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EMS RULES TASK FORCE MEETINGAugust 26, 2015 MEETING
801.538.2333Garcia & Love
Pages 1 to 4
EMS Rules Task Force Meeting
August 26, 2015
1:04 p.m.
Location: Bureau of EMS and Preparedness
Room 425 - Highland Building
3760 South Highland Drive
Salt Lake City, Utah
Reporter: Susan S. Sprouse
Garcia & Love Court Reporting and Videography
Susan S. Sprouse, CSR/RPR
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A P P E A R A N C E S
Guy Dansie
Suzanne Barton
Jess Campbell
Jean Lundquist
Shari Hunsaker
Jay Dee Downs
Jim Guynn
Dean York
Tami Goodin
Jolene Whitney
Jeffry Grunow
Lauara Snyder (telephonically)
Teresa Brunt (telephonically)
Regina Nelson (telephonically)
Randy Wilden (telephonically)
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1 August 26, 2015 1:04 p.m.
2 * * *
3 GUY DANSIE: We can go ahead and start. I feel
4 bad there's not more task force people here. Maybe they
5 are having -- we'll go around the table really quick.
6 I'm Guy. You know, I think -- I don't know if
7 we need to do introductions. I'm here. We've got
8 Suzanne, Jess, Dean York. Jolene Whitney is here with the
9 Bureau. Shari Hunsaker is here. She's on our agenda to
10 present on 426-7 and Susan is here for our court recorder.
11 Jay Downs is on his way. We have -- who do we have on the
12 phone? We have Lauara --
13 SUZANNE BARTON: Lauara and Teresa.
14 RANDY WILDEN: Randy Wilden.
15 GUY DANSIE: Randy Wilden. Good. Is there
16 anyone else on the phone that we missed? Okay. Let's go
17 ahead and we'll get started.
18 I think -- I'm just looking at the agenda. We
19 had -- since we all know each other, I don't feel we need
20 to do introductions or anything. I did want to introduce
21 Shari. She's probably an unfamiliar face to Jess and Dean
22 and some of the folks on the phone.
23 Shari is over our data compliance program -- or
24 your official title -- I'll let you speak to yourself.
25 She's usually not at a loss for words. So she'll explain
Page 4
1 who she is and then the purpose and some of the changes in
2 this rule and then we'll look at those.
3 SHARI HUNSAKER: For the recorder, I'm going to
4 spell my name. It's S-H-A-R-I H-U-N-S-A-K-E-R. I am the
5 data manager for the Bureau. And in that role I am
6 responsible for ensuring data compliance and administering
7 the EMS data systems, including pre-hospital and trauma
8 registry along with licensure and certification.
9 I asked to be included in the agenda today to
10 speak to you about a proposed change to Rule 426-007. And
11 the change, the proposed changes start in Section 2 under
12 pre-hospital dataset No. 2.
13 It has come to the Bureau's attention that
14 agencies are not consistently reporting a patient or
15 turning in a patient care report every time they are
16 dispatched. If the call gets canceled en route or no
17 patient is found, some agencies are choosing not to submit
18 a patient care report. That leaves us with an incomplete
19 dataset, as does the next issue that I was going to
20 address in this section. With mass casualties what we
21 have found is if an agency responds to, for example, a bus
22 accident, they may pull all of the passengers on the
23 bus -- yeah, don't worry. He didn't throw that at me.
24 GUY DANSIE: Just for those on the phone, Jim
25 Guynn has just walked in and dropped his name on all of
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1 us.
2 SHARI HUNSAKER: Name dropper.
3 In the case of a mass casualty, if there's a bus
4 accident, the EMS agency staff will go on to the bus and
5 will poll everybody on the bus to see whether or not
6 anybody is hurt and may have them sign a roster of some
7 sort indicating that they don't need medical care, but
8 they never prepare a patient care report documenting their
9 interaction with that individual with the patient
10 disposition if the patient refused care. Again, that
11 leads us -- leaves us with an incomplete dataset and it's
12 impact, I think, can be appreciated if you think about the
13 fact that we are underreporting the use of our EMS
14 resources if they are not reporting that they were
15 dispatched -- because once they are dispatched and on
16 their way to a call, even if it gets canceled en route,
17 especially in our rural agencies, they've been on the go
18 for so long, that's a lost resource, where they could have
19 been going to another call if -- and I think it's
20 important for us to be able to measure that.
21 I also think that it's important for us to be
22 able to document the number of times that EMS responds in
23 a mass casualty case and they document all of the people
24 on the scene and we have a formal record that these three
25 or four people may have been transported and these 20
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1 people refuse care. Rather than a roster that floats
2 around in the agency and that data never gets into the
3 State.
4 And so my proposed verbiage change for 426-7-2,
5 No. 2, is emergency medical services providers shall
6 submit the data to the department electronically in the
7 National Emergency Medical Services Information System,
8 parenthetically NEMSIS format for every dispatch instance
9 regardless of patient disposition. In cases of mass
10 casualty, data is required for every victim on scene
11 whether care was given or refused.
12 GUY DANSIE: Okay.
13 SHARI HUNSAKER: I struck the rest of that and
14 have moved it down into No. 5. Do you want me just to
15 continue with the changes --
16 GUY DANSIE: That's fine.
17 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- in the section, or do we
18 need to talk about these changes as we talk about them?
19 GUY DANSIE: Any discussion? Everybody okay
20 with that?
21 RANDY WILDEN: This is Wilden.
22 GUY DANSIE: Go ahead Randy.
23 RANDY WILDEN: If we need to talk real world for
24 a second, we've had enough MCI's that we're familiar
25 enough with them. We will have patients picked up by who
Page 7
1 knows who, bystander on the side of the road and pack them
2 off to a hospital. We will have the ambulance pick up a
3 couple of patients and drive away from the scene before
4 we've ever had any opportunity to even see that patient.
5 We will have patients who are -- will get up and family
6 members will arrive and take them off. I don't -- I -- we
7 will have a very hard time trying to get compliance with
8 that for MCI. I just don't see that happening.
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: I think that we could certainly
10 work with the verbiage. I don't expect you to turn in
11 reports for individuals that you never interacted with.
12 I'm just talking --
13 RANDY WILDEN: Okay. I'm saying --
14 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- about the people you
15 interact with.
16 RANDY WILDEN: I'm just saying for every victim
17 on scene, we don't have lots of victims, we'll never ever
18 have an opportunity so something needs to go in there for
19 patients that we physically do an assessment or something
20 to be able to provide that data.
21 SHARI HUNSAKER: How about -- Randy, how about
22 if I strike "on scene" and change the word to "assessed"?
23 RANDY WILDEN: Something like that makes it
24 something more -- we're more able to try to meet that
25 standard. "On scene" is just not workable for us.
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1 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. Thank you for that
2 feedback.
3 JIM GUYNN: I think I agree strongly with Chief
4 Wilden. There are many times that you may or may not make
5 contact with somebody involved if law enforcement is
6 already there. And they say there's nobody hurt in this
7 car, you know, we may not necessarily even make contact if
8 we have other patients that are requiring immediate care.
9 So maybe rather than assess some sort of verbiage that if
10 you establish a professional contact with them, and I
11 don't know -- I don't know what the correct word is. If
12 you -- if you make contact with somebody and you are
13 actually going to obtain a release, a release at the
14 scene --
15 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. That's what I'm --
16 that's what I'm trying to get to --
17 JIM GUYNN: Right.
18 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- is instead of filling out a
19 roster and not completing a patient care report, if the
20 agency personnel went to the time and trouble of getting
21 somebody's signature on the statement of release, whether
22 it was a blanket roster or an individual release, that
23 needs to be reported to the State.
24 JIM GUYNN: Correct.
25 SHARI HUNSAKER: That's the heart and sole of
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1 the intent here.
2 RANDY WILDEN: We're okay with reporting that if
3 we actually have patient contact. So whatever verbiage it
4 takes that we have patient contact and, you know, like
5 create a professional contact or whatever verbiage works
6 for everybody, we can -- we can buy into that one too.
7 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. So data is required for
8 every victim with whom EMS had contact? Because I know
9 assessments are something completely different in the
10 NEMSIS world.
11 RANDY WILDEN: The problem is they really are
12 not a patient. They may not be a patient. They may
13 refuse whatever. So regardless, patient may not be the
14 right term to use.
15 SHARI HUNSAKER: What about individual?
16 RANDY WILDEN: Okay. That is probably better.
17 How about the rest of them? How do you feel about the
18 verbiage?
19 LAUARA SNYDER: This is Laura. My only sense
20 is -- other than a few patients, this is when we had 40
21 patients on a bus, but there are a lot of patients who
22 don't want to sign anything and refuse services. So I'm
23 concerned when we go to fill out the NEMSIS Polaris report
24 all we may have is a name, period. And, you know, then
25 we'll write in, of course, the scene of the accident, that
Page 10
1 sort of thing, but sometimes all we can get is something
2 to sign, like you said, a refusal of services totally.
3 But I think what this state may be getting at is
4 they want to document in some way how many people are in
5 that accident still at the scene when the EMS arrives.
6 SHARI HUNSAKER: For legal purposes --
7 LAUARA SNYDER: Is that correct?
8 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. And for us to have a
9 complete dataset to be able to report accurate data, I
10 need to be able to collect accurate data.
11 Now one thing that -- above and beyond this rule
12 change, as we progress in our purchase of a new
13 pre-hospital data system, I am developing a short form,
14 for lack of a better term, for mass casualty instances
15 only where you'd be able to just list the name of all of
16 the patients who had refused care at that scene.
17 Now, however your own -- if you are not using
18 the State's data system for reporting, that will be of
19 limited use to you, but your vendors may be able to work
20 with you in creating something like that. So if you
21 indicate it is a mass casualty incident, they'd give you
22 some way of capturing the names of everybody so that it
23 can be submitted in a NEMSIS XML file to the State.
24 JIM GUYNN: If somebody refuses to give you
25 their information, as Lauara may suggest that they don't
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1 want to sign it, if that's just articulated in the
2 narrative, I mean, you can only report what you have.
3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. But there is a
4 pertinent negative for patient name called "not
5 available".
6 JIM GUYNN: Sure. And that's what I am saying.
7 You know, if you don't have it --
8 SHARI HUNSAKER: You don't have it.
9 JIM GUYNN: -- you just articulate that on the
10 form.
11 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- you still have to -- but if
12 you just put it in the narrative of another patient, that
13 doesn't help me. So you are saying that you'd have to
14 create a whole narrative, and I'm saying that in the short
15 form we could come up with something that would be
16 acceptable. If patient refused care, there is no
17 narrative and it's not going to fail XML validation if you
18 provide me --
19 DEAN YORK: And use signature?
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Uh-huh. If it's a NEMSIS
21 value.
22 JIM GUYNN: We still want to make sure to
23 articulate that on the narrative just to protect the
24 agency.
25 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right.
Page 12
1 JIM GUYNN: I mean, we -- I think it's probably
2 maybe a foregone conclusion that in the EMS field we write
3 paper on every person we contact, whether they give us
4 their information or not, I think that's probably --
5 SHARI HUNSAKER: And the only question is
6 whether or not that paper is getting -- has a way of
7 getting to the State. And with one of our large urban
8 agencies they are just completing a roster. And that's
9 not getting to the State. And I have no way of enforcing
10 them without administrative rule behind me.
11 JIM GUYNN: I don't see it --
12 SHARI HUNSAKER: So while most agencies may be
13 doing it just fine --
14 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Isn't that an educational
15 issue? Yeah. Isn't that an education issue as well as a
16 legal? I mean if you -- especially a disaster -- the
17 rules are different -- but if you go to the scene and you
18 have somebody that you talk to and do something about and
19 you don't document that, you leave yourself wide open.
20 JIM GUYNN: Uh-huh.
21 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, this agency is protecting
22 themselves legally by having the patient's sign off on a
23 roster that they refused care, but then they are never
24 translating that roster into patient care reports that get
25 sent into Polaris.
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1 GUY DANSIE: One thing -- just reading this too,
2 in my mind, do we need to define what a patient is or a
3 victim? We got this different phrase in there.
4 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, the last iteration was
5 individual.
6 GUY DANSIE: Okay.
7 SHARI HUNSAKER: So we changed it from victim.
8 We thought about patient.
9 GUY DANSIE: Because there could be, like, an
10 argument if they really are a victim, or if they really
11 are a patient.
12 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. So now it's individual.
13 GUY DANSIE: Okay. So I'm going to change that
14 in the text?
15 SHARI HUNSAKER: Uh-huh.
16 JIM GUYNN: Well, you're not going to be able to
17 say for every individual on scene. I mean, that's going
18 to include witnesses, bystanders --
19 SHARI HUNSAKER: Individuals --
20 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So it's going to include who
21 EMS had contact with.
22 JIM GUYNN: Right.
23 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. I like that. For every
24 individual with whom EMS had contact, whether care was
25 given or refused.
Page 14
1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: What?
2 DEAN YORK: I just think of a call in Orem where
3 a couple's motorcycle is parked in a parking lot. They
4 are not near it. It tips over. Go back to their
5 motorcycle. Someone thinks it's an accident. They call
6 911. EMS shows up. So now is that a call? Should they
7 have information on those people, even though --
8 SHARI HUNSAKER: It is a call. You were
9 dispatched. EMS was sent. And then the patient
10 disposition would be "no patient found".
11 DEAN YORK: Okay.
12 SHARI HUNSAKER: Because sometimes you get
13 dispatched, and it might be a homeless person and they've
14 left the scene before you arrive. Same scenario.
15 DEAN YORK: Okay.
16 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So that's the short form you
17 are trying to come up with?
18 SHARI HUNSAKER: The short form I'm coming up
19 with would be for mass casualties.
20 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Oh.
21 DEAN YORK: But you might not have the time to
22 be more in depth, is that correct?
23 SHARI HUNSAKER: I don't want somebody to have
24 to sit down and do 55 patient care reports and mark all of
25 the assessments normal and all of the exams normal.
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1 That's what I'm trying to come up with is a way of -- by
2 default, if it's a mass casualty and they refuse care, we
3 would default these values in for you.
4 Should -- are we okay with No. 2, then?
5 GUY DANSIE: I think so. Anybody have any --
6 I'd say good rule.
7 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. The crux of the change
8 that I want to make in No. 3 is this. Historically we
9 have listed all of the data elements individually within
10 the administrative rule that we are requiring to be
11 submitted. They are all NEMSIS defined elements. But
12 within the NEMSIS data dictionary, some elements are
13 national, meaning that they are sent over to the NEMSIS
14 tack up at the U. Others are listed as optional or
15 suggested.
16 The State has adopted a handful of those
17 optional data elements that we want to have submitted to
18 us. I'd like to ask this group for your feedback on how
19 you would feel if we referenced the NEMSIS data
20 dictionary? Right now we're still using version 2.2. And
21 then stated that in addition to all national elements in
22 that data dictionary, that we require submission of the
23 following additional data elements. It would shorten up
24 the list and would be easier to maintain.
25 The -- I'm going to be back here in a little
Page 16
1 while -- in a couple of sessions to talk to you about the
2 trauma data rule, but -- and we're moving towards the same
3 thing.
4 The NEMSIS data dictionary is rather static. It
5 doesn't change very often. As you can see, the version
6 that we're currently using was published 10 years ago.
7 As we work on the transition to NEMSIS version
8 3.3 and version 3.4, it's become a little bit more
9 dynamic. But the NEMSIS tech has agreed that they will
10 not be doing major releases which require changes to the
11 data dictionary anymore often than every four years. So I
12 don't anticipate having to come in every year and ask to
13 change --
14 GUY DANSIE: Major reference.
15 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- the reference to the data
16 dictionary.
17 I would prefer that so that we list the
18 additional elements instead of the complete dataset.
19 Researchers, the general public, everybody has access to
20 that NEMSIS data dictionary. And the State has no custom
21 elements that we have created.
22 Our official line is we adopt the NEMSIS data
23 dictionary with no exceptions. Other states create custom
24 elements, but Utah never has.
25 So my No. 3 is just the department adopts by
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1 reference the national highway traffic safety
2 administration NHTSA, Uniform Pre-hospital Emergency
3 Medical Services, EMS, the Dataset version 2.2 published
4 in 2005.
5 And then when we are ready to accept version 3
6 data, we would have to amend the rule to say -- and then
7 we could establish the timeline, how long are we going to
8 accept version 2 data and when are we going to cut that
9 off and only accept the version 3 data.
10 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Does it have to be that
11 specific or can you just say the current version of?
12 GUY DANSIE: Well, I know -- just to answer your
13 question, that's one thing I was going to point out, is it
14 actually does need to be specific.
15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Okay.
16 GUY DANSIE: I know that the AG's office,
17 Brittany, and Lyle before that, says you have to be able
18 to have a specific version and date. And also it has to
19 be accessible for the constituents, meaning that we have
20 to have some way that they can obtain that information
21 easily so we can post a link on our website, something
22 like that that would help with that.
23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So you said that you want to
24 have -- does this one in here have -- we're going to do --
25 so if you get a new version you'll say we'll accept 2.2
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1 until July 1st of blah, blah, and after that it will be --
2 SHARI HUNSAKER: Nationally --
3 JEAN LUNDQUIST: -- 3.0?
4 SHARI HUNSAKER: Nationally the NEMSIS tact is
5 going to accept version 2.2 formats until December 31st,
6 2016. At which point they will only accept version 3.3.4
7 or version 3.4. The State, at our discretion, can accept
8 version 2.2 data. We can cut off version 2.2 data earlier
9 than December 31st, 2016.
10 GUY DANSIE: Do we want to -- do you want to put
11 something in there about it?
12 SHARI HUNSAKER: I'm not ready to address that
13 until I have a new system to stand up.
14 GUY DANSIE: Okay.
15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Sounds good to me.
16 SHARI HUNSAKER: Any feedback, then, on No. 3?
17 TERESA BRUNT: Hey, Guy, this is Teresa. Can I
18 just ask a general question? Is there anyone that truly
19 is accountable for gathering that data? Is each EMT or
20 paramedic required to do that, or is there -- in that mass
21 casualty setting, or do we all do it?
22 GUY DANSIE: It would fall in the licensed -- it
23 would be the licensed provider, the agency, that's
24 required to do that.
25 TERESA BRUNT: So all of them -- I mean, if you
Page 19
1 walked into a mass casualty and there are 11 victims, they
2 all gather that same information?
3 GUY DANSIE: They should.
4 TERESA BRUNT: Who's accountable for gathering
5 it?
6 JAY DEE DOWNS: The EMTs.
7 GUY DANSIE: Well, the EMTs on the scene, but
8 they represent the provider, the licensed provider.
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: And Lauara --
10 GUY DANSIE: That's the way we administer that.
11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Lauara, I don't have a problem
12 with the concept of the roster, but the data entry has to
13 be done. It can't just be limited to I have this roster
14 that the EMTs had everybody sign. If your EMTs came back
15 to your station with that roster and you had somebody else
16 create the PCR, that would be fine. But the --
17 LAUARA SNYDER: Well, in the real world, I think
18 that's going to be hard to get that information, but
19 that's just me.
20 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I think that's -- goes to the
21 point of you do whatever you can.
22 JAY DEE DOWNS: You do the best you can --
23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You get whatever you can. You
24 gather whatever data you can from the people and that's
25 the best you can do, right?
Page 20
1 LAUARA SNYDER: This is Lauara, and I have a
2 question. So this mass casualty incident that we're
3 talking about, there's an area where you have first
4 responders, or in the area, first responders. Then you
5 have the ambulance EMS provider come. So essentially then
6 the first responder agency and also the ambulance service
7 agency will have -- should have the same number of people
8 reports for those people, right?
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: Unless first responders --
10 LAUARA SNYDER: Well, the declinations?
11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Unless the first responders got
12 the declination of treatment from other people on the
13 scene and they had already left before the ambulance
14 arrived.
15 LAUARA SNYDER: I'm just saying -- so, for
16 example, our bus rolled over in Wendover. We had 40
17 people. The first responders came -- this is hypothetical
18 if we had them -- the first responders came to help us and
19 the ambulance came, the first responders, their list would
20 mirror our list of people who refused.
21 SHARI HUNSAKER: Not necessarily.
22 LAUARA SNYDER: Is that correct?
23 SHARI HUNSAKER: Not necessarily. Let's say
24 that the first responders got there and some people had
25 already declined care to the first responders before your
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1 ambulance crew arrived.
2 LAUARA SNYDER: Right.
3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Then the ambulance crew never
4 interacts with that person, so you've got 40 people on
5 your first responder's list and only 38 on your ambulance
6 crew's list because two people left the scene after they
7 declined care from the first responders.
8 LAUARA SNYDER: Right. I understand for the
9 ones who left the scene, but the first deal people on
10 scene, I would imagine my EMTs are still going to go over,
11 talk to them, even though they may have signed a release
12 with the first responders because they are still hanging
13 around the scene and we don't know, maybe their condition
14 has gotten worse. I'm just saying --
15 SHARI HUNSAKER: If you interact --
16 LAUARA SNYDER: -- two times anyway.
17 SHARI HUNSAKER: There might be duplicate
18 entrees.
19 LAUARA SNYDER: Okay.
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Just like there's an intercept
21 en route to the hospital. I have more than one EMS agency
22 plus the first responder agency reporting on that same
23 patient and that same incident.
24 LAUARA SNYDER: Okay. Thank you.
25 JIM GUYNN: So is Polaris capable of sorting
Page 22
1 that out? Here's the example. We're a QR agency. We
2 respond out. We create our patient report in Polaris and
3 submit that. And then our provider, our transportation
4 provider agency, either Gold Cross or Hurricane, whatever,
5 they also do another report.
6 SHARI HUNSAKER: That is correct.
7 JIM GUYNN: So it wouldn't duplicate the data
8 necessarily. Those two reports would tie back together?
9 Or how do we -- how do we make sure we're on --
10 SHARI HUNSAKER: On the QR -- on the QR patient
11 care report, your patient disposition would be treated,
12 transfer care, because you transferred care to the
13 ambulance.
14 JIM GUYNN: Correct. Okay.
15 SHARI HUNSAKER: Then if the ambulance
16 transported them, it would either -- it would be treated
17 and transported by EMS or they might pick up treatment and
18 then release the patient.
19 JIM GUYNN: So we don't need to coordinate their
20 agency case number with our agency case number?
21 SHARI HUNSAKER: No.
22 JIM GUYNN: Okay.
23 SHARI HUNSAKER: But in most current systems if
24 you put in an incident date and a patient's name and birth
25 date, it will give you the option of copying the
Page 23
1 demographic information from one PCR over to another
2 because they are the same incident. But each agency
3 follows their own incident number nomenclature. And they
4 would be separate patient care reports.
5 GUY DANSIE: Makes sense.
6 SHARI HUNSAKER: Any other questions before we
7 move onto No. 4?
8 All -- the only change in No. 4 is that the last
9 sentence of Section 2 that I struck has been moved down to
10 the bottom of Section 4.
11 GUY DANSIE: Cut and paste.
12 SHARI HUNSAKER: Cut and paste. And then we've
13 got renumbering through the rest of the document. I --
14 and this is one that will probably stimulate quite a bit
15 of conversation.
16 In our current world, EMS agencies are required
17 to submit their data to the State within 30 days of the
18 end of the month in which the incident occurred. In
19 reality, that gives an EMS agency up to two months to
20 submit a patient care report. And while the EMS agency
21 leaves a paper copy of their report in the ER when they
22 transport a patient --
23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Not anymore, right?
24 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- there are other users within
25 the hospital system that need access to that data in a
Page 24
1 more timely fashion, namely the trauma registrars.
2 There has been a recommendation made by the
3 trauma user group that we bring to this group the
4 proposition that we shorten the timeframe for data
5 submission. So that what I've written down here is that
6 patient care reports would be supported with -- reported
7 within 14 days of the incident date.
8 I realize that that is going to be -- it may be
9 a problem for smaller volunteer based agencies, but I've
10 also heard from agencies that would be defined exactly
11 that way, that their standard operating procedure is that
12 if you go on a call, you do not leave the shop until that
13 report has been input.
14 It would certainly make my job as data
15 compliance supervisor, or manager, or witch, whichever
16 term you care to use, a lot easier. Because right now
17 I'm -- I can't go after an agency for noncompliance for
18 two full months. And it makes it difficult. Because
19 right now I'm working with agencies to catch up six months
20 worth of data. It would be a lot easier for me to measure
21 and assess compliance if those patient care reports were
22 being reported within 14 days of the incident.
23 For those agencies using a third-party vendor
24 that does not automatically upload their data for them,
25 like Zoll does not, it's still -- instead of doing it once
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1 a month you'd just be doing it twice a month. With the
2 benefit of if the person that does that for the agency
3 happens to be out on the first of the month and forgets
4 about it and it gets behind, now I'm only two weeks behind
5 instead of a full month behind in my data collection.
6 JEAN LUNDQUIST: What are your agency's
7 protocols or policies for completing ECR? Do you have --
8 like it has to be done --
9 DEAN YORK: Ours is just that. It's -- you
10 don't leave until it's done. So --
11 JAY DEE DOWNS: You don't go off shift first
12 time --
13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Oh, okay. It's in the
14 computer?
15 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. That goes in -- ours goes
16 into Image Trend, Image Trend transfers it over to
17 Polaris.
18 RANDY WILDEN: Randy Wilden here. Somebody can
19 help me if I'm missing the point here.
20 I have an accident on January 1st and I have
21 till the 14th of January to submit that PCR, right?
22 SHARI HUNSAKER: The 15th, yes.
23 RANDY WILDEN: I have a car accident on the
24 2nd of January. I now have until the 15th to submit that
25 PCR.
Page 26
1 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yes.
2 RANDY WILDEN: That means I'm going to be
3 submitting every -- essentially every day, if I have 14
4 days from the date of the incident rather than a 15-day
5 window, if I have to do it within 14 days of the incident,
6 that means every day I'm going to be submitting, unless
7 I'm missing that terminology.
8 JEAN LUNDQUIST: That's true.
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: I would say that on January
10 the 15th you would upload your data for everything between
11 January 1st and the 14th. And then on January 31st, you
12 would upload your data for the remainder of the month and
13 you would be in compliance. So however we need to reword
14 this --
15 RANDY WILDEN: Part of the problem for us is
16 getting the information out of dispatch. We -- we are
17 getting that information about every two weeks from
18 dispatch so that we can go into the PCR and confirm all of
19 the information that we receive from our firefighter EMT
20 on scene and fill in any of the holes that they haven't
21 provided that dispatch has. And right now we're not going
22 to get that information any sooner.
23 It -- it -- you know, if we are saying submit it
24 every 14 days in a block, fine, but there's not going to
25 be any way we can be compliant in that in the environment
Page 27
1 we're in right now.
2 SHARI HUNSAKER: Randy, do you agree that you
3 could submit it more frequently than 60 days after the
4 accident or after the incident?
5 RANDY WILDEN: We're trying to submit 30 to 35
6 days. It takes us a couple of days at the end of 30 days
7 to get all that information, again from dispatch. Yeah, I
8 mean we could submit smaller blocks. That's not what that
9 rule rewrite is saying. It's saying -- you know, that --
10 the way it's written, it says every day I have to be --
11 within 14 days I have to submit, which means every single
12 day I have an event, 14 days later I'm going to have to
13 submit a block of data.
14 SHARI HUNSAKER: And that was not --
15 RANDY WILDEN: That's the way it's written.
16 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right, but that is not -- that
17 is not my intent. So I am open for rewriting it.
18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You could put "must submit
19 bimonthly" or something. You know must be --
20 RANDY WILDEN: Yeah, there's got to be a better
21 way. But there's also got to be a little leeway.
22 The problem is, if it's under my control, we
23 would certainly do it more often. But it's not. I have
24 someone else that I have to depend on for that
25 information.
Page 28
1 LAUARA SNYDER: This is Lauara. I have a
2 question. When we have our EMS report, well, I guess it's
3 not a question, it's more a statement. When we do our EMS
4 reports, we do them at the end of our calls. When we're
5 dispatched, we are given a timeout time from dispatch.
6 So -- and maybe I'm doing it wrong, and everyone else is
7 verifying if the call was with their EMS center, but we
8 don't. And I can see where if Randy is saying that, you
9 know, he has to get those reports from dispatch before he
10 can complete a EMS report, that's a problem, but I've
11 never done that.
12 We complete our EMS reports at the end of the
13 call. If we need some information that maybe we didn't
14 hear when dispatch sent us out saying, you know, you are
15 dispatched, this is the time, okay you are back in
16 service, this is the time, the dispatch gives us that.
17 And so -- am I missing something?
18 RANDY WILDEN: We're -- we've been instructed
19 not to call the dispatchers or dispatch, to wait for the
20 printed, the emailed version of those reports. We're
21 trying to submit through our system 100 percent accurate
22 so that we don't get any reject. If Shari is okay if we
23 submit the PCRs incomplete, we'll do that. And then we
24 can submit again when we get the rest of that data from
25 dispatch, but I can promise you, we're not going to be
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1 current every 14 days getting that information that we
2 need.
3 SHARI HUNSAKER: You can always --
4 LAUARA SNYDER: I did. I --
5 SHARI HUNSAKER: I'm sorry.
6 LAUARA SNYDER: No, keep -- I'm not seeing some
7 of the other people that are -- are there other agencies
8 that don't receive their dispatch times when they are
9 called out so that they can do their PCR reports.
10 JAY DEE DOWNS: Ours are live. Ours are
11 almost -- you come back and you have all the times right
12 then and there. We also have the program voice loggers so
13 we can pull our own times off there as well.
14 DEAN YORK: Would the change get Randy
15 ammunition now to go back, though, and say we have to have
16 this information back faster by statute?
17 MS. NELSON: This is Regina. I'm here. I just
18 was joining the conversation late. Sorry. Randy, I'm
19 here if you need to talk about getting something faster.
20 You have mobile access, and head track stuff and radio log
21 access and you guys have firehouse. If I need to do
22 something more, let me know.
23 CASSANDRA: Regina, this is Cassandra. We don't
24 have access to be able to go in and look at our reports
25 and access. All we've looked at is line data.
Page 30
1 MS. NELSON: Are the radio logs mobile?
2 CASSANDRA: Oh, we can't look them up in the
3 tab.
4 MS. NELSON: I set everybody up for mobile. You
5 guys should have access to your radio log and mobile. Tom
6 Wilson has it. And I set it up for qualified users.
7 RANDY WILDEN: Tom has told us several times he
8 has that access and we have not had that, the setup.
9 MS. NELSON: It's a universal. Everybody's fire
10 access has access to radio log. It's universal.
11 GUY DANSIE: Is this a Tooele problem?
12 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah.
13 RANDY WILDEN: We'll go back and look at it.
14 MS. NELSON: Let me know if there's anything
15 else you guys need.
16 CASSANDRA: We're getting them about every two
17 weeks definitely right now. So if we could get them maybe
18 every week instead that would help too.
19 MS. NELSON: That should work, two on, off two,
20 on two, so -- and she's on today. I could ask her to send
21 them more frequently.
22 GUY DANSIE: Thanks Tooele County. Maybe -- I
23 don't know how widespread this problem is. I do meet with
24 the 911 Committee on the 15th, I believe, of September.
25 It's the 15, 16th, something like that. It's a Tuesday.
Page 31
1 I could discuss it with that group if there's an issue
2 widespread with dispatch. I don't know Regina would
3 probably know that.
4 JAY DEE DOWNS: We've actually got ours hooked
5 up so it automatically downloads. So we don't need to do
6 anything else.
7 GUY DANSIE: It does it for you?
8 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. As soon as they open up
9 Image Trend, they go in report. It automatically
10 downloads it into that. So the technology is out there,
11 if that's the problem.
12 SHARI HUNSAKER: So getting back to the rule --
13 this is Shari -- getting back to the rule if we address
14 the verbiage so that it's not -- it's very clear that
15 there is no expectation that you were uploading data
16 daily, could we at least move in the direction of
17 shortening the timeframe and with the support of our
18 dispatch centers get that information in more timely?
19 And Randy, you can always go into a report that
20 you've already submitted and edit the data and resubmit
21 that and it just comes in as amended. It doesn't
22 duplicate the previous patient care report. It just will
23 flag that it's been updated.
24 JAY DEE DOWNS: The problem is --
25 RANDY WILDEN: Yes, Shari, I know that and we're
Page 32
1 okay doing that if you're okay with this. That's what I'm
2 saying.
3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, as long as it does not
4 fail XML validation, you are fine.
5 JAY DEE DOWNS: The problem is --
6 RANDY WILDEN: As long as you're fine with
7 having holes in them, we're okay with that. We've tried
8 to have 100 percent submission. We're trying to do it as
9 accurate as possible, and so we've waited for these backup
10 records so we can go in and, quite frankly, firefighters
11 are always exact and accurate -- not. So we've been
12 trying to be accurate by backing up that information.
13 If you're okay with us submitting and then
14 coming back in and updating, we're going with that. I'm
15 okay shortening up that window, but the 14 days of the
16 event doesn't work.
17 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. Thank you for that
18 feedback. And I do want to tell you how much I appreciate
19 your careful attention to detail in submitting accurate
20 data. Oh, that all agencies followed your lead.
21 What I can suggest is that if you put in your
22 best guess for the times because they are all required
23 elements, and if you leave a time blank, it will probably
24 fail XML validation. If you put in your best guess and
25 then have to go back in and update it, that would be okay
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1 too. But it sounds like you've got a potential solution
2 in the works with your dispatch center. So we just need
3 to focus our efforts now on changing the verbiage so that
4 the submission guidelines are clear.
5 JAY DEE DOWNS: One of the things you need to be
6 really careful of legality wise is going back in and
7 amending reports because if you ever have a problem where
8 you get a report summoned and all of a sudden now you're
9 going back in and changing times and stuff, it looks like
10 you're doctoring the report.
11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, if you make the edit and
12 add a narrative as to why you are doing it, you'd be
13 covered.
14 JAY DEE DOWNS: Not really.
15 SHARI HUNSAKER: In medical records that would
16 be sufficient.
17 JAY DEE DOWNS: In medical records but not in
18 court of law. That's what I'm basing mine on. We've been
19 down this road before.
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay.
21 GUY DANSIE: For -- just a suggestion instead of
22 14 days, should we say the first and 15th of each month,
23 something like that?
24 SHARI HUNSAKER: That would be fine.
25 DEAN YORK: You still achieve the same thing.
Page 34
1 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. That would be fine.
2 GUY DANSIE: All data be current.
3 JAY DEE DOWNS: My question is what agencies are
4 you having trouble with this already? Is there
5 something -- when you say you've got agencies having
6 trouble with six months, why did it get to the six months?
7 I mean, do we need to do the enforcement things on these
8 guys? Why is it so far out? Are they big agencies? Are
9 they small agencies? Is it just an education thing? What
10 is it?
11 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's a very complicated issue.
12 It was exacerbated by my prolonged medical absence after
13 my back surgery and the very many hats that I wear. When
14 I did an audit the first part of this month, I had 25
15 agencies out of compliance. And there are more headaches
16 and problems than can be addressed by administrative rule
17 at this point.
18 For example, I found out that UFA has record of
19 500 more records for September of 2014 and their system
20 than got uploaded to Polaris. But just looking at the
21 numbers, I have no way of knowing that. I see I've got
22 several hundreds of records from you one day, it's more or
23 less consistent across the 12 months.
24 There has been no reconciliation process in the
25 past for us to verify that the number of reports in your
Page 35
1 native software equals the number of reports in Polaris.
2 That's something that I have to address completely
3 different.
4 In some of our Image Trend clients, if you have
5 one record that fails XML validation, it backs up all of
6 your other submissions.
7 JAY DEE DOWNS: It doesn't let anything else go
8 through?
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: It doesn't let anything else go
10 through until that one record is repaired. And so with
11 one of our large Salt Lake County agencies, I had received
12 no submissions since May 15th because of this one record
13 that had an incident number of one and the XML requirement
14 is that it be at least two characters long.
15 They went in and fixed that and I got all of
16 their data back up. But Image Trends protocol is to send
17 the email to the agency and wait until the agency fixes
18 it.
19 GUY DANSIE: Right.
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: And so --
21 RANDY WILDEN: Randy Wilden here.
22 SHARI HUNSAKER: Let me finish my thought,
23 Randy, before you --
24 RANDY WILDEN: I thought you were done. I'm
25 sorry.
Page 36
1 SHARI HUNSAKER: No, that's fine -- before you
2 add your comment.
3 So if we shortened this up to the first and the
4 15th, then I'd be able to identify those gaps in a much
5 more timely fashion.
6 The reason that some of these are six months
7 out, I own that. That's me. But it would certainly be to
8 the advantage of the hospitals that you are serving if we
9 could shorten up the timeframe.
10 Randy, I'm done.
11 RANDY WILDEN: Okay. I appreciate where you are
12 at trying to get data submitted because that's the same
13 boat I'm in trying to gather everything to get it to you.
14 And I don't have a problem if we have two submission
15 windows, but I do have a problem with us trying to do --
16 legislate an agency that won't do their job when, in fact,
17 hold up the grant money, send the director out, do
18 something. This just feels to me like a shotgun approach
19 to a high-powered rifle problem.
20 But I do -- I understand where you are coming
21 from and how you want to fix it, but I just think
22 legislatively fixing it probably is not the correct way
23 all the time. I am done.
24 SHARI HUNSAKER: If we -- thank you. I am
25 working with our compliance unit and will remain closely
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1 associated with them. When an agency continually refuses
2 to respond to my requests for data submission, then the
3 compliance unit will become involved. And I have used the
4 withholding of grant funds to get certain large urban
5 agencies to pay attention to 30,000 records that had --
6 not applicable for incident county. So I use all the
7 tricks of the trade but the compliance unit is tied by
8 administrative rule. They can't enforce something that
9 isn't covered by administrative rule. So this isn't our
10 only solution, but it's the stepping stones that I need so
11 that we can have a more proactive approach.
12 JIM GUYNN: Shari, I think I have a question --
13 I think I do have a question.
14 SHARI HUNSAKER: I think I have an answer.
15 JIM GUYNN: Talking about the 1st and the 16th,
16 the -- let's say that the 1st of February you would
17 actually be reporting the dataset from the 1st of January
18 to the 15th of January; is that correct? And then the
19 16th of January to the 31st of January would be on the
20 15th of February.
21 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right.
22 JIM GUYNN: Okay.
23 SHARI HUNSAKER: So we can specify that in rule
24 and just say incidents that, you know, occurring from the
25 1st to the 15th of the month are due to the State no later
Page 38
1 than the 20th, or whatever you want to do.
2 JIM GUYNN: Because I --
3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Or, you know, two weeks out.
4 JIM GUYNN: Right. I just understood -- I mean
5 with Randy's concern as well, now all of a sudden it's
6 like if you had the 1st and the 15th, are you responding
7 on the 16th of January for the 15th?
8 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right.
9 JIM GUYNN: They still may not have that data.
10 SHARI HUNSAKER: Let me think about this. So if
11 an incident occurred between January 1st and January 15th,
12 it would be due by January 31st.
13 JIM GUYNN: Correct.
14 SHARI HUNSAKER: Or 30th. If it occurred
15 between January 15th and January 31st, it would then be
16 due by February, right?
17 JIM GUYNN: 15th.
18 SHARI HUNSAKER: 15th.
19 JIM GUYNN: Yeah. And I guess that's just the
20 assumption I made. I don't know how to make it clear, but
21 --
22 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right.
23 JIM GUYNN: -- so you're not the --
24 SHARI HUNSAKER: I'm taking advantage of Jean's
25 presence here. Representing our trauma centers, would
Page 39
1 that shorten the timeframe enough to be beneficial to you?
2 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Oh, yeah. I mean, two weeks
3 is -- I mean, that's perfect if you can get it within two
4 weeks.
5 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay.
6 JIM GUYNN: Does that work?
7 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, our issue is getting
8 finished sheets from hospitals so we can complete the
9 report and some control.
10 JAY DEE DOWNS: You mean the demos? Is that
11 what you are talking about?
12 JESS CAMPBELL: We have two facilities in Utah
13 County that do not provide, do not feel it's required of
14 them to provide patient finished sheet by the time our
15 personnel leave. So it adds another layer of issue for
16 us.
17 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, because our
18 administrative rule only requires that they provide you
19 with patient outcome data.
20 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, and we're actually not
21 required by rule to provide the hospitals any information
22 either.
23 SHARI HUNSAKER: Actually you are.
24 JESS CAMPBELL: So -- not -- not as far as our
25 written reports are concerned.
Page 40
1 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's in here somewhere. I'll
2 find it.
3 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You report to the State?
4 JESS CAMPBELL: We report to the State but not
5 to the receiving facility. We can --
6 SHARI HUNSAKER: I know it's addressed
7 somewhere.
8 JESS CAMPBELL: I just went through this with my
9 billing agency. We can take them in and say here they
10 are.
11 JAY DEE DOWNS: You updated patient condition?
12 JESS CAMPBELL: It's amount.
13 SHARI HUNSAKER: For each -- this will become
14 Section 12. "For each patient transported to a licensed
15 acute care facility or a specialty hospital with an
16 emergency department, each responding emergency medical
17 services provider unit that cared for the patient during
18 the incident shall provide a report of patient's status
19 containing information critical to the ongoing care of the
20 patient to the receiving facility within one hour after
21 the patient arrives at the receiving facility in at least
22 one of the following formats: NEMSIS XML or paper form."
23 JESS CAMPBELL: So then what needs to be backed
24 up with that is again to be able to allow us to be able to
25 complete our closeout loop is we need -- because the
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1 general attitude by some of the bigger facilities, um,
2 don't care. It's not -- it's not a priority.
3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay, then No. 13, "For each
4 patient transported to a licensed acute care facility or a
5 specialty hospital with an emergency department, the
6 receiving facility shall provide at least the following
7 information to each emergency medical services provider
8 that cared for the patient upon request by the EMS
9 service -- the EMS provider; A, the patient's emergency
10 department disposition; and B, the patient's hospital
11 disposition."
12 I would propose adding and renumbering so it
13 goes A, B, C. And A would be the hospital face sheet with
14 patient demographic information.
15 JESS CAMPBELL: That would be huge. Absolutely.
16 GUY DANSIE: Let me change that.
17 JAY DEE DOWNS: That would be a good move.
18 SHARI HUNSAKER: Score.
19 LAUARA SNYDER: This is Lauara. I have
20 something, if you don't mind. On No. 12 where it talks
21 about receiving facility within one hour after the patient
22 has arrived, um, sometimes we can give them the paper copy
23 when we are at the hospital, but if our internet cards
24 aren't working on the ambulance, we can't send it --
25 electronic version till we're back in our shop, and that
Page 42
1 means two and a half hours later.
2 SHARI HUNSAKER: I understand that, Lauara, but
3 the rule does specify that you can either give them a
4 paper form or an electronic form within one hour. So I
5 think we've got you covered.
6 But before we jump ahead to that, I know I got
7 us way late, I'd like to back up and go through the rest
8 of this in order.
9 GUY DANSIE: Okay. Do you want me to capture
10 this part that you -- just --
11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Would you please?
12 GUY DANSIE: What did you say, just so I got it?
13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Are you going to put --
14 SHARI HUNSAKER: The patients --
15 GUY DANSIE: Sorry.
16 SHARI HUNSAKER: In English. Demographic
17 information.
18 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Are they screaming HIPPA? Is
20 that the problem?
21 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah --
22 GUY DANSIE: Is that -- that's it? Just that?
23 SHARI HUNSAKER: Let's ask Jess. Is that
24 enough? Because it -- right now it's just upon request.
25 Do you want to put in a timeframe? Like we've got with --
Page 43
1 you have to give them the patient care report within an
2 hour. Do you want the face sheet within a certain period
3 of time?
4 JESS CAMPBELL: I think that within 24 hours
5 should give them plenty of time.
6 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay.
7 JAY DEE DOWNS: What are they claiming, Jess?
8 What are the hospitals saying?
9 JESS CAMPBELL: Just that it's not a priority
10 for them.
11 JAY DEE DOWNS: So they are not saying, like, we
12 can't give it to you because it's a rule? Is it an IHC
13 facility?
14 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Is it they just don't have
15 time?
16 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, IHC is primarily --
17 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, we've got some problems
18 with those guys too. And finally we're able to curb it.
19 SHARI HUNSAKER: In following this conversation,
20 I would add to that "to provide at least the following
21 information to each emergency services provider that cared
22 for the patient within 24 hours of request."
23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So what -- where's the meat
24 behind that, putting that in there for the hospitals? I
25 mean --
Page 44
1 JAY DEE DOWNS: What if they don't do it?
2 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah. I mean is that --
3 SHARI HUNSAKER: I'm going to sick you on them.
4 JEAN LUNDQUIST: -- is this going to be the
5 regulating body for the hospitals?
6 SHARI HUNSAKER: No.
7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Because that's great to say,
8 but I don't think it's going to change anything because
9 the hospital -- I --
10 SHARI HUNSAKER: Although, I am -- I am the data
11 steward over the ED dataset as well.
12 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Okay.
13 SHARI HUNSAKER: The Bureau has that onus and
14 that falls to me. And so I do have some regulatory chops
15 through a different administrative rule that governs the
16 ED data submission.
17 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right. But you're talking -- I
18 think you're talking -- from what I've heard,
19 Intermountain facilities, their big freakout is the whole
20 HIPPA. You know, they don't understand HIPPA very well.
21 So they think that they can't give this and that and that
22 because of HIPPA requirements. And so, you know, I don't
23 think putting it into rule is going to change that
24 philosophy for them.
25 SHARI HUNSAKER: We also -- we do have a letter
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1 that Paul Patrick wrote several years ago that could be
2 distributed by EMS agencies to hospitals or to EMS
3 agencies stating that if they cared for the patient, they
4 could exchange that information without violating HIPPA.
5 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I know. I think you are
6 barking up the wrong tree. I don't think you are talking
7 to the right people to get it changed.
8 JEFF GRUNOW: I agree.
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: Putting it here -- putting it
10 here is for the mental health and wellbeing of the
11 agencies at this point in time just to give them something
12 that they can fall back to. But I agree with you, it is
13 not the panacea that it will magically happen now because
14 it's in administrative rule.
15 LAUARA SNYDER: And this might be a question for
16 Heather, and I don't think she's there, but can the Bureau
17 and through these rules can we dictate to other agencies
18 or organizations, because are the hospitals under the
19 Bureau of EMS that if we write a rule, that they have to
20 abide by it?
21 SHARI HUNSAKER: Some of them are, yes, they
22 are.
23 GUY DANSIE: It's in the statute. If they
24 receive patients --
25 JOLENE WHITNEY: All of them are. They are
Page 46
1 either designated as a trauma center or they are
2 designated as a resource hospital.
3 SHARI HUNSAKER: That was from Jolene Whitney.
4 She's far enough from the speaker, I'm not sure you heard
5 her. But we can include that in our designation visits,
6 could we not?
7 JOLENE WHITNEY: Uh-huh.
8 SHARI HUNSAKER: And if they are not providing
9 that information, then their status as a designated or
10 resource hospital would be in jeopardy.
11 GUY DANSIE: Correct. If they receive patients
12 by an ambulance, we have authority.
13 JAY DEE DOWNS: Hey, Jolene, are they designated
14 like everybody else is?
15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yes.
16 JAY DEE DOWNS: So could this be like -- could
17 this be like a black mark on there redesignation?
18 JOLENE WHITNEY: Uh-huh.
19 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, that's what I just said.
20 JAY DEE DOWNS: So if they -- I'm just
21 processing it.
22 GUY DANSIE: He's been to the dentist.
23 JAY DEE DOWNS: I just don't know and -- I don't
24 know.
25 SHARI HUNSAKER: Now I've nailed more than one
Page 47
1 hospital on data submission and data compliance and other
2 issues before. I mean, it's not -- I don't go out and do
3 the designation visits, but my feedback is sought. And
4 when I -- I can gather the data.
5 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think personally with the
6 episode we went through with them, I think if maybe a
7 little pressure from the top came down, they would
8 probably submit and start submitting them. I think right
9 now they're just saying that's just another step we don't
10 want to do.
11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: What is the expectation, that
12 they give you a copy while you are there in the ER? And
13 that's what they are not doing, they are not willing to
14 do?
15 JAY DEE DOWNS: If they do that, the guys go
16 back and report right off the bat.
17 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right.
18 JAY DEE DOWNS: But if they do that -- like, say
19 for example, you take a patient in there, you don't have a
20 name or anything, then they go back to the station and
21 then what happens is they go off shift, now you are four
22 or five days; now we're chasing them down. Now you are
23 going back to the hospital saying we need the demographics
24 and IHC Hospital says, nope, you are going to have to go
25 to Salt Lake and get it. So now you are chasing it out of
Page 48
1 Salt Lake to get a demographic that happened four days
2 ago. So if you don't get it when you get right at the
3 ER --
4 DEAN YORK: You are hit.
5 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, you are chasing it through
6 the woods.
7 SHARI HUNSAKER: So what I am hearing is that
8 there is room for improvement on both sides of the
9 communication aisle. You know, and hopefully as we
10 regionalize our EMS system, that it would open up those
11 channels of communication so hospitals and EMS agencies
12 will come to understand that they are all members of the
13 same team and they are all trying to provide the best
14 patient care possible and that there's no reason that it
15 need be an adversarial type of relationship.
16 JESS CAMPBELL: No, but because of their
17 unwillingness to provide the information, it puts our
18 people in the position of having to ask questions that
19 creates the perception that you are not about patient
20 care, you are about my insurance coverage. And that's --
21 has nothing to do with it. It's the fact we can't get
22 that information --
23 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right.
24 JESS CAMPBELL: -- in a timely manner from the
25 hospital, that our personnel are now having to start
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Page 49
1 asking for, or ask somebody, you know, a family member for
2 who's your carrier, you know, some starting point.
3 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, and as far as that goes,
4 again, you can always put in a pertinent negative that it
5 was not available, but ideally I'd like to get the
6 hospitals and agencies working together to share the data.
7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You have to bill.
8 JIM GUYNN: You know, the other thing is too is
9 if you are --
10 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, you do have -- if you are
11 billing, that's true.
12 JAY DEE DOWNS: If you look at the dataset and
13 you want your dates, if you are chasing a report through
14 Salt Lake because you didn't get the demographic, you
15 easily -- you could be easily a month out. Seriously.
16 TERESA BRUNT: This is Teresa. I'm having a
17 hard time with that. Who are you asking? Are you calling
18 the emergency room, or who are you looking --
19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: No. It's got to be medical
20 records, don't you think?
21 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. It goes back down through
22 medical records and stuff because you have to go --
23 this -- now that's the one IHC hospital we've dealt with,
24 we've had to get it out of Salt Lake.
25 TERESA BRUNT: You can always call me.
Page 50
1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, see I think that's
2 fixable.
3 JESS CAMPBELL: So we'll put in rule here "Call
4 Teresa."
5 JAY DEE DOWNS: Day or night.
6 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, it's in administrative
7 rule now, Teresa.
8 TERESA BRUNT: Okay. Let me reach out to my
9 medical records people and say, hey, what's up with this?
10 Because I can't imagine why that information wouldn't be
11 available.
12 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, I think that's a
13 procedure thing that we can fix. I think that's --
14 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think we finally got it fixed
15 and it basically -- what gave ours a snafu is they changed
16 the operation. They changed it to totally paperless.
17 SHARI HUNSAKER: I have an idea for where you
18 were --
19 JAY DEE DOWNS: And that's what's like, well, we
20 have a paper trail.
21 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- after that period EMS
22 dataset.
23 JAY DEE DOWNS: So they finally figured out
24 where to go to another place and get it, but it was quite
25 a process for a while.
Page 51
1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So it's the I Center.
2 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah.
3 TERESA BRUNT: Well, I Center has a hit for most
4 of the region, yes. So I mean, who do you want me to send
5 feedback to you guy, or to who?
6 JAY DEE DOWNS: To you Guy? Do you want it to
7 come back to you?
8 GUY DANSIE: Sure. That would be good.
9 TERESA BRUNT: Okay.
10 JAY DEE DOWNS: Because I know our billers had
11 to chase them down through Salt Lake, and it's absolutely
12 a nightmare for him.
13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Okay.
14 SHARI HUNSAKER: Incidence occurring between the
15 1st and 15th of a calendar month shall be submitted no
16 later than the last day of the month.
17 GUY DANSIE: On the last day of the month?
18 SHARI HUNSAKER: Uh-huh.
19 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah.
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Semicolon. Incidence occurring
21 between the 16th and the last day of a calendar month
22 shall be submitted no later than the 15th of the following
23 month.
24 GUY DANSIE: Does that work?
25 SHARI HUNSAKER: Can everybody review that and
Page 52
1 tell me if -- and I'll read it for you, Randy, because I
2 don't know if you guys have video or not.
3 Back up to the proposed No. 5, we've worked on
4 the verbiage for the submission. So it now reads,
5 "Emergency medical services providers shall submit NEMSIS
6 EMS incident data elements for each patient care report
7 within 14 days" -- we're striking that 14 days.
8 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. So "Shall submit NEMSIS
10 EMS incident data elements for each patient care report in
11 the format defined in the NEMSIS EMS dataset as follows:
12 Incidents occurring between the 1st and 15th of a calendar
13 month shall be submitted no later than the last day of the
14 same calendar month; incidents occurring between the 16th
15 and last day of a calendar month shall be submitted no
16 later than the 15th of the following calendar month." End
17 of paragraph.
18 RANDY WILDEN: Sold says Randy. It works for
19 me.
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay.
21 RANDY WILDEN: I don't know what everybody talks
22 about it, but that works for us. We can make it happen.
23 JESS CAMPBELL: It's all about you, Randy.
24 RANDY WILDEN: Thanks, Jess.
25 JESS CAMPBELL: We're meeting for you.
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Page 53
1 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. I'm sorry to be taking
2 up so much of your time, but we're on to the next painful
3 subject. No. 6.
4 GUY DANSIE: Okay. Here, just an explanation.
5 Because -- let me just roll back up, and I will change it
6 back if this doesn't make sense, Shari.
7 Because we talked about the dates, the times, in
8 my mind it sounds like we should break it out for an A,
9 this type we do that, and B, for that type we do that.
10 SHARI HUNSAKER: I don't have a problem with
11 that.
12 GUY DANSIE: Is that okay?
13 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, that's fine.
14 GUY DANSIE: That just seemed to make sense to
15 me. Instead of having -- I think you had it as a
16 following sentence and then a new number.
17 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay. That's fine.
18 GUY DANSIE: So I just -- I took that liberty.
19 I hope that's okay.
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: That's fine.
21 In our current world, agencies are free to use
22 whichever third-party vendor they choose for collecting
23 patient care report data and uploading it into Polaris.
24 However, they can't just willy-nilly do that and expect
25 that their data is going to come through cleanly.
Page 54
1 So we've had a longstanding policy that agencies
2 need to submit some test records to me so that I can go
3 through and make sure that the vendor is sending us good
4 data that will pass XML validation. And it can take a
5 couple of weeks of give and take between me and the vendor
6 and emailing back and forth on the feedback before I will
7 approve their two datasets: Their demographic dataset and
8 their patient care report dataset. But there's been
9 nothing in administrative rule that says that has to be
10 done.
11 And so I've got contacted by maybe half a dozen
12 agencies in the last two years that have told me that we
13 switched over to Zoll or we switched over to Image Trend
14 three months ago when I call them and ask why I don't have
15 any data coming from them. Because at the very least I
16 need to give them rights to upload their data.
17 And so I'm proposing that we add a section that
18 basically says that they need to obtain approval from the
19 department prior to uploading data if they are not using
20 the State's hosted service. Whether it's following the
21 change of software or a major update.
22 So as your agency -- you are using Image Trend,
23 when you switch over to Elite and submitting version
24 3.3.4, I'll need to go through this validation process to
25 make sure that everything is being received correctly.
Page 55
1 So I'd just like to add that because I had an
2 agency argue with me because there was nothing in rule
3 that I'll show you --
4 RANDY WILDEN: Randy here.
5 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- I'll ask it to be a rule.
6 RANDY WILDEN: I don't have a problem but maybe
7 you want to put in there provider must obtain approval
8 after validation or after testing or after something the
9 department will provide permission for you -- for them to
10 use the system --
11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, if they were to contact
12 me to find out how to get approval, I would tell them what
13 the process is. I've got it outlined. I can send them a
14 written document of our policy and procedure. But if you
15 want more than that in the rule, we can certainly talk
16 about it.
17 RANDY WILDEN: But you said you are not getting
18 people to comply with it now. That's why I'm saying if
19 they knew they needed to submit some test data, contact
20 you and submit test data so that you could validate it and
21 then you would give them access to the system, then they
22 understand it better. I'm just trying to help you solve
23 your problem. That's my only comment.
24 SHARI HUNSAKER: I appreciate that. I guess I
25 was just trying to keep this as simple as possible. And,
Page 56
1 you know, they would -- just asking them to obtain
2 approval from the department, it's -- just like if you
3 applied for reciprocity or something like that, the entire
4 process is not outlined in rule. We have internal
5 policies and procedures that have to be followed before we
6 can grant an EMS provider, a reciprocity certification.
7 JESS CAMPBELL: I think you can add --
8 SHARI HUNSAKER: I had from the data manager,
9 but my peeps suggested that we make it the department.
10 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I missed some -- I'm sorry. Do
11 they need approval from you to get a new one or they just
12 need to talk to you so that you can interface?
13 SHARI HUNSAKER: They need my approval so I can
14 flip the switch to accept their data.
15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Okay. But they don't need --
16 they don't need your approval to buy a new system --
17 SHARI HUNSAKER: No.
18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: That's what it sounds like to
19 me.
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: For emergency medical services
21 providers, using a reporting system other than that
22 provided by the department, the provider must obtain
23 approval from the department prior to uploading any data
24 to the department provided system, whether following a
25 system installation or major upgrade.
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Page 57
1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Is approval the right word?
2 JESS CAMPBELL: I would say clarification. Is
3 it an approval or validation? It sounds like a testing
4 validation process needs to be gone through. It's not so
5 much that you are saying, yeah, go ahead and buy Zoll.
6 SHARI HUNSAKER: The only problem I have with
7 that is that every vendor of pre-hospital data systems out
8 there will tell you that they are passing XML validation.
9 And whether or not they are passing national XML
10 validation or not, they have to pass the State validation,
11 including how we spell the names of all of our hospitals,
12 how we spell the names of all of our drugs. It's a
13 very -- it can get very complicated depending on the
14 vendor.
15 JESS CAMPBELL: So I would just add after
16 approval, just put approval and validation from the
17 department --
18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So again, a clarification --
19 JAY DEE DOWNS: How about validation approval?
20 JESS CAMPBELL: Okay.
21 JAY DEE DOWNS: I mean that's schematic, is it?
22 SHARI HUNSAKER: Because XML validation, in that
23 context, validation means something completely different
24 than whether or not I validate you as a person or an
25 agency.
Page 58
1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: But it sounds like to me you
2 are trying to say you can't buy this until you have my
3 approval to say the words.
4 SHARI HUNSAKER: And that's not my intent.
5 That's why I specifically said that before they uploaded
6 any new data, they have to have my approval. They can go
7 buy anything they want to, but don't just --
8 DEAN YORK: There's not an approved vendor list?
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: No, there's no approved vendor
10 list. You can use any -- BYU developed their own system.
11 I don't care what you are using, but you have to let me
12 know what system is going to be sending the data, and I
13 have to look at a sample file to make sure that it is --
14 DEAN YORK: Meeting the criteria.
15 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- meeting all of the criteria.
16 JESS CAMPBELL: That all the information is
17 coming through.
18 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yes.
19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So then you want them to
20 contact the department and say -- and set up the process
21 for uploading.
22 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right. Generally, it's -- we
23 just bought Image Trend, and here's the name of our
24 support person, and it's usually Troy Whipple, and he
25 sends me the XML file. And just because Image Trend has
Page 59
1 other clients in the state, do not believe that they are
2 automatically smart enough to know exactly what the State
3 needs because I go through this every single time with
4 them. Please provide evidence of support of multiple
5 acceptable values.
6 JAY DEE DOWNS: I know it's a play on words,
7 that's the reason I was saying validation approval.
8 Because the way it sounds right now is you have to receive
9 your approval and the validation. All you are looking for
10 is a validation that it works -- that it goes through your
11 system.
12 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right once I -- once I have --
13 JAY DEE DOWNS: So if you say validation
14 approval, it says the validation has been approved and
15 it's ready to work.
16 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right.
17 JAY DEE DOWNS: You are not approving what they
18 are giving to you, you want -- you want to approve that
19 what goes through, goes through.
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right.
21 JAY DEE DOWNS: That's what I meant, Jess.
22 JESS CAMPBELL: And I agree with your
23 statements.
24 SHARI HUNSAKER: And that's fine. I have no
25 problem with that.
Page 60
1 JAY DEE DOWNS: Because I can see --
2 SHARI HUNSAKER: You guys know my intent. You
3 can change the words.
4 JAY DEE DOWNS: What it kind of sounds like to
5 me when you read that, it sounds like I have called up,
6 and I've got to get your approval to go with this vendor,
7 sort of stuff, and then I've got to validate it?
8 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right.
9 GUY DANSIE: Would the word "notification" -- I
10 mean, that's really what we're doing is notifying the
11 department.
12 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I like notification.
13 SHARI HUNSAKER: But it's more than
14 notification.
15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right.
16 JAY DEE DOWNS: It's validation of approval.
17 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's just not letting you know.
18 SUZANNE BARTON: One at a time.
19 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah.
20 JAY DEE DOWNS: It's validate -- it's to make
21 sure their product goes through and that's your validation
22 process.
23 SHARI HUNSAKER: So we can -- must obtain
24 validation approval.
25 GUY DANSIE: Okay.
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Page 61
1 JAY DEE DOWNS: So now I'm saying all I've got
2 to do is make sure my stuff goes through, it's going
3 through validation, it's approved, I'm on my way, I'm
4 good. That's the way I look at it.
5 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I like notification.
6 SHARI HUNSAKER: The reason I don't like
7 notification, Jean, is that you can call me and leave me a
8 message and I've been notified.
9 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right.
10 SHARI HUNSAKER: But that's not enough.
11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I know.
12 SHARI HUNSAKER: I have to go through the whole
13 process of looking at the data.
14 JEFF GRUNOW: What if you went "The EMS provider
15 shall notify to obtain validation approval"? And that's a
16 little -- because it seems a little harsh to me. I know
17 this isn't my area, but I --
18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right. You really want them --
19 SHARI HUNSAKER: That's fine.
20 JEAN LUNDQUIST: -- they really want to talk to
21 you so that they can fix and make sure it works, right?
22 Because that's what you want them to do.
23 JAY DEE DOWNS: Basically you are saying here,
24 is the stuff I'm going through, I'm going through it.
25 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right.
Page 62
1 JAY DEE DOWNS: You know, I can upload the stuff
2 and I can start saying, well, I've got my favorite party
3 vendor here. I'm uploading it. It's going down there.
4 It's going down there. And what she is saying is, wait a
5 minute. It's coming in, but it's not -- it's coming in
6 corrupted.
7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right.
8 JAY DEE DOWNS: So you've got to have some sort
9 of a test to make sure everything works before you flip
10 the switch and say we are going to accept it.
11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Right.
12 SHARI HUNSAKER: I don't have any problem with
13 putting in "notify the department to obtain validation
14 approval."
15 JEFF GRUNOW: You get a twofer out of that
16 sentence that way. They -- you have now told them you
17 have to call. And you've also told them what they are
18 trying to do. Because you're right about that. They can
19 be uploading all this stuff and it's garbage.
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: Well, or Polaris won't accept
21 it if it fails XML validation. So it's -- the point is
22 moot. They think they are uploading, but they are not.
23 JAY DEE DOWNS: But then you're getting your
24 validation approval until you are done. It doesn't
25 matter. It's just a play on words.
Page 63
1 SHARI HUNSAKER: Generally what happens if --
2 maybe if I explain the whole process. A vendor sends me
3 some test files into our development server. I look at
4 those. I provide them feedback on an Excel spreadsheet,
5 tell them what to fix, they send me another sample. That
6 goes back and forth on the patient care report dataset.
7 And then I say, "I am recommending you for approval" or "I
8 am approving you for uploading patient care reports for
9 this agency." And then I go into that vendor's account
10 within the State's system and I add that agency to the
11 list of clients for whom they are authorized to upload
12 data.
13 Then I look at the demographic dataset and
14 verify the names of all their personnel, their EMS IDs,
15 all of their vehicles, the employment status, all of that
16 good stuff. And then I say, okay, you have misspelled
17 MountainStar Air Care. It has to be spelled this way for
18 the State of Utah.
19 And oxygen through a cannula is different than
20 oxygen through a mask for the State of Utah. So you need
21 to add those to your list of procedures or your list of
22 medications.
23 And once all of that is done, and that's usually
24 a shorter process, then I approve the agency for uploading
25 the demographic dataset for that client as well. But in
Page 64
1 all cases, it -- it is wrapped up after I've flipped the
2 switch, I send an email to both the vendor and the agency
3 letting them know they are good to go.
4 GUY DANSIE: So are we okay with the word
5 "validation approval"? We debated it. Talked about it.
6 Are we okay with that?
7 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's a dead horse as far as I'm
8 concerned. We can beat it to death.
9 GUY DANSIE: Shall we move on then?
10 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yep. No changes except the
11 number on the next section.
12 And then Section 8 is changing the required
13 elements for the demographic dataset. Because we had
14 listed a lot of elements here that the State does not
15 require.
16 GUY DANSIE: So we're striking all of these --
17 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yes.
18 GUY DANSIE: Basically we're striking several.
19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So is this -- is this the same
20 thing as the -- when we talked about the NEMSIS -- no --
21 SHARI HUNSAKER: NEMSIS.
22 JEAN LUNDQUIST: The NEMSIS. Is this the same
23 list?
24 SHARI HUNSAKER: NEMSIS has two datasets, the
25 demographic dataset where all the elements are preceded
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Page 65
1 with the letter D, and the patient care report dataset
2 where all the elements are preceded with the letter E.
3 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Didn't back here, what was the
4 one we talked about back here?
5 SHARI HUNSAKER: But we are adopting by
6 reference.
7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah. Is this that same stuff?
8 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's related to it, yes.
9 JEAN LUNDQUIST: But it's not the same data
10 points?
11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Correct.
12 So, in addition to requiring all national
13 demographic data elements, so the ones I've stricken here
14 are national data elements. Okay? And what I've left
15 remaining are those optional demographic elements that the
16 State is requiring.
17 And that the same thing is true on the next
18 section to a couple of pages back where I've stricken all
19 of the national elements and have just left the State
20 required elements.
21 You'll all be happy to know when we go with
22 version 3, there are fewer elements but more acceptable
23 values for those elements. So we go from like a thousand
24 medications to 12,000. No big deal.
25 And then the remaining of the document is just
Page 66
1 changing the numbers.
2 GUY DANSIE: Just as a process question, how do
3 we determine what's acceptable data and what's not, the
4 ones we are dropping? Is there just -- is it just based
5 on our --
6 SHARI HUNSAKER: By default if in the data
7 dictionary it's identified as a national element, such as
8 the agency number, that's a national element, it would be
9 stricken from this list. Because we are saying in
10 addition to requiring all national demographic data
11 elements, the following demographic data elements are
12 required under this rule.
13 And then I used that same verbiage on the next
14 section starting with the new No. 9, in addition to
15 requiring all national patient care report data elements,
16 the following patient care report data elements are
17 required under this rule. And so I've struck all of the
18 national elements and left those that the State requires
19 in addition to the national. And by referencing that data
20 dictionary earlier in the rule --
21 GUY DANSIE: Captured those.
22 SHARI HUNSAKER: -- we've covered all those
23 national elements.
24 GUY DANSIE: Captured in the reference.
25 JIM GUYNN: In an effort to clean this up a
Page 67
1 little bit and make it more simple, in the same fashion
2 that we took out of administrative rule the actual
3 required items to be carried --
4 GUY DANSIE: List.
5 JIM GUYNN: -- is there a way to do something
6 similar that the department can have their list and you
7 can change that as you need and not have to go back in and
8 change administrative rule? Does that make sense?
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: It does. And I wish that it
10 were so, but I've been told by wiser folks than I with
11 more experience that this is the way it has to be.
12 GUY DANSIE: In the past, now this is just --
13 we've been told by previous AG's counsel that we had to
14 have drug equipment lists, things of that nature in rule.
15 And then as Brittany has come on board, we've found that
16 that's not necessarily the case. Because when we get a
17 new attorney, we get a new set of opinions. So we've
18 taken that out of rule to make it more flexible so it's
19 easier to change.
20 SHARI HUNSAKER: That would make my life a lot
21 easier for this and the trauma rule.
22 JIM GUYNN: It's actually still in rule --
23 GUY DANSIE: It's referenced.
24 JIM GUYNN: -- the rule references the approved,
25 you know, the department approved list. So instead of --
Page 68
1 SHARI HUNSAKER: That would be fabulous.
2 JIM GUYNN: -- being 14 pages of this, can it
3 just be the department approved dataset, and then you
4 create that same list, but now all of a sudden that goes
5 to the agencies so they know what they have to have in
6 their dataset --
7 SHARI HUNSAKER: And it's a link on our website.
8 JIM GUYNN: Correct.
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: And always has been.
10 JIM GUYNN: Correct. And you don't have to
11 change because nausea and vomiting goes away. So now all
12 of a sudden you have to open the rule and change it and
13 send it out to public comment and everything else. It
14 just seems to me like we could really make this a whole
15 lot more streamlined.
16 SHARI HUNSAKER: I would love to do that if we
17 can do that.
18 GUY DANSIE: Let's ask Brittany --
19 SHARI HUNSAKER: Okay.
20 GUY DANSIE: -- and get her take on it. And if
21 we can -- I know that this rule when it was written
22 previously was with Lyle's input and now I think we might
23 have a chance to pull it out.
24 SHARI HUNSAKER: You asked where the link would
25 be.
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Page 69
1 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
2 SHARI HUNSAKER: It's under -- it's on our
3 parent's website.
4 JAY DEE DOWNS: I didn't ask that. What I was
5 just saying, would you create another -- last time we did
6 it with the licensing for the rule -- for the equipment --
7 SUZANNE BARTON: Equipment list.
8 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. Where would we put that?
9 JEAN LUNDQUIST: And medication.
10 JAY DEE DOWNS: Would that be part of licensing
11 or would it be part of --
12 GUY DANSIE: The data?
13 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, it could be its standalone
14 document.
15 GUY DANSIE: Probably could be its own thing.
16 We could do that internally --
17 SHARI HUNSAKER: And on our Bureau website there
18 is a data section that has a link already in it that lists
19 all of the elements.
20 GUY DANSIE: As long as --
21 JAY DEE DOWNS: I don't understand why it needs
22 to be in rule is my problem because all it is --
23 GUY DANSIE: It was probably -- I'm just
24 assuming it was a leftover from Lyle and I'm seeing the
25 nods in the back. So I would propose if you would want to
Page 70
1 streamline it, we ask Brittany, get her legal opinion --
2 SHARI HUNSAKER: Absolutely.
3 GUY DANSIE: -- if she's okay with it, we move
4 to take it -- strike all of this out of the rule --
5 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right.
6 GUY DANSIE: And just have --
7 SHARI HUNSAKER: And then just refer to the data
8 dictionary.
9 GUY DANSIE: We will have to have a printed
10 policy that can be referenced.
11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Right.
12 JAY DEE DOWNS: You could just have the process
13 there and go from there.
14 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
15 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think it's a good idea.
16 JESS CAMPBELL: Subsequently be the compliance
17 list, data compliance list.
18 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yes.
19 JESS CAMPBELL: And we'd know that it will be
20 fluid.
21 JAY DEE DOWNS: Otherwise, this is really a
22 painstaking thing to change a couple of data elements for
23 --
24 SHARI HUNSAKER: Think of how much fun I had.
25 JAY DEE DOWNS: This is --
Page 71
1 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, it works much better. I'm
2 not speaking for your program, but our program where we're
3 dealing with the drug equipment, it's much easier to
4 change it. Because if we get a new piece of equipment
5 that saves lives, why spend two years going through a
6 process --
7 SHARI HUNSAKER: Absolutely.
8 GUY DANSIE: -- instead of updating it?
9 SHARI HUNSAKER: And see I have my medication
10 list and everything else that --
11 GUY DANSIE: Because the medications might
12 change quickly too. I don't know if that will impact your
13 list of data elements.
14 SHARI HUNSAKER: It certainly will because all
15 the vendors will have to add that medication.
16 JAY DEE DOWNS: Should we take a potty break?
17 SUZANNE BARTON: Yeah, Susan needs --
18 JAY DEE DOWNS: Take 10 or 15?
19 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. Let's take a break. You
20 okay with that?
21 SHARI HUNSAKER: Yeah, I'm fine with that.
22 (Break taken)
23 GUY DANSIE: Let's get this wrapped up.
24 We'll go ahead and start. So I think we're --
25 we were content with the wording, if everybody is okay
Page 72
1 with that. And we were going to -- let me make a motion
2 to strike -- if under the Attorney General's approval we
3 can strike the list and reference that.
4 SHARI HUNSAKER: Of the data elements.
5 GUY DANSIE: Of the data elements. So we'd
6 entertain --
7 JESS CAMPBELL: I'd like to make a motion we
8 approve as currently written R426-7 and specifically
9 dealing with the data system rules, along with the
10 recommendation whichever way legal feels should go with
11 respect to whether we leave in the data points or take
12 them out and place them in reference.
13 DEAN YORK: I'll second the motion.
14 GUY DANSIE: Okay. Go ahead and vote. Jay
15 should probably be doing this.
16 JAY DEE DOWNS: No, go ahead you started it.
17 GUY DANSIE: Okay. All that are in favor vote
18 aye.
19 COLLECTIVELY: Aye.
20 GUY DANSIE: Anybody just voting objection -- I
21 can't remember what it's called.
22 SHARI HUNSAKER: Opposed.
23 GUY DANSIE: Anybody opposed?
24 RANDY WILDEN: Randy, aye.
25 GUY DANSIE: So are you opposing?
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Page 73
1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Randy said aye.
2 GUY DANSIE: Okay. You're not.
3 RANDY WILDEN: Randy, I'm an aye.
4 GUY DANSIE: All right. Anybody abstain?
5 RANDY WILDEN: I couldn't get in fast enough.
6 GUY DANSIE: All right. No worries. Anybody
7 abstained?
8 Okay, the motion carries. We will present this
9 to the EMS Committee and go from there, and with
10 Brittany's approval and go from there.
11 SHARI HUNSAKER: Thank you so much. I always
12 enjoy any opportunity I have to interface with you folks.
13 GUY DANSIE: Thank you, Shari.
14 JAY DEE DOWNS: Thanks.
15 GUY DANSIE: I'll save that and exit.
16 JAY DEE DOWNS: Does Brittany have to go through
17 that herself?
18 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, we will modify any, like,
19 inconsistent wording. I've explained that to Shari.
20 Like, I saw a "must" in the there and changed it to
21 "shall". And I know provider was capitalized there and
22 the rest of it wasn't -- just like wording --
23 JAY DEE DOWNS: Not screw up the intent.
24 GUY DANSIE: No, we -- and if you feel like we
25 have, I will -- I will send you a copy out and if there's
Page 74
1 any -- anybody that feels upset with anything that
2 Brittany may have tweaked, we'll consider that and go from
3 there. It's always kind of a rough spot for everybody.
4 Okay. The second part of our agenda was -- and
5 I probably should let Jake -- I feel like I'm conducting
6 and Jake probably should be.
7 JAY DEE DOWNS: No. You conduct. Man, you're
8 good. Go ahead.
9 GUY DANSIE: We have -- Paul Patrick wanted this
10 group to organize itself similar to the peer review board.
11 I think you were all here when he talked about that a
12 little bit. And so I would just like to entertain -- I've
13 printed a hard copy and I just started this morning to --
14 and I've just retitled it, but it's basically the peer
15 review board piece of rule that's out for public comment
16 right now. And if we want to use that as a starting point
17 and make -- and modify it as needed.
18 Also, I've given you back when we organized this
19 group, Jay, Jolene, Whitney and myself sat down and tried
20 to write out a few things to kind of give us some clarity
21 on what our intent was. And I've given you a copy of the
22 EMS Rules Task Force Directive dated December 17th, 2013.
23 And I realize that was our vision at that time and things
24 have changed and maybe we need to review and modify and
25 change this group so that it fits our needs.
Page 75
1 JAY DEE DOWNS: So basically what you are saying
2 is we need the rules, so how we operate.
3 GUY DANSIE: Correct.
4 JAY DEE DOWNS: Do we need rules then who -- how
5 we put people on the board or how that's filled?
6 GUY DANSIE: I would think so.
7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Isn't that what this is?
8 GUY DANSIE: We had or --
9 JAY DEE DOWNS: What disciplines they represent?
10 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
11 MS. NELSON: Did you send that off?
12 GUY DANSIE: No, I just barely pulled this off.
13 I apologize. I could email this to you afterwards if
14 you'd like. I just thought maybe it would give somebody,
15 you know, in the room or -- I apologize I didn't get it
16 sent to you, but something just to work from. I figure we
17 probably are going to start somewhat fresh and look at the
18 rule and just create new language.
19 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. If there's anything in
20 the past that you want to hold onto, you're more than
21 welcome to, but I just -- basically rescind the old policy
22 that we developed as we started this group and just pick,
23 pick anything that may, may -- what's that?
24 LAUARA SNYDER: It's difficult to see what you
25 are doing and what's shown up there when we're on the
Page 76
1 phone and then hear us on the phone.
2 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. How about I'll try and
3 reference it or anything of that nature, but for those of
4 you in the room or those on the phone, we'll explain
5 anything that you see there clearly and loudly so that
6 everybody on the phone understands.
7 Some of the things we did originally, we just
8 quoted like the department powers, part of statute that
9 authorize this group. We wanted to have a liaison to the
10 EMS Committee. The Bureau was going to be responsible for
11 administrative support, agenda items, and the rule
12 approval process.
13 Committee members were to be appointed at terms
14 of two, three and four years. That was one of the things
15 that we'd adopted originally. That way we'd stagger the
16 terms so that people wouldn't be leaving at the same time.
17 JESS CAMPBELL: But I think there's one thing we
18 didn't clarify was who was the two, who was the three, and
19 who was the four.
20 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, probably a lot of loose ends.
21 It was kind of a starting point for us. But like I said,
22 it was -- we need to formalize it, put it in rule. It
23 basically lists the different titles of organizations or
24 representation from different groups. And those groups
25 included the Fire Chiefs Association, EMS Directors
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1 Association, the EMS Medical Director, law enforcement,
2 private EMS, APCO Medical Dispatch rep, dispatch
3 inoperability rep, hospital. We had air ambulance on
4 there. We've never had -- some of these groups have never
5 materialized when we solicited our initial applications.
6 We didn't have any responses from some of these groups.
7 So --
8 JESS CAMPBELL: So do we leave them on then
9 or --
10 GUY DANSIE: That's what I am asking. I think
11 we start fresh and if we want to create new group. How do
12 you feel about it, Jay?
13 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think when we first set it up,
14 we -- we tried to do a flock shot of everybody who would
15 be involved in EMS.
16 GUY DANSIE: Right.
17 JAY DEE DOWNS: Right.
18 GUY DANSIE: Just a cross section, broad cross
19 section.
20 JAY DEE DOWNS: And we tried to get people from
21 different parts of the state to be involved in it, rural,
22 urban, that sort of stuff. And so I kind of echo what Guy
23 said here is I think that we go through the list and say,
24 you know, they haven't had any interest now, they are not
25 here now, or do we need to extend another invitation to
Page 78
1 them? What do we need to do? I mean, you know, some of
2 them are already involved. Like the helicopter one, that
3 one's probably already --
4 GUY DANSIE: They already have a committee.
5 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, they have a committee.
6 And when they came to us anyway in the rules, they really
7 kind of did their own little thing. They didn't really
8 come here. You know what I mean?
9 GUY DANSIE: Right. In the meantime, Paul --
10 that used to be a task force. Paul gave them some
11 autonomy and said, hey, you guys operate as a committee.
12 Anything that the -- the Air Ambulance Committee at this
13 point resolves to do we will adopt that and go from there.
14 So when we bring things to this group from the
15 Air Ambulance Committee we do it as a courtesy but we
16 also -- you know, this group has pretty much adopted
17 everything verbatim that they've asked for. So that's why
18 really there isn't a reason for them to be here as well as
19 in the other group. Some of those are already represented
20 that way.
21 Do we want to go through and look at the EMS
22 Rules Task Force? They attempted in rule to identify
23 different types of representation. And I don't know if we
24 want to have this group mirror that, or if you would
25 rather have just our own list of positions?
Page 79
1 Obviously, we're not going to kick anybody off
2 that's on this group at this point.
3 LAUARA SNYDER: This is Lauara. I like the
4 positions that we initially -- or Jay and Jolene, whoever
5 set them up. I like that makeup. I think it twists a
6 little bit. I don't like the new 16th member
7 organizational position.
8 So my vote is to stick with what we have and
9 tweak a little bit with some -- like you said, air
10 ambulance have their own. They don't need to be on there.
11 You know, maybe we can't get a hospital administrator,
12 which I doubt that we ever will, because that's pretty
13 high chain, who's going to come and sit four hours at a
14 meeting?
15 I think we have a significant list that we have
16 already that was originally set up by Jay and Jolene and
17 just tweak it from there.
18 GUY DANSIE: Sounds good. Does anybody here
19 oppose that or any other thoughts?
20 JIM GUYNN: Well, the only concern that I have
21 is when they made some changes, and to be able to keep
22 according to -- what's his name --
23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Jason.
24 JIM GUYNN: Jason. According to Jason, they
25 moved me to the paramedic position because they wanted to
Page 80
1 keep the representation from down there and verify that I
2 am still a certified paramedic, but it says paramedic
3 licensed agency, and we're not a licensed agency. And
4 before I represented QR. Now Chief Wilden is there. You
5 know, I just want to make sure that that's still in, you
6 know, a valid appointment because I don't represent a
7 licensed agency.
8 GUY DANSIE: Paramedic.
9 JIM GUYNN: They said you know what, that's not
10 a problem as long as you are still a paramedic, it doesn't
11 matter. So if that's the case, that's fine. If not, I
12 certainly don't want to be excluded from this group just
13 because someone else put someone else.
14 GUY DANSIE: No, that's what I'm saying. We
15 needed to be flexible with these positions. We had a
16 vision of different types of representation. And as we
17 went through the appointment process, some things shook
18 out, you know, well and other things maybe, you know, we
19 tweaked a little bit to match up with some of the
20 applications.
21 We had -- we had applications in some areas and
22 under applications -- or not any applications with some of
23 the positions originally we selected. So we adjusted
24 those positions.
25 I think that's what we need to do again is maybe
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Page 81
1 look at selective ones. I know Jason made an attempt to
2 do that and tried to have us follow in line with the
3 subcommittees and that was something that was not very
4 popular to have this group be the same as a subcommittee.
5 RANDY WILDEN: Shocking.
6 GUY DANSIE: So that's -- I just want to
7 bring -- open it up to any, you know, let you guys decide
8 what's best for this group.
9 I -- I agree with you, though, Jim, I think, you
10 know, we need to change the slot you are in and change the
11 name of that slot. That's not a problem.
12 JIM GUYNN: Or just leave it to paramedic, just
13 whatever.
14 GUY DANSIE: Just take the licensed agency part
15 off.
16 JEAN LUNDQUIST: How about the private EMS
17 agency rep? Is there someone --
18 GUY DANSIE: That would be Lauara.
19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Okay.
20 GUY DANSIE: In fact, we could go through the
21 positions and who's on there.
22 The fire chiefs is Jess. EMS Directors
23 Association is an attempt to capture the rural EMS
24 agencies to balance the fire. We realize that most of the
25 large urban agencies are fire based.
Page 82
1 Rural agencies are not fire based. So we went
2 ahead -- at that time Don has worked to set up a rural EMS
3 Directors Association for non-fire based agencies. And I
4 don't know if he's ever been able to fully organize that
5 group to the extent that they thought they would, but
6 that's what we had him slated as.
7 So if that's okay, we'll keep a rural EMS
8 director.
9 JAY DEE DOWNS: That's cool.
10 GUY DANSIE: Do you want to have it be under the
11 association or just the rule, EMS director? Do we need to
12 change it or --
13 JIM GUYNN: Is Don a doctor then? Marrelli?
14 DEAN YORK: No, he runs Price's.
15 GUY DANSIE: No. He's Price's EMS director.
16 JEAN LUNDQUIST: EMS --
17 JIM GUYNN: So anymore EMS coordinator, not a
18 director. A director is a medical director, right?
19 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, well, we have a medical
20 director. You can see Mark Bair was right below that.
21 And he actually applied and wanted to be part of this
22 group, but he just hasn't been able to attend.
23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, that's -- that's my
24 thing. Is if they haven't been here for X amount of time.
25 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, and that was probably the
Page 83
1 other thing is we just clean out the --
2 JAY DEE DOWNS: That was a non-fire based EMS
3 agency, right, whatever their title is? The most we could
4 come up with was director but maybe supervisor or manager.
5 Maybe we can do that.
6 GUY DANSIE: Manager.
7 JAY DEE DOWNS: EMS manager.
8 JIM GUYNN: Isn't it the Bureau's title, EMS
9 coordinator?
10 LAUARA SNYDER: Can I clarify that a little bit?
11 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, go ahead Lauara.
12 LAUARA SNYDER: On the EMS Director's
13 Association Don was actually voted in as president. And
14 we have been trying to organize, trying some ebb and flow,
15 but that's why that's in there. Hopefully that will be a
16 significant force for EMS.
17 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
18 LAUARA SNYDER: So I think EMS Director's
19 Association, I mean they could be rural fire, rural
20 private, rural county, whatever, but it was a good cross
21 section. So I think if we leave it as EMS Directors
22 Association I think that's appropriate because that is
23 truly what it is.
24 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, and I agree. That's why we
25 put it in there to begin with. But I think on my list we
Page 84
1 didn't have the title rural -- did I say that properly?
2 Rural. The attempt was to balance the urban viewpoint
3 with the rural viewpoint from a leadership standpoint. So
4 should we title that --
5 LAUARA SNYDER: I understand.
6 GUY DANSIE: -- Rural EMS Director's
7 Association?
8 LAUARA SNYDER: Well, I don't know if that is
9 correct, though, because then you might have to have
10 another association because this EMS Director's
11 Association, even the large private were part of that when
12 it very first started probably 15 years ago or even more,
13 maybe 20 years ago.
14 GUY DANSIE: Right.
15 LAUARA SNYDER: So -- and they are certainly
16 welcome to be a part of it. I think that Don has sent
17 them an invitation to all of them. So I -- I don't -- I
18 know that we tried to do it and it's always been a
19 proponent of rural, but I think EMS Director's Association
20 really doesn't encompass everybody. Even though the
21 majority of them are rural that come to this.
22 GUY DANSIE: Okay. So we'll just leave it as
23 is. Is that what you are proposing?
24 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think the thing was, with the
25 question was, was not getting it confused with the medical
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Page 85
1 director; is that correct?
2 JIM GUYNN: Right.
3 JEFF GRUNOW: What if we put down Rural EMS
4 Manager? And that takes the word director out and then it
5 finally tells you what you are looking for and it doesn't
6 specifically put an organization. Because --
7 GUY DANSIE: Let's see, rural area.
8 JEFF GRUNOW: It gets what you want. Because
9 let's say a whole bunch of EMS directors ended up -- let's
10 say they had a coup and then you had all these urban
11 people, you didn't get what you want.
12 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. True. True. And I think
13 this list when we first set it up, it was based on
14 associations, is primarily what we were looking at. And I
15 don't know if we want to stay with that entirely or if we
16 want to -- like the sub-committees do have different,
17 like, licensed personnel, or certified personnel at a
18 certification level, like a basic, you know, an EMT or an
19 AEMT or a paramedic, but I don't know if that's what this
20 group wants or if we want to keep associations, titles in
21 there or would we rather have it like your qualifications
22 according to skill set or --
23 JIM GUYNN: I can fix this paramedic license
24 agency issue real easy. I'm the training officer for
25 Washington. Dean is a paramedic for a licensed agency.
Page 86
1 We could just swap those two names and then no one could
2 ever have a complaint with what we are representing. Do
3 you want to do that?
4 GUY DANSIE: That works. That works.
5 JAY DEE DOWNS: Back to the question up here
6 with the director's association.
7 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
8 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Is the official title of that
9 group the EMS Director's Association? Is that the title
10 of the group?
11 LAUARA SNYDER: It is.
12 JEAN LUNDQUIST: There you go.
13 GUY DANSIE: We'll just leave it as that.
14 JEAN LUNDQUIST: There you go. I mean that's
15 the title of the group. That's the representative.
16 GUY DANSIE: Okay. So as we move down that
17 list, EMS Medical Director, Mark Bair.
18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: We need a new one.
19 GUY DANSIE: Should we solicit a new medical
20 director?
21 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I think so.
22 GUY DANSIE: Leave that category in.
23 LAUARA SNYDER: I think we need that category.
24 There's a lot of things in rural that we need a medical
25 director input, but if he's not able to come, I agree with
Page 87
1 Teresa, we need to get new one, solicit for a new one.
2 JIM GUYNN: I wonder if Dr. Taillac would do
3 that?
4 GUY DANSIE: Well, Taillac has been involved
5 with this group, but he's -- well, I guess he could say --
6 he does represent West Valley. I didn't know if we wanted
7 a local EMS medical director or -- he's also like a State
8 perspective.
9 JIM GUYNN: Right.
10 GUY DANSIE: So he's kind of served in that
11 role, but I didn't -- we don't want to exclude somebody
12 else if somebody else wanted to apply. He's come just as
13 a staff member, not necessarily representing an outside
14 group.
15 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I say you send out a memo and
16 ask.
17 LAUARA SNYDER: Yeah, I was going to say maybe
18 we should send it out to medical directors that are
19 looking --
20 GUY DANSIE: Solicit another.
21 LAUARA SNYDER: See if he'll come.
22 GUY DANSIE: I'll do that. Peter has a list for
23 medical directors and we'll solicit new applicants to be
24 part of this group.
25 JAY DEE DOWNS: You might want to ask Mark
Page 88
1 before you do that and say, hey, we noticed you haven't
2 been able to come. Are you still interested in being on
3 it.
4 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I'll follow up with Mark Bair
5 and just as a courtesy just say, hey, we know you've been
6 busy, but --
7 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, I think you could say
8 we're coming up on our two-year mark as a task force.
9 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You came once.
10 JESS CAMPBELL: We would like to redo our list.
11 Are you still interested?
12 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
13 JESS CAMPBELL: I don't think you have to say
14 anything about whether or not he's been present or not,
15 just we're coming up on our two-year mark and we'd like to
16 renew.
17 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I'll be tactful with him. I
18 consider him a friend. I know him quite well. So I'm not
19 going to -- and I know he's actually contributed over the
20 years in many different capacities to the Bureau.
21 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Which is why he's so busy.
22 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
23 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah. I think the one I'm
24 remembering left is Cheyenne.
25 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Was that you, Teresa?
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1 SUZANNE BARTON: She was replaced by Teresa.
2 TERESA BRUNT: I will never in my life try to be
3 as cool as her but she's -- yeah, I try to represent.
4 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, as cool as you are,
5 Teresa, I'm sorry I've never met her.
6 TERESA BRUNT: That Cheyenne, she's good. Half
7 the time I feel like I'm learning more than I'm
8 contributing, but I do enjoy being part of the group.
9 GUY DANSIE: Okay. The next category for those
10 on the phone was law enforcement. Originally we -- we've
11 had that on our EMS Committee and some of the
12 sub-committees we've had law enforcement folks. I know
13 Tom Hodgson -- Hodson -- am I saying his name right?
14 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Uh-huh.
15 GUY DANSIE: He was a law enforcement person;
16 although, he was representing the Utah Association of EMTs
17 officially.
18 JAY DEE DOWNS: Wasn't Kevin law enforcement
19 too?
20 GUY DANSIE: Kevin, I think is. Yeah. I'm not
21 sure if he's like -- is Kevin POST certified?
22 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Kevin Rose?
23 GUY DANSIE: Is he a deputy?
24 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, he's a deputy in Davis
25 County, isn't he?
Page 90
1 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. And I know he's given us
2 much of our support on, like, tactical paramedic issues,
3 things like that. Do we want to -- Kevin also served in a
4 different capacity, though. I don't know, do we want to
5 seek law enforcement?
6 JAY DEE DOWNS: There are agencies out there
7 that are law enforcement that cross.
8 GUY DANSIE: Based, yeah. Some of the sheriff's
9 departments have those. And it looks like Sevier County,
10 I believe. Iron did.
11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Can you guys hear, Jess? He's
12 mumbling, but...
13 GUY DANSIE: What did you say, Jess?
14 JESS CAMPBELL: I said no law enforcement.
15 GUY DANSIE: No law enforcement?
16 JEAN LUNDQUIST: In the stuff we go over is
17 there anything applicable to them?
18 GUY DANSIE: Mostly paramedic tactics, but
19 Kevin -- Kevin is involved in that. He's kind of filling
20 two roles.
21 JESS CAMPBELL: So eliminate him.
22 GUY DANSIE: So let's -- should we just scratch
23 that category?
24 How about the private -- the next one is private
25 EMS agencies. Should we scratch that one, Lauara?
Page 91
1 LAUARA SNYDER: I was expecting that.
2 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
3 JIM GUYNN: You know, I wonder if Mike Moffitt
4 would maybe help us out with that.
5 GUY DANSIE: Should we see if we can get Gold
6 Cross to pony up?
7 LAUARA SNYDER: So long as I can exchange and be
8 on the EMS Committee, I would trade.
9 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I would go for that.
10 GUY DANSIE: Like a chess game, huh?
11 SUZANNE BARTON: You have to be appointed.
12 JESS CAMPBELL: Make a motion.
13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I second it.
14 JAY DEE DOWNS: I'm not the one.
15 GUY DANSIE: In all fairness to Gold Cross and
16 Wendover and any other privates, we have -- we picked
17 Lauara for this group because we knew Mike was on the
18 committee and we have Chris Dellamar who's their
19 operational manager and on the operation subcommittee.
20 And I think Jack Mearsman is on there now. So they are
21 represented well. And, you know, that's why Lauara was
22 the one we gave that position to originally.
23 Are there any other privates? I'm trying to
24 think, the hospital based are kind of private. Yeah, and
25 I don't know.
Page 92
1 LAUARA SNYDER: MountainWest.
2 GUY DANSIE: MountainWest, Uintah Basin,
3 Gunnison. I'm trying to think of some other. Gunnison is
4 community owned. Kanab.
5 JEAN LUNDQUIST: San -- no Sanpete --
6 GUY DANSIE: Well, Gunnison is actually run by
7 their hospital, but it's community based. They don't
8 represent a government per se but it's a hospital.
9 There's a few of the hospital based, Mountain West. I'm
10 just -- Uintah.
11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Uintah is too?
12 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, Uintah Basin.
13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Sevier, are they?
14 GUY DANSIE: No. No, Sevier is under the
15 Sheriff's Department. So anyways I guess, should we just
16 keep that as is?
17 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah.
18 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, I think it's been a good
19 indicator of who feels they have a vested interest. I
20 mean, representative just on the list of names with the
21 exception of Cheyenne replaced by Teresa. On the list
22 that's in front of us, I would -- I know Tom early on was
23 engaged, but I don't think he's been -- but I'm not saying
24 we need to strike the UAEMT, but maybe we need to see if
25 somebody else within that group would like to take Tom's
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1 place. But other than that, I would say let's just stick
2 with the list of both of them because they come to events,
3 I mean, it can always be changed again in the future, but
4 I don't think it represents well when you have half of
5 your list with vacancies.
6 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
7 JESS CAMPBELL: And not really ever having
8 participated in. And I don't think they will.
9 GUY DANSIE: No, and I don't think so either.
10 So like hospital administrator, are we okay to strike
11 that?
12 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah.
13 JEFF GRUNOW: Yeah.
14 GUY DANSIE: Let's strike that. Air Ambulance
15 Committee, I'm going to strike that, if that's okay.
16 The League of Cities and Towns, that was purely
17 a political thing. Strike that. Same with public
18 officials. Political subdivision managers, Associated
19 Mechanics, we tried to get the political viewpoint.
20 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, we even early on, that was
21 one of the first rules I remember and I don't remember
22 which iteration of this group it was, but that was one of
23 the first rules that we worked on was -- I mean, there was
24 rule in place that said that we would report to our
25 political subdivisions and we said, all right, so what
Page 94
1 does that mean? Well, that means we should be having
2 somebody go to county commissioner meetings and report
3 as -- that's just not a reality. And the reality was they
4 didn't care, you know, as long as they knew the business
5 was getting taken care of. And so yeah, I -- I think
6 eliminating them.
7 GUY DANSIE: Okay.
8 JAY DEE DOWNS: Well, doesn't the law also
9 address that too where you have to -- was it public
10 access -- what is it called where you have to get with
11 your public entities now?
12 GUY DANSIE: Cost quality access goals. Yeah,
13 as part of your licensing that was a new legislative bill
14 that is required that now you -- when you -- and we
15 decided that doing it through the licensing process, you
16 would need to submit some cost quality and access goals.
17 We wrote a little bit of rule and put it in that R426-5 to
18 meet our mandate from the legislature to do some kind of
19 role, but the actual development of the template or some
20 kind of -- the meat and potatoes part of that rule, we
21 still haven't really figured it all out yet. And our
22 operations subcommittee was going to work on that and try
23 to develop something that's user friendly for the
24 providers so that when they relicense they could, you
25 know, submit something to us to meet that requirement.
Page 95
1 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, there's a plan in place
2 for hopefully working, continually working on improvement.
3 JAY DEE DOWNS: Absolutely.
4 GUY DANSIE: Right. Right. Yeah. And we don't
5 want to make it too burdensome on the agencies, but it is
6 a requirement now, so...
7 JAY DEE DOWNS: Is there anybody else that we
8 maybe forgot? We got the educators. We've got the --
9 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, Jeff -- yeah, course
10 coordinator.
11 JAY DEE DOWNS: Course coordinators. Is there
12 anybody else that -- there is one role that we don't have
13 on here yet, unless you don't want me to but --
14 GUY DANSIE: What?
15 JAY DEE DOWNS: A member from the EMS Committee.
16 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, and that was part of the one
17 that was set up.
18 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, we had that --
19 GUY DANSIE: It was actually -- that was an
20 agreement Paul had with the EMS Committee, is that we have
21 Jay -- and we felt that Jay should conduct the meetings.
22 That's why he's conducted.
23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah.
24 GUY DANSIE: Because he represents the
25 committee.
Page 96
1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: So where does Jason fit in?
2 GUY DANSIE: Jason -- well, my understanding was
3 that we wanted an alternate if something happened with
4 Jay. Jay was busy. I know Jay was feeling pressure on
5 his real job and had Jason be like an alternate.
6 JESS CAMPBELL: Well, and that was also some
7 feedback to I think one of the early reports that we made
8 to the EMS Subcommittee, there was some lashing back, you
9 know, lashing out, you know, you don't work for us, we
10 don't work for you, you work for us, kind of statements
11 were getting tossed about. And I think -- I think it was
12 actually Jay that suggested that, you know, hey, if you
13 think that this is a simple task that we're embarked on
14 feel free to show up at any one of them --
15 JAY DEE DOWNS: Absolutely.
16 JESS CAMPBELL: -- and witness what's going on.
17 Well -- and Jason accepted that, but somehow that's
18 morphed into he's a voting member.
19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: That's what I can't figure out.
20 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I think he asserted a little
21 power or something.
22 JEAN LUNDQUIST: When we first introduced him, I
23 thought he was going to be an observer and then he started
24 voting. Because that didn't -- I think we just need to
25 decide which way it's going to be.
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1 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, maybe we have one vote for
2 the EMS rep.
3 JESS CAMPBELL: I think the EMS Committee needs
4 to be on there. And if we're headed down the path we're
5 on, I think we need to have an odd number so we can have a
6 tie breaking capability, and that would give us, again,
7 assuming that we can start the UAEMT rep in that. Then
8 the EMS Committee would give us 13.
9 JAY DEE DOWNS: I'd kind of like the vice chair
10 of the EMS Committee to be on this committee because it
11 kind of reports back to the EMS Committee.
12 JIM GUYNN: If you are to strike the UAEMT rep
13 if Sergeant Hodson is still interested in being part of
14 the group, then perhaps we can just put him right into the
15 law enforcement position and leave that there.
16 JESS CAMPBELL: Either way.
17 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, either way.
18 LAUARA SNYDER: I have -- I just noticed on the
19 list that we've made up here, there's 20 people, and then
20 you've taken out five positions, that leaves 16, and
21 that's if we only have one EMS Committee member, which I
22 heard you guys talking and I think you are right on track.
23 We need one, but I don't think we need two voting people
24 from the EMS Committee.
25 So that would leave us with 15 people and that
Page 98
1 may be sufficient. The new subcommittees each have 16
2 people on them. So, you know, if you really wanted to go
3 for an even number and have 16, you know, and maybe we
4 could look at another position or include back the sheriff
5 group but, you know, we're at that number now, 15. Is
6 that right?
7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: I only have 13.
8 JESS CAMPBELL: We have 13.
9 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
10 JIM GUYNN: Well, with Jay. Jay is not here.
11 So that will make 14.
12 GUY DANSIE: 14.
13 LAUARA SNYDER: Well, I think with Jay on
14 there -- yeah, with Jay on there that's -- is that 16?
15 JIM GUYNN: 14.
16 LAUARA SNYDER: No, that's 15.
17 JIM GUYNN: There's only 13 names on the list.
18 So if you add Jay, that's 14.
19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: 11, 12, 13 with Jay is what I
20 have.
21 GUY DANSIE: I'm not on the list either because
22 I'm not -- I'm here to be advised.
23 JEAN LUNDQUIST: You're a voting member?
24 GUY DANSIE: Actually, I haven't voted. I -- as
25 a matter of personal opinion, I feel like I'm here being
Page 99
1 advised by you.
2 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah.
3 GUY DANSIE: I know I've conducted a little bit,
4 you know, acting a little with Jay, but I honestly haven't
5 voted. I don't consider myself a voting member.
6 JESS CAMPBELL: Advisory.
7 GUY DANSIE: I suggest, but I don't vote.
8 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Are we going to leave Tom, the
9 UAEMT on? Have we decided about that?
10 GUY DANSIE: Should we talk to Tom or --
11 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Ask him if he still wants to be
12 involved?
13 GUY DANSIE: It's a big association. I know
14 they have a lot of --
15 JESS CAMPBELL: So if it isn't Tom who else?
16 GUY DANSIE: We could ask the president --
17 LAUARA SNYDER: I think the UAEMT Association
18 should be represented because they do represent -- there's
19 a lot of people in that organization. And they may
20 have -- you know, they've got a dog in the fight so to
21 speak when you talk about the rate increases for
22 certifications and some of those processes. I would think
23 they would probably want to have representation. But I
24 think we worked pretty well with the number that we've
25 had, which is -- you know, if you say it's 14. I don't
Page 100
1 know that we just need to add numbers to try and make a
2 number, you know, make it 15 like the subcommittees. I
3 think if this was what we have and we've been working well
4 with it, positions that people are filling, I think we are
5 looking pretty good just like this.
6 JESS CAMPBELL: I don't think --
7 LAUARA SNYDER: But I think that Jay's done a
8 great job, and I hope he stays as our representative from
9 the EMS Committee, but I think we only need one.
10 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, I don't think bigger is
11 necessarily better.
12 GUY DANSIE: Well, it seems like that magic
13 number is usually in the mid-teens somewhere for a group.
14 I think you get diversity and yet it's not so big that
15 it's out of control.
16 JAY DEE DOWNS: Now, one of the -- I guess
17 originally what we tried to do was look at everybody that
18 was to be affected by the rules, or all the groups to be
19 affected by the rules and try to get a representative from
20 them. And it's shaked out pretty well. I can't think of
21 any other groups out there that would be affected by these
22 rules. I mean, I think we pretty well captured them.
23 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I think so too. I think
24 UAEMT may be one we could look at their elected
25 leadership. I think Tom's part of that but I don't know
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1 who the president -- don't they have an election every
2 year and have --
3 JAY DEE DOWNS: One thing is we've got to be
4 careful when we look at membership to make sure we still
5 keep it diversified in getting areas of the state. And
6 that was the other thing that we looked at, too, is to
7 make sure that we have -- if you fill the role of this,
8 but you came from Washington County so you came from the
9 southern portion of the state.
10 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. There's that urban/rural
11 balance we've tried to strike.
12 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. I've filled the role of
13 the EMS Committee coming from the northern part of the
14 State. See what I'm saying? So maybe not with the --
15 DEAN YORK: Darren Park represent more union
16 based on the peer review.
17 GUY DANSIE: Right.
18 DEAN YORK: Would a union representative be --
19 have an invested interest?
20 JAY DEE DOWNS: That's an interesting point.
21 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, that's something you guys --
22 maybe get like an employee association type thing. See,
23 and I -- that's actually why UAEMT came in was we felt
24 that it represented the EMTs whereas we had a paramedic
25 agency to represent maybe the higher certification level.
Page 102
1 UAEMT represented maybe the lower certification level.
2 Tami, did you have --
3 TAMI GOODIN: What is --
4 LAUARA SNYDER: I think we want to remember,
5 too, is all these organizations, just like the Air
6 Ambulance Committee, they have their groups, their work
7 groups and they come up with whatever they want. They
8 bring it to our task force --
9 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
10 LAUARA SNYDER: -- and we usually support what
11 they decide. So I think that really we do get a big -- we
12 do represent everybody, even if not everybody has a seat
13 at the table, just like the Air Ambulance Committee, they
14 have even sections in the rules that affect them and yet
15 they don't have a spot on here.
16 GUY DANSIE: Right. And we've -- we're
17 eliminating that off of this.
18 JAY DEE DOWNS: Guy, is this the list we put
19 together or is this the list Jason went through and
20 pigeonholed it?
21 GUY DANSIE: No, this is the original --
22 JAY DEE DOWNS: This is the list you and I
23 worked on?
24 GUY DANSIE: This is the one you and I, Jolene
25 sat down -- this is the one we used to send out
Page 103
1 applications from.
2 JIM GUYNN: Yes. No, because I view it like QR
3 rep.
4 GUY DANSIE: But we tweaked that.
5 JIM GUYNN: Right.
6 GUY DANSIE: Because of the rural nature, we
7 wanted someone from a rural place and --
8 JAY DEE DOWNS: But literally --
9 GUY DANSIE: -- you fit the bill better than
10 others, so we just tweaked the categories. And I think we
11 did the same for Randy.
12 JAY DEE DOWNS: Well, you know, this isn't
13 really set in stone either in rule --
14 GUY DANSIE: We tweaked it so he would be on it.
15 JAY DEE DOWNS: -- but if he had, like, later on
16 we have somebody we feel like we could put it, we'll just
17 change the rule and add it to it, right?
18 GUY DANSIE: Right. And we did this as a policy
19 just starting out to get it going.
20 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think what we got here now is
21 eliminating some of the suggestions that Jess has made and
22 some of these other ones. I think we just go through
23 there now and keep them like that and go from there. I
24 don't think we need to put very much more --
25 GUY DANSIE: More thought into it.
Page 104
1 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah. I think we are there, are
2 we not?
3 TAMI GOODIN: Does Kevin represent dispatch
4 still?
5 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, we had him down as an
6 interoperability -- dispatch interoperability rep. We
7 could --
8 JIM GUYNN: Regina --
9 JESS CAMPBELL: Is there a difference?
10 GUY DANSIE: We were thinking -- originally I
11 know this is what we were thinking. An association that
12 represented something rural and urban. Regina was a rural
13 dispatch. Kevin was an urban dispatch. That's kind of
14 what we were trying to strike a balance between.
15 JAY DEE DOWNS: I remember that now.
16 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
17 TAMI GOODIN: I wanted to make sure
18 dispatch was --
19 GUY DANSIE: We had two dispatch spots and we
20 wanted urban and rural. So that's how it was divided.
21 JESS CAMPBELL: For the sake of clarity --
22 LAUARA SNYDER: I think this is a good
23 representation that we have on this. And I think all the
24 positions are appropriate. And the ones who haven't shown
25 up, I think that kind of just shows, you know, maybe they
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1 are not as interested to be at the table. But again, that
2 doesn't mean they can't bring information just like, you
3 know, from their work groups like the air ambulance people
4 do.
5 GUY DANSIE: True. How about this. We'll --
6 can I use this list I have and eliminate the two or three
7 we did, like the League of Cities and Towns and the Air
8 Ambulance and those that are not -- never were filled,
9 we'll eliminate those. The ones like for Mark Bair and
10 Tom Hodson, let's talk to -- I'll talk to those two and
11 maybe get a rep that represents that category. You know,
12 if they are unable to attend maybe we can get another rep
13 from that category.
14 LAUARA SNYDER: I think that's good. In this
15 instance it doesn't have a spot to comment as a rule; is
16 that correct, because this is a task force that's under
17 your department?
18 GUY DANSIE: Right. It's under the department,
19 but here's the part why we bring it to you today, is not
20 only do we want to clean up our policy that we developed
21 originally and renew that if we need to, but we need to --
22 and this is your call but Paul promised you guys if you
23 wanted to put it into rule, we could. And I came here
24 today thinking that we would probably draft this into
25 rule. And so we could develop this list and we can
Page 106
1 translate it into rule if, you know, to strike them.
2 That's -- that's what Paul's vision was.
3 JESS CAMPBELL: So does the APCO organization
4 primarily represent rural dispatch centers?
5 GUY DANSIE: I --
6 JESS CAMPBELL: -- or are they --
7 JIM GUYNN: In this circumstance it is. But
8 APCO, I mean, isn't that the --
9 GUY DANSIE: That's just everybody.
10 JESS CAMPBELL: Kind of a statewide or even a
11 national.
12 JIM GUYNN: Yeah, didn't that --
13 JAY DEE DOWNS: Were you looking to label it
14 rural dispatch?
15 JESS CAMPBELL: Yeah, I was thinking label it
16 rural and urban.
17 JAY DEE DOWNS: That would be more --
18 GUY DANSIE: Based on --
19 JAY DEE DOWNS: More definitive or more
20 descriptive.
21 TERESA BRUNT: Will I get to stay in?
22 GUY DANSIE: Everybody gets to stay in who wants
23 to. We value you.
24 JESS CAMPBELL: You are in for life.
25 TERESA BRUNT: Oh, thank you.
Page 107
1 JESS CAMPBELL: You are in for life. You can
2 never be released.
3 TERESA BRUNT: Thank you.
4 JESS CAMPBELL: I make that motion.
5 TERESA BRUNT: All the contribution I give.
6 DEAN YORK: The other word for that is
7 purgatory.
8 JESS CAMPBELL: It's still the same thing. It's
9 hell.
10 GUY DANSIE: And then -- and I apologize again
11 for those of you on the phone. We'll send out what we had
12 as a policy, but basically let me read some of that. We
13 would have -- let me just go down to the appointment
14 process. We had two, three and four-year terms. And I
15 think originally we'd set out to do that.
16 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think we threw it out there
17 and we thought we'd organize --
18 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, it was loose. We thought if
19 people didn't want to be here forever, they could do one
20 or the other. I honestly don't care, as long as we have
21 consistency, and maybe there's a point where people are
22 getting sick of it and they want to drop off. That's
23 understandable.
24 JEFF GRUNOW: What I would suggest is you take
25 this and you go to one EMS administrative officer and you
Page 108
1 draw at random two year, three year, four year and then
2 that way there's no stacking of the deck.
3 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
4 JEFF GRUNOW: And so you go to the next one, one
5 EMS administrative officer, draw the next one out. Maybe
6 that's three years.
7 GUY DANSIE: So just totally do it by random.
8 JEFF GRUNOW: That's what I would do. That
9 would be clean.
10 GUY DANSIE: Does that sound fair to everybody?
11 And I guess my other thing is if people want out after a
12 year or two, then I would certainly entertain the idea
13 allow them that choice to opt out.
14 JAY DEE DOWNS: I would do the EMS Committee by
15 appointment by the EMS Committee and that way no -- you
16 see what I'm saying?
17 GUY DANSIE: Okay.
18 JAY DEE DOWNS: Just go to your year and sit on
19 that -- I guess you could. I guess you could because you
20 could stay two years with the EMS Committee guy and then
21 turn around and the EMS Committee may take them back. But
22 I know the original intention was the vice-chair would be
23 on this committee.
24 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
25 JESS CAMPBELL: Is that you?
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1 GUY DANSIE: That's Jay.
2 JAY DEE DOWNS: Another year till December.
3 Yeah.
4 JIM GUYNN: Then maybe the rest of us can just
5 volunteer for what we want to be.
6 GUY DANSIE: Well, that's what I was wondering
7 if you wanted --
8 JIM GUYNN: I'll do it for three.
9 GUY DANSIE: As long as everybody -- you know,
10 there wasn't conflict. If everybody wanted to go three
11 and then at the end of the three, we lose everybody,
12 that's not going to work either.
13 JEFF GRUNOW: No, I'll take two. My wife wants
14 to retire.
15 GUY DANSIE: See, and that's why I was wondering
16 originally is if maybe we ought to do is look at personal
17 needs and then if people kind of fell into different time
18 links that's fine.
19 JEFF GRUNOW: That's okay too.
20 GUY DANSIE: Yeah. And I don't see -- I don't
21 know if we wanted to do a reappointment process.
22 JIM GUYNN: Is that train coming, Dean?
23 DEAN YORK: Yeah.
24 JAY DEE DOWNS: You on TRAX?
25 GUY DANSIE: You need to get out of here? I'm
Page 110
1 just talking theoretical stuff now. If we wanted to have2 lengths of terms and then also reappointments or term3 limits.4 JIM GUYNN: Doesn't it already state in there5 that you can't do -- no, that's a different rule. Sorry.6 I thought it said somewhere in there you couldn't do two7 full terms. But that's actually on the peer review.8 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, yeah. And I didn't know if9 you guys wanted to go that route. Because I think they
10 went to a six-year term, didn't they, with no11 reappointments.12 DEAN YORK: Have they filled the positions in13 the peer review?14 GUY DANSIE: No, they are just getting the15 application process set up. And if any of you wanted to16 jump on that, that's cool, if you want to do that.17 But I guess my question is, I feel like I'm18 floundering here with all these ideas, do you want me to19 take a stab at rewriting this task force rule?20 JAY DEE DOWNS: I think so.21 GUY DANSIE: Like, the peer review rule for the22 task force, or does anybody else want to take a stab at23 it?24 DEAN YORK: It looks similar.25 GUY DANSIE: And then we can put the positions
Page 111
1 that we had that we agreed upon today in that.
2 JAY DEE DOWNS: Give us something to go from.
3 If you are asking for a flock shot now, that's what you
4 are getting.
5 GUY DANSIE: I'm getting a flock shot.
6 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah, yeah. Because everybody
7 is just kind of like well, whatever.
8 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, sure. Sounds good.
9 JAY DEE DOWNS: If you put something on paper
10 then we can have something substantial, we come back.
11 GUY DANSIE: The straw man kind of thing.
12 DEAN YORK: This is a great template.
13 GUY DANSIE: Well, yeah. How about I use this
14 as a template and then I'll use the old policies. If
15 there's anything you don't like in the old policies,
16 that's what I'm wondering, if you want to do
17 reappointments, term lengths. Categories I think we've
18 figured out.
19 JAY DEE DOWNS: Let's do a stab and come back
20 and discuss that and say, okay, what's your link?
21 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I'll draft a piece --
22 JESS CAMPBELL: So the Fire Chief's Association,
23 all of -- so every two years, the second vice president is
24 up for election because the president falls off and the
25 proposal now is that it would go on to be the Western
Page 112
1 State's Fire Chief Representative. Anyway, the fire
2 chief's representative's probably on a two-year so that it
3 coincides with the election cycle. It may be with that
4 individual for multiple two-year -- because essentially
5 when you are elected as second vice president you are in
6 for a minimum of six years, probably eight if you go on to
7 the western part.
8 JAY DEE DOWNS: If you get reelected in or
9 whatever, then just resubmit. That's a good idea.
10 JIM GUYNN: Yeah, there's probably no real
11 reason for a term limit here.
12 JAY DEE DOWNS: I can't imagine --
13 JIM GUYNN: You may run -- you may run out of
14 candidates.
15 JAY DEE DOWNS: Subbers -- I mean, candidates.
16 GUY DANSIE: Well, and I really appreciate
17 having the same group to work through all these different
18 sections. I think it's provided the continuity we needed.
19 JEAN LUNDQUIST: It helps to know.
20 GUY DANSIE: It's so intertwined.
21 JAY DEE DOWNS: But it's hard to educate
22 somebody coming in --
23 GUY DANSIE: It is. And there's a learning
24 curve, and especially going through two Attorney General
25 counsels that we've, that's crazy.
EMS RULES TASK FORCE MEETINGAugust 26, 2015 MEETING
801.538.2333Garcia & Love
Pages 113 to 116
Page 113
1 LAUARA SNYDER: I have a question.
2 GUY DANSIE: Yeah.
3 LAUARA SNYDER: On the old one, the task force
4 directive, I was able to find that on my computer, it said
5 that 26-8a-105, department powers was to establish a
6 voluntary task force. If we become -- if we put this into
7 rule, will we still remain a task force versus a
8 subcommittee? Because I kind of like the idea of it being
9 a task force and not a subcommittee.
10 JAY DEE DOWNS: You're a task force committee.
11 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I think the title should be
12 task force. That's what the statute says. And I
13 wouldn't -- the subcommittee reports to the committee.
14 JAY DEE DOWNS: We're not a subcommittee of the
15 EMS Committee. We're not a subcommittee of the Bureau.
16 We are both. That's where the task force comes in.
17 GUY DANSIE: Right. That's how they defined it.
18 Subcommittee is actually underneath the committee.
19 JAY DEE DOWNS: Yeah.
20 GUY DANSIE: So anything they do --
21 LAUARA SNYDER: That's right.
22 GUY DANSIE: -- needs to be approved by the
23 committee. This is more of a band of rebels in here.
24 Mavericks.
25 LAUARA SNYDER: That's right.
Page 114
1 JAY DEE DOWNS: Back of the bone.
2 GUY DANSIE: I tell everybody I put the people
3 with the strongest opinions in this group so that we
4 wouldn't have to do battle with you on the back side on
5 public comment.
6 JEFF GRUNOW: Brilliant.
7 JEAN LUNDQUIST: May as well hear it here than
8 later.
9 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, that's what I tell people.
10 No, I'd rather have the opinions vetted here and the rule
11 reflecting what people have -- who have strong feelings
12 towards it. That to me is more valuable than having
13 everybody come through and agree to everything and then
14 send the rule out and it's shredded by other people. So I
15 value your opinions. Okay.
16 LAUARA SNYDER: Thank you.
17 GUY DANSIE: Well -- I guess what I need to do,
18 and I'll assign myself to this, is to rewrite that piece
19 that the peer review board has done and just reword it so
20 that it fits the needs of this group. And I'll bring it
21 back and you can each look at your category and see if
22 that sounds right and the policies. Like the appointment
23 process, the term lengths, and we can determine that at
24 our next meeting. Does that sound good? Okay.
25 LAUARA SNYDER: I have a question. One more
Page 115
1 thing, though. And I might have missed this when I had --
2 took my attention away for a minute. But as far as
3 choosing people to be on this task force, that's like in
4 the next -- I mean really biggest question that we would
5 have is who is going to decide who's going to be on that?
6 And I would suggest when you go to write this that maybe
7 there should be a subgroup of our task force that reviews
8 the applications or whatever to see who should go on it.
9 The alternative, I think, is that there's just
10 somebody from the Bureau looks at the names and goes
11 through them or the subcommittee group from the EMS
12 Committee, and I think there's two people on that, that
13 look at all the applications and they decide who would
14 best fit and propose that. But I think that like you said
15 Guy, this is sort of the rebel group that has strong
16 opinions and we know, you know, who and what. So I think
17 there should be a subgroup in our group that looks at the
18 applications.
19 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, or maybe just the group --
20 LAUARA SNYDER: What does everyone else think?
21 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Maybe the group itself.
22 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, that's what I think, just
23 have the whole group do it.
24 JIM GUYNN: You might best fit that description,
25 Lauara.
Page 116
1 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Yeah, I was going to nominate
2 Lauara.
3 LAUARA SNYDER: No, no. It needs to be a group.
4 DEAN YORK: I'm sorry. You're breaking up.
5 What was that? You are breaking up.
6 LAUARA SNYDER: Yeah.
7 JESS CAMPBELL: Swirl.
8 LAUARA SNYDER: Kind of like I ended up with my
9 phone number inactivated, right?
10 JAY DEE DOWNS: We're a small enough group that
11 we could do that.
12 GUY DANSIE: Yeah, I think so too. I don't
13 think we need to have -- honestly, I kind of disagree. I
14 don't think we need to go to a smaller group. I think
15 this group itself could probably decide that.
16 Originally when we set it up, we had -- that's
17 why we had Jay, myself and Jolene. Jolene and I
18 represented the department, and Jay was representing the
19 committee. We thought that would be the fairest way to
20 start this thing up. But now that it has a life of its
21 own, maybe we can have the current members pick the new
22 members. That sounds good.
23 LAUARA SNYDER: I agree. I like that idea to do
24 that instead of having either the sub-EMS Committee or the
25 subcommittee do it.
EMS RULES TASK FORCE MEETINGAugust 26, 2015 MEETING
801.538.2333Garcia & Love
Pages 117 to 118
Page 117
1 GUY DANSIE: Originally we thought the
2 associations we named would pick their representative. So
3 that's -- that's kind of why we chose like the different
4 associations, is that association would solicit or, you
5 know, nominate somebody in their group.
6 So -- all right. Well, is there any other
7 business? I don't know.
8 JAY DEE DOWNS: Anything else? Anybody have
9 anything else? All right. We stand adjourned.
10 GUY DANSIE: We need to pick a date.
11 (Discussion about next meeting time.)
12 JESS CAMPBELL: All right. Motion to adjourn.
13 JEAN LUNDQUIST: Second.
14 GUY DANSIE: We're done.
15 JESS CAMPBELL: Next meeting?
16 GUY DANSIE: September 30th.
17 (Discussion on meeting date and time.)
18 GUY DANSIE: September 23rd at 1 o'clock. We
19 had a little staff conflict today, so I apologize.
20 JAY DEE DOWNS: Worked out nice for me.
21 GUY DANSIE: Okay.
22 JAY DEE DOWNS: Okay. We stand adjourned.
23 Thanks everybody.
24 (Meeting was adjourned at 3:45 p.m.)
25
Page 118
C E R T I F I C A T E
STATE OF UTAH )
)
COUNTY OF UTAH )
This is to certify that the foregoing proceedings were
taken before me, Susan S. Sprouse, a Certified Shorthand
Reporter in and for the State of Utah, residing in Salt
Lake County, Utah;
That the proceedings were reported by me in stenotype, and
thereafter caused by me to be transcribed into printed
form, and that a true and correct transcription of said
testimony so taken and transcribed is set forth in the
foregoing pages, inclusive.
DATED this 8th day of SEPTEMBER, 2015.
__________________________
SUSAN S. SPROUSE, RPR, CSR
LICENSE NO. 5965543-7801
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