ambassador jacques leprette james s. sutterlin...

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ST/DPI ORAL HISTORY (02)/L3 Yale-UN Oral History Project Ambassador Jacques Leprette James S. Sutterlin, Interviewer 8 April, 1991 Paris, France NOTICE This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the United Nations. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken, rather than the written word. RESTRICTIONS This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the United Nations, Dag Hammarskjöld Library.

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  • ST/DPI ORAL HISTORY (02)/L3

    Yale-UN Oral History Project

    Ambassador Jacques Leprette James S. Sutterlin, Interviewer

    8 April, 1991 Paris, France

    NOTICE This is a transcript of a tape-recorded interview conducted for the United Nations. A draft of this transcript was edited by the interviewee but only minor emendations were made; therefore, the reader should remember that this is essentially a transcript of the spoken,

    rather than the written word.

    RESTRICTIONS This oral history transcript may be read, quoted from, cited, and reproduced for purposes

    of research. It may not be published in full except by permission of the United Nations, Dag Hammarskjöld Library.

    http://unbisnet.un.org:8080/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=13J948E7613I7.340663&menu=search&aspect=subtab124&npp=50&ipp=20&spp=20&profile=bib&ri=4&source=~%21horizon&index=.TW&term=jacques+leprette&x=0&y=0&aspect=subtab124

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    ~~, >. . "', •,YON INTERVIEWl· "'l\KBASSADOR JACQUES LEPRETTE

    fARIS, FRANCE~- . APRIL 8, 1991INTERVIEWER, JAMES SUTTERLIN NOV

    Table of Contents

    I. The Selection of Secretaries-General

    Attitude of French Government in the electionof Waldheim

    Qualifications for Secretary-General

    Attitude toward the UN of General de Gaulle

    Election of Perez de Cuellar

    Comments on election procedure

    II. The 1973 Middle East War

    outbreak of the war

    French attitude toward peace-keeping

    III. French Participation in UNIFIL

    1

    1-3

    4-6; 12-13

    6

    7-10; 14

    10-12; 14-18

    18

    19-20

    21-

    ~1f_/ ........... _

  • ¥UN INTERVIEWAMBASSADOR JACQUES LEPRETTE

    PARIS, FRANCEAPRIL 8, 1991

    INTERVIEWER, JAMES SUTTERLIN

    JSS Ambassador Leprette, I want to first thank you very much

    for agreeing to participate in this Yale Oral History

    Project on the United Nations and if we might I'd like to

    begin by discussing with you the procedure through which

    Secretaries-General of the United Nations are chosen. I

    believe that when Kurt Waldheim was selected as

    Secretary-General, you at that time were in the Foreign

    Ministry in Paris, is that correct?

    JL Yes.

    JSS And what was your position at that time?

    JL I was in charge of the United Nations and International

    organizations in the French Foreign Office.

    JSS And let me just start with a general question on that.

    In the French government - and particularly in the Quai -

    is the selection of the Secretary-General of the united

    JL

    Nations considered an important matter?

    Yes, right or wrong.

    JSS Right or wrong? And does it involve the highest levels

    of the French government?

    JL Yes

    JSS So could you describe the situation as you saw it from

    the perspective of Paris at the time a new Secretary-

    1

  • JL

    General needed to be elected to take U Thant's place?

    Yes, well the initiative came from the Austrian

    government. I remember that I was invited at a luncheon

    party by the Austrian ambassador in Paris who wanted me

    to meet with a candidate of their country by the name of

    Kurt Waldheim. We were in all something like twelve

    people around the table and not important people - I

    mean, people of my level - and discussions started with

    gentleman who was introduced to me and who was Kurt

    Waldheim. I think that Mr. Waldheim made a number of

    trips in Europe and elsewhere in the world. When the

    election day came the Austrian ambassador kept calling me

    on the phone after each tour de scrutin - how do you say

    that in English? - I don't remember how many ballots were

    cast but what struck me was that his question which was

    always the same - "You told me that France would vote for

    Mr. Waldheim - did I understand you correctly?" And my

    answer was "yes".

    JSS Was France consistent then in supporting Waldheim' s

    candidacy from the beginning?

    JL Yes.

    JSS Because there were a number of other candidates at that

    time. So what you are very clearly suggesting is that

    there was strong electioneering, you would say, in order

    to gain support for Waldheim - it was a real campaign.

    JL I have forgotten who were the others - but you might

    2

  • remind me.

    JSS Prince Sadruddin Khan was one. I believe he was vetoed,

    well, one doesn't know.

    JL I see. Well I don't remember exactly the criteria that

    were selected by France.

    JSS Now in favoring Waldheim, what was this decision based

    on? Simply the approaches of the Austrians, or an

    analysis of the strength of the potential Secretary-

    General?

    JL Well, in those days we felt that after somebody from Asia

    we would welcome a good professional coming from another

    section of the world and since there was a European, we

    had a tendency to favor a European. But that didn't mean

    at that time that we were against the others.

    JSS And the inevitable question - was anything done in Paris

    to look into the background of Mr. Waldheim given the

    fact that it was known that he had been in the German

    army?

    JL I don't remember anything on that particular point.

    Waldheim had served in Paris, first during the war - we

    knew that. He never concealed that, that he had been an

    officer in Paris. Second, he had served as a diplomat in

    Paris and I think that was considered (having served in

    Paris) good credentials •.

    JSS As clearance •••

    JL Pardon?

    3

  • JSS From the French point of view then - perhaps it has

    changed now - what did you see and what did other people

    in the French government see as the desirable qualities

    of a Secretary-General?

    JL It is very difficult to answer. The position is a very

    difficult one and I had later on occasions to see that

    more closely. In France the united Nations is the world

    organization; everybody knows that all the miseries of

    the world, one day or another, are put forward to the

    United Nations, the Security Council, other organs, other

    bodies, and this is why we consider that it is

    indispensable to have a good professional. To that

    extent it seemed to us that Kurt Waldheim had the

    training of a diplomat and since he was a European,

    probably we came to the conclusion that he would serve as

    a good high civil servant to the organization. But we

    never considered that the Secretary-General of the United .

    Nations had the stature of a head of a state, for

    instance. He is what the Charter says - the most

    important official of the organization. I don't remember

    exactly the provisions of the Charter ...

    JSS The chief administrative officer, I think it says. But

    in the background of this question is what I believe to

    have been considerable dissatisfaction in France, at

    least on the part of General ·De Gaulle, with Dag

    Hammarskjold. Was there any sense when this new

    4

  • opportunity to select a new Secretary-General came along,

    that France at least would not want another person of

    such strong and independent character as Dag

    Hammarskjold?

    JL When you use the word "strong" my reaction is, "What do

    you mean by 'strong'?" Because I'm afraid that Dag

    Hammarskjold, who was highly respected, very active, very

    able, very intelligent, highly cultivated, whom I

    remember I met within the OECD in those days - Dag

    Hammarskjold probably missed the occasion to enjoy the

    support of the most important members of the

    organization. And then he lost his strength. I don't

    know whether I make myself clear but what I am trying to

    say is that an active Secretary-General is somebody who

    dares to make reference to Article 99 of the Charter, for

    instance. They have to perform their duties, they have

    also to use their privileges when they are in that high

    position. But they have also to remember that, after

    all, they serve the countries, the member countries.

    When, due to an excess of activity, they lose the support

    of important quarters of the United Nations, they become

    weak - that's all. It's up to them to see where is the

    invisible line.

    JSS So you're suggesting that really one important

    qualification for a Secretary-General is a man or a woman

    who can maintain tolerable relations, especially with the

    5

  • Permanent Members of the Security council.

    JL It seems to me essential. Dag Hammarskjold, I am afraid,

    although he was a man of good faith and he wanted to do

    all in his power for the benefit for the community of

    nations lost, at a time, the trust of some members. They

    were difficult times, I remember it well, because in 1960

    I was in the French Foreign Office in charge of African

    Affairs - that period when we were trying, not always

    successfully, to transfer independence to former

    colonies. It was such a delicate operation that we were

    not eager to see too many people interfere, and since you

    refer to General De Gaulle and his reluctance, first I

    must say that what has been reported, that General De

    Gaulle treated the United Nations as "Ie machin", has to

    be qualified and I am ready to say something about that.

    What I want to point out is that in some difficult

    political situations, when member states have lots of

    problems to solve, or are trying to solve them, the

    activity of an international organization may not be as

    welcome as some people think, that's all. But once the

    Algerian question was solved, once the African states

    became members of the organization, you will remember

    that General De Gaulle entertained good relations with U

    Thant. The United States also felt at times that the

    united Nations didn't live up to its reputation.

    JSS That raises an interesting question, both from the past

    6

  • and for the future. At the time of the choice of the

    next new Secretary-General, that is, Perez de Cuellar, if

    I'm not mistaken, you were in New York and you were the

    Permanent Representative of France and actually serving

    on the security Council.

    JL . Before that there was the reelection of Waldheim in '76.

    JSS That was relatively uncontroversial - did you find it

    necessary to make any decision ?

    JL Well, on that particular instance we were faced with a

    decision to make which was a difficult one.

    JSS Can you elaborate on that?

    JL No. (laughter on both sides). I'll tell you the story

    later on.

    JSS Well, let's go ahead then .•

    JL And then we come to '81.

    JSS '81. And before going into some of the details there,

    I'd like to connect it with your previous comment which

    is an interesting one - and that is, the change between

    the period when decolonization was still taking place and

    when it had been completed. Would this suggest that from

    the French point of view then, in '81 or for that matter

    now, a candidate from the Third World, from the former

    colonial world, would be acceptable?

    JL I'm speaking personally. I have no official

    responsibility now and my answer is "yes" and I think

    that there are a number of well-qualified personalities

    7

  • who could highly, fill the job.

    JSS Going now to the election at the end of which Perez de

    CUellar was elected, could you describe how you saw that

    procedure, how did that work?

    JL I don't remember now how many ballots there were - maybe

    you can?

    JSS I think there were quite a few, over 20.

    JL Over 20 - what I remember, is that at one time Kurt

    Waldheim passed me a message and told me that he wanted

    to have a private conversation on what was going on

    because the first ballots hadn't been favorable, although

    he had enjoyed the votes of four permanent members out of

    the five. And since there were intermissions from time

    to time between the ballots, I went to see him and his

    question was, "what kind of advice would you give me -

    should I stay on, or what?" And of course I said, "I

    have no advice to offer because you have more information

    than I have. The French government has collected

    information on the chances of Mr. so-and-so, your chances

    and so forth and so. But we have just a limited point of

    view whereas I'm sure that with all your connections, and

    since you have been here for 10 years as Secretary-

    General, you know much better than I." But he insisted,

    he insisted in such a way that I told him that I'm not

    speaking for the French government but as an individual.

    "My feeling is that one Permanent Member is voting

    8

  • against you," and he interrupted me and said, "It is

    China". "This situation will go on," and he looked

    surprised and said to me, "but I don't follow you, I

    don't understand. What is the reason? I was invited by

    the Chinese last summer, I got a red carpet treatment.

    They were extremely friendly. They had no grievances, no

    reproach to make to me. This is why my conclusion is

    that they wanted, for a number of ballots, to vote "no",

    to show that they are not following necessarily the other

    big powers. They have their own judgment, but maybe not

    the next ballot, but the following one, they will just

    either abstain or vote in favor." I kept silent for a

    while, then answered, "This is not what I think, I'm

    sorry to say." And once more he looked surprised and

    wanted to know more, and I told him "the Chinese want to

    appear as the 'defendeur' and porte parole of the Third

    World. It is one occasion where they can send a message.

    But if they change their mind, they demonstrate nothing

    except their lack of will. What they want, according to

    our own analysis is to show to the outside world that

    there was one big country against the Europeans in favor

    of a representative of the Third World, that country was

    China". He said to me, "well, fine, maybe, I think

    you're wrong" and this is how our conversation ended.

    JSS Looking back at that experience, do you feel that the

    President of the Security Council - Ambassador otunnu,

    9

  • became the President during this, at this stage - can

    make a significant difference in the outcome of the

    selection of the Secretary-General? Was it your

    impression then, for example, that otunnu really made the

    difference in terms of the election?

    JL Mr. Otunnu was presiding over it?

    JSS Yes.

    JL I don't think so, although through awkwardness, (Which

    was not the case because I hold Mr. Otunnu as a very good

    diplomat) or lack of expertise, a President may

    complicate the proceedings. I remember other occasions

    when a president of the Security Council, unfortunately

    following the advice of somebody else, made mistakes and

    regretted it, of course. A good president, knowing the

    procedure and keeping his "sangfroid", can carry the task

    without influencing one way or another the ballots.

    Because, as far as I know, members of the Security·

    Council with few exceptions follow their instructions.

    JSS Now there were •••

    JL May I ••••

    JSS Surely•••

    JL On another occasion, I remember that I felt it necessary

    to go to Paris to get the oral instructions of my Foreign

    Minister. I got them, I went back,

    JSS On this question?

    JL Yes, a similar question - I went back to New York,

    10

  • because I didn't want to embarrass my staff, amazing as

    it is. I trusted them all, they were perfect, very good

    assistants, but I knew that there is always a curiosity

    about how France is going to vote. I had arrived at the

    conclusion that my staff didn't know the position, they

    couldn't answer. And I remember that once the whole

    thing was over, I dictated a cable to Paris, "1 voted

    according to your instructions." Actually I spared mu

    assistants some embarrassment. They had to answer all

    those who were questioning them, the junior officers very

    often, "well, amazing as it is, I don't know".

    JSS Well this is an interesting indication of the importance

    that France attributes to the election of the Secretary-

    General.

    JL Indeed.

    JSS Now, I think at this point when the Waldheim' s third term

    was being considered, there were quite a few informal

    consultations on. the part of members of the Security

    Council. My question here is, during these

    consultations, was there any real discussion of the

    qualifications of the various candidates? Sadruddin Khan

    was again a candidate, I think, and so was Salim Salim,

    as a matter of fact.

    JL Good, they had good credentials, good qualifications.

    JSS But did the members of the Council in their informal

    consultations, sit down and say, "well, it appears that

    11

  • from his curriculum vitae Sadruddin Khan may be a good

    administrator, a good manager and this is a plus in his

    case" or was it a far more informal political process?

    JL All considerations are taken into account, but there are

    things we don't know. Whether Mr. So and So is a good

    administrator or not for example. Some know but others

    don't. What I remember is that we always wanted to know

    whether the candidates had good political and diplomatic

    experience, whether they had traveled, whether they had

    been posted to Europe, for instance, things like that,

    which looks trivial, are of minor importance, but we feel

    that somebody who has lived in another country, who knows

    the languages, who has travelled a lot, who has had big

    responsibilities, will appear safer.

    JSS And now that you have had the experience of observing the

    results and now with a new election approaching, would

    you still think that this is the important question to

    raise about a potential candidate - this diplomatic

    experience, the experience of having traveled, of knowing

    languages in your opinion is still a maj or

    qualification - perhaps the first qualification?

    JL It is very difficult to establish a hierarchy among all

    the criteria, and it is not because somebody would speak

    fluent French that I would necessarily say "he's the

    best", no. But .•..

    JSS If I may just interpose here - suppose he didn't speak

    12

  • JL

    fluent French - would that be a disqualification?

    Not for France only but for a number of countries,

    France, which consider that it's easier to express one's

    self in one's language and therefore to avoid

    misunderstandings. It is not only for, I would say,

    chauvinistic reasons that for instance, French

    representatives insist on this question of language. It

    is because the literature in English when received by a

    government which doesn't use English, this literature is

    not considered as seriously as it deserves. And that

    applies to France. Of course there are now a greater

    number of young people who speak the languages - more

    particularly, English - but it is a fact that if you sent

    a memo to a French administration, since there is a

    barrier of language the memo will not be considered. And

    then in New York they will wait for an answer and never

    get it. So if for all those practical reasons we feel

    that someone fluent in several languages - I don't insist

    upon French - but several languages, first has an

    "ouverture d'esprit", an open mind, and second, will be

    in a better position to make himself understood. It's

    alright to have a good translator, it's alright to have

    a good interpreter, but I have realized that in the

    caucus of francophone heads of state the conversation is

    much more lively, much easier, much simpler, goes to the

    point much more easily than [in a multilingual group].

    13

  • JSS Just to continue with Perez de Cuellar, did you consider

    him first of all a candidate? Was he really a candidate?

    JL Perez de CUellar was not in New York but I remember very

    well the Peruvian delegation and the gentleman who was

    the head of this delegation and had been Permanent

    Representative of Peru carried on a very active campaign.

    I may say that several times a day he managed to have a

    talk with me and just made certain whether I knew who Mr.

    Perez de CUellar was, and of course I knew him very well,

    Perez de Cuellar having been the special representative

    of Kurt Waldheim on a number of occasions, and I had had

    many opportunities many occasions to talk with him on a

    variety of topics. So there was a very active Peruvian

    delegation which didn't lose a moment and which was eager

    to canvass the whole spectrum of the influential

    delegations.

    JSS So would you say there has to be some campaigning for a

    person to have a chance at success?

    JL Yes, at least for one reason. A good candidate must not

    appear to be indifferent. In order not to appear

    indifferent you've got either to have a spokesman or to

    do the job yourself, whether in the lobbies or elsewhere.

    JSS There are no written rules of procedure for the election,

    or for deciding on a recommendation in the Security

    Council for a Secretary-General. In your experience how

    were most of the candidacies put forward? Was it

    14

  • possible.for a person to become a candidate without his

    government's support?

    JL I don't think so. But there are peculiar situations.

    There were, I remember, very good candidates who were

    considered as nationals of two countries, or who were

    considered as not having a specific nationality. It

    happens very rarely but it happens.

    JSS That would have been the case with Sadruddin Khan.

    JL For instance, who was and is a very strong personality •.•

    JSS I believe that there was a Filipino who became one of the

    candidates without the sponsorship of his government. He

    was the head of the Population Fund at that time.

    JL Yes, I remember.

    JSS But it would be your view that it would be a very

    difficult disadvantage for anybody

    JL I think so.

    JSS I have just one final question in this series and that

    is, from your experience and your wisdom, what do you

    think is a desirable procedure for selecting a secretary-

    General, what could be better than the procedure which

    has been followed until now, the very informal

    procedure •••

    JL You mean, whether it could be improved?

    JSS Yes

    JL I am hesitant, because there is nothing that really

    strikes me, I don't see any kind of measure or

    15

  • initiative which would really improve the selection

    process. It's very difficult to say.

    JSS Let me pose one specific question in that regard. Brian

    Urquhart, whom you know, has written some recommendations

    which have been receiving wide attention on the sUbject

    and one of these recommendations is that what we would

    call a search committee should be established by the

    Security Council well in advance. This committee should

    actually go out and search for persons who would be well

    qualified for the position and their names would then be

    put forward by such a committee.

    JL It seems to me a good suggestion. I don't know whether

    it would prove very efficient but I'm all in favor of

    anything which can offer the community of nations the

    largest amount of information. It is true that we don't

    know everybody and the French government never boasts of

    knowing well in advance who would be necessarily a good .

    Secretary-General. Maybe we don't know enough. If

    through that procedure of Brian Urquhart we could enlarge

    the information of the member countries then I think it

    would be good.

    JSS And the really final question on this particular subj ect.

    In your experience, which was quite long in observing

    very closely the performances of secretaries-General,

    did you reach any conclusions - or for that matter, did

    the French government reach any conclusions - on changes

    16

  • JL

    in the organization in the Secretariat or in other

    aspects of the organization - which could enhance the

    effectiveness of the secretary-General? Is there

    something lacking as far you have observed?

    Well, I'm a great supporter of the UN system and for that

    reason I always welcome suggestions for improvement of

    the organization. I think that much depends on

    personalities and this is where and why the selection is

    so important. With a small group of good people you can

    perform much better than with a bigger structure with

    less qualified assistants of the Secretary-General. On

    the other hand we all know that there must be a balance

    of representation within the system. This in itself

    doesn't mean that we have to welcome less qualified

    people but when you consider that there are only, on the

    one hand, two working languages and, on the other one,

    six official languages - you cannot expect, except for

    very brilliant agents, you cannot expect that those who

    are requested to work in another language than their own

    as well as the others. For that single reason there is

    a lack of balance which reflects the lack of balance of

    the international community. I think that we've got to

    live with that. I think that those who hold high

    responsibilities within the Secretariat have to perform,

    to make sure that everybody is qualified and working

    well. For that reason I think what is very important is

    17

  • to recruit people who believe in the organization. Once

    you believe, once you accept that there are a number of

    shortcomings, that it is unavoidable, then you get the

    strength to perform your duty.

    JSS Thank you now, I'd like to change the SUbject entirely.

    Very briefly, to just go to the Middle East War which

    began in October of 1973. Where were you in the French

    service at that particular time?

    JL I was in New York. I was a member of the French

    delegation to the GA and I remember very well, I was in

    the office when the Secretary-General called the

    ambassador, the French ambassador in those days, and told

    him that war had broken out and that he wanted to consult

    with him. This is how it started and there we were, as

    all our other colleagues, following the dispatches and

    the messages coming, I mean, during the whole week.

    JSS I jUdge from what you say that, on the French side, like

    on most other sides, you had not really anticipated the

    outbreak of war at that time?

    JL No, we had not.

    JSS Even though President Sadat had clearly indicated that he

    was thinking of it?

    JL Yes, which shows that one can be wrong, (laughter) along

    with many others.

    JSS As the war developed very quickly, was there any

    inclination on the French side to take any initiative, or

    18

  • JL

    was there (as there apparently was on the part of

    Waldheim) an inclination to let the Americans take the

    lead in dealing with the situation?

    Well, in that particular part of the world, we always

    feel that whenever the Middle East is concerned, France -

    the French people I would say - are interested. I mean,

    for one reason or another because probably of Lebanon,

    they feel that they cannot be indifferent, that something

    is happening, that something has to be done and so forth.

    And on the other hand we got the feeling that the

    Americans, whenever the Middle East is concerned, feel

    that they cannot be indifferent and they have to take the

    lead and to take some initiative. I think that the

    British are in the same situation for similar reasons and

    of course, the Soviets cannot get too far away. So in

    this question of leadership, I think that we would need

    another interview to develop this idea. But the US has

    demonstrated that when they wanted to take the lead, they

    can.

    JSS I did want to pursue a related question there and that is

    the French attitude at that time (and for that matter,

    earlier) toward peacekeeping as a technique, followed by

    the UN. Just this afternoon Mr. Pineau was commenting to

    me that actually he had very early thought of the idea of

    a UN force and had suggested it to Dag Hammarskj old. Was

    the French support constant (if I may use that word) for

    19

  • the concept of peacekeeping, including in 1973 when the

    war was finally brought to a ceasefire through a UN

    resolution?

    JL You mean a UN force?

    JSS Yes.

    JL Well I have a distinct recollection (as far as this issue

    is concerned) which relates not necessarily to the events

    of 1973 but to developments which took place later on.

    In 1971 the President of the French Republic mentioned

    that if things in Lebanon became more difficult then

    France would consider helping militarily in Lebanon. In

    1976 a new French president, Giscard d'Estaing was making

    a trip in the US and somewhere (I think it was in New

    Orleans) he said vaguely, because the situation was not

    good in Lebanon, "if something happens in Lebanon France

    would consider sending military troops to the area."

    When I took over my position as ambassador I called in

    the Minister of Defense, our Secretary of Defense, and I

    told him, "Two French presidents have said that. Now I

    don't want to interfere but although no Permanent Member

    of the Security Council has sent troops as part of the

    peacekeeping forces of the UN in recent years (with the

    exception of the UK in Cyprus), our duty, considering the

    commitments of our heads of state, our duty is to

    envisage a possible involvement of France within such a

    UN action." The defense minister listened to me and said

    20

  • "You've got to talk to our Joint Chiefs of Staff", which

    I did. In 1978, March, I was in Paris. We had a

    legislative election, and the second vote was due on

    March 18, or something like that, on a Sunday. I called

    on my foreign minister. The situation had been

    deteriorating after the invasion of Lebanon by Israeli

    forces and I asked Mr. Louis de Guiringaud who had been

    my predecessor in New York and who was extremely open to

    everything coming from the UN, I asked him, "Do you think

    that we might be involved?" and he said "Yes, I'll give

    you an answer tomorrow, Sunday," (after the second ballot

    of the elections which shows that the government was

    working business as usual even under those

    circumstances). Back in New York, I went directly from

    the airport to the Security Council chambers. There my

    American colleague and my Lebanon colleague took me by

    the hand. In a remote place they told me, "Is France

    ready to send troops?" I looked astonished and said,

    "But this has never happened." They said "true, but the

    situation is different. It is different because we are

    expecting Mr. Begin on an official visit next Wednesday,

    and we want something to happen in between. We want this

    military move to stop and we don't know how to do it

    except through the UN." "Oh", I said, "well, this is new

    to me. II I turned to my assistants, who had attended the

    first speeches in the Security Council and I noticed that

    21

  • my German colleague had taken the floor and said: "we

    support the idea of sending immediately peacekeeping

    forces to Lebanon, southern Lebanon. Of course those

    would be troops coming from non-Permanent Members of the

    security council. II I turned to my American friends,

    "This is the true doctrine, he was right." He said, "no,

    we've got to correct that." Then I had a long talk with

    Waldheim who said to me, "The situation is now very

    serious. What we need is somebody to take initiative

    with the support of the Council and at the request of the

    Secretary-General. If you do that I trust that two or

    three contingents from other member countries of the UN

    might become unable??" Then I got in touch with my

    foreign minister: in the middle of the afternoon I knew

    that our answer would be, "We are ready to send a

    battalion provided that first we are not alone and

    second, it will be temporary." I remember that you were.

    present during those days: I don't want to rewrite the

    story but I want to add, to close on that matter, that I

    had suggested to my government to limit the presence of

    French troops to six months. I kept on that point until

    in September we had to, as we say in French, "couper la

    poire en deux." Instead of six months it was four

    months. Then I wrote to my government that we had

    accepted another four months, but that should be the last

    time because our mission, the one which was requested,

    22

  • had been to send a contingent immediately, in order to

    facilitate the gathering of a stronger force. That now

    has been done." The situation is not perfect, but the

    situation is better and we should now, after having given

    a decent advance notice, withdraw. That would be in

    accordance with our commitment and that would save on

    embarrassing situation later on." When I gave my

    feelings to Waldheim he listened, didn't answer, flew to

    Paris, had a private conversation with our President and

    came back apparently reassured. The French contingent -

    twelve years later - is still there. This is my

    confidential conclusion.

    JSS That's interesting, but it does show that an initiative

    on the part of the Secretary-General can have an effect.

    JL Right, and that an ambassador plenipotentiary is not as

    powerful as the credentials say.

    JSS Those are all the questions that I'm going to ask about

    the '73 War unless there's any other point that you

    wanted to make, that comes to your mind, in terms of the

    French attitude at that point.

    JL No, not particularly. I've been now away from New York

    and following what is happening, the new developments and

    the new life in the organization. I'm gratified at what

    is happening. I don't think that it is a new UN; it is

    a new environment. Let's hope that this new environment

    will stay on for a long time.

    23

  • JSS One thing that has happened just this past week that is

    relevant to what you were talking about is a decision of

    the five Permanent Members to participate in the observer

    mission in the Gulf.

    JL Yes, it's very interesting. I'm not against new

    initiatives provided that it serves the peace, safeguards

    the peace.

    JSS Thank you very very much for participating.

    24

  • Begin, Menachem

    Giscard, Valery d'Estaning

    Guiringaud, Louis de

    Hammarskjold, Dag

    Khan, Sadruddin Aga

    Perez de Cuellar, Javier

    Pineau, Christian

    Sadat, Anwar

    Salim, Salim

    Thant, U

    Urquhart, Brian

    Waldheim, Kurt

    Name Index

    2, 22

    21

    22

    5-7, 20

    4, 12, 13, 16

    1, 8, 9, 15

    20

    19

    12

    3, 7

    17

    1-5, 8, 9, 12, 15, 20, 23, 24

    25

    Leprette 8 April 1991Subject IndexTape 1ATape 2AName Index