboutitforalongtimeandshecamebackandshesaid,"Yeah,firewood."Imeantcaloriesyoueat,butyouknow?

Joel: Yeah.

Marjory: Yeah.Yeah.That'sreallygreat.I'llendupwiththislastquestionthatSherryO.andLauraasked.Again,it'salittlebitopen-ended,butIknowyou'llcomeupwithsomethingawesome.Theyweresayingifyouweretostartalloveragainnow,whatwouldyoudodifferently?

Joel: Probablydevelopateamearlierandnottrytodoeverythingmyself.Youknow,there'saprettywhatever,on-the-markbusinessthinkingrightnowcalledStrengthFinder.Ifyou'veseenanyofthatStrengthFinderstuff,it'sakindofoffshootoftheBriggsMyer

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characterpersonalitytest,thingslikethat.Thebasicthingiswe'veallheardwellyouneedtoworkonyourweaknesses,needtoworkonyourweakness,andtheirwholepremiseisyoudon'tneedtoworkonyourweaknesses,youneedtoleverageyourstrengthsandyouneedtofindpeopletopartnerwithwhoarestrongwhereyou'reweak,andIthinkthere'salotofwisdomtothat.Ithinkespeciallyweashermitcurmudgeonfarmerswherewetendtogrowupinakindofavictim-oriented,ohwoeisme,I'vegotthis,societythinksI'manidiotbecauseI'mafarmerandI'vegotmyhandsinthedirtandsmartpeopledon'tdothatandyetI'vegottofeedtheworld,we'vegotthiskindof,ohIdon'tknow,complexthatwegothroughlifewith.IthinkthatifIweretodoitoveragainIdidnotstartearlyenoughlookingforformalpartnerswhowerestrongwhereIwasweak.

Ithinkthatthat'sprobablyoneofthemostcommonthingsthatpeopledo.You'reafarmer.You'reindependent.You'reanindependentAmerican.You'resupposedtodothisyourself.I'msupposedtofixthismyself.I'msupposedtodothismyself.Theresultisthatwespendthreehoursdoingwhatsomebodywho'sskilledatitcoulddoinahalfanhour.Inthattwohours,wecouldbeconcentratingonsomethingthatwe'rereallystrongonandgeneratethreetimesasmuchmoneythatwouldletusbuildmutualinterdependenceasopposedtoindependencetothepointwherewespendalotoftimeworkingonthingsthatwe'renotgoodat,andsofindingwhatwelove,whatwe'reskilledat,andwhatwenowabout,thatsweetspotwherethosethreeuniversesintersect,whatwelove,whatweknow,andwhatwe'regoodat,that'soursweetspotandIthinkalotofthesecrettolifesatisfactionandpersonalaffirmationisinchippingoffthethingsthatareoutsidethatsweetspotandtryingtospendmorehoursadayinthatsweetspotandthatmeans,thatmeansdevelopingpartnersandrelationships,whichisnotaskillthatfarmerstendto,wheretheytendtonotexcel.

Marjory: Wow.Youknow,wearealwaysharpingonthepowerofcommunityhereattheGrowNetworkandthatwasjustwonderfullyarticulatedforthat.

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Joel: Yeah.Ialwaysaskpeople,lookifyou'regoingtogothroughahardship,youwanttogothroughitbyyourselfordoyouwanttoholdhandswithsomebody?Idon'tknowaboutyou,butevenhermitcurmudgeonsdeepdownwouldrathergothroughahardshipholdinghandsthanjustbythemselves.

Marjory: Totallygetyou.Andtowrapup,youhadtalkedaboutattheverybeginningoneofthebiggesthurdleswasmarketing,andwe'regoingtohaveabuttonrightheretotherightofyourpresentationanddirectthemtoyourwebsitewherepeoplecanpickupanyoneofyour,ohmygod,doyouhaveadozenbooksnow?IhavebeenlustingafterthatSalatinSemesterDVDset.Ireallywanttogetintothat.IhavealltheoriginalPolyfaceFarmsvideo.But,yes,wouldyouliketotakeaminuteandtellpeoplewhatresourcesyouhaveavailabletheretopickupatthewebsite?

Joel: Sure.Well,yeah,ourwebsiteispolyfacefarmsandthere'severythingtherefromlinkstoYouTubestowhatwedoonthefarmtothegiftshoptoresourcesthatwehave,booksthatwe'vewrittenorvideocontent.Youknow,thisisnotourbiggestdealbyanymeans,butwe,yeah,I'vegot12booksoutthere.Whenyoustackthemup,they'reapileabout14incheshighandyousay"Man,didIcomeupwithallthosewords."

Marjory: Yes,youdid.

Joel: So,theretheyare,andifIcontinuetostayhealthyandliveI'vegotabunchmoretitlesdancingaroundinmyhead,notjustsugarplumsnow.Youknow,there'salotofresourcethereandwewelcomeanybodytojumponthatandenjoythose.

Marjory: Well,justclickonthatbuttontotherightandthat'lltakeyoudirectlytoJoel'swebsiteand,yeah,likeIsaid,IhavebeenwantingtodothatSalatinSemesterforalongtime.I'mlookingforwardtothatfullset.Joel,thankyou,thankyou,thankyousomuchforyourtime,andformeitreallyisahonorandaprivilege.Ireallylookforwardtothisinterviewthatwedoalmostannuallynow.Youknow,theworkyou'redoingtoreallytransformorganicfarmingandhelpregenerate

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thewholesmall-familyfarmmovementthatwaslike,wewerewayononeendofapendulumwheretherewashardlyanyleft...

Joel: Right.

Marjory: ...andnowthere'squitearesurgenceandIreallyhavetocredityouwithbeingamajorforceinthatmovement,andsoappreciateyourtime.Thankyou.

Joel: Well,thankyou.Thankyouandit'saprivilegetobeonwithyou.Thankyou.