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ME

ET

TH

E P

RE

SS

as b

road

cast natio

nw

ide b

y th

e Natio

nal B

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casting C

om

-pan

y, In

c., are prin

ted an

d m

ade av

ailable to

the p

ublic to

fu

rther in

terest in im

partial d

iscussio

ns o

f questio

ns affect-

ing th

e public w

elfare. Tran

scripts m

ay b

e obtain

ed b

y sen

d-

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copy to:

g-he .../W

cHotta

,/ Agaadm

iang ro

inlia

ng g

x-eden

es

ME

ET

TH

E P

RE

SS

Siin

ewica

'a gixed

a ro

7O

xenve ce°

de S

hit

Ls®u dfm

o. Mav

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is

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y

LA

WR

EN

CE

E. S

PIV

AK

ME

ET

TH

E P

RE

SS is teleca

st every Sunday o

ver the N

BC

Televisio

n N

et-w

ork. T

his p

rogra

m o

rigin

ated

from

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BC

Studios in Washington, D

. C.

ED

WA

RD

HE

AT

H

Lead

er of th

e Conserv

ative P

arty o

f Great B

ritain

VO

LUM

E 10 JU

NE 5, 1966

NUMBER

23

Television

Broad

cast 1:00 P.M

. ED

T

Rad

io Broad

cast 6:30 P.M

. ED

T

gal4 Jfea nw

and Yenilodicai P

ail

.44/o

n

gaiia

rs <6. A

c,

gaa .2

1//, Y

fA

ing&n, 9 C

‘f 20.04, 10 cen

ts per co

py

flans(• H

EN

RY

BR

AN

DO

N, L

ondon Sunday Tim

es M

AX

FR

AN

KE

L, T

he N

ew Y

ork T

imes

ED

WIN

NE

WM

AN

, NB

C N

ews

LA

WR

EN

CE

E. S

PIV

AK

, Perm

anent Panel M

ember

ME

ET

TH

E P

RE

SS

Mo

dera

tor:

BR

YS

ON

RA

SH

, NB

C N

ews

Perm

ission is hereby granted to news m

edia and m

agazines to reproduce in whole o

r in part. C

redit to N

BC

's ME

ET

TH

E P

RE

SS will be appreciated.

MR

. RA

SH

: Our g

uest to

day

on M

EE

T T

HE

PR

ES

S is E

d-

ward

Heath

—on h

is first visit to

this co

untry

since h

e becam

e lead

er of G

reat Britain

's Conserv

ative P

arty. H

e has b

een co

n-

ferring with top A

merican officials, including P

resident Johnson. W

e will h

ave th

e first questio

ns n

ow

from

Mr. L

awren

ce E.

Spivak, the perm

anent mem

ber of the ME

ET

TH

E P

RE

SS

Panel.

MR

. SPIV

AK

: Mr. H

eath, after the defeat of the Conservative

Party in

the last election

, you are q

uoted

as saying, "

Th

e Tory

Party is ch

angin

g and

will con

tinu

e to chan

ge."

Has th

ere been

any b

ig chan

ge yet? M

R. H

EA

TH

: Yes, I th

ink

there h

ave b

een co

nsid

erable d

e-velopm

ents. As far as policy is concerned, w

e have already de-velo

ped

policy

a great d

eal since th

e election d

efeat of 1

964.

In the House of C

omm

ons, I have reorganized the shadow C

ab-net an

d m

ade it m

uch

smaller. W

e had

70 m

embers alto

geth

er o

n o

ur fro

nt b

ench

. I hav

e no

w b

rou

gh

t them

do

wn

to 2

3, an

d

we are n

ow

starting to

reorg

anize th

e pan

el of can

did

ates for

the fu

ture an

d also th

e constitu

ency

org

anizatio

n, th

at is, the

votin

g areas fo

r our m

embers.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: In

terms of p

olicy, wh

at do you

consid

er the

most sign

ificant ch

ange th

at has tak

en p

lace in th

e Tory P

arty? M

R. H

EA

TH

: In q

uestio

ns o

f policy

, we h

ave really

set out

five major points:

The first is o

n th

e econom

y, to

emphasize m

uch

more h

igh

wage-low

cost economy in w

hich we do aw

ay with restrictions

in trad

e unio

ns;

Secondly, w

ays of dealing with w

ildcat strikes;

1

Third

ly, th

e social serv

ices, that as w

e beco

me m

ore afflu

ent,

people should contribute more them

selves; F

ou

rthly

, a great h

ou

sing

pro

gram

and

; F

ifthly

, the clear declaration that w

e want to becom

e a mem

-ber of the E

uropean economic com

munity, the C

omm

on Market.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: M

r. Heath

, Gen

eral de G

aulle seem

s to believe

that E

urop

e is too dep

end

ent u

pon

the U

nited

States. D

o you

thin

k E

nglan

d is too?

OmM

R. H

EA

TH

: We h

ave criticized

the p

resent B

ritish G

ov

ern-

ent fo

r beco

min

g to

o d

epen

den

t on th

e United

States.

I want

to m

ake th

is abso

lutely

plain

. Th

is is no

t in an

y w

ay an

ti-A

merican

. For u

s to say

in B

ritain th

at we th

ink th

at Britain

o

ug

ht to

stand

as mu

ch as p

ossib

le on

its ow

n feet in

side th

e W

estern Alliance is really som

ething which I believe is not only

health

y fo

r Britain

, bu

t also, h

ealthy

for th

e Un

ited S

tates, w

ho are o

ur b

est friends.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: Y

ou th

ink

then

Great B

ritain tod

ay is too de-

pen

den

t on A

merica. W

ould

you tell u

s in w

hat w

ay?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I th

ink

, for examp

le, the last few

mon

ths,

in w

hich

we h

ave becom

e more d

epen

den

t on th

e Un

ited S

tates for aircraft su

pp

ly and

prod

uction

, is one p

articular exam

ple.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: W

ould

you say th

at Harold

Wilson

's Govern

-m

ent is a

ny m

ore d

epen

den

t up

on

Am

erica th

an

Win

ston

C

hu

rchill's or H

arold M

acmillan

's or Alec D

ouglas-H

ome's?

MR

. HE

AT

H: W

e hav

e a traditio

n th

at wh

en w

e are abro

ad

we d

on

't criticize our g

overn

men

t as such

. I hav

e stated w

hat

we said

durin

g th

e election, b

ut I th

ink as a m

atter of fact, y

es, th

at is the case.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: I am

not ask

ing for criticism

, just th

e facts.

MR

. HE

AT

H: Y

es, that is a fact.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: T

here h

as been

criticism in

Great B

ritain of

our p

olicy in V

ietnam

. Wou

ld you

say that th

e British

Govern

-m

ent agrees w

ith ou

r policy tod

ay?

MR

. HE

AT

H: M

y understan

din

g o

f the B

ritish G

overn

men

t is th

at they

fully

sup

po

rt Am

erican p

olicy

in V

ietnam

. Th

ere has b

een so

me criticism

in th

eir left wing.

As fa

r as w

e are

concerned in the Conservative P

arty, we also have given general

sup

port to th

e Am

erican p

olicy.

MR

. SPIV

AK

: Will you give us your ow

n opinion of our policy in

Vietn

am?

MR

. HE

AT

H: T

hat is a very w

ide q

uestion

, ind

eed, isn

't it?

MR

. SPIV

AK

: Do you yourself support our policy?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I d

o as lead

er of th

e Co

nserv

ative P

arty. I

said w

e giv

e gen

eral support to

the A

merican

adm

inistratio

n,

therefo

re, their p

olicy

in V

ietnam

.

MR

. BR

AN

DO

N: N

ot long ago you

advocated

a meetin

g be-

tween G

eneral de Gaulle and P

resident Johnson. Now

, you have talk

ed to b

oth of th

em. D

o you still th

ink

that it w

ould

be u

se-ful and desirable?

MR

. HE

AT

H: Y

es, I do, but, of course, on

e has got to ch

oose th

e right m

omen

t for it. I fully u

nd

erstand

the p

reoccup

ations

of the P

residen

t. I w

as asked

at a press con

ference d

urin

g the

election w

heth

er I thou

ght th

is wou

ld b

e a good th

ing, an

d I

always th

ink

that m

eetings b

etween

the h

eads of states is a

good th

ing, p

rovidin

g you d

o it at the righ

t time.

MR

. BR

AN

DO

N: D

o you th

ink

that th

e integrated

NA

TO

w

hich General deG

attlle now opposes is a hindrance, or w

ould it h

elp tow

ards th

e un

ity of Eu

rope?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I th

ink

that th

e integration

of NA

TO

is neces-

sary in ord

er to deal w

ith th

e cond

itions of m

odern

warfare.

You

can, of cou

rse, have a d

ebate ab

out th

is, bu

t I thin

k on

e h

as to be carefu

l not to over-exaggerate th

e degree of in

tegra-tion

wh

ich exists in

NA

TO

. I don

't kn

ow ab

out h

ere in th

e U

nited

States, b

ut certain

ly in B

ritain som

e peop

le imagin

e it is integrated dow

n to almost the low

est form of com

mand. T

his, of course, is not the case. It is integrated at the highest echelons, an

d, as far as h

elpin

g the u

nity of E

urop

e is concern

ed, I d

on't

think it is necessarily connected with econom

ic developments.

MR

. BR

AN

DO

N: W

ould

you m

ore defin

e wh

at you m

ean b

y in

tegration of th

e high

er and

lower level?"

MR

. HE

AT

H: I am

thin

kin

g o

f integration in th

at you h

ave

a comm

ander of one country with very high level com

manders

ti d

irectly u

nd

er him

, bu

t it do

esn't g

o d

ow

n to

regim

ental lev

el, brigade level, even divisional level.

MR

. 'FR

AN

KE

L: M

r. Heath

, there is an

imp

ression h

ere th

at Presid

ent d

e Gau

lle's basic am

bition

is simp

ly to drive th

e U

nited

States ou

t of Eu

rope. D

o you th

ink

that is a correct

impression?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I d

on't th

ink th

at is a correct im

pressio

n, n

o,

bu

t certainly

as far as we are co

ncern

ed in

Britain

, it isn't th

e case.

MR

. FR

AN

KE

L: C

ould you tell us what you think he is up to?

MR

. HE

AT

H: P

resident de Gaulle?

MR

. FR

AN

KE

L: Y

es, sir.

MR

. HE

AT

H: W

ell, I thin

k th

at he h

as first of all in mind the

S 2

status o

f the F

rench

forces. I th

ink h

e is greatly

concern

ed

about th

at, and I th

ink h

is philo

sophy is th

at a natio

n's fo

rces don't really

respond to

the n

ation's n

eeds u

nless th

ey feel th

ey

are respo

nsib

le for th

e state of th

e natio

n an

d its d

efense. I

thin

k th

at is his first o

bjectiv

e.

MR

. FR

AN

KE

L: T

hou

gh th

ere are some d

ifferences b

etween

B

ritain an

d F

rance clearly on

NA

TO

qu

estions, you

both

are seek

ing a k

ind

of ind

epen

den

ce from th

e Un

ited S

tates in h

aving

your ow

n n

uclear forces. D

o you th

ink

it is wron

g of the U

nited

S

tates to look in

the lon

g-range to d

riving all of th

e Eu

ropean

cou

ntries ou

t of the n

uclear b

usin

ess?

MR

. HE

AT

H: M

y belief is th

at we w

ere righ

t at Nassau

, the

arrang

emen

t wh

ich M

r. Macm

illan n

ego

tiated w

ith P

residen

t K

enned

y, th

at we w

ould

contrib

ute o

ur n

uclear fo

rces to th

e g

eneral N

AT

O d

efense. W

e wo

uld

on

ly k

eep th

em in

case of

dire n

ation

al peril, an

d I th

ink

that is ju

stifiable. A

nd

I per-

fectly u

nd

erstand

if Gen

eral de G

aulle w

ants to

do

that w

ith th

e F

rench

force.

MR

. FR

AN

KE

L: W

hy d

o you n

eed an

y nu

clear weap

ons?

Why do you or F

rance or the Germ

ans conceivably need nuclear w

eapon

s; is it that you

do n

ot trust A

merican

sup

port in

case of em

ergency?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I th

ink

we h

ave all h

ad ex

perien

ce in tim

es of

war—

you find yourself in emergencies w

hich may not have been

foreseen

, and ev

ery n

ation h

as really g

ot th

e right to

take n

eces-sary

measu

res to d

eal with

that so

rt of em

ergen

cy. O

f course

I alway

s loo

k at it in

a rather w

ider sen

se wh

ich is th

at we h

ave

got th

e Atlan

tic Allian

ce and th

at in it w

e ought to

hav

e two

majo

r partn

ers, the U

nited

States an

d a u

nited

Euro

pe. I b

e-lieve that this w

ould be a healthy balance between the tw

o sides o

f the A

tlantic.

If yo

u are g

oin

g to

do

that th

en y

ou

wo

uld

hav

e som

e dev

el-o

pm

ent in

nu

clear weap

ons in

a united

Eu

rope.

MR

. FR

AN

KE

L: W

hy d

oesn't E

urop

e spen

d m

ore time an

d

energy on

creating th

is un

ion an

d th

en w

orry abou

t giving it

the n

uclear stren

gth of w

hich

you sp

eak? W

hy sh

ould

Fran

ce an

d B

ritain an

d con

ceivably G

erman

y head

off in th

eir own

directions w

ith nuclear programs?

MR

. HE

AT

H: T

here are tw

o an

swers to

that. F

irst of all,

Euro

pe h

as spen

t a tremen

dous am

ount o

f time an

d en

ergy in

try

ing

to b

ecom

e un

ited. I sp

ent so

me tw

o y

ears my

self in try

-in

g to

neg

otiate B

ritain in

to th

e Co

mm

on

Mark

et in o

rder th

at w

e should

hav

e a wid

er Euro

pean

unity

. And seco

ndly

, as far as B

ritain is co

ncern

ed, o

f course, th

e nuclear alread

y ex

ists. T

herefo

re it is no

t a qu

estion

of first o

f all gettin

g a E

uro

pean

unity

and th

en m

ovin

g to

the n

uclear.

As far as w

e are con

cerned

, we w

ere on

e of th

e orig

inal p

ar-ticipants.

MR

. NE

WM

AN

: You

said in

answ

er to a qu

estion of M

r. Spivak's that as leader of the C

onservative Party you gave general

sup

port to th

e Un

ited S

tates adm

inistration

and

therefore to

the Am

erican position in Vietnam

, which seem

ed to me a rather

lukewarm

and rather grudging support. Is th

at the im

pression

you in

tend

ed to leave?

MR

. HE

AT

H: N

ot in th

e least, no. W

hen

I say "gen

eral sup

-p

ort," w

hat I am

saying is th

at there m

ay be p

articular tactical

matters on

wh

ich th

ere can w

ell be ju

stifiable d

ebate b

etween

m

ilitary experts in

both

coun

tries. Th

at is wh

at I had

in m

ind

, but as far as—

when I say general and broad support, that m

eans on

the p

olicies as a wh

ole. ii

MR

. NE

WM

AN

: You

are not d

isqu

ieted b

y the p

osition in

w

hich

the U

nited

States fin

ds itself in

Vietn

am?

MR

. HE

AT

H: T

his is a h

orrible w

ar, everybod

y recognizes

that an

d, I th

ink

, nob

ody m

ore than

the p

eople of th

e Un

ited

States an

d th

e mem

bers of th

e Ad

min

istration; an

d th

e prob

-lem

s—I think this is the m

ost difficult problem w

hich any country has had to handle or any governm

ent has had to handle since the en

d of W

orld W

ar II in 1945. O

f course w

ith a p

roblem

of that

scale and

difficu

lty, you w

ill have som

e differen

ces of opin

ion

abou

t the w

ay it is han

dled

. Bu

t that d

oesn't in

any w

ay alter the general approach.

MR

. NE

WM

AN

: Are you

aware of an

y disru

ptive effect on

the A

tlantic Alliance by the V

ietnam w

ar, by the Am

erican part in

it? M

R. H

EA

TH

: I don't th

ink so

ci---io.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: M

r. Heath

, one of you

r leadin

g pap

ers, the

Man

chester G

uard

ian, in

a front p

age story the oth

er day said

, and I quote "If uninhibited, the P

rime M

inister would probably

say that Am

erican policy on Vietnam

has been wrong on alm

ost every count."

Is that a

fair sta

temen

t, or is th

at ju

st the M

an

chester

Guardian's—

M

R. H

EA

TH

: Yo

u are ask

ing

me tw

o th

ing

s there, first o

f all, ex

actly w

hat is th

e Prim

e Min

ister's priv

ate view

, which

I d

on

't kn

ow

, and

secon

dly

, is the M

anch

ester Gu

ardian

righ

t in

describ

ing it in

this w

ay an

d say

ing th

at that is a g

eneral ap

-proach.

It certainly

do

esn't ap

ply

as far as we in

the C

on

servativ

e P

arty are co

ncern

ed, an

d I d

on't th

ink it ap

plies to

the g

reat m

ajority

of th

e peo

ple in

Britain

.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: T

here h

ave been

press rep

orts in th

is coun

try,

4 6

too, that a m

ajority of both

Lab

or and

Con

servative mem

bers

of Parliam

ent h

ave basic m

isgivings ab

out A

merican

policy.

MR

. HE

AT

H: N

o, I do

n't accep

t that.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: Y

ou d

on't accep

t that at all?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I d

on't even

accept it for th

e Lab

or Party. I

don

't thin

k th

ere is a majority of th

e Lab

or Party w

hich

has

got misgivin

gs.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: A

fter your retu

rn from

a trip to S

outh

Asia

and

Sou

theast A

sia you favored

takin

g every possib

le step to

secure a n

egotiated settlem

ent, an

d th

is shou

ld b

e the basis,

you said

, of British

policy.

Is there an

ythin

g you th

ink

that G

reat Britain

can d

o to h

elp b

ring ab

out a n

egotiated settlem

ent n

ow?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I d

on't b

elieve that a n

egotiated settlem

ent is

possib

le, wh

ether it is n

egotiated d

irectly by th

e adm

inistration

or w

ith h

elp from

outsid

e, throu

gh th

e Un

ited N

ations, w

hat-

ever mean

s may b

e adop

ted, u

ntil th

e Viet C

ong an

d th

e North

V

ietnam

ese realize that th

ey can n

ot win

. Th

en I th

ink

there

will b

e a situation

in w

hich

a negotiation

in som

e form or oth

er w

ill be p

ossible.

Wh

at we in

Britain

can d

o wh

en th

at mom

ent arises is to

work

with

the oth

er co-chairm

an, th

e Soviet U

nion

, in ord

er to bring about a conference in w

hich those concerned can take part to get th

e settlemen

t.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: Y

ou are sayin

g that at th

e presen

t time you

think that your governm

ent can do very little to bring the parties to th

e conferen

ce table?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I th

ink

that is so, yes.

MR

. BR

AN

DO

N: T

here have been indications lately that anti-A

merican

ism is arisin

g amon

g British

bu

sinessm

en an

d in

du

s-trialists, d

ue to th

e dom

inan

ce of Am

erican econ

omic p

ower.

Th

ey are qu

ite an in

fluen

tial segmen

t of the C

onservative P

arty. I w

as wondering how

it affects your Party and your ow

n policies? M

R. H

EA

TH

: I don

't believ

e there is an

y anti-A

mericanism

in

our P

arty, and

I wou

ldn

't have said

that th

ere was very m

uch

in

British

bu

siness. W

hat th

ey d

o rea

lize is that it is a

tre-m

endous task competing w

ith the industrial power of the U

nited S

tates. Th

e econom

y is so mu

ch larger th

an ou

rs, has very h

igh

qu

ality of man

agemen

t, it is an en

tirely free enterp

rise econom

y w

ith im

men

se drive. It h

as all the resou

rces of mod

ern tech

-n

ology. We h

aven't got th

at, and

that, of cou

rse, is one of th

e reasons w

hy I want to have a larger E

uropean market. T

hat will

then

giv

e us th

e base o

n w

hich

, giv

en a

bit o

f time, w

e can

develop our ow

n technology.

MR

. BR

AN

DO

N: B

ut how w

ould you develop the bigger coin-

6

petitive u

nits in

Eu

rope th

at could

comp

ete with

the U

nited

S

tates? M

R. H

EA

TH

: It is begin

nin

g to h

app

en in

the C

omm

on Mar-

ket itself, o

f course, th

at has a m

arket o

f a 160 o

r 175 m

illion

peo

ple. If w

e were in

it, and if o

ther co

untries o

f the E

uro

pean

F

ree Trad

e Asso

ciation w

ere in it o

r associated

with

it that w

ould

g

ive u

s a mark

et of aro

un

d ab

ou

t 25

0 m

illion

peo

ple. A

ssum

ing

you h

ave a m

arket o

f that size w

ithout an

y tariff b

arriers in it

—fo

r exam

ple, h

ere there are n

o tariff b

arriers with

in th

e states, but ju

st one larg

e mark

et—th

en y

ou w

ill find in

dustry

itself fo

rced b

y th

e pressu

re of ev

ents to

move to

ward

s larger u

nits.

Once th

ey g

et the larg

er units th

ey g

et the larg

er resources fo

r research

and d

evelo

pm

ent, an

d th

en, th

ey can

get to

work

on th

e n

ew tech

no

log

y.

MR

. BR

AN

DO

N: Y

ou are n

ot thin

kin

g of comm

on p

rojects like the C

oncord?

MR

. HE

AT

H: T

he comm

on projects help, but you see a co

m-

mo

n p

roject p

rod

uces a p

articular p

rob

lem o

f decisio

n-m

akin

g.

Yo

u h

ave tw

o sep

arate firms, an

d at each

level th

ey h

ave to

co-

op

erate in o

rder to

mak

e decisio

ns, an

d if th

ere is a difference o

f view

, it com

es finally

to th

e bo

ard o

f the tw

o co

mp

anies an

d

then

finally

beco

mes a p

olitical o

ne b

etween

the tw

o g

overn

-m

ents.

Th

is at least mean

s usin

g u

p p

reciou

s time. If y

ou

are really

goin

g to

hav

e effective d

ecision-m

akin

g w

ith th

e latest technol-

og

y, I th

ink

yo

u h

ave to

do

it really th

rou

gh

a un

ity, an

d th

at o

nly

com

es abo

ut w

hen

yo

u h

ave a u

nified

mark

et.

MR

. FR

AN

KE

L: W

e hear m

uch

here th

ese days th

at Eu

rope

is becom

ing isolation

ist, that sh

e is not as con

cerned

as the

Un

ited S

tates with

the w

orldw

ide com

mitm

ents in

the F

ar East

and

other p

arts of the w

orld. B

ritain of cou

rse has b

een an

ex-cep

tion to th

at. Is Britain

, in m

oving closer to E

urop

e, also be-

comin

g more isolation

ist in th

is sense?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I d

on't b

elieve th

at Euro

pe is iso

lationist, an

d

I do

n't b

elieve th

at Britain

in its b

road

ou

tloo

k is iso

lation

ist. I m

ay so

metim

es at ho

me criticize m

y o

wn

go

vern

men

t by

say-

ing

they

are takin

g step

s wh

ich I th

ink

reflect an in

sular ap

-pro

ach, b

ut I d

on't th

ink as a co

untry

we are iso

lationist in

that

sense.

I just sa

y th

is, that th

e E

uro

pean p

ow

ers h

ave h

ad to

go

throu

gh a p

eriod of very great con

traction of w

orld resp

onsi-

bilities b

ecause of th

e develop

men

t of ind

epen

den

ce of so man

y countries.

This h

as been

a long an

d h

ard an

d p

ainfu

l road for

everybod

y to follow, an

d I th

ink

it is qu

ite natu

ral that so

me

of th

em sh

ould

hav

e a period of revival, of regaining strength in th

eir balan

ce and

so on. T

his is tru

e I thin

k of T

he N

etherlan

ds

and

the D

utch

Em

pire, certain

ly of the F

rench

and

the F

rench

7

T-4

Em

pire, th

e Belg

ians an

d th

e Belg

ian E

mpire an

d tru

e also o

f o

urselv

es to a co

nsid

erable ex

tent. B

ut if y

ou

hav

e com

e to tak

e th

e criteria of aid

in th

e rest of th

e wo

rld, fo

r exam

ple, w

ell the

Fren

ch are d

oin

g m

ore in

aid in

vario

us fo

rms th

an w

e are in

Britain

or y

ou

are in th

e Un

ited S

tates pro

po

rtion

ately.

MR

. FR

AN

KE

L: If it is n

ot to be isolation

ist, wh

at do you

th

ink

Eu

rope's in

terests in w

orld b

eyond

will b

e, prim

arily in

rapp

rochem

ent w

ith th

e Soviet U

nion

and

the C

omm

un

ist part

of Eu

rope or n

ew form

s of econom

ic interests in

the form

er colon

ial areas? Wh

at do you

thin

k w

ill be th

e prim

ary thru

st of E

urop

ean w

orld in

terest? M

R. H

EA

TH

: On

e of th

e ma

in th

rusts a

t the m

om

ent is

econom

ic, in th

e develop

ing cou

ntries, b

ut th

e prim

ary thru

st m

ust alw

ays be th

e main

tenan

ce of the freed

om an

d th

e ind

e-p

end

ence of E

urop

e itself. If this m

eans at th

e same tim

e that

we c

an w

ork

alo

ng w

ith th

e S

ovie

t Unio

n a

nd th

e E

aste

rn

Scia

list blo

c, so

much th

e b

ette

r, and I a

m su

re th

at n

obody

wan

ts it mo

re than

the A

merican

peo

ple as w

ell. We d

on

't wan

t to

contin

ue a state o

f cold

war so

long as w

e can reach

a settle-m

ent.

MR

. FR

AN

KE

L: D

o you see an

ythin

g on th

e agend

a of con-

ceivable n

egotiations w

ith M

oscow to stab

ilize Eu

rope fin

ally? M

R. H

EA

TH

: I don

't on th

e imm

ediate agen

da, n

o. I must be

qu

ite frank

abou

t that. I th

ink

that w

hile th

e Vietn

amese w

ar is goin

g on, it is very d

ifficult to m

ake fu

rther p

rogress in th

at direction.

MR

. NE

WM

AN

: Mr. H

eath, you

said a few

min

utes ago th

at you

wou

ld lik

e to see Britain

stand

on h

er own

feet with

in th

e A

lliance. I lived

in En

gland

for eight years, an

d I u

sed to h

ear th

at from B

ritish p

oliticians, if I m

ay say so, at least three tim

es a w

eek, an

d I th

ink

it is still going on

. Wh

at do you

mean

by

that? T

he last tim

e Britain

stood on

her ow

n feet w

ithin

the

Allian

ce was S

uez, w

hich

did

n't w

ork ou

t very well, so w

hat d

o you

really have in

min

d?

MR

. HE

AT

H: A

s a matter of h

istorical accu

racy, w

e weren

't o

n o

ur o

wn

feet. It was a F

ranco

-British

action

. W

hat I m

ean is, as I h

ave ex

plain

ed, th

at we sh

ou

ld w

ork

in

a wid

er Euro

pean

contex

t to m

ake o

ur eco

nom

y m

ore efficien

t an

d m

ore effectiv

e. We sh

ou

ld try

and

dev

elop

ou

r ow

n tech

-nolo

gy an

d n

ot rely

solely

on th

e United

States fo

r the su

pply

o

f techn

olo

gical in

form

ation

as a result o

f all the o

rigin

al wo

rk

do

ne o

ver h

ere. N

ow

, of c

ou

rse, th

is affe

cts so

man

y d

iffere

nt sp

here

s. It affects th

e norm

al industrial sp

here. It also

affects space. W

e h

ave b

een tak

ing

part in

EL

DO

, wh

ich w

e created—

the E

uro

- p

ean L

aun

cher O

rgan

ization

and E

SR

O, w

hic

h is th

e sp

ace

research o

rgan

ization

.

I hear n

ow

that th

e British

Go

vern

men

t is to w

ithd

raw fro

m

the E

uro

pean

Lau

nch

er Org

anizatio

n. T

his to

me an

d to

my

colleag

ues w

ho created

it is a matter fo

r regret, an

d, o

f course,

there

is mu

ch

fallo

ut in

diffe

ren

t sph

ere

s in sp

ace a

s well,

all sorts o

f dev

elopm

ent o

f electronics, m

iniatu

rization, m

edicin

e. If w

e rely so

lely o

n th

e United

States, w

e hav

e no p

art in it o

ur-

selves, w

e hav

e no

incen

tive fo

r the p

eop

le we train

in th

e sci-en

ces and th

e technolo

gy to

stay an

d w

ork

with

us.

MR

. NE

WM

AN

: Are you not given considerable difficulty by

the fact th

at you req

uire A

merican

sup

port of fin

ancial m

atters to protect the pound w

hich imposes restrictions on your policies

elsewhere, especially foreign policy?

MR

. HE

AT

H: T

he state of th

e pou

nd

, if the p

oun

d h

as to be

sup

ported

that, of cou

rse, in an

y case is bou

nd

to imp

ose re-strictions on dom

estic policy. If th

e IFM

help

s any cou

ntry, th

en, of cou

rse, that is th

e case. M

R. S

PIV

AK

: Mr. H

eath, th

ere has b

een con

cern in

some

qu

arters that P

residen

t de G

aulle m

ay sign a n

on-aggression

p

act w

ith R

ussia

on

his co

min

g v

isit. Do

yo

u see th

at a

s a

possibility?

MR

. HE

AT

H: D

o you m

ean a n

on-aggression

p

act betw

een

Fran

ce and th

e Soviet?

It is, I sup

pose, a p

ossib

ility, y

es.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: W

hat effect d

o you th

ink

someth

ing of th

at kind w

ould have upon the NA

TO

military organization?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I d

on't th

ink it w

ill hav

e any effect o

n th

e 14. M

R. SP

IVA

K: Y

ou don't think it would really lead to N

AT

O's

complete disintegration?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I d

on't th

ink

so, no.

MR

. SP

IVA

K: W

ith F

rance com

pletely ou

t? M

R. H

EA

TH

: I don't think so, no. M

R. B

RA

ND

ON

: Do you

thin

k th

at Gen

eral de G

aulle's con

-cep

t of Eu

rope from

the A

tlantic to th

e Urals is a realistic on

e? M

R. H

EA

TH

: It is a visio

n o

f Gen

eral de G

aulle's th

at Euro

pe

sho

uld

go

forw

ard ag

ain to

the so

rt of u

nity

it on

ce had

in w

hich

th

e barriers are b

rok

en d

ow

n. I d

on

't thin

k th

at in th

e imm

edi-

ate futu

re this is lik

ely to

com

e abo

ut.

MR

. BR

AN

DO

N: B

ut you

thin

k it m

ight com

e abou

t; you

as the forem

ost Eu

ropean

in E

nglan

d tod

ay, do you

thin

k th

at th

is is a possib

ility? M

R. H

EA

TH

: If one thinks in the v

ery lo

ng term

, it is possi-

ble to

conceiv

e that th

e Eastern

Socialist S

tates would

move

8

9

away

from

a state-contro

lled eco

nom

into

a more lib

eral econ-

om

y. T

here are sig

ns—

Polan

, 'n

g to

beco

me a m

ember

of th

e GA

TT

, or tak

e part in

the G

AT

T, o

r signs in

Rum

ania.

But th

is has co

me ab

out after n

early 2

0 y

ears, and it is still

a very

grad

ual d

evelo

pm

ent. O

ne h

as to lo

ok q

uite a lo

ng w

ay

in th

e futu

re befo

re you can

see a unity

of th

at kin

d eco

nom

ic-ally or defense-w

ise or politically. M

R. F

RA

NK

EL

: Mr. H

eath, given the present government of

Fran

ce and

Britain

, wh

at is a good b

et? Wh

at are the od

ds th

at B

ritain w

ill join th

e Com

mon

Mark

et in th

e next five years?

MR

. HE

AT

H: O

f course, in

the n

ext fiv

e years w

e shall h

ave

another election in Britain, and w

e shall be back in power. T

hen th

e situatio

n w

ill hav

e chan

ged

. M

R. F

RA

NK

EL

: May I ask

you, u

p to th

at election w

hat are

the od

ds?

MR

. HE

AT

H: U

p to th

at election?

MR

. FR

AN

KE

L: Y

es. M

R. H

EA

TH

: I am n

ot a b

etting m

an m

yself, b

ut I th

ink th

e situ

ation is really

this: if w

e are to b

ecom

e a mem

ber o

f the

Com

mon M

arket, B

ritain h

as to accep

t the C

om

mon M

arket as

it is. It is much

too late fo

r us to

try to

alter the m

ake-u

p o

f th

e Com

mon M

arket itself, o

r its rules an

d reg

ulatio

ns, b

road

ly

speak

ing, o

r its prin

ciples.

If we h

ad tak

en p

art in th

e Coal an

d S

teel Com

munity

, the

Schum

an Plan in 1950, w

e'd all have grown up together and de-

veloped together, and we w

ould have all had our part in influenc-in

g it, so

this is th

e first thin

g, to

accept it as it is.

MR

. NE

WM

AN

: Is it also a sign of ch

ange w

ithin

Britain

, th

an F

rance?

MR

. HE

AT

H: T

hat stage d

epen

ds en

tirely o

n B

ritain. T

he

next stage depends on the comm

unity as a whole. I don't believe

they

wan

t to start n

egotiatin

g u

ntil th

ey h

ave g

ot th

e Com

mon

Market set up com

pletely, and that means the first of July, 1968,

which

is now

two y

ears away

. So th

at part d

epen

ds o

n th

em.

And th

e third

part d

epen

ds o

n th

e Presid

ent o

f Fran

ce, as to

whether he is prepared to have B

ritain as a mem

ber of the Com

-m

on M

arket, an

d I b

elieve th

at befo

re we reach

that p

ositio

n

the F

rench

wan

t to see th

e questio

n o

f the sterlin

g in

deb

tedness

sorted out, because when w

e become a m

ember of the com

munity

the o

ther m

embers u

ndertak

e certain o

blig

ations to

ward

s us in

case o

f balan

ce of p

aym

ents tro

ubles, an

d so

on. A

nd h

e wan

ts to

know

about fu

ture d

efense an

d p

olitical arran

gem

ent fo

r E

urope. M

R. F

RA

NK

EL

: It sounds like long odds. M

R. H

EA

TH

: Yes.

MR

. RA

SH: W

e have just about two m

inutes. Mr. N

ewm

an. M

R. N

EW

MA

N: M

r. Heath

, there h

as lately been

great B

ritish in

fluen

ce amon

g youn

g peop

le in E

urop

e and

in th

e U

nited

States in

such

thin

gs as clothes, m

usic, len

gth of h

air, gen

eral outlook

. Is that a su

perficial th

ing, or is it a sign

of som

ethin

g deep

er the B

ritish are b

ringin

g abou

t? M

R. H

EA

TH

: I thin

k it is a sig

n o

f imm

ense v

itality. O

f course, it hasn't all started from

Britain. T

he Italians introduced a g

ood m

any sty

les them

selves w

hich

were th

en tak

en u

p b

y

the y

oung B

ritish. A

s far as "beat" is co

ncern

ed, I su

ppose

we started

it very

largely

, and it sp

read in

to E

uro

pe, b

ut su

rely

what is in

teresting ab

out it is th

at the y

outh

of E

uro

pe is n

ow

m

ixin

g so

much

. I m

ean, when I w

as young—I w

as born by the coast—I alw

ays lo

oked

across th

e Chan

nel, ju

st by D

over, an

d I u

sed to

go

across d

urin

g h

olid

ays fro

m sch

ool. I u

sed to

hitch

hik

e and so

on, b

ut it w

asn't d

one a g

reat deal. B

ut n

ow

it is taken

as per-

fectly automatic, and you go across on the scooter or som

ething. A

nd th

e Germ

ans are m

ixin

g so

much

with

the F

rench

. This is

the ex

citing th

ing.

MR

. NE

WM

AN

: Is it also a sign of ch

ange w

ithin

Britain

th

at the you

ng p

eople h

ave a position

they n

ever had

before?

MR

. HE

AT

H: Y

es, I think it is. I think it is a different balance in

society

, and I th

ink th

at is a very

health

y th

ing.

MR

. NE

WM

AN

: Wh

at brou

ght it ab

out? T

he loss of colon

ies p

erhap

s—d

id th

at have som

ethin

g to do w

ith it?

MR

. HE

AT

H: I d

on't th

ink d

irectly, n

o, b

ut I th

ink w

ith

the g

row

th o

f educatio

n an

d w

ith o

ur m

uch

hig

her stan

dard

of

livin

g in

the last 1

5 y

ears, this h

as had

its effect on y

outh

s. M

R. SP

IVA

K: M

r. Heath, there are m

any observers here who

believe th

e British

Com

mon

wealth

has ou

tlived its u

sefuln

ess. D

o you th

ink

so? M

R. H

EA

TH

: No, I d

on't. I b

elieve th

ere is still a part fo

r the C

omm

onwealth to play, and for this reason: W

e have a com-

mon lan

guag

e. We h

ave all h

ad ex

perien

ce of B

ritish ad

min

is-tration, for good or ill. T

here is a great deal in comm

on between

our law

and leg

al system

s, betw

een th

e pro

fessions an

d so

on,

and th

is enab

les us to

talk to

each o

ther th

e whole tim

e, even

w

hen we have differences, as I don't believe any other countries

can talk

to each

oth

er, excep

t perh

aps B

ritain an

d th

e United

S

tates.

MR

. RA

SH

: I am

sorry

to in

terrupt, b

ut o

ur tim

e is up.

Thank you, M

r. Heath, for being w

ith us today on ME

ET

TH

E

PR

ES

S.

10 11