adjectival passives

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Thread: Adjectival Passives (threads/133890-Adjectival-Passives?s=8e31b4a5db114d10ce72d4b19e9c7a53)

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02-Nov-2010, 13:46

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Adjectival Passives

Are adjectival passives real passives? Can anyoneexplain why they are considered as real passives orwhy they are not? Here are some examples:

(1) The window was broken (ambiguous: verbal oradjectival)

(2) The window was broken by vandals(unambiguously verbal)

(1) describes either an event (verbal passive) or itdescribes a state (adjectival passive).

(2) is said to be verbal only as the by-phrase isincompatible with an adjectival construction.

Now let's consider another example:

(3) The seat remained occupied by another student

Does it sound odd? If no, is it a verbal passive oradjectival passive?

Thnx for your support! :)

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02-Nov-2010, 17:50

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Re: Adjectival Passives

Even if it is acceptable (which I doubt, but, not being a native speaker, I'm not in a position tojudge), it will be adjectival passive by your classification. An event implies changes in the situationas time goes by, a state does not.


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Originally Posted by goober (showthread.php?s=8e31b4a5db114d10ce72d4b19e9c7a53&p=672473#post672473)

Are adjectival passives real passives? Can anyone explain why they are considered as realpassives or why they are not? Here are some examples:

(1) The window was broken (ambiguous: verbal or adjectival)

(2) The window was broken by vandals (unambiguously verbal)

(1) describes either an event (verbal passive) or it describes a state (adjectival passive).

(2) is said to be verbal only as the by-phrase is incompatible with an adjectival construction.

Now let's consider another example:


Does it sound odd? If no, is it a verbal passive or adjectival passive?


02-Nov-2010, 23:29

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Yes, it sounds odd, so odd that I cannot imagine it being uttered. Others may disagree.

The seat remained unoccupied is fine. This, I imagine is an adjectival passive.

Once you add by another student it becomes, to me, unacceptable. If we were to rephrase it as:The seat was not occuped by another student (for the remainder of the journey) then it would bea verbal passive.

What do others think?


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Does it sound odd? If no, is it a verbal passive or adjectival passive?


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03-Nov-2010, 16:00

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Thank you for your response! Well, I thought that it sounded odd but I wasnt sure though.Anyways, what about the following one?

The seat was still occupied by a student.

Isn't it an adjectival construction as 'still' implies that the event of occupying the seat has alreadytaken place? 'occupy' is, I think, a dynamic verb yet 'still' forces the stative reading, right?


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03-Nov-2010, 16:25

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I give up!

Ok, one little try . This is a personal response, not one that claims to have the force ofauthority.

It's possible to read this as a passive with the verb used in a dynamic sense:

Only teachers were allowed to sit down on the seat in front of the principal's office, but the seatwas still occupied by a student at 9 o'clock yesterday when the secretary turned her back for amoment.I concede that this is an unlikely utterance, but it's possible, with still meaning despite what's justbeen said.

My general approach to such constructions is that it is simplest to regard past participle/passive/adjective words as adjectives unless it is clear that a passive verb meaning is intended. I knowthat begs the question, "Who decides what is clear?" but I have learnt to live with that.

So: 1. The seat was still occupied. 2. The seat was still free.

The underlined words are (used as) adjectives.

The addition to #1 of by the student suggests that it should be read as a passive construction. Idon't think still affects a stative/dynamic reading at all.


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03-Nov-2010, 17:10

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Some verbs have dual nature. They may indicate a point-action or an action of duration dependingupon context. 'Occupy' is one of such. That's why 'The seat was occupied by a student' soundsambiguous: does it mean that the student was sitting, or that he sat down? When you add 'still' itleaves no doubt that a state is meant, not a movement. So by your classification it's adjectivalpassive.


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04-Nov-2010, 15:49

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well, according to Ward, Birner, and Huddleston (2002), 'still', 'very', 'too', etc. force the stativereading of a passive construction. In other words, it could be considered as an adjectivalconstruction due to the stative meaning of corresponding verb. Consider:

- The village was surrounded by troops from the First Battalion

this is again "ambiguous between a dynamic and a stative interpretation: either the troops movedinto position around the village or else they were already in that position. Note that adding theaspectual adjunct 'still' [...] forces the stative reading" (2002).

- The village was still surrounded..."

Anyways, thnx for you help! :)


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04-Nov-2010, 16:31

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(1) The window was broken <ambiguous>

Meaning: someone broke the windowVerbal Passive

the window was acted upon

Meaning: the window = brokenAdjectival Passive

the state of the window is described

(2) The window was broken by vandals <unambiguous>

Meaning: vandals broke the windowVerbal Passive

the window was acted upon

(3) The seat remained occupied by another student. <adjective>

Note that:

"occupied" describes the noun "seat"

The seat remained occupiedMeaning: the seat = occupied

Adjective

a by-phrase does not always signal a passive construct

Ex: The vase remained filled by/with flowers

vase = filledadjective

"flowers" is not the subject

(3) The seat remained occupied by/with another student.

seat = occupiedadjective

"another student" is not the subject

04-Nov-2010, 18:34

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Thnx for your help! You made it much easier! Now I have got another question, if you don't mind.Can you explain the difference between to be surprised at something / someone and to besurprised by something or someone? I don't see any difference at all.

Example:

a) President Bush was surprised at the question

b) President Bush was surprised by the question

Last edited by goober; 04-Nov-2010 at 18:41.

05-Nov-2010, 12:42

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They differ semantically, but ever so slightly which gives the appearance that speakers are usingthem synonymously:

surprised by X

Bush was surprised by the question

surprised at (the Y of) X

Bush was surprised at (the audacity of) the question

But the real question is not what they mean, but whether or not they differ structurally. Let's see.

Looking now at the structure, the conventional way of treating ANNOYING verbs (e.g., pleased,terrified, satisfied, interested, impressed) is to assume that "by" signals a passive construct(Verbal Passive) and that all other prepositions (e.g., at, with) signal a copular + past participleconstruct (Adjectival Passive). The problem with that assumption, however, is that not all "by"phrases introduce an agent, as we have already seen (i.e., the vase is filled by/with flowers; theseat remained occupied by/with another student), and for a construct to be a true passive, itrequires an agent, a doer. We do not find that, here, in "Bush was surprised by the question." Thesubject "Bush" is not acted upon (Cf. The cat was hit by the car--the cat is acted upon); rather theperson "Bush" experiences a state (of being):

Bush was surprised by the question.Bush = surprised

copular + past participle constructAdjectival Passive

But, let's ignore theta-roles and true passive, as they are not really all that of an issue indetermining whether an -ed word functions as a Verbal Passive or as an Adjectival Passive.

One test used to determine whether or not an ANNOYING types, like "surprised by" is a passiveparticiple (Verbal Passive) or a past participle (Adjectival Passive) is to insert the word "very", asonly adjectives can be modified by that word:

Bush was very surprised by the question "surprised" = past participle <Adjectival>

The question very surprised Bush "surprised" = past tense verb <Verbal>

Now, if the sentence, "Bush was very surprised by the question" were a passive construct (houseda passive participle), then its active form would be "The question *very surprised Bush", which isungrammatical. This tells us that those two constructs do not share the same underlying meaning,or underlying structure.

Compare:

The window was very broken. "broken" = passive participle <Verbal>

Vandals very broke the window. "broke" = past tense verb

The seat remained very occupied by/with another student. "occupied" = adjective


Can you explain the difference between to be surprised at something / someone and to besurprised by something or someone? I don't see any difference at all.

Example:

a) President Bush was surprised at the question.

b) President Bush was surprised by the question

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In short, "very" cannot modify a passive participle (Verbal Passive).

Bush was surprised by/at the news <adjective>

_________________Further Reading Pages 166 - 169 (http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=19PDGPGqcjAC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=semantics+%22surprised+at/by%22&source=bl&ots=cHTO4umj71&sig=lAxFhtNPmWXxl6k7XC70N0tMd80&hl=en&ei=Zt_TTIyKIsfQcZS8gZkF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

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