national assembly of pakistan proceedings on qadiani issue 1974

10 NATIONAL. ASSEMBLY 01: PAKISTAN 13~11 z ~ ~ . . 1 c l i l

Mr. Yahpa Bakhtiar: And is it correck t h a ~ all rhs members of Mirza Ghulam Ahmnd's f imily alc u.r-ol'f-icio members of this Electoral College?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nearer cxciudes the further away. , ' I

? L ~ & ~ ~ ~ d ~ ~ ? u ~ q ; a ~ j ~ ~ d l / ... -. I-IX&!~J-'I~ -

72 F a #!>/-.& u - ~ e , ~ ~ < u ~ , ~ ~ ~ j ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - ; J L . ~ ~ ; ~ ; : ~ ~ + ~ ~ ; / -. ., uJ - - , , ~ J ~ G ~ - U ~ J - , ! > / > ~ L L ! -d

7,&: - t This oftice. Is it lor life time? -0. - J L - .

Rlirza Nasir Ahmad: 11 is for life.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And whcrc you were elccled, was there any other candidate who contested against you? Or normally the election is unanimous'?

Slirza Nasir Ahmad: I'he election is unanimous.. onc. two ........ normally cuntcsts thc election.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sc

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: T under nhich ihr selection is 11c

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A these rules or conventions f Khalifa from his office?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So~nchody conic~ted 1 3 . :. +.

/. /

, W * ' . > ~ ~ ; ; ? ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ - ~ i ~ ~ ~ t ~ ~ ~ ~ C ~ ~ ~ ~ t c ~ ~ L,,f:-';.-- -- . - -

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are tlte ruies or c[>nvcntr~m: under which the selection i s held in rhis manncr?

Canvassing i r not a!io\\od.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And. Sir, is there any ~~mvisio!l irt these T U ~ ~ S or conventions Sor the re~noval of the L~narn or Khalifa from his office?

? I t . \-\I!I?;. Bakhtiat: Lcgal position. If you pass an ordcr I... . . . 1, .,. .I ~ ( : ~ ~ C I . ~ : ? L I ~ I I ,:I- ivithou~ consul~ation with your colleag~~cs

cs lvith ........

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/ / u ~ ~ ~ , , = A . ~ + i . . ~ G ~ . < ! G l o ~ ~ . - -5 J=~"~$~+=LII

----No ----- ;kt :I-

-?<*&: unanimous :!:Jvtl;/

>I:. l'ai~yw Bakiltiar: R4y question is a w r y silnple o11le. ; ..it!! ' t!lc\ r ) v c l ;:~le y c ~ u i'r can you o ~ e r r u l e them. lcgally iyc;lki~lg? In k!ct what cvcr may be the position. we are noL k.orti.er!)cd.

3!irza Nasir I l ~ r n a d : T i q cnn'l ovcnule mi..

Ilr. YahTa Bslihtiar: B ~ L yuu can oven-ule h e m ?

I I i r z a Nasir Ahmad: And the question of my over- r::l~:ig ilicm does not rise in the contaxr I have just told you.

.- ..!tfi,L-~y~&..& ~ ~ ~ l a n i ~ n o u s mjlhnY~bL/u+Ld

- t-+&&Jlr d i / J L

hlr. Yahya Balihtiar: Bur you can ovenule them'?

LT-?L!l.y g~,,' ( ~ \ v c = u ] ~ , JjJ J,31L/6iJ8&:J~/t1;/ -7

And they don't overrule me. -tS

CROSS-EXAMI.UAT10N OF THE QADIANI GROUP D E L U ~ A ~ O N 15

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you.

Sir, what is the significance of lbese three different titles- Imam, Khalifa and Amir-ul-Momineen? How you or your Jamaar interpret them?

* ' ./ . &Jl < I - L y 1 2 8 1 official designation f- l :J l / t l i /

d J E ~ = bpi-& - L,J=I I&~~~LI-~ - t.LtJ&JB9+3

JI 'P~"?J<~\~J~I ' & & / L L ~ I ~ J % . J ~ P ~ ~ Head of the World-wide Ahmadia C ~ m m u n i t y . & & ~ ~ ~ k l ~

&2,/d term in use ,>+,-+' &#j /v ,+ .Pix~

-f l&@$rf - dp - lo>

Mr. Yabya Bakhtiar: No, but you said that you are lmam of the jamaat.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiari And you have not yourself chosen the title of Imam? They call you?

M i z a Nasir Ahmad: Oh! No. no. they call me .......

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ......... out of respect?

Mr. Yabya Bakhtiar: And when they call you Amir-ul- Momineen, what is the meaning of Amir-ul-Momineen, that You are the Amir of all the momins?

18 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN lSLh Aug.. 1971 CROSS-EXAMINI\TIO!4 OF THE QA

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is the main function?

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: o\ , that is the main function

I , . coro~lary 6/>,dLgJikL dl~,~

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.-&5d.3>

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir. when you convert these people, you establish missions for this purpose all over the world?

Miza Nasir Ahmad: Practically

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now can you give us an idea as to how many, on the average, every year or every week, every month, you convert to your faith?

Af~6,cff/dl,,'Jn61cr>/"

aJ: &ic adult J~rr-r l- f lU~ . . - - hundred and sixty eight t h o u

- ~ J , 3 6 , t ~ > / ~ ~ , , ~ : , ~ ~ ~

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Too

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7 *.

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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: C many have been converted in P so?

Mr. Yahya Balchtiar: In P

Mr. Yahya.Bakhtiar: b population. I may come to that tl

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hundred and sixty eight thousand were Ahmadis, according to

- L / & ~ J P ~ , / ~ J ~ ~ . + k%~~?~hJlj their Census Report.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Too busy?

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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Could you please tell us, how many have been converted in Pakistan in the past 20 years or so?

*$'3 &J census i / f u t f - 1 0 i J 8, : ~ f p t l j / - ---- J1;

Mr. Yahyn Bakhtiar: In Pakistan?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. Sir, I am not asking the Population. I may come to that the converts?

51 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [51h Aup.. 1974

~llc entire record is available before the debate opens. 1 think Ihe debate will be after 20th.

Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes.

Mr. Chairman: By that time we will prepare the record

Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes; and copies should be supplied.

Mr. Chairman: Copies of the Cross-examination ....... :

(Interruption)

No, no, that has been decided by the Steering Committee; the questions shall remain with the Attorney-General.

Sardar Moula Bakhsh S o o m : We should be given a copy ...... ....

(In terruprwn)

No, Sir, after writing, Sir, we should be given a copy after you have finished.

SUPPLEMENTARY QUESTIONS FOR CROSS-EXAmATION

4 0 n e thing 1 may also point out. -gGl[al:&,%-k these may be handed over questions e/@&.g - to Mr. Aziz Bhatti and to Moulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari; so that the Attorney-General is not disturbed by the Chits. So, during the break, the Attorney-General will receive these questions and will examine them and whatever possible course

C O R R E C ~ O N OF RECORD OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION

is adopted, the ~ttorne~-General will adopt.

Yes, Sahibzada Safiullab.

CORRECTION OF RECORD OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION

No, no. This is the privilege of the -2.2:

&.<J\ : A I & ) I ~ ~ -f- -I

-members only ' I J ! : & ~ , R

-----JJ :AI&)J%~

122 NATIONAL A S S W L Y OF PAKISTAN -

[Srh Aug.. 1974

........ If the law is made what is a Muslim ---- ~ ; l g l i ~ J

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, you think that, in the country, the State has the right to make the law to lay down what is a Muslim because the Constitution requires that the President has to be a Muslim, the Prime Minister has to be a Muslim? Or other way .........

Mr. Yahya Bakhtier: ........ or in other way I can put it that way ..........

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if they make it in accordance with the Injunctions of Islam?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 that means that they can make a law laying down what a Muslim is or who is not a Muslimin a negative form or in a positive form, and then the Election Commissioner, in the light of that law. can reject the nomination paper?

- CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADlANl GROUP DUEGATION 123

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Sir, while referring to the -+ $0~ : JF ,k Declarationof Human Rights, you have not relied on any Article of the Declaration of Human Rights, but only on the opinion of one of the draftsmen. Isn't it so?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Annexure-I is opinion of Dr. Charles M a l i of Lebanon. It is not any Article of ..........

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: d\, you have filed the Annexure.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Appendix.

Is it a fact, Sir, that your er of your community o r your

do not accept Mima Ghulam sort, as not Muslims, or Kailrs?

t r: I said 'not Muslims'; that's why I

bar: First I put that way you can

b: SO, according to you, they are not

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, now, you said that Mufti Mahmood has no right to say that you are not a Muslim.....

Mirza Nasir Ahrnad: And I have also said that I have got no right to call him a......

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: --.-.but you have in your..... I mean when I say 'you', I do not mean particularly you,......

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ---but leaders of Ahmadiyya Jamaat have called Muslinis who do not accept Mirza Ghularn Ahmad as a Nabi, as Kafir, as not Muslims, or pucca Kafir. I mean, to put it strongly......

-LJfl'LJli :JI/Cljf

Mr. Yahyn Bakhtiar: .....- no doubt. Isn't it so?

CROSS.U(AMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELeCATION 183

Sir, next quotation is:

This is from "Alfazal" June 1922, 26-29. I think it was by-weekly in those days.

members. ... . . . .

ctammk NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN

PROCEEDING

THE'SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA

Wednesday, the 7th August, 1974 -

The Special Committee of the Whole House of the National Assembly of Pakistan met in camera in the Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building). Islamabad, at ten of the clock. in the morning. Mr. Speaker (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair as Chairman.

- REClTATION FROM THE HOLY QUR'AN

3 5 0 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 171h A U ~ U . ~ , 1Yl4 B~AMLNATLON OP THE a

Mr. Chairman: Is Mr. Attorney-General prepared? Should we call1 them?

Mr. Yabyn BakhPar JAttorney-Ckruml of Pgkistw)Yes, Sir.

Mr. Chalnnan: They may be,calleQ

(The Delegation entered the Chqmber).

LKUSS EXAMINATION QFTWQADIANI GROUP DELEGATION

Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney-General.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: Mirza Sahib have you verified thal qumtion which I read out yesterday.

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The last question which I asked you and you were1.. . . . . . . . your information will be verified.

-etLL.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtir: P

t ttorncy-General prepared? Should

mqy-Qwcenl of Pg&stan)Yes, Sir.

Chqmber).

ADIANI GROUP

Sahib have you verified that

bed you and you were, . . - . . . . - Your

CRDSS BXAM~NATLON OFTHB PUADlANl GROUP DBLACATION 35 1

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please clarify that ..... Thank you

3 5 2 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OP P A K W A N (7Ul A u e l t . I974

lap1 few tLIt&l?eighty-three, eightyfour c&u+:

-&"&,l"lines of eighty-thme,

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CROSS EXAMlNA'llON OP

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CROSS EXAMINATION OF THe QUADIANI OROW DELEOATION 353

354 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th AYPUII. 1914 - CROSS EXAMINATION OF THE U

Mr. Yahya Bekhtlar: He is repeating the same'?

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repeating the same?

CWOSS E X A M I N X ~ O N OF THE QVADlANl GROUP UELEGATION 3 5 5

CKOSY EXAMINPXIUN Ur'l'W (

356 NATIONAL ASSWBLY OF P A K I Y ~ A N (762 AUWM. 1914

H A L ASSWILILY OF PAKISTAN [71h Augun. 1974

358 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th Auuu~t, 1974 CROSS EXAMMATION OF Tlfl

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CROSS EXAMMATlON OF THE QUAOlANl QROUP DF%EGATION 339

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360 NATIIJNAL W S k U t l L Y OF YAKIS7AN Lrm August. 1974

CROSS FXAMINATION OP THE Q

-bd,/ver~y J:,pgYk ..I - C

~ ~ y ~ 2 f ~ ~ ~ + ~ ~ ~ ~ 2 ? ~ ~ ~ & f ~ ~ & l " ~ & f 1 ~ ~ " : ~ ~ t ~ ~ ~ Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1 an

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l l LY OH YAXWlAN 118 AUEYSI, I974

CROSS ~XAMMATION OF THE QUADIANI CUlOUP DELEOATION 361

dd~-+&d.:~~/~tr;/ F -+ :=+ quolnt~on ,di'di:-11/tli/

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 1 am not volunteering to tell you what is meant ......

t h 362 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th Auw8~. 1974 CROSS EXAMMATON OF THEM

... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: -&&Jlptli/ asserted that you wen part of M

kefore ...... ?d&equa l :Jl;%$,k

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 1 'b@p~t~":~~/t~j/ Pakistan? ......

...... i$c!arification -0,+~bL7?0,6+ 7 &I J&JQ$~C? Mirza Noslr Ahm~d: 1

p. Yahya FPkhUar: Sir. I asked some questions about the +&fp@(?,atL separa t i s t t endency in Ahmad i s

Mr. Yehya BPkhllan Ab 46.

with regard to that there is a statement of Mi~za Bashir-ud-Din. Mahmud Ahmad. Before I ask about this statement, there IS an impression that before the Independence, the stand of your Jamaat ....... &ddb~,lJfi was that you are a separate entity, you have nothing to do with Muslims,, you are just like Christians or Parsees: but afler Mr. Yahya Bakhtlor: Tha Independence, you have taken the stand that you are part of

... Muslims or Muslim Millat or Muslim nation, but before that, I Mlrza Nasir Ahmad; ....... mean to say, if you know that and you can reply. With that Muslim League

background, I am reading out this .......

Mlna Naslr Ahmad: I do not know what you are refemng to, because I have never .......

Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: There is an impression that before Independence ......

Mr. Yahya BakhUar: Tha

Mna Naslr A h d : Betl

Mr. Yahya BakhUar:Befc

Mna Neslr Ahmad: Befi

-&&.L&L}:dlptl+ L - Mr. Yehye BakhUar: Be announcement that Pakistan b

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...... You said that you were a separate be e s t ab l i shebpu t it that wa: ....... entity like Christians and Parsees Ifully ......

-UH: Jl/'tli/ Mlna N d r A W : I th

I ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 17th Auyusl, 1074 CROSS EXAM~ATION OF THEQUADIANI GROUP DELEOATION 363

Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: ....... But after Independence you assertcd that you were part of Muslim Nation. Muslim M~llat, not

Mlrzs Naslr Ahmad: Not before the declaration of W s t a n ? ......

...... Mina Naslr Ahmad: Thecreation of Pakistan?

...... & .......... Independence 6 J} :,l;%gvk

-0~:~'l f tlj/

ir, I ask4 Borne questions about the aratist tendency in Ahmadis Mr. ~ a h y a Bakhtlor: About that time. '47 up to that time).

46. a atatemat of Mina Bashir-ud-Din, k about this statement, there is an purdence, the stand of your Jamaat ....... d f ~ f l l , ~ l ~ ~ ~ t f i g h t v & ~ J \ z o ~ : J ~ t\j/

entity, you have nothing to do with e Christian6 or Parsees; but after Mr. yahya BakhUar: That was ....... ken the stsnd that you are part of

...... or Muslim nation, but before that. I Mirza Naslr Ahmad: Shoulder to shoulder with the that and you can reply. With that Muslim League .......

Mr. Yahya BnkhCLar: That was after 3rd June. 1947.

I I do not know what you are referring Mlna Naslr Ahmad: Before the creation of Pakistan.

....... t Mr. Ynhya Bakhthr:Before the : There is an impression that before

M i m Naair Ahmnd: Before the creation of Pakistan.

- & ~ y ~ ' + & ~ \ : d ~ t l j / Mr. Yahys Bakhtlar: Before the announcement. Before the announcement that Pakistan had to become a real~ty. was going to

...... You said that you were a separate C ....... ......

be establ ishebput it that way-the 3rd June statement of 1947. I fully

Mina Nasir Ahmad: I think the imagination is too far

SATIOR\L ASSEhlRLY OF P,\KISTAN (7111 Aopun, 11171 CR~SS-EXAMINATION OF THE QAO

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c.0~~-EXAMINATION OF THE QADLANI <jROUr DEL=AnOY 4 9 1

516 NA'lIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 18UI AU~UII. 1976

3111 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF P A W A N [Sib Auew. 1974

C R O S S . ~ ~ ~ A T I O N OF W E QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 579

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590 NATIONAL ASSEUULY OF PAKISTAN L81h A u ~ u n . 1 9 7 ~ QUOTATIONS UNSUPWRTE

QUOTATIONS UNSUPPORTED BY ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS

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Mr. Chairman: Sarda resume his seat; and MI. Qun

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QUDTAllONS Lh'SUPWRTED BY ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS 591

Mr. Chairman: Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro to please resume his seat; and Mr. Qusuri also.

-cl;.~tdJ~~~P='+ & ' : ~ i ~ j c : ~ l t ~ Any honourable member who would like to say something? .

. . . . . . . . . . . . -7 !Y) b $ f ~ & , ~ ~ . -

Mr. Chairman: The House is adjourned to meet at 6.00 p.m.

[rile Special Committee adjoumd for Lunch Break ro re-assemble a~ 6.00p.m] L,~L.,.2yTyl~J'+ t b ~ (

[The Special Cornmittre re-assernbled afier Lunch Break Mr, Chaimlan (Suhibdu Furooq Ali) in fhe Chair.]

Mr. Chairman: Are we ready? They may be called.

-+ 114 /UI &I s, -6 j ~ j !+LP ,~hr ~LIYG,P They may enter at any time.

ri ,i p y : J / $ ~ J Y . Yes. Now they are -L 8 Y L y 1 *g $ o(: : (;C$ ck

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:omlng.

Yes, the AUorney-General.

Mr. Cldrmm: 1 would sa'

- CROSS-EXAMINATION OFTHE QADIANICROUP DBLECiTION 59.;

CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION

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Mr. Chairman: It would save us a lot of time.

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NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAK~STAN [W? AuguL 1974

Definition may filed. And that will be read as part of the evidence. Pan of the examination.

Mr. Yahga Bakhtiar: File as a document, Sir.

Mr. Chairman: Yes, file as a document. d d a t e 2bL fl

............ with date & d ~ / ~ $ ~ n n e x u r e ~ f

............ L,,~&r:z~/r~;f .. .. c d ; ,613 1~1~3 continuation LC Annexure : t$s t?

CROSS-EX AMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION 5<>5

596 N A T I O N A L ASSEMIILY O P PAKI-AN 18th Augusl. In4

CROSS-EXAMINATION OFTHEQADlANl GROUP DELMATION 597

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CROSS-EXAMMAmON OF THE QADlAHl GROUP DELEGATION 723

752 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 9rh A U W . 1974

Mr. Chairman: Ask the translation.

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-J.d>/3?yfc/l:~;r:~~k - Let it go on the record.

Mr. Chairman: u?'lust a minute. Let this Ayat be translated by rhe witness.

- d.' - J- *I; 6e7 ‘ f12 't ' d l J P ! , k ' :o tF~+k This 1s the question.

Mr. Chairman: Nowsthe witness can add the explanation.

CROSS-EXAMINATION O F THE Q

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Mr. Chairman : Then it need not be repeated. I t can be referred page so and so o f Mahzar-Nama yes, i t need not bc referred.

(Interruptions)

PROCRAMME FOR FlJRTHER SITTINGS 01' TllE COMMITTEE 85'.

Mr. Chairman: I know, on the Auomey-General, and on ihc witness also.

you a r e f t ~ j ~ h ~ i c a l Strain 8 9 (1. &: J$ $ well-acquainted with the facts, with the islaniic law, I am not.

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Three days Jelq L(J L, t l l b l fur& 7 17 UJ 2 : &* ,C?. earlier the members of the delegation will be informed. Thank you very much. And no proceedings have to be disclosed. The honourable members may keep silting.

(The delegation lefi the Chumher)

Mr. Cbairmsn: Yes, any honourable member who would

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The reporters are free, they can go, they can have recess.&

Now wc will meet asNatiosal Assembly on Monday at 6.00 p.m

(The Special Cornminee adjourned sani die)

888 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY Or: PAKISTAN 12aL Au:.. I914

944 NATIONAL A S S E m L Y OF PAKISTAN [2ah Aay.. I971 CKOSS-EXAMMATION OF THE C

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CHOSS-EXAMMATI<)N OF THE QADIANI GROUP VELEC'IATION 945

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954 KATICJWL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISThN [lmh Auy.. l 9 i l CROSS-EXAMVIA'I30N OFTHE p A I

Mr. Chairman: Yes, if w111 save a lot of lime or the House Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... . an andof the witness also.

Mr. Chairman: But if all the

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, I know, his valuable time. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Whe

I t ...... Mr. Chairman: Then, if it can be agreed between the witness

and the . - . . Mr. Chairman: But, Mr. A: consumed in reading the Hawnlaja

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. I requested Mirza Sahib wherever he considered necessary, he will speak in detail; otherwise he will just briefly say something about it and file it.

IM~. Chairman: And than we can cross over to the exami- nation, lest of the examinallon.

Mr. Chairman: If all the t Hawalajat then..... .

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I know the difficulty, but I want Mirza Sahib..--..

Mr. Chairman: Yes, it is upto the witness.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...... if he thinks necessary,...,

Mr. Yahya Bakbtiar: ...... then he will give in detail, othenvise he will briefly mention it.

I may ask the witness, if he likes. hc can file all the, all the wi-itten... ..

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but the th ing is, Sir , the Committee membcrs. ....

Mr. Chairman: Yes.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ..... will not be able to read e v e 0 document because the debate time is short. That is why I said that Mjrza Sahib should briefly expalin.... -

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, S questions......

Mr. Chairman: .-- . then, tht

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...- verification, he is giving reply. Ma think, one or two are left.

Mina Nasir Ahmad: o\ if -

Mr. Chairman: Because, f questions: one, that the particula admitted? If not admitted, then n explanation by the witness tha~ context.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sil before that if I am charged with e and the Majistrate asked me, I s thc some offence". Now, if Mirz; Hawalajat and other Hawalajat h

TIClN4L ASSEMBLY O f PAKISTAN IZOul AUK., 1974

: Yes, it will save a lot of time of the House 80.

htiar: Yes. I know, his valuable time

: Then, if it can be agreed between the witncss

khtiar: No, I requested Mirza Sahib wherever iary, he will speak in derail; otherwise he will thing about i t and hle it.

I: And than we can cross over to the exami- amination.

khtiar: No, 1 know the difficulty, but 1 want

I: Yes, it is upto the witness.

khtiar: ...... if he thinks necessary,......

, ~ \ : & , % ~ k

Sakhtiar: . . . . then he will g ive in detail. iefly mention it.

R: Yes. I may ask the witness, if he likes, hc le written......

Bakhtiar: No, but the th ing is , S i r , (he 9 ...

R: Yes.

..... Lakhtiar: will not be able to read eve'? the debate time is short. That is why I said ha' .briefly expalin..-. -

...... Mr. YahyaBakhtiar: and then file.

Mr. Chairman: But if all the

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Wherever he thinks, you know, that ,I . . . .

Mr. Chairman: But, Mr. Attorney-General, if all the lime is consumed in reading the Hawolajat then--.--.

Mr. Chairman: If all the time is consumed in reading the Hawalajat then......

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, the thing is that we ask ccnain questions.....

Mr. Chairman: ...... then, then....-.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...... and to those questions, after verification, he is giving reply. Most df them have been over now. I think, one or two are left.

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: L J ~ if you ...... -

Mr. Chairman: Because, for all Hawalajat, there were two questions: one, that the particular statement, which was made. is admitted? If not admitted, then no second question. If made. then explanation by the witness that it was given in such and such context.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I pointed out to Mirza Sahib before that if 1 am charged with an offence and I am taken to COLlll

and the Majistrate asked me, I say: "Otherj have also committed the some offence". Now, if Mirza Sahib goes on giving Sil-. Sycd's Hawalajat and other Hawalajat because Mirza Sahib said tlie same

956 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF I'AklSTAN IZOrIl Au:. 197.1 CIIOSS-WLAHTNATION OF 'TW. QADIAN

thing-----I mean that may be relevanr from h i s point o f view- but it will not justify this, nor will it expalin it , because h g i m Sahib, according lo them, held a very different position.

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: -....But, I think, 1 have not commitred any criminal offence.

. . no insinuation. I have just given an e x a m p l e , ~ d L / r ' . J ~ ~ Y ~ : and I brought myself in. I don? want to insinuate and hurt your reelings. I was giving an example that. for anything, you cannot say that "because others have done". That will not jutisy, tkat will nut expalin it.

Mr. Chairman: That is a question of argument.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I say I have pointed out onething.

Mr. Chairman: ...... we are talking of the procedure,

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib says, no that was ~lii :

background, t h i s was the history, from his point of view-..

Mr. Chairman:No, my only idc Iiouse .....

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know.

Mr. Chairman: ...... we do nM u honourable members. the witness and

Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: I am awn House valuable time of Mina Sahib but this is a very important thing......

Mr. Chairman: If. if. if we can :

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ...... 1 wi the committee should come to a very 1

Mr. Chairman: My only, m: written reply to Hawalajar can be file and the copies will be cyclostyled a That is my point.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I

alongwith the rcpiy, he can give a br better, because this is not evidence, a

Mr. Chairman: No. But if the

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, i f it i

Mr. Chairman: Yes. it is a writ

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: - - - - - i t wi beexplained.

'IONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN lUXh AU:.. 1914

that may he relevant from his point o f not justify this, nor will it expalin it. because g to them, held a very different position.

[mad: - - ..But, I think, 1 have not committed

. . just given an examp~e,C&d'.,L;%g+k

. . In. I don't want to insinuate and hurt your

an example that, for anything, you cannol say lave done". That hill not jutisy, that will not

That is a question of argument,

htiar: I say I have pointed out onething

we are talking of the procedure.

khtiar: Mirza Sahib says, no that was thc the history, from his point of view.---

Mr. Chairman:No, my only idea was to save the time of the House ......

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know.

Mr. Chairman: ...... we do not want to tax the patience of thc honot~nble members, the witness and cveryhody concerned.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am aware of the valuable time of the House valuable time of Mirza Sahib, and I am nlso getting tired. but this is a very important thing.. - .

Mr. Chairman: If, if. if we can minirnise.....

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: . - - . . I want every clarification so that the committee should come to a very fair decision.

Mr. Chairman: My only, my only point was that if the written reply to Hawalajat can be filed, it will he read in evidence, and the copies will be cyclostyled and given to all the members. That is my point.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that we doing, Sir . But if, alongwith the reply, he can give a brief clarification, I think that is better, because this is not evidence, and it is not inten'ogatory.

Mr. Chairman: No. But if (he witness says that this reply

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, i f it is a wlitten reply....

Mr. Chairman: Yes, i t is a written reply.

..... Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: i t will be pointed out. That it will be explained.

962 NATIONAL ASSEMBL.Y OF PAKISTAN [?ah Aug.. 1974 CROSS-EXAAIINATION OF THE OADIAl

Mr. Chairman : When, I think, the denial comes, there is no need of explanation.

if ..... dt:Jt%s,k - Mr. Chairman : When, when a fact is denied that it never

existed.. . . . . . . .

Mr. Chairman : There is no need of explanation.

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j you don't believe of i t$d& i yr'& : JV $,k

"Ahmad, a Massenger of " t k ~

"Ahrnsdayyat or theTrue Islamu-

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Mr. Chairman: This is sufficient. Now we go on to the next. (Pause

(Pause) :f ddl-@elf explwatary&bl

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: When, I think, the denial comes, there is no

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I : When, when a fact is denied that ir never.

I : There is no need of explanation

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n: This is sufficient. Now we go on to the nexl.

(Pause)

"Ahmadayyal or the True ~s larn"__J~ , ,~~r~bJ: J I / ~ I ~ /

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(Pause)

966 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 120L Aug.. I n 4 CROSS.PXAMLNATION OF THe QmIA

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I wonder. How do you, how can you estimate without there being any statistics to base your estimathn?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have estimated, Sir, that the Ahmadis are four million: they can estimate.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ..... I don't remember - I may be wmng

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d: I wonder. How do you, how can you being any statistics to base your estimation?

htiar: You have estimated, Sir, that the on; they can eslimate.

r: ..... I don't remember - I may be wrong

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CROSSBXAMVIIATION OF THE QAUlANl GROUP DELEGATION 967

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97 2 NATIONAL ASSEMR1.Y OF PAKISTAW 120th Auz.. 1V76 CROSS-EXAMINA'nON OF T H E QADI

(Pause

:'I.++ t,Q 2J LJ;

( 3 1 )

(Pause)

(Pause)

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Mr. Chairman. Sir, I am feeling tired.

Mr. Chairman: Can the witness come after 10 mlnutes of recess. or 15 minutes of recess?

d / ~ ~ ~ ~ L / : ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ . ~ r e q u u t - =&/:JP$,L? - - .+'!LYi/:J

Mr. Chairman: We want to. This i s . . - .

Mirza Naslr Ahmad: We meet tomorrow at 10.00 a.m.?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Tomorrow, there is a meeting, Spcnker is going Cabinet.

Mr. Chairman: If, if we......cither wc...--.if.--. no, we have t l '

give ;~llowance lo the witness---.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, hec

Mr. Chairman: No, no quesc there two proposals: Eithw we si after 15 minutes to start, and sit up t(

Mr. Yahya DakhUar: If, if Mil

Mr. Chairman: ...... if the wjtne

. .... .L.

Mr. Chairman: .... .he "ill be u

J1~.Lydyb7!+b1+f~& 6 f

Mr. Chairman: It is up to the the .-...

.,..;.,--Jf,J~)j~/r~~-&

hk. Chairman: lt was ......

-+J(oI~ dutyj dijc

hlr. Chairman: No, no ......

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, because he is tiled, we can't ...... , . . . . . ! J ~ ~ ? r . ~ ~ : J ~ ~ ~ k ..

, . Mr. Chairman: No, no question of continuing, though-. ... j,id/ .... J C ~ & : J ~ P L : I ~ / there are lwo proposals: Either we sit up to 10.00 or we give reccss,

afier 15 minutes to start, and sit up to 10.30 or, if . - - - ~ t . J ; P b ~ d d j ~ /

Ihmd: Mr. Chairman, Sir, 1 am feeling tired e : Can rhc witness come after 10 minutes of of recess?

-+O/MLJJ'

: We want to. This i s - - - .

I\hmad: iYe meet t o m o m at 10.00 a.m.?

khtiar: Tomorraw, there is a meeting, Speaker

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If, if Mirza Sahib ......

Mr. Chairman: .-... if !he rvjtness feels that he --.-

Mr. Chairman: . . . h e will be unable to, then we can brcak.

Mr. Chairman: i t is up to rhc witness, hecaose witness has the.- ..

W. Chairman: It was

Mr. Chairman: No, no

,,: ~ f . ,f we .... &her we.. ... if. --.no, we have LC1 b

L E n E R S FROM QADIAN GROUTS RE: SUPPLY OF 1'APES AND ADVANCE NOTICES OF QIESTIONS IN

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Mr. Chairman : Before they are called, two letters have been addressed to the secretary. National Assembly, by M i n a Mansul- Ahmed, Nazir-e-Aala. Sadar Anjumane, Ahmadiyya Pakistan, Rabwah. One for the supply of the tape, and the other. I will read it.

Of the tape, that. 1 have refused in any Chamber. At pmseiit i t cannot be granted to any person because our proceedings are confidential.

The House agrees with me?

Members : Yes.

Mr. Muhammad Haneef Khan : Sir, you dsed the words 'at p~esent'. 1 think, not at present, the tape of the Assembly commit be granted at any time.

Mr. Chairman : At any time. The order is that this time this q u e s t commit be Conceded.

Prof Chafoor Ahmad : Even proceedings should nor be given. Not only lhe tapes.

Mr. Chairman : The proceedings shall be given only to Lhe honourable members. which are ready, which yesterday. I said that they can collect the proceedings.

The Second letter, the operation portion. I need in the House :

"in any opinion, to facilitate the matter and the assist the Committee in reaching a just conclusion, which the Committee so earnestly desires and also in order to be fair to the parties concerned, it would be advisable if the written questions and given i n advance and their answers submined in writing. As a result of our experience in the first session in the Committee, we sincerely believe that had this procedure been adopted earlier, it would have

saved a lot of valuat not a criminal proc examination of a ac Committee is studyi~ religious beliefs 01 moment and only i~ the history of Islam. please convey ow F am sure, the Comn seriousness of the is!

1 would live to hear the A

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar : the Delegation has come to They wanted to be h e u d If th be present have and we wil points. Now, it is impassible t whenever we ask a question tl lor clarification. That would question 1 ask, that have to b give time nfter that and the written replies were to be U have come at all. We wuld interrogatory, which they cou thc point was than that they not possible it is physically i~ i n concerned, Sir, 1 am the fi as they wanted.

Now we are at the fag a wanted more to answer any $ by you and by the house. The questions they prepared, and this is not a reasonable questi

Mr. Chairman : Now, and the supplementarits are g

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: every subject. I tell t h m in a am going to ask r few quec

ADIANl GROUPS RE: SUPPLY OF TAPES NCE NOTICES OF QIESTIONS I N

CROSS-EXAMINATION P : Before they are called, two letters have been

tary. National Assembly, by Mirm Mansur . Sadar Anjumane, Ahmadiyya Pakis~an, supply of the tape, and the other. 1 will read i t .

I have refused in any Chamber. At plesent i t any person because our proceedings are

aneef W a n : Sir, you used the words 'at present, the tape of the Assembly commit

y time. The order is that this time this

d : Even proceedings should not be

proceedings shall be given only to the ch are ready, which yesterday. I said that

,the operation portion. I need in the House :

ion, to facilitate the matter and the assist the in reaching a just conclusion, which the

so earnestly dwires and also in order to be parties concerned, it would be advisable if the

and given in advance and their answers ng. As a result of our experience in the

the Committee. we since~ely believe that cedure been adopted earlier, it would have

saved a lot of valuable lime ol' the House. Afrc~. all, 11 1s nut a criminal proceedings or an ordinary legal cross examination of a accused, a individual or a pany. The Committee is studying a many serious mallel- involving religious beliefs of millions of peoplc ii in a _era\:e moment and only in the history vf Pakista~i but also in the history of Islam. I would, therefore, be grateful i f you please convey our request to the Steering Committee. I am sure, the Committee, realizing the gravity and thc seriousness of the issue, would grant our request."

I would live to hear the Attorney-General.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar : (Attolney-General of Pakistanj. Sir. the Delegation has come to the Assembly at then own requesl. 'They wanted to be heard. If they wanted to be heard, then they will be presenl have and we will and question lo elaborate ccrtain points. Now, it is impassible to send questions in advance because, whenever we ask a question there are five, six, ten supplernentarics lor clarification. That would mean that whatever supplcmcntary question I ask, that have to be given to then in writing. You will give time after that and they willsubmit writlen rcply. If the written replies were to be taken form then. then they world not have come at all. We could have sent a number of questions as jnterrogato~y, which they could have ansu'ered from Rahwah. But the point was than that they should clan@ the position. And it is not possible i t is physically impossible. Point as far as the hearing in concerned, Sir, 1 am the first person to give them as much time as they wanted.

Now we are at the fag end of this examination. Whenever thcy wanted more to answer any question, they have bee given the time by you and by the house. There was a break of Days. About fifteen questions they prepared, and answered those yesterday. So, I think, this is not a reasonable question nor is it practicable.

Mr. Chalrman : Now, I think. most of the questions are over and the supplementaries are going on.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only on three subjects. And, about every subject, I tell them in advance. That about Akhand Bharat, 1 am going to ask a few questions; about 'their Separatism' I am

CROSS-EXAMINATlON OFTHE Q*I

r"

' 2 I

the morning, the ob~ects to expcdite the matter and finlsh 11 as early

as wc can.

!J PI 7

SUGGESTION RE: MEETING OF THE STEERING COMMITTEE

Mr. Chairman: That is very necessary. I think, let the law Minister come. He promised to come at 7.30 after Maghib praym. Then we can fix a time.

This is r n y . - . . . . & J J ~ -H full day utilize JJIJrik_b &

thcn SteeringCommitteeshould C ~ L ~k&d/T& j9 4/rJ go into sesson and review the progress and give a decision

And ........ (Inlerruption)

. and decide the matter and tell me. .d*b&2b~ (;If I

They may be called.

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Malik Muhammad Akhtar:

Yes, they may be called.

-&LLS

' -LL> JGbfd 2 7 ,

( 7 7 ~ Delegmion entered the I

Mr. Chafrman: Yes, Mr. At

CROSS-EXAMINATION C DELEG,

SECRECY OF THE PROCXEDINGS

.&y; CJ. 01 @secret, @ l lp rocd ings =.

CROSS-EXAMINATION OFTHE QADIANI GRDlTP DELEGATION Y Y 3

who is the person j k L /4 r :i;C+ Y k

-+ ~ P b b ~ He is e i ther -d Messengerclerks

Malik Muhammad Akhtar: Wanted to say something Yl Yes, they may be called

(Tlle Delegation entered the Chamber. j

hfr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Attorney-General

CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI GROUP DELEGATION

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CROSS-EXAMMAllON OFTHB QADIANI GROUP VELE(;ATION 99')

CROSS-EXAMINATION OFTHE QADIANI GROUP DEWiATION 1 00 I

"2 & / repudiate -;J+ - - &L . . !d b lj/ 7: JP 3 ?k

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Mr. Yahya Rakhtiar: Yes, that, is what T rncan; I don't mean polltical activity; I never suggested that. . . . 2'' Field of missionary activity-'&,&,& : J f / t I>,/

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Mirzn Nasir Ahmad: This is from t h e concise Oxford Dictionary: "The field of missionary activiry"

"Ahmadiyya Mission in Isri Israel because you said this.. .. . .

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar :

Ahmadiyya Mission Mount Karma1 we HO&C, a library, a B also brings out a MO sent out to thirteen dil the medium of Arabi have been translated

"Some time ago, oul the mayor of Haifa, v points he offered tc village near Haifa, established Ahmadiy He also promised tha at Kababcer which notables from Hai. members of the con school. A meeting Before his return, I Visitors' Book.

Another small incid idea of the position 1 in 1956 when our 1

Sharil, returned to H

.-.lY,.nLno~Y..DL1 Yr r-th ,,>I ALY 11111 A I I ~ Y S ~ . 1974 LKUSS-tXAM1NATK)N OF THE UADIANI GROUP DELEGATION I I I O Y

akhtiar: Yes, that, is what I mcan; I don't mwn never suggested that. . . . onary activity-'&,&,& :2'l/t lj,

e ---- L.:>/A (dly 1 & dl foreign mission"

Ahmad: This is from the concise Oxrord dof missionary activity"

"Ahmadiyya Mission In Israel" because 1 said: "The mission in Israel because you said this.. .. . . .. ..."

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar :

Ahmadiyya Mission in Israel is situated in Haifa n t Mount Karma1 we have a mosque there, a Mission ~ o u s e , a Library, a Book Depot, a school. The Mission also brings out a Monthly entitled All-Bushra' which is sent out to thirteen different countries accessable through the medium of Arabic many works of prophet Messiah have been translated into Arabic through this Mission."

:dg&~& JI,~

"Some time ago, our missionary had an interview with the mayor of Haifa, when, during the discussion on many points he offered to build us a school at kababeer a village near Haifa, where we have a strong and well established Ahmadiyya Community of Palestinian Arabs. He also promised that he would come to see our Mission at Kababeer which he did later, accompanied by our notables from Haifa. He was duly received by the members of the community and by the students of our school. A meeting had been to welcome the guests. Before his return, he entered his impressions in the Visitors' Book.

Another small incident, which would give readers some idea of the position the Mission in Israel occupies, is that in 1956 when our missionary, Chaudhry Mohammad Sharif, returned to Headquarters.. . . . . . . . . . . .."

Lf "Separatist tendency" &/ri~~?& c/I : &k

:J'?J fl+j~]

"Ahmadis form a separate community fron the outside Musalamans." 1

-+ &J fin1 d d ~ ~ ~ c l i n g Q di 7

"The year 1901 was the year of census. The Prom~sed Messiah issued a notice to his followers askir. them to get themselves recorded in the census pagers. tndcr the name of 'Ahmadia Musalarnan'. This was, thczefore, the year when, fo r the flrst time, he differen~iated his followers from the other Muslims by the name of 'Ahmadiya"'.

:.+ "injunctions to Ahmadis regarding Marriage."

-~~/I~~,:J&+c?J,~,I.~HJ$IJ&=?

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "the same year, with the community and to promulgated rules reg and forbade the Ah maniage to Non-Ahrr

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: lnj

Mina Nasir Ahmad: Nc

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The Honounble members may keep sitting.

(The &legation l e . the Chamber).

Mr. Cbdmmw The House is adjourned to meet at 7.30.

Thank you v a y much.

7le Special Commit~ee. aajoumed/or Maghrib Prayers & mea at 7.30 p.m

The Special Com'nee. re-assembled after Maghrib Prayers. Mr. Chaimian (Sahibzada Far- Ali) in rhe Chair.

TIME FOR CROSS-EXAMINATION

Mr. C-n: So far as the first .........

Ssiyid A b h H W n Gsrdui: kept standing.

So far as the fist point is concerned, we cannot sit for an definite period only on this ground that we am pl.cparing mcord for the generations we cannot sit for one year or thnc months or two months.. .........

1 038 NATIONAL MSEMOLY OF PAKISTAN 121>1 Auaust. 197.1

I TlONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (211~ AYFUII. 1974

NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [?Is1 August 1974

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 28:

"...........(On whom be peace), and those who only restore and re-establish the law after mankind have forsaken it; as, for instance, Elyah, Isaiah, Ezekiel Daniel and Jesus (On all of whom be peace). The prophet Messiaha (on whom be peace) also claimed to be prophet like the laner, and asserted that as Jesus was the last khalifa (Successor) of the Messiaha dispensation, he was the last khalihof the Islamic dispensation".

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:

"... ........ Just as he was tl dispensation he was the dispensation. The Ahmadiyyi with respect to the other so which Christianity occupied 1

Judaism."

Does it not conclusively r different religion compared to Ja religion compared to other sects?

Please mark the words: "He asserted. M i m Nasir Ahmad: No.

biirza Nasir Ahmad: He was the Khalifa. Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This I

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:

" ........... and assented that just as h s u s was the last khalifa (Successor) of the Mosaic dispensation, he was J' comparison R s,/& p-fk the last khrlifa of the Islamic dispensation."

----'I$ footing'; :Zl/C. 12,

:JL d ' k ~ ~ i ~ d . ~ l p t I;, "Muhammad (on whom

AI / being this the like of M necessary that the Messi not m l y b e from among re-establish and pmpag came with nonew law. I

-----$A . :Jivlakj v

On whom be peace), and those who only re-establish the law after mankind have

as, for instance, Elyah, Isaiah, Fzekiel Daniel (On all of whom be peace). The prophet 1 n whom be peace) also claimed to be prophet

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar:

" ........... Just as he was the last khalifa of the Mosaie dispensation he was the last khalifa of the Islamic dispensation. The Ahmadiyya Movement, therefore, occupied with respect to the other sects of Islam, rhe'same position which Christianity occupied with respect to the other sects of Judaism."

and asserted that as Jesus was the last ssor) of the Messiaha dispensation, he was Does i t not conclusively show that as Christianity i s a

the Islamic dispensation". different religion compared to Judaism, Ahmadiyyat is a different religion compared to other sects?

ords: "He asserted". t d: He was the Khalifa,

d assented that just as ~ k s u s was the last ssor) of the Mosaic dispensation, he was of the Islamic dispensation."

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Mina Nasir Ahmad: No.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This I want you to clarify.

"Muhammad (on whom be peace and blessings of God), being this the like of Moses (on whom be peace), it was necessary that the Messiah of lslamic dispensation should not only be fmm among hjs followers but should come to re-establish and propagate the Qunnic law just as Jesus came with no new law, but only confirmed theTorah......"

1052 N A T M N N ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN Izlrt A u p n . 1914

".......I have already indicated that one of the functions of a Prophet, who is not the bearer of a new law, is to sift all errors and misinterpretations which may have crept into an existing religious system owing to lapse of time. and this in itself is a great task. To discover and restore that which had been lost is almost as great a task as to supply that which is new. But we believe that the promised Messiah (on whom be peace) had a much higher mission to perform. In order, however, to understand what that mission was it is necessary first to understand clearly our position with regard to the Holy Quran.---

what I wanted to show you,Sir. ,$ i / & s c r i k Lis,R is that M i n a Bashimddin Sahib, in his book or lecture draws the parallel that Miiza Sahib has got the same position with regsrd to Islam or Prophet Muhammad which Jesus Christ had with regard to Moses or Judaism.

Then it is also stated -and you may have read it and you may understand R batter than I do --that Jesus Christ had made some changes as you just--.-.

- - L ' L L ~ ~ L ~ o s e s 2 (j, basis A i 1

a Prophet wi thout(d d?.&~ut k i n g a Ghair Sharai Nabi

his own Law, he founded a new Ummot t o it a fact or not? He foundcd a new religion i s it a fact or not? And if you draw the parallel, does it not amount to the fact that Ahamadiyyat is a new relgion?

Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The author of this book drew no parallel, he refemd to the Quramic Verses.

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N*L ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN P [zlrt Augun. IY74

dy indicated that one of the functions of o is not the bearer of a new law. is to sift all

which may have crept into li'ws System owing to lapse of time, and

discover and restore that n lost is almost as great a task as to supply

that the promised whom be peace) had a much higher mission In order, however, to understand what t h a ~ it is necessary first to understand clearly our regard to the Holy Quran......

Sahib, in his book or lecture draws ihe got the same position with regard to which Jesus Christ had with regard to

ed -and you may have read it and you than I do t h a t Jesus Christ had made

t......

L ~ o s e s J 1 @ . 9 , b a s i s A$d13 i ,i

I d>.&~ut being a Chair Sharai Nabi

a new Ummnt -to it a fact or not? He i s it a fact or not? And if you draw the unt to the fact that Ahamadiyyat is a new

mad: The author of this book drew no Quramic Verses.

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134U N A ~ O N A L ASSEMBLY OF PAKISIAN ~ n r a nug.. IUI+

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We m a t at 10.30

Mr. Chairman: Half Past Ten.

Mr. Yahya Bnkhtlar: A1 half Past Tcn wc will meet,

Mi- Nasir Ahmd: 11.00 -.+ (K&

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Mr. Chairman: The Delegation can come at 1 l.M)? at ll.M).

Mr. Yahya Bakhtier: At 11.00.

CROSS-EXAMMATION OFTWE RADIAN1 GROUP L?ZWCAT,TYIN 1341

(The Delegation lefi rk Chamber)

Mr. Chdnnan: 'Ihc honourable members will keep sitting.

Reporters can go; They can leave also.

[The Special Commirtee of the Whole House subsequenrly adjourned to meer or half pnsr fen of fhe clock, in rhe morning.

on Sarurday, the 24th Augur, 1974.1

14m NATIOK.\I. ASSEMBLY OF PAKJSTAN 124th Aug.. I,,;,

CROSS-EXAMINATION O F T M QAD~ANJGRVVF'UEL~UAI ION I W I g.. 19.

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1436 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 124b Aug.. 1Y7q

Mr. Yahya Bakhtlar: 5 d, there is no need of it. 1 think we will finish in one hour's time.

Mr. Yahya Balrhtiar: Let us continue no further.

Mr. Chairman: $&, for finalizing it, then all [he members must make up their mind for anything whatever. if any umissions are left out.

Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That we will think now; and la mc know if they want to ask any question.

Mr. Chairman. Yes. So, this break will be utilised for that purpose.

Thank you very much.

And we meet at 7:30.

The Special Conminee adjournedjor Maghrib prayers to meet at 7:30p.m.

The Special Commi'ttee re-assembled ajier Maghrib prayers, Mr. Chai- (Sahibzadn Farooq Ali)

in the chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION OFTHEQADIANIGROUP DELEGATION 143 1

1684 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 1278 August 11x4

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CROSS.U[AMINATION OF THE LAHOW GROUPDELEGA~ON 1685

1686 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN p71h ~ v g u r ~ 1974

CROSS-EXAMMATION OF THE LAHORl GROUP DELEGATION 1687

1690 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN [271)1 A u w l 19)4

CROSS-EXAMINA~ON OF THE LAHORI GROUP DELEGATION 1691

CROSS-EXAMINATIONOF THE LAHORI CROUPDELECATION 1693

I710 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN (27th A v g v r ~ 1974

Ch. Jabangir Ali: Mr. Chairman. Sir, on a point of explanation. Janab, the witness is here to answer the questions of the Attorney-general and, if there is no question, then. I thiik, hc need not explain any thing. Therefore, he should hear the question of the honourable Attorney-general and then he shouId speak in explanation or in reply of that question Sir. If there is no question, then he is not supposed to give any speech or explanation.

Mr. Chairman: The Attorney-general will raise this objection, if any.

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CROSS-EXAMINATION OF THE lAHORl OROUPDELEOATION 1711

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1712 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 127th Augusl. I974

CROSS.EMMINATION OF THE lAHORI CiROUPDELEtATION 1713