[15 ArruL, 1942.] 2913

the people concerned may know more aboutthe business. Such information has alreadybeen supplied to Plaimar & Co. and otherfirms. It is not a case of asking the Gov-ernment for mroney but of getting informa-tion. We also want to be guaranteed thatthe tinplate for canning is forthcoming orthat the military will take the vegetableswithout their being canned. So long astinipiate is available, there will be quitesufficient production in Albany to warrantthe development of this important work. Isupport the motion.

On motion by Hon. E. M. Heenan, debateadjourned.

Homse adjiourned at 5.5 p.m.

Wednesday, 15th April, 1942.

Questions: RRUlways, Standardisaton and dupica.tion ... .. ... .. ... ..

flence-(1) Slift trenches In school ground,(2) Rtes for V.DXC. .... .... .... ...

Mining, Lake Csampion alunifte deposit ..Agriculture, sheep and wol adviserBettng , . to co-ordination tn punishment ..

Prirliego:e s report, Ron. W. D. Johnson and the" West Australian". .. ... .. ..

Motion: Printngp Miniterial Statement, as to State'sWr Efort .. .. .. .. ..

lave to continue .... ......... .... ....

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The SPEAKER took the Chair at 11 a.m.and read prayers.

QUESTION-RAILWAYS,

Stansdardisation and Duplication.

Mr. NORTH asked the Premier: 1, Hasthe urgent problem of standardising andduplicating railways been assigned to Mr.Theodore and the Allied Works Council?2, Is it within the province of the StateMinistry at the present time to influence theearly construction of such works, particu-larly in relation to a through route on stan-dard gauge between Brisbane and Fremantleby the conversion of Broken Hill to PortPinie, and Kalgoorlie to Fremantle?

The PREMIER replied: 1, The appoint-ment of Mr. Theodore was made by theCommonwealth Government, and the StateGovernment bas no detailed information re-garding his duties. 2, The State Govern-ient has held consultations with a represen-tative of the Allied Works Council and isdoing everything in its power to assist theCouncil in its work.

QUESTIONS (2)-DEFENUE.

Slit Trenches in School Grounds.

Mr. NORTH asked the Minister represent-ing the Minister for Education: Is it theintention to provide timber reinforcement toslit trenches in school grounds?

The MINISTER FOR THE NORTH-WEST replied: No. Timber reinforcementof slit trenchecs in school grounds is notfavoured by the Shelters Committee.

Rifles for T'.D.C.Mr. STUBBS asked the Minister for

Mines: 1, Is he aware that there are thous-ands of menl in this State who devote sparstime Saturdays and Sundays to drilling andhome defence! 2, Is he aware that not morethan 3 per cent. of these men have rifles?3, Will lie urge at the coining Premiers'Conference that the Prime Minister speed upproduction of rifles and ammunition forunits of home defence in Western Aus-tralia?

The MINISTER FOR MINES replied:1, While I cannot subscribe to statementsregarding numbers generally the statementis correct. 2, As armament and militaryequipment is for security reasons a secret,very few people have accurate information asto the number or percentage of types ofequipment.

QUESTION-MINING.

Lake Cam pion Alunite Deposit.

Mr. TRIAT asked the Minister for Mines:1, When is the Lake Campion alunite depositexpected to start productiont 2, Is it theintention of the company to work the depositfor aluminium and potash, or for potashonly? 3, What is the title of the companywhich owns the leases at Lake Campion?

The MINISTER FOR MINES replied:1, Production is hoped to commence withfirst unit within six months. 2, It is intended

2914 [ASSEMBLY.]

to develop first the production of potash andit is hoped that residues will be utilised asa source of aluminium. 3, All leases areregistered in the name of H. B. Jackson.

QUESTION-AGICULTURE.

Sheep and Wool Adviser.

Mr. SEWARD asked the Minister forAgriculture: 1, Has an appointment beenmade to the position of Sheep and Wool Ad-visor to the Agricultural Department in placeof Mr. H. MlcCollum? 2, If not, what is thecause of the delay in making the appoint-ment? 3, If an appointment has been made,who has been appointed, find when will hetake up his dutiest

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURIEreplied: 1, Yes. 2, See 1. 3, Mr. W. L.Mecarry was appointed Sheep and WoolAdviser and commenced his duties on 23rdFebruary, 1942.

- QUESTION-BETTING.

As to Co-ordination in Putishment.

Hon. WV. D. JOHNSON asked the Minis-ter for Justice: 1, Whether there are anyexisting means by which the influence ofthe Fremantle Js.P. (Mlessrs. Farrell andGriffiths) could be attached for a period tothe Perth Magisterial District with the viewof bringing co-ordination in the punishmentinflicted on starting-price betting offendersin the mietropolitani police courts? 2, Shouldthey effect such co-ordination in the PerthPolice Court could they' visit Midland Junc-tion,? 3, Would a ptition signed by theknown Perth and suburban starting-pricebetting operators be of assistance in an effortto establish iiniformi justice in the inetropo-liton police courtst as applying to illegal bet-ting convictions? 4, Would the knowvn off-ciency: of the police force in identifying.starting-price betting operators be used toverify the genniaeness of the signatures tothe proposed petition as a guarantee thatit was truly representative? 5, If theme areno existing means open to him to direct uni-form convictions can he indicate to thisHouse a means hrv which it can assist indirecting uniform conviction and punishmentin all similar cases of offence throughout theState ?

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE replied:1, No. 2, See reply to 1. 3, No. 4, Seereply to 3. 5, Parliament prescribes penal-ties for offences against Statute law. Theimposition of penalties is thereafter a judi-cial matter and cannot be influenced ordirected by the Government or l'arliamentexcept by legislative action.

PRIVILEGE-PRESS REPORT.

Hoo. IV?. D. Johnson and the "1WestAustralian."

HON. W. D. JOHSON (Guildford-Midland) [11.6]: On a matter of privilege,I desire to draw attention to a questionasked by mec with respect to the inflictionof the punishment of imprisonment for ex-cessive drinking. That is a legalised prac-tice, as ipeople are allowved to drink to ex-cess by the law of the land. However, ifthey become a nuisance they are punished.I asked a pertinent, pointed and judiciallysound question: In view of the fact thatpolice courts inflict im~prisonmnt fordrunkenness, which is a legal offence in asense, why should not imprisonment be iii-flicted for illegal starting-price betting"Instead of giving the question and theanswer, the Press so condensed them as tomake them p~ointless and childish. [ suggestthat the Press be informed that if it cannotcorrectly report quiestions and answers, itshould not report them at all. I do not carewhether I get Press publicity at all; "Han-sard" is my record and that is w-hat I relyon . Nevertheless, when the Press does pub-lish such matter, it should not manke a manappear childish to the public, its the reportin question does. Therefore, on a questionof privilege, I suggest that either the wholematter be published or none at all.

MOTION-PRINTING MINISTERIALSTATEMENT.

Ajs to Sqtate's 1l't' Effort.

Debate resumed from the previous day onthe following motion by the Premir:-

That the Mlinisterial Statement be printed.

MR. NEEDHAM WPerth) [11.81;: Wewere treated yesterday to one of the finestspeeches that have heeni delivered in thisChamber for many a long (lay. I refer tothe speech delivered by the '.linister for

[15 APRIL, 1942.] 21

Land,-, who gave uts full information on anumber of extremely important subjectsaecting the welfare of thle people of thleState. I am sure that the miost exacting ofa very exacting Opposition could not butfeel satisfied with the field covered, thle in-formation given and the indication of apolicy being pursued by the departmentsover which the Mfinister presides. Ani equallyimportant speech was delivered by thle Min-ister for Industrial Development, who gaveus valuable information with regard to thevarious industries of the State.

My contribution to the dehate will nothe of long duration. I approach with a cer-tain amount of trepidation the matter ofcivil defence and A.R.P. activities. TheCivil Defence Council for long time wassubject to exceedingly severe criticism, agreat deal of which to my mindl was un-deserved. As a result of change in adminis-tration, the Civil Defence Council nowcomes under the aegis of the M.%ines Depart-ment; and the Under Secretary of that de-partment. Since then, a considerable changehas taken place. I shall not pit my layknowledge against that of professional mciirespecting the advice they have given tothe Civil Defence Council regarding nMnnyphases of this task, but I venture to assertthat there is a certain element of the far-cieal, about the brown-out.

Mr. Styants: It is a wash-ouit, not atbrown-out.

Mr. NEEI)HAM: Either there should liea complete black-out or brown-out, or noneat all. If either should be instituted, itouight to be enforced should the authoritiesdeem it necessary. If one tours the metro-politan area during a brown-out period, ouefinds that there is nothing consistent, andthe precautionary methods appear to berun under Rafferty rules. Either the brown-out should be abolished or its provisionmade complete. My own opinion is that itis not necessary. In the event of an attackfrom the air-I hope we shall not have thatexperience at all-an adequate alert signalshould be sounded at which time the mancontrolling the main switch at the PowerHouse should plunge the whole city in dark-ness. I approach this quest~on with a cer-tain amount of diffidence because, as I havealready indicated, I have no desire to pitmy lay opinion against that of professionalmen, but I think the method I suggest ofdealing with thle problem is in accordance

with connonsense. Existing conditions en-tail much danger to the life of citizens with-out thle system being in any way efficientfrom the standpoint of protection in theevent of an air raid.

W~\itlh regardi to the changing regulationsfor the dinmming of motor ear headlights, aspecial type of gadlget has to be placed onthe lamps so that only so certain volumeoof ]ight shall be thrown in one direction.I understand that many motor car ownershave had to pay ns much as 25s. for in-stalling the guards. Onl the other haind, Iknow of instances where motorists have beenable to provide all that is necessary for I..or is. 3d., which represents the cost of thematerial. If that is so, then something isradically wrong when motor ear owners canbe charged 25s. for complying with the re-gulations. That is a matter that the CivilDefence Council might well take into con-sideration to ensure thast exorbitant chargesare not imposed upon motorists.

With regard to the protect ion of shopfronts, I am in doubt as to whether or notthle business conumunity in tile metropolitanarea should have been put to the cost ofremoving thle glass anti storng it, replacingit with wood. T was in Mfelbourne a fewweeks ago and in no Jpart of that city didI see anything approaching what has beendone in Perth. I did not notice a shop win-dlow hoardedl up or one where the glass hadbeen removed. I understand the VictorianGovermnent has been awaiting the returnof the Agent-Generaol for that State, SirAlbert Bussan, who recently passed throughPerth. Sir Albert had been in London fora considerable period and was there duringthe blitz. When in Perth he expressedopinions entirely differentt from those thathave been voiced locally, lHe did not ex-press himself in favour of removing theglass from shop fronts unless people de-sired to do so for storage purposes duringthe wvar period, and said that with properprecautions the glass would not fly.

Evidently the Civil Defence Councilauthorities deem it necessary to take thep~recautions apparent in Perth. If that isthe position, I cannot understand why thecouncil has not developed some uniformsystem of affording protection from flyingglass. Different methods are to be seenthroughout the city and wire netting, wiremesh, three-ply, Stout timber and brickworkare resorted to. I was wondering why the

2915

[ASSEMBLY.]

professional advisers of the Civil DefenceCouncil have not set up a uniform methodof protection rather than allow these varioustypes. If the course I suggest bad beenadopted, a vast proportion of our man-power would hare been conserved, whereasit is now busily engaged in installing variousmethods of protecting shop fronts. Thatagain is a matter to which the Civil De-fence Council might give consideration.

There is also the question of the expenseincurred by business people in carrying outthe instructions of the Civil Defence Coun-ciL. I know instances in which owners havebeen involved in costs amounting to£6500 and more. It may be argued thatthe expenditure represents premiumspaid in respect of what amountsto a scheme of insurance. The exlpenditurewill impose a very severe strain up}oIn theresources of small traders, ninny of whomcannot afford the expense involved in takingthese precautions,. That brings my mindback to the attitude I adopted when theCivil Defence Emergency Powers Bill wasbefore this Chamber for consideration. Isecured an amendment, the object of whichwas to make the Commonwealth Governmentliable for the cost of civil defence. How-ever, it has not proved effective ill makingthe Common weal th Government assume thatresponsibility. I still contend that any stepstaken for the defence of this young nationof ours should he the responsibility of thecentral Government which should defray thecost entailed.

It is wrong to ask people of small meansto go to the expense of providing protectionfor themnselves. During- his ministerial state-ment the Premier indicated the amount ofnioney contributed by the CommonwealthGovernment towards the cost of civil de-fence, and stated that the money had to beaugmented by subsidies provided by theStates. I do not think the State Governmentshould he called upon to contribute anythingtowards the cost or defence measures, all1of which should be borne by the Common-wealth Glovernment.

-Mr. Abbott: lDo you think the workshould be broug-ht under the control of theCommonwealth Government?

Mr. NEEDIAM:- As a matter of fact,that phase is under the control of the Comn-mnonwealth government because the FederalM1inister for Home Security -is the author-ity in charge of that part of our defencework. The hon. member will see an in-

diecation of that in this morning's "WestAustralian," in which that Minister insistsupon certain things being done. In thematter of National Security Regulations,I assume that the Commonwealth is in con-trol, and I repeat that the full cost of theseprecautions should be borne by the Comn-monwealth Government. One pleasing fea-ture of civil defence that I regard as a stepin the right direction is the placing of theadministration of the regulations in thehands of the Police Department. I believethe task of enforcing the regulations wasa somewhat difficult and delicate one forA.R.P. -wardens.

The Minister for Mines: Hear, hear!Mr. NEEDHAM: I am glad that this

work has been handed over to the police.The Minister for Labour in the course of hisexcellent address yesterday, dealt with thequestion of food shortage and the positionof the farmers. Here again we are reapingwhat we have sown. For many years, ithas been our eustoni to import from theEastern States foodstuffs and commoditiesthat could and should have been raised inWestern Australia, and despite the mostlpers~istent aLnd consistent efforts of this Gov-ernment to encourage local industries, thetendency has prevailed amongst the ')coin-inanity to purchase goods manufactured inthe Eastern States rather than those mianu-factured in our own State. Because we. arcso dependent upon the, Eastern States, weare, as I have said, reaping what we havesown. I think the community should by nowhave been taught a very salutary lesson inthis matter. When peace returns I hope thepeople of this State will see to it that theymanufacture here goods such as have beenimported from the eastern side of the con-tinent.

I do not like to enter into a party politicalcontroversy in the course of my remarks,hut I cannot allow a statement made by theLeader of the Opposition yesterday to pa sSunchallenged. This is a time when partypolitical questions should be set on one sideand when everybody should do all in hispower to concentrate on the main task,namety the snccessful prosecution of thewvar. The Leader of the Opposition, in hisaddress, said that regulations should not beused to give effect to planks of Labourpolicy. T am quoting the words of the hon-member.

Hon. C. G. Lathamn: Yes, National Secur-ity Regulations should not be so used.

[15 Anmi, 1942.] 2917

Mr. NEEDHAM: The inference to be sort of thing is inescapable. When the eon-drawn from the hon. member's statement isthat the Labour policy would be prejudicialto the war effort. That statement and in-ference should not be allowed to pass un-challenged.

Hon. C. G. Latham: I will repeat it.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order!Mr. NEEDHAM: In these dlays we are not

living under legislation; we arc livingunder regulations.

Mr. Patrick: And boards.Mr. NEEDHAM: Day by day and hour

by hour regulations have to be issued underthe National Security Act and, while it is3imperative that we scrutinise those regula-tions lest they unnecessarily interfere withthe liberties of the people, we must not getinto our hleads ain idea that such regula-tions are immutable. They canl be disal-lowed, and as a matter of fact have beendisallowed during this wvar. The Common-wealth Parliament meets at stated periods.

Hon. C. G. Latham: We cannot disallowanly of those regulations.

Mr. NEEDHAM: No, but it is quitewithin the province of any member of theCommonwealth Legislature to move for thedisallowance of reguantions. Even if re-gulations do contain some portions of Lab-our policy4 it does not follow that they arewrong, so long as they are directed to-wards the furtherance of the war effort.If objection can be taken to any of them,the remedy lies in the hands of membersof the Commonwealth Parliament. TheLeader of the Opposition knows perfectlywell that the Federal Labour Party has not amnajority.

Hon. C. G. Lathamn: Only when theSpeaker and Chairman of Committees comeout of their p)ositions.

Mr. NEEDHAM: The holl. memberknows well that Labour is in a minority inthe Senate. He knows well that the LabourGovernment in the House of Representativeshas to depend upon the support of the twoTndependent members.

Hon. C. G. Latham: One of them is atpresent anl assistant to one of yourMinisters.

Mr. NEEDHAM1: And Opposition memn-hers are also acting as assistants to otherMinisters. It would probably be impossibleto frame any regulation that did not containa plank of the platform of some party. That

versation that is taking place across thefloor of the Chamber ceases, I will proceedwith my remarks.

Mr. SPEAKER: Order!

Mr. NEEflHAM: The workers of Austra-hia ale doing an excellent job in furtheranceof the wvar effort.

Hon. C. C. Latham: Most of them.

Mr. NEEDHAM: All of them.

Hon. C. G. Lathanm: What about thecoal strikers?

Mr. NEEDHAM: If a few men in NewSouth Wales are ceasing work, they con-stitute a vry small minority of the workersand trade unionists of the Commonwealth.

Hon. C. G. Latham: A very importantminority.

Mfr. SPEAKER : Order!I I ask the Leaderof the Opposition to refrain from interject-ing.

Mr. NEEDHAM: While I hold no brieffor any mail who ceases work in these troub-tonis times, I always like to hear the otherside of the question, because I realise thatthere mayv perhaps be provocative reasonsfor their action. I wish to impress upon theLeader of the Opposition the incontrovett-ible fact that 98 to go per cent. of the tradeunionists abd workers of the Commonwealtharc working wholeheartedly in furtheranceof the war effort. Not only are they doingall ordinary day's work, but right throughthey have worked, and are now working,extraordinary hours in the munition plants ofthis country-amazing wvork which could nothave been accomplished had it not been forthe loyalty of the Australian workers.And I want to tell the Leader of the Opposi-tion more than that. During the past twoyears the workers of the Commonwealth havewaived many of the conditions that it tookmany years to win. The history of tradeunionism in this country, as in other coun-tries, tells how the workers had to fight forany right or privilege they have obtained.The history of the present war shows thatt he workers have agreed to waive many ofthose rights and privileges in order that thenecessary implements of warfare niayleaveour factories. I defy any member of thisChamber, and particularly the Leader ofthe Opposition, nowv to make such deroga-tory statements a~s the hon. member madeyesterday.

Hall. C. G. Latham: Loud cheers!

2918 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. NEEDHAM: 'The hon. gentlemiawent onl to say, in another portion of hisspeech, that there were workers producingpeharvoal aind other things and claiming exor-Itant rates of pay, by which they exploitedthe community. Generalisations of that kindare not helpful. They represent a kind ofgeneral abuse sometimes indulged in by thehon. gentlemant. He did not state who werethe workers claiming exorbitant rates. Heeonfined his assertion to charcoal workers.Now, what arc the facts? There are peculiarconditions pertaining to charcoal burning-conditions quite different from titose obtain-ing in other occupationls.

Hon. C. G. Latham: You will get morepuibli-ity now.

Mr. NEEDHAM: The conditions of char-coal burning are so different from those con-nected witht other work that it is highly dif-ficult to fix proper rates of pay. The char-col burner must attend to fires during thenight, and tltere is considerable wear and tear,on his clothes. All that he is doing, or try-ing to do, is to secure a fair wage forhtis labour. I have here the claim of thefhaireotl butrners, or men working in thechareonl-hurnitig industry. If the ratesclaimed are described as exorbitant theremust be something strange in the men-tality of the person making -the state-ment. At the present tine no charcoalburner receives the basic wage. Even theLeader- of tite Opposition will adalit thatthe worker should receive at least the basicWage.

Hall. C. 0. Latham: No one said anythingabout mn not receiving the basic wage.

Mr. NEEDHAM: The hon. xnembci- as-spirted that charcoal burners were claimingexorbitant rates.

Hon. C. G. Lathami: Nothing of the sort.I will correct you tomorrow.

Mr. NEEDHAM: I read the report ofthe hon. mebe' speech in this morn-ittg's paper.

Hon. C. G. Latham: In this morning'spaper9 In that report there is nothing at allabout this.

Mr. NEEDHAM: I refer to a section ofthe report of the hon. member's speech ap-peirring in the morning paper. If he hasnot heen correctly reported, it is for Itinto see that hie is correctly repoirted. Thesewords appear in the report-

There were workers producing charcoalaind other things claiing exorbitant rates ofpay and exploiting the community.

Those are not my words; and if they arenot the words of the hou. member, yet theyare reported as such in this morning's"WAest Australian.'' Let me come to therates claimed by these workers, who, as Ihave already said, are not receiving thebasic wage. The rates claimed by themare:-Fallers 17s. fid., burners 15s., motortruck drivers the satie rates as obtain fortransport workers, horse drivers the samerates as obtain under the Publ!ic Works De-j)artlnclt award. Other workers in the(lalcoal-lburniitg industry are seekingamargin of INs. for special skill required inthe industry. These arc the rates beingclaimed byv charcoal] workers. If theleader of the Oppo~itioii is correctly re-ported, lie contends that the rates areexorbitant. The weekly rate for fallers is£5 5s., for burners £C4 l0s.-and £4 10s. 5d.is the basic wage. I contend that the Leaderof the Opposition when taking statementsof the nature to which I have referredshould lie sure of his facts.

Mr. rThor~n: Where ilid you get thosefigttres?

Mr. NEEDHAM: From the propersource, from which the holl. member canalso get them. There is alt ArbitrationCourt in this country. I thought the hon.member was aware of its existenice.

Mr. Thorn: Still you do not tell us wherethose figures came from.

fr. NEEDHAM: There is another mat-ter to which I desire to refer. Now thatrailway communication with eastern Aus-tralia. has been partly suspended, this Stateis practically isolated; and r fear it is likelyto renmin so for an indefinite period as re-gards railway cotmmunication. That factis causing a vast amount of inconvenienceand loss to nmnny people in Western Aus-tralia. We, of course, realise that we mustbow to the inevitable inl this matter. I sub-init, however, as a remedy whtat is suggest-ed by the member for Claremont (Mr.Northi) in today's notice paper, where he re-fers to the need for a unifortn gauge..

Afr. Northt: It has been my practice todo so.

Ifr. NEEDHAM: tUnifieation of gaugesis a wvar work which could well be under-taken by the Commonwealth in cotnnectingPort Pirie with Broken Hill on the 4ft. 8%in.gauge. The carrying-out of that work wouldnot take long, though it would requtire man-power. However, the manpower exerted

[15 APRIL, 1942.]

would 1e well worth while to the Common-Wealth as a war measure. If that connec-tion were made between Port Pinie andBroken Hill by 4ft. S1/zi. gauge, we wouldhave uniformity of gauge at least from Kal-goorlie to Sydney, and most of the icon-venience caused to this State by isolationwould be removed. The work would servethe purpose of defence and also benefit comn-niercial interests in Western Australia,

Mr. North: The work should have beendlone years ago.

Mi. NEEiDHAM: I agrece with the hon.member. This is not the first time I haveadvocated the proposal. We have beenitalking about uniformity of gauge in Aus-tralia ever since I camne to this country.

Member: And that is more than a coupleof yearm ago!

Mr. NEEDHAM: I venture to .,ayv thatthis work might well be profitably under-taken by the Commonwealth Governmentimmiediately. I suggest to the Prenier thatwhen hie is in Canberra next wveek attend-ing the conference of Premiers he put for-ward that suggestion and endeavour to getthe work started, with the results I havealready menttioned-results beneficial to theCommonwealth as a measure of defence andalso beneficial from. 1 coinnervial point ofview. On that aspect I m1ay say also thatif a 4ft. SY/2in. line were constructed be-tweeci those two points, one effect would heto bring into operation a vast quantity ofrolling stock now lyring idle in New 'SouthiWales because of thie break of gauge.

There are two important matters eni-gaging the attention of the CommonwealthGovernment today, and decisions on themwill have a far-reaching effect on WesternAustralia. The first of those matters isthe goldmining industry. The Western Aims-tralian Government has repeatedlyv made re-presentations to the Commonwealth Gov-ernment to declare its definite policy in re-gard to the industry, as to whether it shallcease, or whether it shall he continued evenon a smaller scale. Several organisationsin this State have made representations tothe Federal Government as well, but so fara definite policy has not been put up. Con-sequently, there is much anxiety in the pub-lic mind regarding the matter. I under-stand that the Minister for 'War Organsa-tion of Industry, Mr. Dedman, will arrivein Kalgoorlie oil Saturday next. Whetheror not he will be empowered by the Comn-

mniiwcealth Government to make a definitestntenwent of policy on this suibject I do ntotknow, but the sooner that declaration iimnade the better.

If, in order that the war effort may beprosecuted mnore vigorously, it is needfulthat the gold industry should cease, weshall of course have to accept that decision;,but go far as the war has gone, there hasbeen no need to atop the goidmining indu-s-try in either South Africa or Canada. Ithink it would he a very great pity indeedif our gold industry were closed down. Aslies been pointed out here several times, theeconomic reaction on this State of such astep would be most serious. Therefore Ihope that the Premier, when in Canherra,will be able to obtain sonic idea as to the-Commonwealth Government's intentions inregaird to the gold industry; and I also,hope the hon. gentleman will be informedthat the industry is to be permitted] to con-tinute.

The other vital matter I wish to mentionis uniform taxation. If uniform taxationis brought about and the gold industry isdlosed down, this State will be in a highlydifficult position. When thme war is ove-and no matter how long it lasts, it will andmnust finish with victory for the Allied sunsr-this State, like other British communities,must revert to its normal life and try toresume the even tenour of its way. But if'it is going to be crippled by thie closlingdown of the goldiiiining industry and theintroduction of uniform taxation the resultwould he disastrous. lniforn taxation wouldbring about unification without any advani-tage to thle State. Real, straight-out unifi-cation would bring sonic advantages to) thmerespective States, bitt a method of uinirtaxation, especially under our present Ituone-tary system, would be ruinous so far as thisState is concerned?

Hon. X. Keenan: Why?

Mr. -NJEEDHAMT: Perhaps the wore?ruinous is rather extremie, but it would cer-tainly be disadvantageous. I have not been:enamioured either of the Fadden or the Cur-tin proposals, andl I hope that the Preinieuwill lie able to bmring about a ehange.Finally I feel sare' that the State overn-mnent and this Pamrliamoent will joini with ther-est of Australia iii doing everything pos-sible towards bring-ing the warm to a vic-tor-ious conIclusion.

[ASSEMBLY.]

MR: BOYLE (Avon) [11.46]: This spe-cial session of Parliament has already abund-antly justified itself. Speaking as a privatemember I may say that it was only yester-day that I had the opportunity of listeningto addresses by the Minister for Lands aridthe Minister for Industrial Developmentwhich constituted the finest statements Ihave ever beard ini the House. I supposethey were particularly worthwhile hearingbecause they contained no injection of anyparty politics. They were sound strigho't-forward businesslike surveys of the two prin-cipal departments.

Mr. Doney: They can hardly believe theirears!1

Mr. BOYLE: Having said that much Igather that I am now free to offer a certainamount of criticism of thos e particular state-ments.

The Minister for Labour: I did not likeyour opening!

Mr. BOYLE: The calling together of Par-liauient has given uts art opportunity to putforward constructive Proposals to the Gov-ernment that otherwise, would 1)elike the flower born to blush un-seen. The statement of the M1inis-ter for Labour in regard to the potashdeposits at Lake C'ampion was particularlywelcome at this stage. I have been closel ,yconcerned with those developments, and donot think there ore many Jpeople in this;State who are aware of the wealth entailedin the development by the Government ofthose deposit-. Credit must be given to tiregentlemen mentioned1 by the Ministe-I re-fer to the Martin Bros.-wlro prospectedthese deposits, who laid out the mean., ofdeveloping, them and who are unfortunatelytoday the victims of circumstances. Theaction of the Government in taking overthe deposits, will be from a business point ofview amply repaid, hut I hope the Govern-ment will recognise the work done by thepioneers in that particular area. To readthe report by Mr. Norwood, who was theadvising engineer, makes. one's mouth water,and I am sure the Minister for Lands wvilllisten with envy to the wages set out bythat engineer. The amount per labourer isshown as 24s:. per day, and for a shift boss,40s. per day. On the other hand, farmerssurrounding the deposits are allowed by theMinister's department £7 per month- Thatis4 to say, each man is allowed that sumn forhimself and his wife.

The Minister for Lands: Your parallelsare co-tangents.

Mr. BOYLE: That is the difference inincome allotted to the man who will workon the alunite deposits and the man whoworks on a farm. The shif t boss will re-ceive 7s. per day more for his work thantire farmer -who is asked by theMinister and the Government-and rightlyso-gets per week to produce 30,000tons, of meat and vegetable pro-ducts this year, and who under the In-dustries Assistance Act is allowed £7 permonth, which he has to repay with 5 percent. interest.

M1r. Withers: And with no home to live in.Mr. BOYLE: I can see that the farmers

around the alunito deposits will now comeinto their own by abandoning their farmsand going to work on the deposits. TheMinister mentioned £2,000,000 as the valueof thle deposits,.

The Minister for Labour: The Ministerdid not say that at all.

Mr. BOYLE: Probably the Ministerdropped a nought. I think that was theposition; if not-

The Minister for Labour: I did not tryto estimate thle value at all.

Mr. BOYLE: Then I am more enterpris-ing than is the Minister because I intendto amplify the excellenit statement hoe madeyesterday. There are 1,750,000 tons ofpotash in sight in the deposits at present,or recoverable, according to the Fede-ral committee that sat. Mr. Norwoodestimiates the cost[ of produetion ofa tort of potash at £17 l7s. Gd. andthere will be a eonmnencement with theproduction of 130 tons a day- If we takethe amount of 1,750,000 tons of potash andput on a price of £17 17s. 6d. a tori we havetire huge sum of £30,000,000 likely to beexpended on the recovery of potash alone.

The Minister for Mines: It would pay forthre next wvar, would it not?

Mr. BOYLE: I am seeking to point outthat here is a hitherto undeveloped and un-known deposit within 32 miles of my maintown of Merredin, and I have been over itscores of times and in my ignorance thoughtit was an ordinary salt lake. Before thewar the Saps offered £C4 per ton for the min-eralised earth on board at Fremantle, andoffered to send ships for it. I commend theMinister for having stuck to his guns againstthe urnblushing opposition experienced

(15 AniaL, 1942.] 2021

from Canberra, an opposition revealedin the debates recorded in the Fed-eral "Hansard," opposition from a syn-dicate. I interjected, when the Minis-ter was speaking, that it was a world-wide syndicate controlling aluminium de-posits throughout the world. That syn-dicate made strenuous efforts to push usright off the map, as can he seen by any-one who eakres to read the debates. I wasastonished and disappointed that the Fede-ral Government was ready to spend£1,000,000 in developing bauxite depositsin New South Wales and, but for the visitof the Minister and his director to theEastern States, they would probably havegot away with it.

The Minister for Lands: Was the figureof £4 which you quoted just now for rawearth?

Mr. BOYLE: Yes; that is what the Japsoffered. The deposits at Lake Campionare not only rich in potash but also con-tamn 21 by-products, and it is said that theywill return many tons of sulphur alone.Normally we use 44,00 tons in WesternAustralian for making super and that isall recoverable fromn Campion. Thereis also the alumina basis for alu-minium, and it would not be under-stating the position to assert that thedeposits already in view have a potentialvalue of £50,000,000. 1 understand that 34Youanmi houses have been erected there.The member for '.%t. Magnet (Mr. Triat)may be interested to know that his effortshave not been in vain. The building of achemical town it' Western Australia is pos-sible, and I can assure the Minister thatany help I can give in consultation with,the Government will be gladly given.

We have to face in the railway systemof this State a problem that will be morepainfully evident every day. I say with-out hesitation that the action of the Goy-ernment in developing the munitions sideof thep Midland Junction workshops hashad its repercussions inasmuch as our loco-motives are in a shocking state of disre-pair.

Mr. Marshall: You have just awakened!Mr. BOYLE: I am surprised at the hon.

member saying that. He should remem-ber that last session I drew pointed at-tention to the matter. I saw the Ministerfor Railways making notes, but they musthave been counterfeit, because I have not

f102J

seen any of them used since. I drew attentionto the fact that there was being developedamongst Western Australian railway fire-men what is known as firemen's hernia.Owing to their loyalty and patriotism thesemen are continuing to work these enginesso as not to hold up the services of theState. The human element is being dis-regarded and I know of seven firemen, fiveof whom are affected with hernia. I amtold: that spare engine parts cannot be im-ported, but can be made. The men atthe Midland Junction workshops employedon munitions making could turn out spareparts for what is a part and parcel of ourwar effort.

The Msinister for Railways: They cannotmake them unless they have the material.

Mr. BOYLE: What material is wanted;the material would be steel, would it notl

M1r. Marshall: Yes, malleable steel.Mr. BOYLE: What else would be want-

ed ? At the local munitions works at Merre-din they are mnachining Bren gun carrierwheels. They are turning out 50 to 60a week from steel castings made at Hatfieldsfoundry at Bassendean. If the spare partscan be got for Bren carriers, they can be gotfor locomotives. I mentioned in this Housethe ease of an engine driver from Karralee,90 miles out of Merredin, who brought his en-gine from Karralce to Merredin after leaving5611). weight of driving wheel in the scrub.somewhere. His own union told him heshould not have done it. I wish to drawattention to this fact, because it is in-evitable that the whole system will breakdown if the tractive or haulage power isleft in the condition it is today. There isno occnsion for it. The Railway Depart-ment is taking a stupendous task upon itsshoulders, and without proper tools oftrade the men cannot carry out their job.There are 1,800 men from the departmentin the Forces and those left on the jobshould have the means of doing their workdecently.

The country water supplies today aregoing to represent a bigger problem thanever. We must face the position that afew well placed bombs along the GoldfieldsWater Supply line would disrupt the mainsupply to the goldfields and agriculturalareas. The Minister has been very good inacceding to the request made that damsshould be filled along the line. Today44,000,000 gallons of water have been

[ASSEMBLY.]

pumped into reservoirs between Meekeringand Southern Cross. It is this infernal redtape that is still entangling us. At Burra-coppin recently a meeting of farmers de-cided to form working hoes, clean out dams,and endeavour by every possible means toconserve water. They also asked inc to seethe department and secure a boring plantfor them. These men are out to do thiswork without any reward whatever. In ad-dition to managing their farms, they havedecided in their own interests as well asthbose of the nation to see that water is con-served, apart altogether from the GoldfieldIsWater Supply scheme.

I will quote from a letter I received fromthe Public Works Department, which tooka month to reach me. First of all we -skedfor a boring plant. In these timnes it tookthe department one month to tell us thatthere was a small unit at Corrigin that couldhe made available to these farmers at a9cost of £3 Ss. 7d. per month, plus freightwhich the association in question would haveto pay from Corrigin to Burracoppin. Lookat the ridiculous red tape involved in a trans-action of that kind! These men of whom Ispeak were giving up their own time, anadwere asking for a boring- plant to secure'voter for the ratilways. as well as for them-selves and other people. They were toldb ,y the department that a boring plant warAvailable at Corrigin at a cost of £3 Rs. 7d(.per month pl~us freight. I urged thepse mento tinsmire themselves against. -afeident ordeath, becauise there wvas no one el'te to takethe responsibility. The department reppliedthat so far as; its inquiries went the Workers'Compensation Act made no provision forvoluntary work, but that definite informationon the point could be obtained from the StateGovernment Insurance Office if so desired.

Tn any event, the communication wentn, the Water Supply Department could ac-cept no responsibility for workers who werenot under its, direction or control. ThIteseimen were doing the work without pay orreward. If their legs were blown off, ornuty other accident occurred to them, itwould hie just too bad. That is all the help)they would he ' ren by the department. WSeas ked that petrol should he made availabletbromwah the Liquid Fuel Board for farmerswho are uoine out to do this work.We were told that the matter would haveto be referred to the hoard in raiestion.Then we asked that permission should hegiven for the use of numbers of silos in the

district. We were told to refer that questionto the Bulk Hlandling Co-operative Company.These are the four points on which Vie de.partinent replied.

We hear many tales-these are becominglegendary--of the way in which the Ameri-cans are cutting through red tape. All Ihope is that in future the Under Secretariesof Government departments will be drawnfrom the American Army. That wouldbe 'advantageous to the country. I have re-ferred to farmers being asked by the M1in-ister to provide 30,000 tons of foodstuffs,meat, etc., this year. What are the farmersbeing offered for such supplies'? Under whatconditions are they to take on this additionalivorki As the Minister has admitted, theydo not know what crops to put in, or whatprice they are to get for the resultant corn-moditics. I know that at the munition worksin Mferredin trainees carry with them a letterstating the rate of wages they are to he paid,the hours they are to work per week andwhat overtinie rates can be drawn.

A man with only three wonths. training-may leave Perth for a munition job atMerredin, and he knows that his pay willbe £5 19is. l0d. a week for a 44-hour week.Wc are asked by the Government to pro-duce 6,500 tons extra of pig meat, 17,000tons; more of potatoes, and to produce somueh. beef. Who will produce all that stfTAre the. farmers going to work for 28s. 6d.per wveek, with no allowance for their wivesand 10s. a month for each child under 16years of age.) Is that to be the propositionin war time? One sees money thrown awaylike water in the defence expenditure. InAdelaide I met two painter labourers. whowvere reeiving LI per wreek each. Accord-ing to the letter members received from thePremier-and the -Minister for Lands im-plies the samec thing-re are askedto go to our electors and ask them 'toproduce all these foodstuffs tinder Agricul-tural Bank conditions;. At a meeting held inNorth-Est Tarumin a few days ago thefarmers declined] to do this:. There' wasnothinr unpatriotic or dishonest about theirrefusal. They want to knowv what they areto receive for their work. The Federal PriceFisinr Commissioner used the Sydney priceof £17 10s. for potatoes as the basis for thepriceP in Western Australia, which thereforewrorks out at about £12 per ton. If we geta afetondaryv manufactured article from Syd-ney. it i,4 the Sydney price which rules, plus

[15 APRIL, 1942.] 2923

freight to Western Australia. That is un-reasonable.

The Price Fixing Commissioner also fixedthe price for livestock on the March condi-tions. That was an extraordinary action forany Price Fixing Commissioner to take. Hefixed upon the lowest point of the seasonwhen artificial feeding must take place, anLarranged for a price that was wholly againstthe producer. We are an exporting State,and yet the authorities allow 2d. per lb. lessfor pig meat than is allowed in any otherState of the Commonwealth. The wholething bristles with anomalies and inequities.I regret that the Minister for Lands in hisexcellent survey of the position did not sur-vey the manpower as far as farmers areconcerned, and did not survey the deplorableconditions under which farmers are working.The exodus from the land is increasing. Ifthe farmers leave their properties who willprovide for this extra 30 per cent, of theState's population that we are called uponto look after? I know, of a farmer's son whowas working without wages, because he wasasked to work for nothing. The father hasbeen allowed £25 a year to supply the wagesfor the putting in of over 300 acres ofcrop, looking after a number of sheep, andcarrying on other work of that nature. Theboy said, "'I am not going to work for thatslim."

31r. Marshall: Why do they not get onto one of these Federal boards?

Mr. BOYLE: That reminds mue of John-son'sa report from Port Moresby. Hfe wasspeaking of natives getting into slit trenches,and described bow the latecomers pushed inbehind the early arrivals, and how the first-corners then got in behind the latecomersand so constituted a sort of perpetualmotion. I am afraid if there was going tobe an invitation to join one of these boardsthat is the sort of thing that would occur.The Minister has referred to wheat for thepig farmers.

Mr. Hughes: Why do not the farmersstrike and so rectify the matter?

'Mr. BOYLE: The member for East Perth(Mr. Hughes) has brought forward a pro-position that hag been debated by farmersfor years. I point out that our farmers areisolated. When it comes to dealing withfinancial institutions, they are cut off andcut up. Their isolation is spread over alength of 700 miles of wheat belt in thisState. and a width of 1.50 miles. I was the

head of an organisation in this State and,organise as we might, we could only enrolapproximately 50 per cent. of the wheat-growers of the State. No matter what orga-nisation was done in this connection, I doubtif there could be enough to carry out thehon. member's suggestion. At the MidlandJunction workshops there are approximately2,000 muil under one roof, easy oforganisation, but how many effortshave been made to organise farm,labour in Australia? Farmers suffer becauseof their isolation. Very foolishly the farmerlooks upon his farm as his property. Thatis a fundamental mistake. In the case of90 per cent, of our farmers the holdingswill never be their property.

Of 3,500 wheatgrowers in this State, theAssociated Banks have an aggregate of a£8,000 debt against them. In the case ofthe 6,700 farmers onl the Agricultural Bank,with the exception of those in the South-West, I suppose they would aggregate be-tween them something like a debt of £1,600or £2,000 per man, Of farmers in the wheatbelt, 90 per cent. arc working onl liens andadvances. According to the Federal WheatCommission, the industry owes £151,000,000,and its assets on a book debt v'alue are worth£136,000, showing a deficit of £C15,000,000on book assets and liabilities. The onlyway that farmners can give effect to the sug-gestion of the member for East Perth is bywalking off their holdings. Why should theynot walk off them when one realises that inthe Campion area very soon labour willprobably be engaged at 24s. per day perman? If a man is lucky enough to becomea shift boss, he will receive £2 a day. Thatbeing so, farmers arc not likely to work forthe miserable pittance now offered to them.

The Minister referred to wheat for pigsat 2s. 6d. a bushel at siding. The informa-tion in my possession indicates there is noshortage of faq. wheat in WesternAustralia, that the supply far exceeds thedemand. Until the demand catches up withthe supply I think the action of the Minis-tr for Lands is premature. If there were

a shortage of wheat for the industry, thatwtould be time enough to ask the AustralianWheat Board, which in that sense is theAustralian Government, to subsidise the pig-ra~iing and poultry-fanning industries. Themember for Canning (Mr. Cross) askedwhat was being done for the poultry farmers.Reference has been made to subsidisation.

2924 ASSEMBLY.]

If there is to be any subsidisation, let it bedlone by the Commonwealth on an above-board basis.

The Minister for Lands: What authorityhave you for saying there is such a largequantity of second-grade wheat available?

Mr. BOYLE: If I were to disclose thesource of my information, it would dry up.The Australian Wheat Board would doubt-less be able to supply the Minister with theinformation. I am informed that the sup-ply of f.a.q. wheat that is requiredby pig-raisers and poultry-f ariners isin excess of the demand. The truth of thatstatement can be ascertained. I am givinginformation that I obtained, and the Ministerhas the same channels of investigation thatI had. I object to an already stricken in-dustry being called upon to subsidise othersthat are rapidly becoming prosperous.

The Minister for Lands: I thought I madeit clear that nothing of that kind was sug-gested.

Mr. BOYLE: The Government owns thewheat and the Australian Wheat Board acts.as trnstee for the people of the Commoni-wealth. The overdraft is carried by the Corn-monwealtlh Government, and the ownershipof the wheat rests with that GovernmentThle Wheat Board is actually only a creatureof the Government, and if the Governmentwants; to subsidise the lot, it can do so.

Mr. Warner: The Government gets it for3s. and can sell it at is.

Mr. BOYLE: There is another aspect.The average farmer wvould be justified inselling his wheat at the fixed lprice, which isabout 3s. 10d. at ports, and in repurchasingit under this scheme at 2s. Gd. at his siding.That would be profitable business, It wouldbe the first time in his career that the farmerwould have an assured profitable price.He would sell his wheat to theCommonwealth Governmient at a fixedprice, and -would be justified in de-mianding, Ihe wheat back at 2s. 6d.at bushel, becaus e otherwise we shallhave a select circle of farmers who will beable to obtain cheap wheat, while the manwho produced it is using wheat which hecould sell for 3s. i10d. a bushel.

Yesterday the Mfinister said, in reply toan interjection, that there was no differencein the price of snperphosphate bought forcash or on credit, but that the supply wassubject to rationing. I do not know whetherthe letter I hold is the exception that proves

the rule. It-is a communication from Elder,Smith & Co., Ltd., to a friend of mine,whose brother wanted six tons of super-phosphate. He was advised that, subjectto rationing, he would receive five tons;but when it was learnt that he was payingcash, the company wrote as follows:-

Our Kellerberrin office has written us re-garding your order, and we would advise thaton the present basis of rationing you wouldbe entitled to five tens only this season. Weadvised your brother, however, to call on theofficer in charge of the rationing plan andtudeavour to obtain 'the quanitity you ore-quire, six toas, and hie has informed us thatthe rationing authority has aithlorised diefull quantity being railed. We are attachinghereto pro farina invoice for the six tons andwill be pleased to receive your remittance toeablle us to arrange for despatch.

Notwithstanding the rationing plan, we thussee that if a farmer can pay cash he will re-ceive full supplies. 'Money can do a lot,according to this letter. But take the poorunfortunate farmer who has not the readycash. I have another letter from a very de-serving farmer, who has been told that hissupply is cut down from 12 to seven tons.That unfortunate did not have the cash topay for it. He was informed-

If yeur requirements for that season(1940-41) were below normal, or if the quan-tity of superphosphate purchased was belowyour normal requirement-for instance, youmay have super on hand-you should applyto the Department of Agriculture for con-sideration of your case.

That letter is from the Agricultural Bankat Merredin.

I was pleased to hear the Minister s;ayyesterday that he had gone into thle matterof the Merredin Flour Mills and had hadthe assets valued with a view to the re-opening of the mill.

The Minister for Labour: It looks as ifMerredin is going to be put on the mapagain-mnuch more than on the map.

Mr. BOYLE: The Government has doneits best to put M1erredin off the map, butthe natural resilience of the town is suchthat it has put itself on the map again. TheMinister who interjected was responsiblefor refusing to accept £15,000 worth ofassets for an advance of £4,000, of which£2,000 was to be guaranteed by a substan-hial businessman. If Merredin comes onthe map again, I am afraid the Ministerfor Labour cannot be credited with havingput it there. When looking through the file

2924

[15 Ann1r, 1942.] 92

of papers which I got through the Minis-ter's courtesy, I was amazed to see that theadvance was turned down on. the report ofvirtually a clerk in the Treasury Depart-ment, Mr. Matbee, who is in charge of theBread Board, or some other board. Itwas on his report, and his argument thatthe small mills in Western Australiashould be wiped out, that the advance wasrefused.

The Minister for Labour: That is aboutone-tenth of the story.

.Mr. BOYLE: Yes, it is one-tenth of thestory. In the case of the potash trans-action, however, it was a 10 per cent. re-covery that made that possible. Now the(lovernment cannot open the mill at Merre-din fast enough. I knew these negotiationswere proceeding, although I was not in-formed of them. Private members are notinforined by the Governmwent of what isproceeding iii their districts; private mem-bers have become a cipher in this House.

Mr. Marshall: You have been a longtime waking up to that!

Mr. BOYLE: The inerniber for Murehi-son (M.%r. Marshall) has had longer experi-ene than 1. 1 get all the information Irequire fromt Kellerberrin and othercentres.

Mr. Berry: You can get it in St.fleorge's-terrace, without going to Merrc-din,

Mr. BOYLE: I do not frequent the Ter-race very muich. I go there only when Iam obliged.

Mr. Hughes: Who is looking after yourinvestments now?9

Mr- BOYLE: I long ago accepted the ad-vice of the mnember for East Perth.

The Minister for Labour: What part ofhis advice?

Mr. Warner: The other part.Mir. BOYLE: The fact remains that pri-

vate members on this side of the House are.no worse off in that respect than arc pri--vate members on the other sidle. It seemsthat we are not fit to be trusted even withinformation concerning our own districts.T learn from the Minister that a mill whichI have beent trying to re-open for fouryears is tiniv under pressure, to be re-opened. What is that pressure It is thepressure that I mentioned two years ago inthis Chamber. Because the war is close tous, because of threat of bombardment atCot tesloc and Freinantle, where 80pe r cent.

of our flour milling is done, t is necessaryto go inland and mill1 the wheat where it isgrown. Why close down a mill that hadassets worth £16,000? Why should theGovernment, through its Minister, refusean advance of £E4,000 under the IndustriesAssistance Act, when £2,000 of that aunmwould have been amply secured by a well-known, wealthy Kalgoorlie businessman,who had previously given a guarantee tothe Bank? He was prepared to give an-'other guarantee, yet on the advice of aTreasury official, the mill was put out ofoperation. Now the Minister informs theHouse that arrangements- arc being madeto re-open the mill, and I hope to good-'ness the mill plant has not been taken outof 3ferred in. That is my next concern.The mill was a decided asset and it pro-vided flour for the back. country.

If I can help the Government, notwith-standing all the lack of confidence that isdisplayed in private members, I shall doall in) my power, but I hiat is subject to acondition. I ami not going to the peoplewho returned mte to this Chamber and askthemn to grow munitions of war-for thatis w-hat it amounts to, beef, mnutton and'-wool Rye munitions of war-under sweat-ing- conditions. I will not ask men whohave to work the clock round to producefood] and commodities for which they willhe allowed by the Agricultural Bank £7 amonth for man and -wife and 10s. permonth for children under 16 years of age.That represents 2/41,/ per week for grow-ing children.

We know that today children arelargely carrying on our farins, and theyare doing so for 10,s. per month. I wouldnot speak in this strain were it not thatI realise that last year wve had one of thefinest seasons on record- The proceeds ofthe crops, however, are being taken by theAgricultural Banik to pay back the Fede-ral grant relief, in defiance of the con-ditions under which it was granted and indistinct breach of faith with the farmer,who was told that be would benefit bythose conditions. Representatives of agri-cultural districts are aware that the wholeof the proceeds of soetu crops are beingtaken fronm the farmer to extinguish biadebts. 'I have information on my deskshowing that one farmner has had money-taken from his crop proceeds to satisfy thedrought relief which hie received, in respect

2025 :

2926 [ASSEMBLY.]

of property that he had leased, while thebalance of £104 was applied against an old

.A.B. account. Then he was told that hecould not be carried on any further.

Mr. Berry: There are many like that.Mr. BOYLE: Are we justified in asking

those men to produce 30,000 tons of food-stuffs? For whomi Not for Australians,hut for our Allies, who are well able to payfor it. Thank (led, we have the soldiers ofour Allies here, but we know that the payof those men has been doubled by presi-dential decree. Recently, every fightingman of the United States baa had his paydgubled. But our unfortunate farmers,working in the interior lines, must he satis-fied with the same allowance that they re-ceived before the war, notwithstanding therise in foodstuffs a mid clothes.

I wrote to the Mfinister, as he no doubtwill remember, asking, that the allowanceshould be increased to £8 and I have hisletter in reply stating that lie could notagree. Subsequently, however, thc extra £1per month was allowed, and I understandthat £7 per month is the allowance now.My offer to the Government is, as I havesaid, conditional on these outback peoplereceiving a fair dteal. That is their dueif only from a humanitarian point of view.They are entitled to the same justice as ismieted out to the industrialists. What arefarmers but industialists? They are asmuch so as are the miners represented bythe member for 'Murchison (Mr. 'Marshall).The farmer works; with his hands.

Mr. Fox: They think they are indus-trialists.

Mr, BOYLE: They are, and poorly paidones, too.

Mr. Fox: Why do not they organise them-selvesI

Mr. BOYLE: I would inform the mem-her for South Fremantle (Mfr. Fox) thatthe reason why some of them do not joinorganisations is because they are afraid todo so. The samec arguments apply to themas applied to the workers in the old days.As far as the worker is concerned, I say"Good Luck" to him; his standard of livingshould not be lowered. But I have beentrying for the last 15 years to bring thefarmers up to something approaching theworkers' standard.

Mr. Berry: And you did not quarrel withthe industrialists.

Mr. BOYLE: No. I have never in thisHouse offered any criticism of an indus-trial award or of anything that the workershave got for themselves. No member canlay that charge at my door, I have, how-ever, fought-and fought vainly-with theLabour Government for better conditionsfor the farmer. There seems to exist anopinion that the farmers are in a classapart, that they arc helots and unworthy ofconsideration. If any member 'Wishes to seean ill-clad, worried looking man or womantoday, then let him pay a visit to the wheatbelt. I do not suppose there are manyfarmers in the wheat belt today who have hada new suit within the last three years. Oncewe allow men to lose their self-respect, theylose everything. Is there anything in in-dustrial awards that does not insist on areasonable standard of living for the workerand his family, that requires the workerand his family to be well fed and wellclothed, and his children provided with areasonable standard of education?

It took me two years before I could per-suade the Education Department to re-establish a little school in the Hines Hilldistrict, simply because there were not morethan 10 children in the locality. If menare engag-ed at a railway siding and theyhave to shift, the necessary provision ismade for them, but here the Education De-partmient would not permit a small schoolto remain open unless the infernal mini-mnum number of children required was avail-able, Railway workers had to be begged toremain in the district so that a census couldbe taken to include their families beforeanything could be dlone. I received a letterthis morning thanking nie for my effortsto have the school reopened. I think it wasa most pat hetic letter. Why should I bethanked for getting education facilities pro-vided for people in that district? Whyshould the Government shelter itself behindan archaic regulation? I know that Labourmnembers opposite have also been confrontedwith similar difficulties.

We hear talk of a new order! I do notwant any new order that will tend to con-tinue conditions of that description. Wewant at new order under which all will betreated equally. I certainly will not remainsilent in this House while inflictions of thetype I have indicated are perpetrated onthe People I represent, people who noware being asked by the Commonwealth and

2926

[15 APRIL, 1942.] 22

State Governments to produce foodstuffsfor the soldiers coming here from a wealthycountry. Anyone who keeps his eyes openmust realise the obvious, namely, that thesemnen, literally, have money to burn. Oneman came ashore after having been at seafor a few months; with £C103 in his pocketfor spending here. Notwithstanding that,the inoncy that is circulated in the wheatbelt today all goes into the coffers of theAssociated Banks or of the AgriculturalBank. I receive letters from people whotell me that they expected this year to haveso much but the Agricultural Bank hadtaken the lot, and they had been placed on11e £7 at month basis.

Mr. Withers: What would be the per-centage of whcatgrowers in that category?

Mr. BOYLE: It is not easy to say, butI do not want the hon. member's interjec-tion to he taken as suggesting that theproportion is smnall. I invite him to visitmy electorate as my guest or as the gestof the farmers themselves. The memberfor Bunhury (M1r. 'Withers) represents anidustrialised centre where men wvorkunder Arbitration Court arwards, and ifthey work on Sundays, for instance, theyare paid double time.

Arr. Withers: And a lot of them workfor farmers,

Mr. BOYLE: Yes, farmers -who are for-tunate in that their products are boomingtoday because of the abnormal demand.They are producing butter and cheese thatare urgently required, whereas unfortun-ately the wheat producer is told that hisiPominoditv is not wanted. It must not beforgotten that in the agricultural areasthere is about 60 per cent, of the sheep runin Western Australia. Their proceeds areimportant, just as are those of the wheat-growers, but I would not ask them, inview of existing circumstances, to go onl asthey are. All I ask for those ina is reason-able consideration and yet the Governmentdoes them au injury by practically demand-ing its-

The Minister for Lands: That is 11ami-buoyant and unfair.

Mr. BROYLE: It is not; it is certainlynot flambunyant, nor is it unfair.

The Minister for Lands: Of course itis

Mr. BOYLE: I am not saying anythingagainst the Minister, hut I defy him todisprove my assertion that not once during

.the course of his speech did he refer to thepeople who are to -produce the- foodstuffsrequired or about their reward for so doing.I do not recollect one reference to that aspect.I hope the conditions will. be improved forthese men. If they are not, I shall have noother recourse but to-advise them to protecttheir interests.

MR. BERRY (Irwin-Moore) (12.35]1: 1listened to the member for Avon (Mr.Boyle) with intense interest. He hasbrought forward a problem that both theBritish Government and our own Govern-ment must face. That problem is whether ornot we are to regard the farming communityas engaged in an essential occupation. Ifit decided that farmers are not engaged inail essential service, they should he tamnedoff their holdings and enlisted in the armedforces.

.Mr. Patrick: They are very much aliveto it in Great Britain.

Mr. BERRY: If anyone thinks the wvarcan be won by depressing the farmingcommunity, he ]ias another very big thinkcoining to hin. The member for Avon has,drawn attention to existing conditions andhas pointed out that if we have regard toordinary industrial organisations, men inthe trades affected are paid handsomelyfor whatever they do. Conversely, if theretis such a thing as an essential scrv ice. thatof produrcing food for our armed forcesshould he clissified and paid for as suchl, andyet for some reason the men engaged in thattask are not being, adequately paid. Thosemien aire suffering mental, moral, physicaland financial disabilities, and that has.been going- onl for a very long time.

Let me say emphatically that the sameprinciple applied in Malaya, Java and inIndia. Do I need to say anything further?If we continue to disregard the essentialpotentialities of the private producers, we.Is a State will reap -what I did in Malaya. Ilost everything at one blow. I lost everythingt had in Sinpagore through the stupid at-titude of a lot of drimhheads wvho knewnothing about their business. We hear alot about the action of the Federal Gov-ernm111ent respecting financial methods hav-ing reacted to the betterment of thefarmner's position; but that is not true.I have received a lctter from ina inay electorate on the subject of the treat-Ment they have received despite the Pre-

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mier's promise to me onl the floor of thisHouse that the producers would receive thesame consideration as the droughbt-strickenwheatgrowers.

These men have been told that their hayhas to remain in the stack until they areable to pay back the money they borrowedonl it. That savours raither of the ol(1idea of keeping a muail in goal untillie is able to pay his way out. Surely wecanl exercise sufficient imagination in thistime of stress to realise that these produc-en should be relieved completely of theiramount of indebtedness. I am certain thatif representations were made to the PimneMinister, Mr. Curtin would see that thatwas done. I ask the Minister to make thoserepresentations to him at the earliest pos-sible opportunity because I firmly believethe sympathies of the Federal Governmentwill be with the primary producers. AllFederal drought relief debts should be canl-celled and written off.

There is something much worse than theproposals of the Federal Government re-gar-ding drought relief money, or the action,of the Agricultural Bank regarding thleholding back of carry-oil funds. There issomething else going- on of which Ministersand members generally may know nothing.A few days ago a man in the Air Force cameto mue and left some correspondence withtie after we hadl bad a discussion aboutit. It would appear from the correspon-dence that reputable firms are'not actuallythemselves dunning- or bludgeoning soldiersfor the recovery of debts, but are acting insuchl a clever manner as to make some re-quest for payments to cover the amount ofthe indebtedness of the soldiers to thenr,through debt-colletors. As I say, the letteris clever and does not contain anly demandbecause the writer knows he cannot demandpayment. I shall not give the name of theairman but any membler interested may per-use the document. The letter says:-

We have anl account of £369 11s. 7d. tocollect against you on behalf of Dalgety andCo., Ltd.-

One would have imagined that a reput-able firm like Dalgetys would have knownbetter.

Assuming you ire not in a position to paythle amount in full, would you advise us whatiarrangements you can make towards payingoff the account by instalmeonts. We will thenisubmit your proposition to our clients fortheir acceptance or rejection.

That is signed by a luan named 'Moseley,a Inme which savours; of bulrushes.

The airmail to whom the letter wassenlt was bombed in Darwin. He has al-ready done his part in fighting for uts andthe firm in question, in making this demandupon the manl, has been actually hidinglbehind the protcction afforded by thatman's offered life. That is the sort ofthing that is going- onl. I have heard ofother instances as wrell. If that attitudeis to he adopted by firms and condoned byuts, canl we blamne men whlo will ay thatthey are not prepared to light when suIchhlideous actions are resorted to? Howcould wre blamie themn if they became dis-affected andl did not want to fighlt at all!Why should they fight for mioney-grabbersand interest-lovers!

I think it is a matter for congratulationthat Parliament has been called together.Whloever was responsible for that coursebeing adopted has my fullest approbation.In common withl the nmembelr for Avon(Wr. Boyle) many people have asked mewhat members of Parliament were sup-posed to he doing and were we ever to meetagain, and so onl. T am not certain thatmuch criticism, some of it rather abusive,did not accomipany' the comments. That lip-plied particularly to thlose who seem tothink that private muemblers are also mem-bers of the Government. Of course that isnot the position, and private members% arenot even in the confidence of Ministers. Iobject to having to secure mnost of my in-formation from the newspapers and fromthle man inl the street. That is quite wrong.

Reverting to the question of foodstuffs,I believe that all the people are preparedto accept restrictions and rationing. Theyare prepared to do so in the spirit that hasdominated the inner soni of the Empire, asit were. The people are prepared to acceptanything that they believe will be to the ad-vantage of the Empire as a whole and ne-cessary to the winning of the war. I find,however, that they are not disposed to agreethat £E1,500 a year and 30s. a day expensesshould be given to one man who was to becharged with the responsibility of makingthem accept tea restrictions. When therationing wats first mentioned, people I metlaughed about it. Mr. Speaker, the nationthat laughs at its difficulties, is the nationthat cannot be beaten.

[15 APRIL, 1942.1]92

Mr. Hughes: We aire beaten for our telkso far.

31r. BERRY': That is so. The people-were prriiaredl to have rationing imposedtJipo theill, hut when they heard of the tip-ltoiiiun of Mr. Bennett for the purposeAf controlling tea and rationing supplies

.a fabulous. salary, then they ceased tolaugh and their mood changed to sullengrowling-and rightly so. MKany members' thiq House would have undertaken that

Job~ willingly and at little expense to the(l'overunienit. If such happenings at this,juiwtuire are indicative of what the newOrdler is likely to be, then for Heaven'ssake do Blot nmention the newr order againbecause, if the new order is going to takethiat form, it will be worse, if possible, thanis the existing order.

The member for Perth (Mr. Needhamn)ini dealing with air raid precautions broughtup the moot point whether we should hanve atotal black-out, a brown-out or lights fullonl. This has been a controversial subjectall over the world ever since the war began.Like the member for Perth, I am not in akposition to dictate or even mildly criticisein a matter of this sort, but what I shouldlike to know is why I have to black-out myhome while not far away the lighthouseal Rottniest is flashing for everybodywithin 20 miles orT so to sce. Tt mnight hethat the exhibition of the light is required-Under the internatioiial law, but I maintainthat this is a matter of international comn-monsense. T amn hanged if it is common-sense to exhibit a notice on your house thatvon are within if you do not want peopleto know it. MIerchant service and naval menhave told cue that the Rottniest light wouldhelp the Japanese to find their way in. Cer-tainly thisi is nnu anomnaly that should berectified.

The Minister for Mines: I suggest youask the naval commandant about it.

'Mr. BERRY: I am not criticising theMinister on this score, but what I want toknow from him is why I should have todrive a ear with the lights blacked-out alongat road where horses are allowed to stray to[he danger of other users of the road, whileevery now and then the light from Rottuestillumines everything within its range. It is?qually ridiculous that so many lights-hould be displayed at the Fremantle Har-bour. It is all very well to say that theSTavy will not countenance a black-out there,

but if the Navy will not have a black-out, Iwould be justitied in saying that I agreewith the Navy and will not. bave-. black-outat my home. It is not a question of whois right or who is wrong;- it is a questionof which rule we shall adopt. It is of nouse doing a hit of each.

Surely we have had 6uffleient lessonsfrom other parts of the wrorld to show whatis the right, thing to do! To me it per-petuates the same old folly, probably thesa-me silly red tape that allows this sortof thing to continue to cu- national daii-ger. I ain told that *under inter-national law the light at Rottnest must be.shown. IMy reply is that in war-time thereis no international law. Under inter-national law, the mandatedl islaneas werenot to he fortified, but the Japanese forti-tied those under their jurisdiction and Ger-ninny bombed our phosphate supplies atNauru.

Mr. N 4eedham: International Raffertyrulles.

Mr. BERRY: Yes. Regarding the air-raid precautions, I congratulate the Min-ister on the amount of work that has beendone in the city and probably throughoutthe State during the last few weeks. Ishould like to see these precautions extend-ed to places farther afield. I have beenalong the coast recently and have foundthat while some people hlave blacked-outall their lights facing the sea, some havenot llseked-out any of their lights. Thereagain we have a strange anomaly. I canlgo to a lot of trouble to screen my lights,and the fellow a couple of doors down theroad is permitted to show a light on hisfront verandah. In fact, a senior memberof the military forces who had a. cottagedlown my way had a cluster of lights out-side his: house to work by and, while thesewere onl, I was quarreling with my peoplebecause a small strip of light could he seentit the edge of one of the windows. IfI here is. to be a black-out, let it be a properblack-out, but if it is going to be a half'and half affair, I am not going to bothermuch to black-out ray home.

The Minister for Mines: It is againstthe law not to do so.

Mr. BERRY: Surely the Minister is in aPosition to say whether certain placeBshould be blacked-out! The Civil DefenceCouncil has already announced that peoplemust black-out -their premises, and the

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chairman of the council who resigned re-cently said he was perfectly satisfied withwhat had been done at plates like Rocking-ham awl Safety Bay. If he wassatisfied, all I 'can, say is that hemnust have been blind. I am certainly notsatisfied with black-out conditions underwhich half the people observe the require-nments and half do not. I am not atis-lied to have the Rottocat lighthouse flash-ing and to have the Fremuantle Harbour atany rate semi-lighted while people just be-rand have to observe a black-out. It is notlogical or sensible.

When speaking yesterday the Ministerfor Lands said he did not want to mincematters, and he wvent on to state that hethought our position wax extremely seri-

ou.With that statement I fully agree. Itis of no use people saying, "It will nothappen to us. " It has already happened toone member of this House, myself, and tothe sons of several mnembers of anotherplace, and it will happen to each of usif we do not awoke to the fact that thefinest protection against aerial bombing isnot to stick one's head into the sand orjump into a slit trench or timber-linedtrench, but to build aeroplanes and drivethe bombers off. That was one of the les-sons learned in the 1.914-18 war. It wasthe experience at Dunkirk, Libya, Greece,Crete, Singapore., Java and Burma. Itbhaa been clearly demonstrated that thenation which controls the skies controls theearth.

As long as our air strength remains in-ferior to that of the enemny, so long willour Empire continue to be in danger. Wehave to build aeroplanes and keep onbuilding them. Nothing else matters.Whenever we read of a place being bomb-ed, we know that it can be overwhelmedby dive-bombers unless there is sufficientair force to drive them. off. Already ourairmen in New Guineat are demonstratingthe truth of this contention. There wehave aerial superiority and there we harehad our first snccess against the yellownation. T ami aware that the defence ofAustralia is not a responsibility of theState, but that does not prevent us fromexpressing our views as to what is neededand doing all we can to get it. Once wehave built up our air force, we can win thewar, but until that day comes we cannotwin. I consider that far better than bar-

ing air raid precautions and running awa,and hiding in holes would be to builmachines and go out and meet the enem,in the aggressive spirit characteristic oAustralians. Then we shall be able to beeany number of the yellow men. So faihowever, they have had us at their merc3

Recently a Jap flew over Broome so Joithat his machine almost touched the roofof the houses, and the people had to eringinto what shelters they could find becausthey had not the wherewithal to drive thplane up. England has demonstrated thaair raids can be beaten off by aggressive altacks. This is the most important fact thahas emerged from the present war, andis the one thing we as a community shoulgo for wholeheartedly and one hundred pecent. Aeroplanes today are more important than arc domestic squabbles, more important than any party political bickeringsome of which still creeps in. There is on]lone thing to aim at to-day and that is tbiwinning of the wvar. Already, as the Minislefor Lands pointed out yesterday, we bar,lost the most fertile lands of the world. Whave lost rubber to the extent of practical;100 per cent.; we have lost tin in an equsmeasure, and we arc losing oil as well. ThInation that can control the rubber, niand tin will control the meehanised forceof the world-

I congratulate the Minister for Landupon the able manner in which he dealwith the problem of evacuees. No onknows better than I the extent of that prob1cmn and the suddenness with which it haito be tackled. He has handled those peop)wvell, and r assure tbe Rouse that, with thexception of a few disgruntled ones1 'hiwould be disgruntled anywhere, the evacueearc very pleased with and appreciative owhat bus been done for them, The peoplof Western Australia came forward inremarkable manner and provided clothin?and even money, and did all they could fo-those people. There was one unfortunatincident, however, which I feel it my dut;to bring before the notice of the HouseThe secretary of the 'Malayan and Far Eastern Association wrote to the various firmand asked whether they could find employmeat for people from 'Malaya. From practically all the institutions a reply was received that they would do whatever the:could, and many of the evacuees were giveNemployment. A letter was received fron

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the Bank of New South Wales, over thesignature of the inspector, asking the secre-tary to call on him. She went, hoping forgreat things, but instead of that he told herthat the Mialsyans were a poor lot-drinakers,smokers, liars, idolators, and all sorts ofthings. Those were not his actual words butthat was the implication. He deliberatelygeot that woman over there to insult her andthose she represented. That is the only out-standing instance of inhospitality that Iknow of.

Sitting suspended from 1.0 to .2.15 p.m.

Mr. BERRY: Before lunch I was speak-in g about the unnecessarily inhospitable ac-tion of an inspector of the Bank of NewSouth W~ales. On that I need not dwellfurther. My next point is again a matterpossibly for the Commonwealth Parliamentrather than for this. However, it is ourduty to regard the war as a war belongingto all of us. We cannot really differentiatenow in our minds between State and Coin-monwealth on that subject. We must comeforward and mention anything that hap-pens, so long as the matter is not subversiveand does not involve silly criticism of Alliedwar effort. In that connection I1 wish tospeak of the State Inventions Board, orwhat purports to be such a board in West-ern Australia. About 11 months ago a youngman in Perth, a dental mechanic, wasbrought to me because he had a series ofinventions.

He was quite a curious type of boy, butone had only to speak to him to realisethat perhaps hidden behind his quietnesswere a fund of knowledge and a powerfulbrain. He told me that lie had in his officea model of a submarine wvhicb, he claimed,could he driven -under water by means of agas. I do not know what kind of gas, butI assunie it to be Diesel oil. He said thatthe submarine when driven by this gas wouldhave a surface speed of between 35 and 40miles an hour. Moreover, it had remark-able dliving capacity-I do not rememberthe claims. It must be admitted that ifanybody bad discovered a method of driv-inn' a submarine under -water by other thanthe present means of propulsion, the storagebattery, he had discovered something ofhigh military importance. It meant the dis-appearance of a sixth of the weight of asubmarine. It meant the saving of the space

in which to carry oxygen. Further it meantthat the submarine would not have to sur-face in order to re-charge, and, still further,that the range of such a submarine would bealmost unlimited.

Those are some of the things the boyclaimed for this particular inven-tion. I took him to the Military, andsomebody else took him to the Navy. Wefound that we did no good at all. We -weretold that what we claimed was impossible,that it could not be done. The Universityauthorities thought the submarine would notfloat-this after We haRd obtained the useof a swimming pool at the Perth Y.M.C.A.and actually floated the model. All thisoccurred about 11 months ago and we havebecome tired of trying and have gotthoroughly fed up. The thought became.engendered in our minds that it was no use-trying to interest people in winning the war,when they were not interested in winning

Now, a few days ago there appeared inour Press a London cablegram re-Porting that the Germans bad dis-covered a way to drive a submarineunder water by means of gas, andthat thereby the range of the submarinewas lproportionately increased. The cable-grain further stated that this discovery ex-plained the increased success of Germansubmarines on the Atlantic Ocean. Theclaim has been made that the Germans areclever, but we have just as good mechanicalbrains in our midst as the Germans have.But we have, in addition, the stupid depart-mental red tape which tics up everything.

This young man has a means of prevent-ing the bogging of motor cars in sand. Inhis office here in Perth he has a little modelear which I am sure he will be only toohappy to show to any member of this House.It is a bog-proof model. It cannot be hoggedin sand. We took up that motor car butonce again we found ourselves face to facewvith the stupid idea that nothing can be donein Western Australia and that everything-must go to Melbourne. Everything has to gobefore all sorts of people who are sufficiently-academic to he unpractical.

Mr. Needham: And apathetic,Mr. BERRY: My heart was broken over

the business until I got hold of Mr. Fernie.I told him all about this subject, and hieinterviewed the boy. Let me mention that

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these- tlhing, are' not secflst.. Mr. Fernie wasdeeply impressed, and in his: usual efficientmanner he is now trying to get somethingdone. Perhaps the Minister for Labourknows what I am talking about. We wantto get such people as Mr. Fernie interestedin that young fellow. The inventions I havealluded to are in addition to sug-gestioiis in the boy's mnind, and notthe oniy inventions, lie contemplates.Hfe has several others. They are allhe thinks about. Eventually ho was re-ferred to the University, also known as the"Nut Factory." It is a nott factory, becausenothing happens there-a "dead nutfactory.'' In this, little State of ourswe have a man who actually had inhis mind and at hiis, finger tips the veryflung, that ire are giving the Germans, Imnight say, praise for invenlting, something'this; boy had worked on 11 months ago. Allwve have to do is to take the young fellowaway fronm the dental mjechanic business heis at now and tr~y himu out. Ile is not askingfor anything. I am not as.king for' anything.I merely suggest that at very little cost in-deed this young mant could be taken over toMelbourne, iii spite of red tape, and put intoa factory and told to go ahead. Then, if heproves a failure, let him go back to hismechanical dentistry. Very little mioneyindeed will have been los;t; perhaps a merehundred.

The sort of experience I had while en-deavouring to assist the boy is somethingthat paralyses oOes intelligence. It is amiaz-ing that wve have a boy with such inventivebrains and yet cannot get himn to Melbourneunless someone comes along privately, putslip the money privately, and steals the boy'sinventions. This is not criticism. Indeed, Ihave not criticised I am requesting thePremnier to have the boy sent over to theauthorities in Melbourne. Send him, anddamn the red tape! Through our red tapeit was said that the Japanese would neverpenetrate to Australia! This young manmay have all the brans of an Edi-son. I do not think many peoplein Western Australia would denyhim intelligence after speaking withhim. I refer to technical men. Our ownMr. Fernie, for whom T have the highest-respect, says of the boy, that he hmm ananswer for everything he claims. Still wvecannot get that boy to Melbourne. Andhe has to be got there.

My. Needhanm. Did you try the CentraInventions Board?

Mr. BERRY: I tried everybody, I annow trying the Premier,

The Premier: This is the first I haviheard of it.

Mr. BERRY: I regret that. Howeverthe Premier is hearing about it now. Itrust that he will, for the sake of the nationget the matter taken up. We speak of thnAmerican people Cutting through red tapeWhen they see an objective they go straighito it. Here, if there is an objectivEand it happens to run through (lovernnienichannels, one cannot take a straight line billmust go here and go there and cvcrywhertelse. That is what is known as the redtape system. If I had not lost my rubbeiplantation, I would take the boy up andpay the cost. Let him be taken up by tlw,authorities, even if it should cost Z100. U16invention might win the war for us. Sub-marines crossing the Atlantic have becomean increased menace. The errors of mechan.ising which this boy may have made whileworking unaided here in Perth could be ad-justed by the co-operation of other tech-nicians.

We are not devoid of brains, but we aredevoid of coinmonsenise; and wvhen I say"we" I do not include myself. ]f one wvantsto run a busiess one puts aL man in chargeof it, and lie runs it. If a Government de-partment is needed, one puts an UnderSecretary in charge of it and nothing hap-pens. Let this mnatter be inquired into. Iamn sure the boy's ideas are correct, and manyother people are equally sure. I hope thatwhen the Premier is in Canberra he willascertain whether we can have ain in-ventions hoard over here that has somleanthority end some life. Probably there arehundreds and hundreds of people in theworld, not necessarily alt in Western Aus-tralia hut here proportionately, who haveintelligence and brains and experience, buthave not an academic degree from -a Uni-versity and no school tie, without which theyare wasting their time trying, so far as I cangather. I put it to the Premier.

Another point is the matter of equipment.I attended a meeting convened here duringrecess by the member for Swan (Mr. Samp-son), and made an appeal for more and mnoreequipment. Since then I have seen, withmighty satisfaction, a general increase inequipment coming along. I have seen allsorts. of batteries appear on the scene. That

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[15 AnaLr, 1942.] 23

has; been intensely pleasing. I think westill have a long way to go. If it werepossible- and I was told onl reliable auth-ority, namely at the Swaun Barracks, thatit is possibe-I would liko to see sufficientlystrong .repV~entations. made through thePrimne 'Minister to Washington for rifles,machine guns and sub-niachine guns for thepurpose of arming the civil population. Itis no use blathering any more about uni-forms and international law, and its observ-aince, because the manl in the flying machineover a, city observes no such law, and takesno notice of whether a person is in civilclothing or in uniformn. he shoots indis-criniinately. If we could only be equippedin some way with rifles, tomimy guns-whichI term sub-machine guns-and machine gunsin) anl adequate quantity, v I think the Westwvould be safe. To ask tile or any other manlto stand in front of marauding savages, fromnthe Far East with nothing but my bare handsis; a formi of murder, or anl inivitation tosuicide.

The Premier: You will not be asked to(10 that.

M r. 13ERRY: I hope not.Mr. 'Marshall: Lo~ts Of people have been.Mr. BERRY: Yes.Mr. 'Marshall: And been made to do it.Mr. BERRY: Do not let us talk any more

about money or the lack of it. Let usget on with thet busine~s apart fromnmnoney. Do not let us hare these finan-cit people persecuting any sectioni ofthe conununity-farmers or industrial-ist.s-by repressive methods, such asthose indicated in the letter I have read. Iregard that as the miost wicked letter everwritten, and was amazed to find that a firnlike Dalgety's could stoop to hire cheap debtcollectors and to persecute a mnan in the forcesin anl endeavour to grab a sum of money inrespect of his fanning operations, knowingfull well that when he has made an allot-nent not much more than half-a-crown aday is left to him. If wve were to increaseour equipment and manpower through theY.D.C. and decrease some of our financialgrabbings, and eliminate as much as pos-sible selfish reed and blind stupidity andthe worship of 3Mammon and the GoldenCalf; if we could get onl with the businessof winning this war and forget that every-thing we did had to be blessed with thedrooping flower of interest, we would havea chance of winning the war in the shortestpossible time. f doubt very much* whether

we shall win it unless we cean getdown to that basis. In the course of con-versation, it was suggested to me thatfarmers should strike for something betterthtan they have. At a time like the present,however, we cannot but deprecate strikes. Ido not think the farmers should strike, butI repeat; If the farmer is an essential ser-vice man, for the love of Heaven, makehim one, and let him be paid as much asthe essential service man who digs aluniteand makes potash or anything else in-dustrially. Then from the houses of thepeople in the country will disappearthis querulous attitude of theirs-andrightly querulous, because of poor circum-stances induced by our own blind stupidity.

I want to assure Ministers that my helpwill be available to them at any time theymay want it. I realise their responsibili-ties and their difficulties. I realise thatthe red tape about which I hlave beenspeaking has doubtless curtailed some oftheir activities. I wish them the best ofluck and hope that some of the things wehave suggested will make an impressionupon. them, and that our remarks will bearfruit. Finally, I would pay a tribute to thesoldiers; who have returned from the FarEast, to our soldiers who have undertakena big responsibility here, to oni- sailors, ofwhom we have sadly lost many, and to thehappy American soldiers. who have come toour assistance.

THE BUNISTER FOR MINES (Hon. A.H. Panton-jeederville) [2.35]: I havebeen rather interested to notice during this3debate that there seems to be an ever-growing idea that there is nothing for pri-vate members to do. Just why that ideahas arisen I do not know. I find there isquite a lot that anybody can do, even out-side his Parliamentary duties.

Mr. Doney:- So do we all, I think.The MINISTER FOR. MINES: I was

particularly interested in what the memt-her for Avon (Mr. Boyle) had to say aboutnever knowing what was going on in hisown electorate. I have heard that on morethan one occasion, and it has often puzzledme as to just what members expect froma Minister. Take my own Departments ofMines and Health, for instance, leavingaside for the moment the question of civildefence. There are a hundred and onethings that the Minister in Charge of thosedepartments has to do, day in and day out,

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but I suggest, with all due deference tomembers representing the goldfields, forexample, that there is a lot of private workgoing on in connection with applicationsfor leaseholds- and things of that kind, inwhich those memibers would not be especi-ally interested. It has frequently puzzledmne how a Minister is to knowr what thenminbers for the various districts would liketo hear concerning his activities. Since Ihave been Minister, there has been an open(10or, and if any member has wanted tcoknow something about the activities of mydepartment in his own or any other dis-trict, I have beeni available to supply theinformation. Just how a Minister is towork out who would be interested in onematter and who w9nld be interested in an-other, is difficult to understand.

The member who just resumed his seatsaid a good deal about red tape. I couldsay a lot about that. During the last fewweek., I have done my best to cut a con-siderable amount of red tape, but I havefound that by some method or other assoon as one succeeds in cutting the redtapie, someone else ties a knot at theother end. There is a certain amount ofdanger involved in cutting red tape. I havefallen into that pitfall once or twice dur-ing the last few weeks in trying to makea straight cut and get something done..When one endeavours to cut through redtape avid get something dlone that he be-lieves, should be done, the legal fraternity.steps in and says, ''You had no right to cutthe red tape,'' and one finds himself upagainst a brick wall.

Mr. Berry: Why not put them up againsta brick wall?

The 'MINISTER FOB MINES: Oh no!lTo cut red tape is not quite so simple aisit looks, probably because wre have woundourselves up with red tape over a greatmiany years. What has to be rememberedis that the man with the last say is theman in the court-the judge-with counselin front of him, and he will not have anycutting of red tape. There are certainthings that have to be done, and one hasto do themi, and they con only be dlonewith a vertain amount of red tape.

Mr. Boyle: They say that you and Ionce cut some red tape very successfully.

The MINISTER FOR MIlNES: Thatinay be so; I have often cut red tape my-self, but have not finished up with a legal

case. Owing to our system, it is not easyto cut through all this red tape that it isso easy to talk about cutting.

3'. Hughes: They do not know the dif-ference between a Glovernment departmentand a commercial enterprise, which are twodifferent things.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: Absolu-tely; there is no doubt about that.

Mr. Berry: One gets something done; theother does not!

The MINISTER FOR 'MIXES: A greatdeal has been said about members not be-ing taken into the confidence of Ministersin regard to the war effort. Every memberof this House knows as much about thewar effort as I do, because I have obtainedall the information in my possession fromthe Press, and every meniber is as gooda rleader as I am. Some of my colleagueshave undoubtedly secured secret informa-tion from the WVar Council that has notbeen given to other Ministers, but everymember kcnowvs jnst as much about whetherwre are winning the wvar, whether we aregoing to win it, how it is being fought,and whether we have sufficient equipment,as I do. If members of this House havea grouch about not being told everythingby Ministers, Ministers of this Governmenthave an equal if not a greater grouchabout not being told anything by the Fede-in] Covernment.

Take the position in regard to the gold-mining industry. I have been Minister forMines for nearly four years, yet the firstintimation I had of anything happening inthe goidiniuig industry was an intimationthat the member for Kalg-oorlie in theFederal House, Mr. Victor Johnson, badbeen sent here to interview certain people.

Mr. Patrick: Prior to that there was astatement in the Press.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: Yes. Iwill go back farther than that. In Decemberat the Loan Council mneeting, to which Iaccompanied the Premier, the question ofmanpower camie up, and, as the Premierstated, hie asked a certain question. Theanswer was not very satisfactory to me. Itlookedl as though there was some red tapeinvolved in that matter, so I asked a straight,blunt question. The Prime Minister, theFederal Treasurer and other Ministers werepresent. I asked whether the goldminingindustry was considered Msential to the win-ning of the war. He said, "Yes." I followed

(15 Ann1r, 1942.] 23

that uip by asking "In what priority does itstand in regard to manipower " He replied,"Right at the top." That was said to mein the presence of other Ministers and Iaccepted it. A little while after that therewas something in the Press on the subject.Senator Collings was alleged to have madea statement that the goidmining industry -wasnot of any value to the war effort. We gotinto touch with him and he denied havingmade the statement. The next thing wasthat M1r. Johnson was sent over here, un"-doubtedly to interview certain people. Ihave had no communication yet from theFederal Government or fromn Ur. Johnson.We all know what happened. Everybody wasupset and in arms, my own department par-ticlarly, because the goidmining industry isits baby. A lot of the offlicers have grownup with it. We were unable to get any in-formation at all and so the thing has goneon. Whei nmembhers speak of not having theconfidence of 'Ministers of this Government,they must remember that those Ministers,who are expected to administer importantdepartments in this State, have not the con-fidence of Federal Mlinisters.

As a matter of fact, so perturbed were wveahout the goldmining inidustry that, havingreceived some information about it oneevening at 5 o'clock, I appointed a commit-tee at q o'clock the next morningto go into the whole matter. Thad a ring from Canberra this amorningf romi the Minister for War Organi-sation of Industry (Mr. Dedman) tellingme. that he would be over here on SundayAnd would like to discuss the miining& positionwith in(- after discussing it with the Cham-ber of Mines at Kalgoorlic on Saturday.I alm leaving for Canberra tomorrow after-noon and the Premier is leaving on Friday,

sthe Minister has been told plainly thatwe will discuss the matter with him in Mel-bourne or Canberra. We have been orderedto Canberra and cannot wait for him. Hehas consequently' undertaken to discuss itin the Eastern States on the 24th or 25thof this month. While members may railhere about what Ministers of this Govern-ment have or have not done, they can restAssured that if we have not given informia-tin it is because we have not received theinformation ourselves. During the last fewwveeks most of the time T have been wrap-ped up, in civil defence and questions as-sociated with it. The experience has beena remarkable one.

During my lie I was under the impres-sion that I had some insight into humannature but the last few weeks have convincedme that I had a lot to learn about it, morethan I ever dreamt was possible. The ques-tion of civil defence is an interesting one,and it would do no harm if I briefly wentback over the origin and growth of the de-partment concerned. Most members recallthat when the Bill was introduced I saidthat in 1939 there was a conference of Pre-miers with the Prima Minister, who set outa line of demarcation concerning what wasdefence and what was civil defence. TheStates on that occasion, rightly or wrongly,undertook to look after the civil population.Shortly after that conference was held asmall committee was formed in thisState for the purpose of setting up anair-raid organisation. We obtained someinformation and somne encouragement,but it was not until 1940 that aBill 'vas introduced to give some legalstatus to civil defence.

The Council for Civil Defence was ap-pointed in January of last year. For quitea long time, even after the council wasformed, civil defence was looked upon assomething of a joke in this country. Iattended the exercises of enthusiastic war-dens at Cotteslee, Claremont and otherplaces., It was quite a common thing at suchexercises to hear people say, "it does nottake much to amuse some persons, does it?"That sort of thing went on for the bestpart of 12 months. We had not even aFederal Minister for Civil Defence. It wasnot until the first conference was called ofall the States that we insisted that a FederalMinister should be appointed so that weshould have someone to go to with our wor-ries and troubles.

Accordingly, Mr. Abbott was appointedthe first Minister for Civil Defence. He wagthe first Federal Minister who put any gingerinto A.R.P. work and while he wa,,there he did a good job. Not untila meeting was held in August, uinder thechairmanship of Mr. Abbott, was thequestion raised as to the mnoney that wouldbe granted by the Federal Government.After that conference an announcement wasinade by Mr. Abbott that the Federal Gov-ernmient had decided to appropriate £500,000for A.R.P. work, to be paid onl a pound forpound subsidy to the' States as required.That wvas not very satisfactory to me and

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others, for the money was required at alltimes.

After a lot of argument the Ministeragreed on behalf of the Government to makeavailable to us on a population basisa125,000 of the £500,000. On a populationbasis we did not obtain a great advantageout of that although it gave us a start. Ourcouncil which had been appointed had mean-while organised committees with a view tohaving some men and women trained inA.R.P. work, and then Japan struck! Thatdlid more to emphasise the needs of the Statein A.R.P. matters than did anything else,and very much encouraged the work of thosealready engaged in that avenue. Even afterJapan had struck, it was difficult to makepeople believe that the enemy was likely tocome in this direction. Not until Malayawas overrun, and a number of evacueesarrived icre, particularly women fromMalaya who had a lot to say about whatthey had been through, did the public realisethe importance of A.R.P. work, and then itwas wve began to hear of those things we hadleft undone or those things that had beenwrongly done.

Mr. Thorn: They are all experts.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: I willdeal with that point later. Up to the timewhen Japan struck the council had beenplanning for something that might ultimatelyhappen. Manny ])eople, myself included,wishfully thought nothing would ever hap-[ien. That was the feeling of nmost personsin Australia, but it did happen. That waswhen we had to put what plans we hadinto action. To do that meant at greatlyincreased administrative staff. All of themembers of the staff on the administrative.side, except a few senior hands, have gone.It was difficult to get a good administrative.staff. Notwithstanding red tape it is neces-sary to have men and women with some in-itiative and administrative ability to runreasonably well a department of this kind.We had assembled some 11 or 12 men andwomen who were without experience in ad-ministration or office work. Ujnfortunatelyit was not long before we were at sixes andqevens and the department was in a chaoticcondition. We then had to take hold ofthings, The Government decided to re-or-ganise the wvhole department and place itunder the direct control of a Minister, whichhad not been done before although I waschairman of the council.

We placed the whole department under theMines Dlepartment, which contains manyefficient officers at its head. In two or threeweeks the department was found to be con-ducted as efficiently as possible in the cir-

eumstances. If a person is dealing withthe Mines Departmuent or the Health Depart-ment, lie usually does so in connection withmatters affecting either mining or publichealth, In civil defence, however, hundredsof various matters crop up. The Minister,the Under Secretary, the Assistant UnderSecretary and other officers receive hundredsof inquiries of various kinds. Some of theseare legal questions. In many instanceswe have had to get in the Solicitor General,who has attended our executive and councilmeetings two or three times a week to keepus on the narrow track.

Many questions are full of legal tech-nicalities and although some of them mayrefer to Commonwealth matters, the com-munications have to be answered. If thedepartment neglects to answer every letterit is said that something is wrong with it.During the last few wveeks we have had ahectic time trying to place the departmentin reasonable working order. The fact thata snaill tommittee was itarted some 1months ago, that a council was formed withits plans, its committees and its organisa-tions, placed us in the happy position thatup) to the end of last month we had got to-gether 9,287 trained men and women, holdingtheir certificates and ready and efficient tocarry oU anything that they were calledupon to do. It is worth something to havean organisation comprising people who havebeen giving the whole of their time tobecoming trained in special ways so thatthey may be ready when the pinch comes.

Of the total we have 6,065 wardensmale mid female, 827 first-aid parties, 260mnembers of light rescue parties, 760 mes-sengers comprising mostly boy scoutsand others with bicycles, 305 other person-nel, 530 in the railways and 62 in the tram-ways, amongst whom are many first-classwardens, on the blood transfusion servicelist 73, first-aid post and hospital people292, exclusive of our present medical staffand nurses, Red Cross transport workers70, and medical transport workers 43. Thatmakes a total of 9,287 people who aretrained and ready for any claim that ismade upon them. Some criticism has beenlevelled in the Press and outside concern.

[15 APRIL, 1942.])93

ing continual alterations to our regulations.It will be agreed that just as the war altersfrom day to day so have we to alter regu-lations to meet the position from day today.

To a large extent there have not beenenough alterations to regulations, etc., onthe part of the people responsible for theconduct of the wax, for those people havebeen more or less sticking to the lines theyhave been taught somewhere else. 'Wewant more alterations and more regu-lations to meet the times. I pointout that the Commonwealth moneywas only available on a pound forpound basis in connection with what wastermed the first priorities. That has nowbeen extended to eight, and there have beentaken in two more priorities such a$ evacua-tion and sheltering. I will deal briefly withthe eight priorities. They are set out in theorder of preference as arranged by the Gov-ernment. The money is available for theeight priorities only in what is termed vitalor vulnerable area. The name has beenchanged from vulnerable to vital areas. TheCivil Defence Council or the Governmentof the States does not declare what is avulnerable area or a vital area; that is amatter for the military authorities. At theconference in August only two areas wereconsidered to be vital, namely Perth andFremantle.

Mr. Raphael: And Darwin!The MINISTER FOR 'MINES: I am

dealing only with Western Australia. I putin a good half hour on mny feet arguing infavour of Collie being brought in as a vitalarea.

Mr. F. C. L. Smith: And Kalgoorlie.The MINISTER FOR MINES: I do

not think that is a vital area even now. Iam talking about last August. It is diffi-cult to make people understand that if Colliewere smashed up we would have no electriclight, no transport, and no munitions, couldbe manufactured in places that were work-ing under electric power. The only satis-faction we got then *was that if we couldconvince the services here that Collie was avital area, and they would recommend it assuch, the Commonwealth would agree. Ittook a long while to convince the militaryauthorities here that Collie was a vital area.

Once Japan struck the authorities them-selves made the necessary alteration, anddeclared a strip of country 10 miles in from

the coast from Geraldton to Esperance tobe a vital area. I have been abused by roadboards, local governing authorities andothers on the score that this or that shouldbe declared a vital area. Every town inWestern Australia at the moment is a mostvulnerable point, hut in any ease I havenothing to do with declaring areas to bevital or otherwise. That is a mnatter solelyfor the military authorities. Vital areashave been declared only from the point ofview of the Federal grant coming into thematter. That had nothing to do with me andI fail to see why I should come in for abuseconcerning it. The first measure taken wasto control lighting, that being the brown-out and black-out.

Mr, Raphael: What about the wash-out?The ' UNISTEE FOR M INES:- I will en-

plain that, too. The military authoritieshave had many wash-outs.

Mr. Raphael: And so has the Govern-11ent.

The MINISTER FOR M3INES: And thehead warden at Victoria Park! A brown-out and a black-out are designated by themilitary authorities. I say quite candidlythat tbe Civil Defence Council is not get-ting anything like a fair deal, because inthe first instance the military authoritiesordered a brown-out. The next thing thathappened was that the G.0.C. requested ablack-out from Trigg Island-this was ex-tended somne timie later to North Beach-inland for three miles from the coast. Theunfortunate thing is that the General Offi-cers Commanding in this State come hereand leave so quickly that they learn noth-ing about the State.

That black-out was gazetted at the re-quest of thme Military Department, because,after all, we are laymen, and if the mili-tary authorities demand something they e-pect to get it. Had we failed to comply'with their requests, they probably wouldhave done it themselves. Two days after-wards, I received a letter, very secret andconfidential, through the Prime Ministerfrom the Naval Board stating that the'.Navy did not intend to put out the beacons.My friend, the member for Irwin-Moore(Mr. Berry) mnentioned the light at Rott-nest Island. That is one ot the first thingsthat struck me, and I discussed it with theNaval authorities and everyone else I could.The last discussion I had was with Corn-mnander Collins of "Sydney" fame. Every

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one of those naval men told me, "You arenot going to put out the light at Rottnest.Boats are coming here from all parts ofthe world and we do not know where theyare. They do not use wireless, because todo so would be ant invitation to the newGerman submarine to come along."

Mr. Berry: How many ships come in atnight?

The MINISTER FOR MINES: I do notknow, nor do I think the hon, memberknows; but if there were no light at Rolt-nest, probably not many boats would comein. I am merely stating the Navy's pointof view. The naval authorities also saidthat their job was to keep ships moving,and that ships could not be kept moving ifthey were not loaded and unloaded. That isthe reason why Fremantle is such a brilliantscene at night. On the one hand, the iili-tary authorities want a black-out; on theother hand, the naval authorities say, "Weare not going to have a black-out." Ourvisiting friends then come along. They havetaken over many buildings, one of which isin Fremantle, although I do not propose tomention its name. That building is bril-liantly lit uip, as you, Mr. Speaker, your-self know. A warden at Fremantle told methat he went along to our visiting friendsabout the matter.

Air. Berry: Why put people to the ex-pense of a black-out?

The MINISTER FOR MINES: The hion.member had better ask the 0.0.0. that ques-tion and not address it to me. I interjectedbut once during his speech, but he did nothear what I said, probably hecause he didnot think it worth while listening to. Ishall not return the compliment, but I sug-gest that he pernmit me to proceed with myspeech. As I was saying, one of the war-dens went to our visiting friends and askedwhy the lights were on. The sergeant whoopened the door said, "Well, what is all thetrouble?' The warden said, "It is againstthe law." The sergeant inquired, "Whatlaw?7" The warden said, "The law requiringbuildings to be blacked out in this country."The sergeant tho-n asked, "What for?" Thewarden replied, "So that the enemy may notsee any of these lights." The sergeant thensaid, "Little lad, we will comec along laterand find the enemy. Why not give him achance to fixhJ us?" These visitors arc a lawunto themselves.

Hon. K5 Ktenan: That is a good yarn.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: It is nota yarn, but absolute fact. I venture to saythat I could tako the hon. member in a earto half-a-dozen buildings occupied by ourvisitors -where the lights are showing atnight.

lion, N. Keenan: That is so.The MINISTER FPOR MINES: I could

tell a few more yarns abont our friends. Theposition is that there arc three ser-vices, but with no co-operation be-tween them. I asked the Premierto try to arrange a conference forthe purpose of getting these matters settled.Ever~y day I receive no fewer than half-a-dozen telephone calls from Cottesloc, Clare-mont and other centres in the black-out areainquiring, with some logic, why those dis-tricts should be blacked out.

Mr. Patrick: W1hat about the Common-wealth biildulgs?7

rrhe MINISTER FOR MINTS: Yes. Itis all v'ery well for people to say, we have'not a brown-out or a black-out. As far asI amn concerned, they can complain to thewhole world. The bro-OIout and black-outcan be (lone away- with tomorrow; that wouldnot make any difference to mie, but some-body else has a say in the matter as well a,;the Government. There is another aspect.about which probably the head] warden ofVictoria Park w;ill have something to say.

Mr. Patick: Do not wake himi up.Mr. Raphael: I can sleep with my eyes

open.The MINISTER FOR M1IN-ES: I am

referring to wardens, at places like MelvillePark, who make complaints about people notobserving the black-out and who say theyget no support f rom the Civ il Defence Coun -6ii. Before somebody can be prosecuted inthe Police Court, there must be at least acase against them. Out of 25 eases reportedto me, not one warden had sufficient infer-niation for a prosecution. Some had onlytaken the number on the gate. Others,whilst prepared to complain, did not wantto go into the witness box to prove theircase. They said, and I do not disagree withthem, "We have been living in the districtfor many years and why should we be forcedinto the position of prosecuting somebody wehave known all that time?" There are 6,000wardens, men and women, and it is not theirparticular duty to collect evidence for andconduct a prosecution. The proper personto undertake that duty is the Commissioner

2938

[15 APIUL, 1942.]

of Police or members of his staff, and theduty has been accordingly handed over tothe Police Department.

Mr. Raphael: Make it clear that the war-(lens have the right to go ahead.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: They cango ahead. I shall not worry, because I knowthe wardens wvill not take action. Theyhave not yet prosecuted one person, nordo I blame them for not doing so. Whyshould they get themselves into trouble in.the district where probably they have re-sided for many years? I asked the ChiefWarden, Professor Bayliss, "As ChiefWarden, would you be prepared to allowevery one of the 0,000 wardens to prosecutepeople, even if they were capable of con-ducting a prosecution?'' He replied,"No." Neither would I give those 6,000

the right to take action, as they have hadno training in that direction and some ofthem have but little discretion. Those arepoints that must be considered. There hasbeen a large increase in the number of spe-cial constables, so I hope the polite, whohave now taken tile matter over, will geton with the job. In regard to the con-trol, our commitments to date are £5,752and our estimated expenditure is anoher£ 500. I am giving these figures as I pro-ceed with my speech.

The next item, No. 2 of the priorityscheme, relates to fire-fighting equipment.Here we have some more red tape. Lastsession, as members are aware, the Minis-ter in charge of fire brigades brought downa Bill which was passed by this House. Itwent to another place, which, in its iris-doin, passed it with the addition that nopart of the fire brigade f unds was to bespent for war purposes. The Fire BrigadesBoard and the Chief Officer asked mc whatI was going to do about it. I was almosttold that if a fire occurred which had beenstarted by a bomb, the board would desireto know who was going to pay for the timeand wear and tear if it were put out bythe brigade. The -result of the amendmentwas effectively to tie the hands of theboard with red, white and blue tape. Thehoard was not able to purchase a penny-worth of fire-fighting equipment to combatfires started by enemy action. Conse-quently, the Government has had to facethe position and it has now arranged forthe training of 600 auxiliary firemen, -whomust he provided -with -uniforms Aa ail

necessary equipment. The Government 'scommitments up to date for fire fightingamiount to £91,195.

Everyone wvill agree that provision forfirst-aid and fire fighting are together thetwo most important sections of this work.We have had some complaints because notsufficient quantities of fire-fighting equip-ment are arriving in the State. Some ofit has to be brought from America and itis not arriving here as fast as we -wouldlike. The first-aid organisation includesmnedical equipment, and I shall be dealingwith that a little later. Our first-aid or-ganisation has grown. We have securedthe assistance of the British Medical As-sociation. As a matter of fact, we haveappointed the Ron. Dr. Gordon Hislop asSpecial Organiser of the medical section,and he is doing a. wonderful job in anhonorary capacity, because he is a memberof Parliament. I am not saying he wouldnot have undertaken the work had he notbeen a member of Parliament, hut he isdoing it in an honorary capacity.

If members want to hear more about redtape, let them talk to Dr. Cordon Rislop.He will tell them all abont it. Our com-mitments up to date for first-aid equip-mneat amount to £9,878; the estimated ex-lpenditure to the end of December is£E20,200. Here, again, we find ourselvesuip against diffiulties because of the enor-mous amount of first-aid equipment re-quired. It is all frozen. We can only getour share of it; obviously the needs of theMilitary, the Navy and the Air Force mustlie met, and we are getting the remainder.Fortunately, 'ye built up large stocks andare able to draw on them to some extent.The next item, No. 4 deals with the warn-ing system.

Mr. Raphael: It is not possible to hearthe siren.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: Let metell the hon. member that on three occa-sions. when the siren was sounded I touredthe suburban areas in a motor car and I amconvinced that the siren could be heard byanyone. I have as good hearing as anybodyelse. A lady wrote to me and said that shehad been at her machine sewing- and thewireless was going, and yet she could nothear the siren but bhad to go out in the yardbefore she could do so!1 There have beenstatements by many people that they couldnot hear, but if the member for Victoria

2040 ASSEMBLY.]

Park (Mr. Raphael) is interested I can tellbinm that a committee of engineers was ap-pointed to consider the warning system, andthe members of that body investigated everysystem in operationk iii Australia. They hadsamples of the sirens sent across and triedthem. out here. In the meantime they in-vented one for themselves and the sirennow installed locally is equal to anythingto be heard in thle Eastern States.

Mr. Tonkin: It is not as good is the onein M1elbourne.

M1r. Marshall: I do not know where thesiren is, but I have heard it at Redeliffe.

The MINISTER FOR M1INES: I do notthink the hon. member's bearing is anybetter than that of other people.

Mr. Needham: At any rate, our siren isnot as loud as the one in Melbourne.

The MILNISTER FOR MINES: That isvery interesting! At the first conference Iattended in M1elbourne an argument devel-oped between the (Commiissioner of Policein Victoria and the New South Wales Comn-inissioner, respecting the Melbourne systeni.It was decided that at 0.30 the followingmorning the Melbourne siren should besounded so that the delegates could hear it.The conference was held at Victoria Bar-racks in St. Kilda-road. I was outside thebuilding thle nest morning talking with Cap-tain Cyril IUngrnorc and others when Iheard a sound. I looked at my watch andnoting the time said, "That must be thesiren." Not one of the other delegates heardthe siren at all!

Ifr. Needham: What had they been do-rngY

The MINISTER FOR MINES: I donot know; I did not ask them. In myopinion there is not one siren operating inthe Eastern States that compares with thatinstalled here. The interesting part is thatthe siren was manufactured locally. At oneconference it was suggested that a sirenshould be imported from America at a costof £160. 1 told the delegates that if theywanted one I would provide it for £E10.Instead of the siren they wanted tosecure the blue prints. We went one betterand sent to each State a fnlly equippedsiren so that it could be tried out. I admitthat in a few of the outlying suburban dis-tricts some difficultv was experienced atfirst. The sirens are worked by means ofcompressed air and it was found that thevolume was not sufflciently strong. That

hias now~ been rectified. As for the siren it-self, none better is to be found in Austra-lia. The commitments onl account of sirensamiount to £E9,323 to date, and the estimatedtotal cost to the end of the year is £21,050.

Mr. Raphael:. When do you intend toinstat another at Victoria Park?

The MINISTER FOR M1INES: Thereis no such intention. The original idea wasthat the sirens should be operated throughthe Commissioner of Police and( his officials,who would receive a signal from the Navyonl the approach of hostile aircraft. Thesirens were to be installed at the variouspolice stations4. We discovered almost im-mediately that in a state of eimergency wewould require three men onl thle sirens andthree men on the wireless instruments. Thatwas not feasible and we have now installeddirect lines from Fremnantle to the GeneralPost Office, and thle scheme has been placdunder the control of Mr. Uipatrick. Thatmeans there will be a 24-hour service.

Mr. Raphael: With voluntary labour?Thle M1INISTER FOR MIN1ES: It may

he (lone with conscripted labour. I havepower under the regulations to deal withthat phase, but it will not lie necessary be-cause there are so many people whoare only too anxious to help in the wareffort. Tinder the nexv system as soon as theair raid warning sinlis received fromi theNavy at Fremantle, the pressing of a buttonat the G.P.O. will mean that the sirensthroughout tile metropolitan area will beoperating within tenl seconds. I think inein-bers will agree that that will lie quite satis-factory.

Mr. F. C. L. Smith: What if the planesarrive via Ravenasthorpe?

'Mr. Hughes: That will be contrary toregulations!

The M1INISTER FOR MINES: I thinkwe will receive adequate warning irrespec-tive of the direction from which they mlayarrive. However, that is the function of theNavy and it is not my job. No. 5 relates tothe instruction. to he given to key person-nel.

Our commitments total £3,639 and the esti-mated expenditure was. £2,600. No. 6 re-Jates to the instruction of the piublic. Thecommitments to date aggregate £542 and theestimated expenditure under that beadingwas set out at £500. The two latter itemsrefer to instruction by means of educationalpamphlets and so on. A large proportion of

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(15 APRIL, 1942.] 2941

the information at our disposal has beenforthcoming from the Federal Government.Those were the six priorities up to the timeof Japan entering the wvar. It was underthese headings that the Commonwealth Gov-ernment was prepared to provide money forthe State. Since then two other headingshave been added, namely, evacuation andshelters.

Dealing now with the question of evacua-tion, this represents one of the subjects eon-erning which I have been wvell grilled. Iwant to clear the air on this point as muchas I can and to state definitely that therenever has been to date any order from theMilitary Department for anything approach-ig a general evacuation. I do not know if

the member for Nedlands (Hon. N. Keenan)referred to me or to the Mlinister for IlonieSecurity (Mr. Lazzarini) when he talkedabout the Ministerial suggestion to peopleto "stay put." For my part I still advisethem to "stay put," because I do not knowof any better way to state the position.No general evacuation, of course, has takenplace, although there hats been some volun-tary evacuation. Many of those who adoptedthat conus are now drifting back to theirhomies. Some time ago the General OfficerCommanding in this State, in his wisdom,suddenly decided there was a possibility ofenemy landings in certain parts of the Fre-mantle district, anti he set apart certain por-tions to lbe known as target areas. I shallendeavour to state the difference between avulnerable area and a target area as I unl-derstand it. A vulnerable area isone where it is considered planestire most likely to visit, whereas atarget area is one where at landingis about to take place or has taken place.Consequently we have to train our guns ac-cordingly and naturally we do not want ourown people to be covered by the line of fire.The G.O.C. therefore declared three targetareas. He could not tell us how long we hadfor the development of a plan to evacuatepeople from the areas affected at Fremantle.

That was on a Friday and on the follow-ing Tuesday-I have good reason for re-membering the days-we were informed thatthe plan for evacuation had to he ready with-in one week. In the area affected there wverethe Old Woe~ Home, the Fremantle Hos-pital and the Fremantle GaOl. As Ministerfor Health I am responsible for the well-being of the old women. Of the 68 femalesin the Old Women's Home, not one was

capable of looking af ter herself. Ihad to make up my mind where Iwas to shift the 68 old women andtheir ten attendants, even though it might in-volve sonic inconvenience, or whether Iwould run a risk for a fewv weeks and takemy time about getting the Old People pro-vided for more comfortably. I was not pre-pared to take any risk in the matter, and soI established the old folks at'Woodhridge.

Mr. Thorn: They are now my neighbours.The MINISTER FOR MINES: And the

lion. mnember has as neighbours sonme. goodold pioneers wvho have been able in the pastto take their gruel. Woodbridge was theonly place I could find at the time, and Iadmit that the conditions were somewhatchaotic during the first few days. lDuringthat period sonic may have wondered whatI was up to, but I make no apology nordo I offer any' excuse for what was done.Almost without exception, women's organi-s ations in this State grilled me day after day.In reply to the latest letter I received,very belatedly, I told the secretary of theorg-anisation that notwithstanding all theadverse criticism from women's institu-tions, 1 had looked in vain for any adviceor help with a view to overcoming the diffi-culty. All the women were prepared tocriticise hut they could offer no construc-tive suggestion. I used to visit Wood-bridge daily, sometimes twice a day, andstrange to say the only people who werenot worried about the position were the oldwomen themselves. One member of thisChamber wrote me a letter and said thattime would show whether I should havebeen in such a hurry to clear the oldwomen out, Of course, it is very easy tomake such a statenient and to adopt anattitude like that.

.Mr. Sampson: At any rate that point ofview wvas not unanimous.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: No, thehon. member wrote a letter to me convey-ing his congratulations, and he was one ofthe very few who did so. The militaryauthorities advised that action was neces-sary. I am certain that if the GeneralOfficer Commanding had told me that it wasnecessary to remove the old women and Ihind neglected to do so with the result thatbombs fell in Fremnantle where the oldfolk were still located, every woman's or-ganisation without exception would havecriticised me most adversely and, in fact,they would have been justified in tearing

2942 [ASSEMBLY.]

tue limb from limb for hesitating to takethe necessary action. Therefore in doingwhat I did I accept the full responsibilityand offer neither apology nor excuse. Iclaim that the old women are now in agood spot, and they have no complaint tomake regarding my precipitate action. Intime I hope that the home will become oneof which the old women as well as I my-self will he proud, and further thatthe State itself will be proud of it.It has cost money and will cost more, butwe are doing the job. I was under no delu-sion as to what could happen. The oldwomen have gone, the gaol has gone andthe Fremantle Hospital is being evacuatedas fast as possible.

Mr. Thorn: Have you shifted the gaol?The MINISTER FOR MINES: Well, we

have shifted the inmates. We have not thecost transferred as yet, because the work hasbeen done by the Works Department, butthe commitments to date amount to £30,157,and the estimated expenditure is £C10,000.The difference between the estimates forshelters and the other estimates is that theformer are up to the end of the month. Thatwas the agreement with the local governingbodies. They are to carry on till the end ofApril, after which the position will be re-viewed.

Regarding shelters, another extraordinaryposition has cropped up. We called inWorks Department officials, including Mr.])amns, to give us advice. The Architects'Association and Eniees Association,through the City Council, asked for repre-sentation on a committee. They argued-andwe agreed with the contention-that thereshould be a committee representative of theWorks Department, the architects and ti-cengineers. In addition, the City Council re-quested us to include, the City Building Suir-veyor, 'Mr. Green.

31r. Fox: A good muau.The MINISTER FOR MINES: They are

all good men. They set to work and designedshelters. T confess that I am a bit scared ofsome of the shelters and Slit trenches, butthe members of the committee decided onthe slit trenches and the surface trenches.Vowr they are getting all the criticism, in-stead of myself, and it is coming not fromlaymen but from members of their own pro-fessions. Though the Perth City Councilscarified me a few weeks ago, that body isnow taking umbrage at the criticism of its

shelters and of the committee. It mattersnot who are given a job to do, or bow cap-able the men might be, or how high in theirprofession they might stand, there is alwayssomeone who knows better how the workshould be done. I am not going to saywhether I consider the trenches good, bad orindifferent, but any one of them will do mein order to get out of the way if the littlebrown men start to drop bombs.

General expenses include items for demoli-tion;, road repairs, burials and other itemswhich we cannot estimate at present becauseso far, thank goodness, we have had no demo-litions or roads to repair on account ofbombs. These matters must remain in abey-ance for the time being. We have made anestimate which is not in the priorities, andI hope none of the money will ever be used,and that is provision for the disposal of the(lead. It is of little use planning everythingelse to deal with damage and casualties ifwe do not make provision for fatalities.Disposal ofthe dead is estimated to cost£8,200. This amount includes provision forfive temp~orary morgues, wages for staffingthe premises and for coffins and canvas con-tainers. Cemetery fees and burial expensesfor unclaimed bodies have not been estimatedas they would at present be mere guesswork.This expenditure has brought the total to£150,528, while the estimated expenditure tothe end of this year is £73,490. Memberswill appreciate that the estimates generallyare not anything like accurate because theymight have to be increased considerably; onthe other hand, we might not have to spendsome of the money. Some of the estimatesdepend up~on whether we get a raid and howSerious the raid is.

Mr. Raphael: Cannot you give any ideafrom the Broomue casualties?

The MINISTER FOR MINES: The Sapswent into Broome, blew tip an aerodromeand concentrated on some speed planes inthe wrater. They dropped tons of bombs.Suppose they raided Fremantle, which wouldprobably be one of the first places downhere to be raided. Something like 1,000 or1,500 men are engaged on the wharf. Thusfor every person in Broome, there would bemany more endangered in the Fremantlearea.

During the last few weeks, owing to thedemands of people in the country--countryroad boards, members of Parliament, etc.-ire have decided to extend the organi-

[15 AaiL, 19.42.] 24

sation throughout the State. I may beasked why we did not do that fromthe jump. I was not prepared to do it atthe outset, and I do not think the organisa-tion would have been extended to the coun-try now if the enemy had not struck in theNorth. In an organisation like this one,we have to learn by our mistakes. It wasas well to get the organisation running assmoothly as possible in the metropolitanarea first of all, and then gradually extendit. That is what is being done. I want mem-bers to be under no delusions about this.There has been ito expenditure by the Corn-monwealth in areas other than those whichhave been declared by the military authori-ties as vital weas.

Mir. Mann: There will be compensation?

The MITNISTER FOR MINES: Thewardens who have been enrolled have passedtheir examinations and been attested willcome under the repatriation scheme.

Mir. McDonald: Can you give us any in-formation as to -the billeting of soldiers.

The MINISTER FOR MINES: We havenothing to do with that. We have dealtwith the target areas I have mentioned, andthe military authorities have undertaken notto overlap our work. I feel sure that thecountry districts will do a good job inorganising- the work there. There is scopefor them to do a great deal of work. If itcame to a matter of evacuating a large num-her of people, the country districts wouldhave to he called upon to assist. I intendto deal presently with the evacuation ofpeople in large numbers in order to showwhat is involved.

Quite a lot of matters have been put upto the council. For instance, it was sug-gested, and logically I think, that a trains-fer of stock should be made from vulnerableareas in the South-West, say between Bus-selton and Bunibury, where an invasionmight possibly occur, to other parts of theState. I felt that there were only two or-ganisations that could give me satisfactoryinformation on the subject and so we wroteto the Pastoral ists' Association and the Pri-mary Producers' Association. Those bodieswent into the matter separately and pointedout the impracticability of transferringstock on account of the need of feed andwater, and suggested that the best thing tobe done would he to move the prize stock

and run it in the Murchison district. Peopleoften ask why we do not do this and thathut we refrain from publishing to the workall that we are doing.

During my association with the Civil De.fence Council we have been under souutdisability through there having been louidifferent G.O.Ca. in fairly quick successionWe had General Durrant, then Genera:Jackson, then General Plant, and now w*have 1Lieut.-General Gordon Bennett, Thethree former were all fine in to work with:they were courteous and they did all the3could to help, but the trouble is that all olthem had different ideas, We become aceus.tomed to one man's ideas and then anotheisucceeds him, and he wants something elseSo we have experienced difficulty on thalaccount, I have not yet met General CordernBennett' I have to do so in the near future,It has been unfortunate that we should havehad four different G.O.Cs. in a very shorispace of time. There has really been nacontinuity of policy on that account.

I have dealt with the matter of wardensaud the matter of handing the administra-tion of civil defence to the Police Depart-ment, which I hope will prove beneficial.I should like to read a few extracts regard-ing the evacuation of target areas in orderto give some idea of the extraordinaryamount of work necessary to shift a largenumber of people, perhaps at 24 hours'notice. Fortunately we have a very finecommittee, the members of which threw'themselves who]leheartedly in to the work.The committee consists of Mrs. Leslie Craig(President Country Women's Association),Mrs. 1. M. Kent (President Labour Women),Mrs. J. L. Me~inlay (President R.S.L.Women's Auxiliaries), Mrs. D. Irwin(Chairman Citizens' Committee), Hon. T.H. Bath (Transport), Councillor H1. Boasand W. W. Abbett (Local Government), 0.Watson (Railway Depar-tient), J. H. L.Wilson (Wardens' Organisation), MurrayLittle (Director of Education), Dr. D. S.MacKenzie (British MAedical Association)and F. J. Huelin, Chief Evacuation Officer,who will devote all his time to this work. Tpropose' to read extracts front a rel)ort thathas been sent to me--I have not had timeto memorise it-as follows:

The first wvork of the commnittee was to planfor the evacuation of certain so-called targetareas. These have since been declared so thatthey are knowa to be certain smnall areas on

2943

044[ASSEM1BLY.]

the seaward side of the metropolitan area, eon-tiguous to possible enemy targets. The popu-lation comprises nearly 10,000 people.

It might here be stressed that the decisionof the War Council, announced after the lastconference of the Prime -Minister with thePremiers, was that, speaking generally, thepublic was to "stay put"; there was to heno question of mass evacuation, and the peoplefrom the so-called target areas would simplybe evacuated to other portions of the nmetropo-litan district.

Evacuation of certain Target Areas.*I am pleased to be able to report that we

are in a position to present, for the endorse-mnent of the Council, the evacuation plan inrespect to the three areas designated by theMilitary on the seaward side of the metropo-litan area.

I am sorry that it has taken several weeksto reachs this stage, but ia undertakinig thisjob the committee and myself had to virtuaillystart with no previous preparation. The Hrouse-holders' Questionnaire, which was sometimestailed an "Evacuation Questionnaire,'' was oflittle use really, It gave us the personnel ofeach household, and there was at column inwhich invalidity was marked. The same ques-tionnaire, however, was utilised throughout themetropolitan area, and a further question asto the number of spare beds in each house-hold had to be answered-. apparently a con-siderable proportion of householders took thisto mean that they 'would be willing to offertemporary accommodation for a few nights toaeighbours who may be bombed out of theirhomes and their answer to the question didnot mean that they would be willing to takein evacuees for weeks at a time.

Stage 1.-The first stage was to obtain comi-plete particulars of the inhabitants of the areasc-oncerned. The A.R.P. iniformation available andthe attitude of the major local authorities eon,corned b)y no means contributed to an efficientjob. Some 3,000 households and other pre-mises were concerned, involving 9,891 people,but these totals were only obtained after re-vising our figures more than once, particularlythe Fremnantle figures, and having to Make pro-vision for additional groups of people who hadearlier been omnitted by the' local authorities.The population concerned is split up asfollows:AreaA. Foreigners -, . . 742

Essential serviee employ-ces and their families 820

All others - - I.. . - 5,541 6,903

B. Essential service employ-ees and their families .- 825

All others . .. -. 1,656 2,481

C. Essential service employ-ees and their families . 67

All others . .- .. 440 507

9,891

In addition to tlie consaiderable number ofpeople involved, which alone made the evacua-tion scheme a big job in a relatively small com-unity, there w-ere several awkward prob-

lenis:Invalids,-Froai the questionnaires, out of

the above number of 9,891 people, no less than.554 were indicated as invalids. As it was im-possible to think of billeting invalids in thenor1mal way it becamie liecessiy to investigateevery case: nurses onl the departmrnial staffand those attached to the 'Silver Chaml orgaiii-cation assisted, aind each one of the 5JU4 caseswvas seen by at nurse. The result of this comb-ing out process was that conqiderabl numberswere found net to be invalids iii the propersense at all; a great majority of the remainderwere able to look after themnselves, and mostof the residue, some 30 ces, were speciallydealt with by persulading them to more ouitof the area at once: ia certain vnacs ie pro-vided transportation for thenm. We liave nowleft oil our hanlds only six real invalids, illrespect of whon special armanitmeats arbeen made so th at, if necessary, they can lbemoved to convalescent homes or instiftutionis ntvery short notice.

Foreigner.-It will be noted that 742 per-sonts appear under this hleading. The elassidl-cation hans been made purely on the namnes, sothat it may well be faulity. Snic foreignersmay have been mnissed; a few other people Mayhave been included as foreigners improperly.This was difficult to avoid without a personalinvestigation. We aire assured that some 45Ier cent, of these foreigners nre under tiseeye of the Police Special B~ureau and that wewill not need to ''take care'' of them in anyevacuation scheme. We have arranged to billetthe remlainling foreigners with fellow-country-men in such areas as Osborne Park.. Spearwood,and the Swain.

Chinese-It hais been foundl thaqt there aresome 24 Chinlese in these areas1 which againwill have to he specially handled. Arrange-ments have been made to take these peopleout separately and the Chung Wall Associationlwill arrange for their billeting.

Prostitutes.-There are some 10 to 12 prosti-tutes in this area, which againi represent aproblem which has been specially arranged for.

Essential Service Employes-it was thedesire of the Military that essential serviceshe interfered with as little ats possible, conse-quently in grouping evacuees we have bad to-deal with these employees and their householdsin separate categories; in arranging for theirevacuation we have placed them in the atreasnearest to Frenmantle and North Fremantle.Nevertheless, these households represent somany that on the northwards they have spreadas far as Claremont and on the south side ofthe river they occupy all thle billets availablein Fremantle, East Fremantle, and Melvilledistricts.

Pregnant Woman.-It is most undesirable toleave such eases in these areas up to the lastMinute, consequently they have been exhortedto keep in touch with the appropriate InfantHealth Centres, and the sisters at those Ce-ntreshave been asked to persuade women to go to

2944

[15 APmI, 1942.] 24

rest homes or other premises, outside of theevacuation area, at least fourteea days beforeexpectation date. In the ease of poor persons'we will hare to mleet tile cost of any such accoml-modation.

After the census cardls wvere reasonably com-plete thle next step was to group all these insuitable numbers (approximately 50 being tilesize of each group) for transport purposes.This stage provided us with 182 groups.

The next stage was in the hands of the trans-port people, through the Hon. T. IT. Bath, whohas proved himself at valued member of thecommittee, nil there was produced by Mr.Adamis of tilte Metro. Co. and his associates are-grouping of the evacuees based on our pri-mary plan, designating assembly points, andgrouping into b)us loads. This plan resultedin 117 different assembly points being desig-natted at whichi people wvill gather, entailingaltogether 2534 bus trips.

This represents the arrangement; with oneexception referred to later, at the' departureend of the slcme.

Billeting.-A big task was the arrangementof the necessary billets for these 9,500 people.Our first plonbliitv was to urge people to offerto accept evacuees, but we soon found that,either through unwillingness or lethargy, wewould never reach our objective, consequentlypublicity hadl to be givenk to the powers forcompulsory billeting, and the canvass of house-holders to secure billets had to be considerablystiffened up.

T want to dleal with only one other ques-tion, whiech was raised by thle member forPerth (Mr. 'Needham111) and refers to flyingglass. I have read many hundreds of pagesof information from oversen onl this subject,and all the authorities, without exception-.save one Agent Geoneral-state that tilegreatest danger in anl air red is flying glass,from which more people are killed andwounded than fronm concussion and frag-ments of bombs. In the early stages we setout to get, as a means of protection, wire ofa certain gauge. The Perth City Counciland the Retail Traders' Association agreedthat there were always large numbers ofpeople in the city, night and day. Thesewere likely all to be killed, especially womenwith babies and children gazing at shopwindows, in the event of an air raid. ThePerth City Council decided that in view ofthe large numbers of people who would bein the city at any one time, with only twoplaces for sheltering-even now there are notmany buildings available in the city to beclassed as Al shelters--certain steps shouldbe taken. Places like Foy & Gibsons orB3oans, firms having 1,250 to 1,500 em-ployees, have provided shelters, but in addi-tion to their employees there would be 450

to 500 other people on the premises at anyhour of the day; and this factor was takeninto consideration.

The firms realised that the proper coursewas to clear out the shop windows andthere construct wrhat are called bund shel-ters, capable of accommodating thousandsof people. A deputation put up the projectto me. They asked me if the Governmentwould be prepared to assist on a pound forPound basis with the City Council if theytook the glass out and put up these bunds.I grabibed the offer with both hands becauseit was an exellent scheme for providinggo od shelters handy for the people. Thenext thing that happened was a naturalconsequence. These business people sad itwas no good their taking glass out of theirwindows if fims over the road were notgoing- to do so and were to continue havingbig wvindow displays. That was fairly logi-eat.' Consequently ve decided that all glassshould be taken out. Those who alreadyhad protected their premises to the satis-faction of the inspectors were permitted toretain the glass, but even they have removedit because they realise that if a bombdropped there would be no glass left. Ttis not difficult to imiagine what would hap-pen if a reasonably-sized bombl fell in Hay-street, and it wvas better for them to storethe glass and be able to use it later than toleave it there to be destroyed.

Mr. Fox: Experiments could be made toascertain the effect of bombs.

The 'MINISTER F OR MINES: Not with250 lb. bombs droppingr from 5,000 feet!

Mr. Fox: Less than that.The MINISTER FORi MINES: It is

too late to make experiment. I want topay a tribute to the people at Perth andFremantle who have taken these precau-tions. We put up a case to the Fremantlepeople, and they fell in with the idea. 1think it was the right thing to do. Certainpeople will complain about everything. Ithink I can honestly say that 95 per cent.of the business people in the metropolitanarea have obeyed the regulations, but theother 5 per cent. cause more worry to theinspectors and myself than enough. Oneman barred hi window and then took every-thing outside his store. The regulations pro-vide that no) displays are allowed except in-side a shop. The inspector ordered the manto put his goods inside, but after the in-spector had gone they were returned out-

2946

2946 [ASSEMBLY.]

side. Then two inspectors were appointed,one following shortly alter the other, sothat the man was bluffed into leaving hisgoods inside the shop for at least an houror two.

I desire to say a word or two about evacua-tion in country areas. The 0.0.0. conceivedthe idea that it might be necessary to evacu-ate *dl wvonien and children and elderlypeople from the metropolitan area, andaked me to give him an idea how many toserewere in that category and what were thepossibilities of shifting them quickly to whatlie declared was the only safe place to sendthem, namely, the Great Southern. I askedhim why the Great Southern and he replied- All other places may be dangerous and wethink the Goreat Southern is the safest."'It did not take us long to discover that therewere about 133,000 to lie shifted. We mui-mnediately consulted the Water Supply En-Vincer who pointed out that the 56,000 peoplethen in the area were on a daily ration of15 gallons of wvater. When we put the posi-tion to one militaryv official he said, "Whatdon you want 15 gallons at day for?" So we,,aid, "'Assume that 3,000 can be takenand can still have 15 gallons a day.Or double that numiber and reduce the rationby half. That would be 712 gallons a daywhich is not too much for people in WesternAustralia particular-ly when the supply ofbeer is limited! Even then there would stillbe over 100,000 people we would not knowwhat to do with." 'When this was madeclear, we were told, "Well, wash the wholeidea out."

This will give mnemrbers an idea of the posi-tion that arises when military mnen conic hereaind know nothing about our State. Wesent a report to the military au1thorities- re-arding the water suipply position and Tpropose to give the partieulars, which willlie illuminating to those mnembers who arenot iii the Great Sonthern. The details area., follows:-

Pingelly.-KNorinal population 900. Thistown has no portable water supply system-hounse tanks only. All houses in the town arenow stated to he occupied, due to influx ofevacuees from the metropolitan area. Thistown is not a suitable centre for any evacua-tion plan.

Brookton.-Noril population 500. Watersupply storage is ve-ry low. Service restrictedto 60 minutes per day. The Railway Depart-ment rely on this supply as an importantwatering point. This town is not a suitableCentre for any evacuation plan.

Na crogin-Normal population 3,500. Thureservoir has a capacity of approximately 78million gallons; stoinge today is 13,677,000gallons. Assumiag average winter rainfall,and continuance of restrictions and allowingfor 500 troops and the 700 evacuees alreadyin the townI it will be reasonably safe top~lace a further 300 persons in the town.

Wagia.-Normal population 1,200. Thereservoir has a capacity of 20 million gallons;storage today is 4,833,000 gallons. It is notknown how niany people have evacuated toW'a gin. The storage today is low, and theRailway Depiartmnent nre still carting loco.water to Wagin. Until storage has consider-ably increased, it would not lie wise to placeany, number of evacuees in this town.

IKatanning-Normal population 2,1011. Reser-voir hais capacity of 30 umillion gallons; storagetoday is 9,500,000 gallons. Mr. Seward, Mt.LA.ertimates the influx of evatuees at 1,000;other estimates vary between 700 and 1,000.If normal winter rains occur and restrictions

aemaintained a.n additional 800pesncould be carried.

Mr. Seward: I have niothing to do withKatanning.

The MIN1ISTER FOR MIX1ES: The lion.nenilher mulst have lint upl an es;timate to

,someonle at some1 timel. To conlim- (lie

Bridge town.-Nornual popiulatinl 2,10n0.Reservoir eapacity 30 million gallons-, storagetoday 11,848 gallons. Already approximately300 people have mnigrated to Bridgetown.Assuming iiorma1Li winter1 rains and restric-tions maintained, approxiinatelY 000 a ddi-tional people could be maintained.

Dangini-Quairading.-Normal population 5100,Reserv-oir capacit ,y five million gallons; stor-age today 3,059,000 gallons. This suplil-ybarely mecets local requirements, and therehas already beeni a cons4iderable influx ofevacuees. This area is not recommended asan evacuee centre.

Bruce Roek.-Norial population 600. Reser-voir capacity 4,600,000 gallons; storage on2.1/3/42, 1,194,000 gallons. This town is notrecommended as an evacuee centre.

It must he borne in miand that families arcevacuatinig continuously' to those towns-par-timularlY Narrogin anad KaLtanning-aindtherefore the additional 11opulation capacityof th- various water supplies, as stated above,will decrease ais time goes on.

The capacities set out are calculated froma water capacity only, and aire independentof the housing capacity of each town.

I read that to mnembers, to indicate thatwhen mass. cvaeuiatibn is talked about, wemust ask ourselves where we are going toput the evacuees. The Military Departmentsay that that is the only safe area of whichthey know, but it is not much good sendingpeople to places where there is not muchwater. I have endeavoured to outline some

2946

[15 Aram, 1942.] 2947

of our activities. I admit we have had alot of criticism; some of it deserved and alot of it undeserved. All I can say is thatthe council and the organisation generallyhave done and are doing all that is possiblein the circumstances, and in the face ofmany disabilities. I wish to pay a tributeto the 9,000 men and women who have soardently practised and worked to makethemselves efficient in an honorary capacity,and who are prepared to take all sorts ofrisks when the time comes to carry out theirjob.

Mr. faney: Have you not received frommost of the centres likely to be concerned inthe accommodation of evacuees reports inrespect of population, and other relevant in-formation in regard to what numbers canbe put upt

The MINISTER FOR MINES: No. Iwas only asked to say how many peoplewould have to be put into a certain nrea.I want to pay a tribute to the members ofthe Civil Defence Council who have nevermissed a meeting unless they have been inthe Eastern States, and have earnestly ap-plied themselves to their jobs; to the wholeof the committees associated with them;and generally speaking to all those whohave assisted. I want to thank the very mianypeople--95 per cent-who have assisted byobeying the regulations. If we are giventhe support we should receive and have aright to expect then if the time comes, whichwe hope it never will, for the organisationto be tested, that organisation, of which Iam chairman at the moment, will be ableto do its job as efficiently as will any othersection of the community.

MR. J. H. SMITH (Nelson) [4.1.2]: 1desire to thank the Premier and the Gov-ernment for calling Parliament togetherand giving members an opportunity to ex-press their views, anid criticise anythingthat they consider to have been done againstthe best interests of Western Australia. Ilistened with a good deal of pleasure to theinformative addresses delivered by differentMinisters. It was worth while Parliamenthaving been called together, if only for thepurpose of providing us with that first-handiniforination. I intended to have a gooddeal to say about the department of theMinister controlling Civil Defence, particu-larly in regard to safe and unsafe areas.My district is considered to be a safe area,

but the people wanted to provide all pro-tection possible against air raids. In spiteof their enthusiasm we could get no satis-faction from the Civil Defence Council. Isaw the Minister last week, however, andhe informed me that everything was nowall right, and everybody would he in thesame category.

We do not enjoy any of the moneys beingspent by the Commonwealth or the StateGovernments, but we did not require thatexpenditure. All we desired was recognitionand permission to establish an organisationand appoint our wardens and committees.With that end in view we held big publicmeetings in my district and committees wereformed and elaborate plans devised, withmen at every centre, with regard to watersupplies, electricity and such like things.Yesterday the secretary rang me and saidhe regretted that I had received no repliesto reply-paid telegrams and other messagessent to him but the department had beenin a turmoil, and I can easily understandthat after having listened to the Minister.He said he would send me full particularsimmediately. That information when re-ceived will be forwarded to my people.

The Minister for M.%ines: How long agowas your telegram sent?

31r. J. H. SMITH: Three weeks ago. Ireceived a message from Mr. Long yester-day apologising for the delay.

The Minister for Mines: Mr. Long is therepresentative of the local authorities.

Mr. J. H. SMITH: Wit), the regard toblack-outs for vehvicle, the Minister himselfhas showvn that it is practically a farce.More people arc going to be killed by motorears. as a result of that method than willbe killed as a ]-esult of aid raids. The black-outs for vehicles do not suit the country dis-tricts and some differentiation must be ar-ranged. People cannot possibly drive oncountry roads with their lights as they are.Whoever p)ossesses the authority shouldmake the necessary alteration. I was verypleased on behalf of my electors, who dependfor their livelihood upon agriculture, to hearthe speech of the Minister for Labour coul-cerning the Campion alunite deposits. Thatwill provide some 'consolation for the future,and that which it is proposed todo represents a step in the rightdirection. I am not concerned whetherthe industry is conducted by theState or as a private enterprise. The

2948 [ASSEMBLY.]

Minister told us that private enterprise couldnot find the' money, and that the State wascoining into the business for the purpose ofopening up the deposits. It was expectedthat we would have phasphates availablenext year.

My fear is that somec of the people whowere concerned may come in later on andtake over what may then be a prosperousproposition, with the result that the farmerswill be penalised. I listened to the iml-minating address delivered by the Ministerfor Lands. Ha covered practically everyphase of agriculture in which this State isinterested. I am prepared to give him andhis officers all the assistance I can. We arein a most difficult position, and it behovesevery member of Parliament to do his iii-most in the interests of the country to assistin winning the war. The Minister for Landsreferred to the flax industry which has beendeveloped for war and other purposes. Iathat eonnection, too, I am prepared to vitthe department at any time and offer myservices. The same remarks npply to the to-bacco industry, which in this State has abright future. The Mlinister told us hieaimied atan area of 5,000 acres of tobaccofor next year or the year after. The plan-tations now extend to Karridale, but mostof the vast South-West is suitable for to-bacro growing. I have been an advocate formany years of the plan that we should havea post-war examination to see what land wehave available for the growing of tobaccothat is so badly needed in this country.There was every .ustifleation for callingParliament together so that members mighthear the speech es of Ministers.

I was disappointed in the statement madeby the Premier and had expected to hearmuch more than T did. I thought possibly asecret session might be held at which thePremier would have given us much more in-formation, brought us more closely intotouch with thing,, and apprised us of allthat he had learned from the Federal Gov-ernment. The 'Minister for Mines, 'how-ever, told us that he only got his informa-tion from what hie read in the Press. I hada9 different view of the matter- Iknow that mnembers of the Govern-ment and] of the Labor Party gene-rally had a meeting and that a state-ment was afterwards given to the news-panpers. I thought I had been left ont, andthat those members were getting informa-

tion that we on this side of the House werebeing deprived of. Apparently I was wrongin my impression. I asked the Leader ofour Party, the member for West Perth (Mr.MUcDonald), to commence overtures with aview to inducing the Premier to call Par-liament together and give us some of the in-formation we so badly needed. You, Mir.Speaker, have already told us that you areprepared to allow a wide range of discus-,;ion on the motion before the Chamber. Imay refer to matters about which the Pre-mier has not spoken. If I do, and am out oforder, no doubt you will correct mc. I amdisappointed that certain questions werenot referred to by the Premier.

My first remarks will be concerning thegoldfields and the mining industry. Thathas, been the lbrig-ht spot in Western Aus-tralia for the last few years, for in effectthe industry has kept Western Australia, toa great extent, on the map. It was withgreat regret I read in the Press that theFederal Government had sent its ambassa-dor to Western Australia in Mr. Johnson,M.H.R., to warn the goldfields that the in-dustry was about to be closed dQwn, andthat only sufficient men could be retained init to keep the mines unwatered. That gavea shock to every citizen in the State. Iwill, howeve~r, leave that question to gold-fields members,, because they are moredirectl y affected than I am. Such a movemeans the death knell of the industry, forwe shall never re-establish the mines oncethey are closed down, and that will be theend of them. I suppose the. next subject Iwill dleal with will be referred to by severalmembers, but no reference was made to itby the Premier. I am speaking of the Ar-bitration Court.

I point out that the cost. of living hats in-creased recently by leaps and bounds, andyet the President of the Arbitration Courtwould] not permit wages to he increased ona pro rata basis. I have never heard of sucha thing. The Government is a large em-ployer of labour, and I should have thoughtthat as it is a Labour Government it wouldhave taken steps to see that this wrong wasput right. The unions appealed to theSupreme Court, but that court naturally saidthe Arbitration Court could do no wvrong.

The Minister far Labour: Why "natur-Ally"9?

Mr. J. J-. SMITH: That is what hap-pened. In the face of the evidence that was

2948

[15 APTUL, 1942.J 2949

provided and of the (lifficulty that men haveto live on the basic wvage, I do not see howthe court could have refrained from makingthe necessary adjustments.

Mr. J. Hegney: You supported arbitra-tration when it reduced wages some yearsago.

Mr. J. H. SMITH: If any other Govern-ment had been in power the hon. memberwould have been tearing round the countryfrom one end of it to the other protestingagainst that sort of thing. I can imaginewhat he would have said. Why does he notair his own grievances here, as I am doinglIf the Government of the day wrill not dothe right thing in his opinion, let him seethat some other Government takes its place.Throughout my Parliamentary life I haveadvocated full obedience to ArbitrationCourt awards. The court is bound to do acertain thing, and it has refrained fromdoing it on this occasion.

I now wish to refer to the liquor trade. Iknow the Premier is anxious that the ses-sion should] end as early as possible, thoughI am opposed to that. We could for weeksdiscuss matters affecting the liberty of thepeople. This is the only opportunity wehave to do so. If it is necessary that thePremier should attend a conference in theEastern States, his place could well betaken by the deputy Premier who has dlonesuch a thing before. I promise the Preierthat no snap vote will he taken and that nomotion of want of confidence in the Govern-nient will be moved. Parliament could stillgo on, and continue to sit until we gotthings on a proper basis and had sonmcsatisfaction from the Government. ManyFederal regulations have been promulgated.What is the Federal Government? We knowthat it is constituted by the will of the peo-ple. I am not speaking in a derogatorymanner concerning it when I say that theFederal Government must be made up oftemperance advocates or reformed drunks,or something of the kind. Those Ministersare frying to take away the liberties of thepeople and to break down our licensin~glaws. If I stand alone I am going to advo-cate that our licensing lawvs shall remain asthey are, line for line, irrespective of sex.However, we are not working under thelicensing laws today, but under silly andfoolish regulations, promulgated by anhysterical Government, which has beenstampeded. The hours for trading have been

reduced from 9 am, to 9 p.m. to 9 a.m. to6 p.m. During the last war the Governmentavoided the troubles that have recently oc-curred by closing hotels completely whenconvoys were in and telling people theycould not drink on those days. Why wasthat not done on recent occasional

Mr. J. Hegney: Why interfere with theliberty of people?

31r. J. H. SMITH: If the hon. memberdoes not drink in hotels, many of his elec-tors do, and why should they not do so?The supply of beer is to be cut down byone-third. That affects also wines andspirits.

Mr. Cross: Not wine.Mr. J. H. SMITH-r It will apply to wine

as I will prove. Of the wines consumed inWestern Australia, 75 per cent, come fromthe Eastern States. We cannot get thatany more. All Australian whisky comesfrom the sanie source. In a few months weshall not be able to get a bottle of whisky.The same thing applies to Australian brandyand gin, while Scotch whisky will be un-procurable. Many thousands of new peoplehave come to the State and yet the supplyof beer is to be restricted by one-third. Ihave no brief for publicans either in themetropolitan urea or elsewhere. They arewell enough organised to look after them-'.selves. I am speaking for the thousands ofin engaged in making munitions, our civilarray, who must wvork till 6 o'clock at nightand cannot get a glass of beer on their wayhome, notwithstanding that they may havebeen accustomed to it all their lives.

Mir. J. Hegney: What can we do about it?Mr. J. H. SMITH: Impress upon the Gov-

ermnent to do somethin.Mr. J. Hegucy: But there is a war on!Mr. J. H. SM.%ITH: A war on! I know

there is a war on! There is a war on tonightT am looking after the welfare of the people.In regard to the restriction of the manufac-tnt-c of liquor, I point out that we were toldlast night that Western Australia's popula-tion had increased from 460,000 to 600,000."hat should ire expect the Government to

(10? In my opinion, we ought to send amessage to the Federal Government, throughthe Premier, stating that we object to therestriction and to the reduction in hours, onaccount of our isolated position.

The Minister for Labouir: What about apetition to the King!

2950 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. J. H. SMITH: I am not talking aboutthat.

Mr. Thorn: Would a petition to the PrimeMinister do?

Mr. J. H. SMITH: I am not talkingabout that, either. I am afraid that perhapsthe Prime Minister has been nobbled. Mem-bers must bear in mind what has appeared inthe Press. Various temperance organisa-tions have been advocating 6 o'clock closingof hotels, while many other organisationshave been advocating total prohibition. Onelady, the wife of the present Prime Minis-ter, attended a meeting of ladies and saidshe had been a member of a Band of Hopesince the age of eight years. Has some in-fluence been brought to hear on the PrimeMinister in that direction? That seems tome to be very likely, so what would be theuse of appealing to hint I am appealing tothe commonsense of members. I asked thePremier the other evening whether, if amajority of the members of this Parliamentsent such a message as I have suggested tothe Prime Minister, it would have the ap-proval of the Government. He replied thatof course it would. It is scandalous thattoday a p-erson cannot obtain a bottle ofbeer. If I desired to take a bottle of beerhome tonight, I could not get it, not evenin Parliament House. It shows the foolish-npss of all this restriction. it is evidenceof the foolishness of this Government for notprotesting against the regulations when theywere introduced.

I shall now deal with the restriction oftrading hours. The trading hours of hotelswithin a radius of 25 miles of the mnetropoli-tan area are now fixed from 9 a~m. to 6 pi.I wonder whether the Government consideredfor a moment that this would have the effectof penalising many thousands of people whousually buyv a drink after knocking off work.Did the Government consider whether theywere penalising people who worked eight orten miles out of the city and who find thehotels closed when they return? Did theGovernment consult the trade? I know therewere some terrible orgies when troops landedfroui transports, and I agree that somethingshould be done to stop them. When thetransports arrive, some 2,000 or 3,000 mencome ashore, and what are they to do? Wewere wiser during the 1914-18 war. I didnot see any reception committees in Perthor in the suburbs to meet the 10,000 menwho returned from Tobruk, Greece, Crete

and other countries. Was there a receptioncommittee at Freman tie?

Mr. Tonkin: Yes.Mr. J. H. SMITH: Those men wandered

about like lost sheep. Naturally, they driftedinto hotels, because there were no eanteenson the transports. I do not think the Gov-ernment did the right thing then.

(Mr. Withers took the Chair.)

Mr. Tonkin: The hion. member ought tobe more generous to those people who workedon the reception committees. They did theirutmost.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!Mr. J. H. SMITH: I say that the great

majority of those men were not met by re-ception committees.

Member: But no one knew they werearrivin1g.

Mr. J. H. SMITH: Does the lion, memberthink that the State or the Federal Govern-mnents did not know?7 As regards the drunkenorgies, why did not the military authoritiesappoint pickets? Why did not the Gov-ernment suggest to the military authori-ties that they should appoint a thousand ormore pickets to control the soldiers? TheState police should not be expected to doit. They are doing their own job and doingit properly. How could they control thous-ands of soldiers? No doubt the scenes weredisgraceful, bitt whbat did the Governmentdo? It did nothing, except stampede andclose the hotels at 6 o'clock, thus denyingordinary people their right to obtain re-freshment after that hour.

Hon. C. G. Lathamn: That was done dur-ing the last war period.

Mr, J. H.L SMITH: The Governmentclosed the hotels.

Hon. C. G. Latham: The Governmenttook power under a proclamation to do asit liked.

Mr. J. H. SMITH: The Governmentclosed the hotels. Perhaps the Leader ofthe Opposition is'just as much in the mireas is the Government, notwithstanding hiswonderfully sound and loglical advice andthinks ha knows the pulse of the peopleof this country, every) one of them!

Several members interjected.The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order IThe Minister for Labour: We will have

to get the member for Subiaco to deal withyou.

2950

[15 AnaL, 1942.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order!Mr. J. H. SMITH: 'I have not many

lights, but I have never hidden them undera bushel. The regulations restricting thehours of trading are to be appliedthroughout the State, and that is what willcrack somne of the goldfields men. The lawwill also be enforced in the agriculturaland timber districts that I represent.

Mr. Styants: As it always has been.Mr. J. HI. SMITH: It has been enforced

with commonsense. I have just had handedto me a note, 'Mr. Deputy Speaker, whichstates that the member for Subiaco sup-ports me. I thank the hon. member.

Mrs. Cardell-Oliver: I did niot w~rite thenote.

Mr. J. H. SMITHI: There must be no dif-ferentiation. We should oppose these regu-lations tooth and nail, The Federal Gov-ernment must have been advised last 'Mon-day about the opposition to thema by thegoldflelds members- at a meeting held pre-viously to that day. The result of themeeting Nvas published in the Press. Wehave worked well under our presen 't licens-ing law, -which has been in force since 1922and has functioned satisfactorily.

I want the Premier to insist that becausethe hours of trading have been reduced by,-even-twelfths, rents and cost of leasesof hotels should be reduced by seven-twelfths; rates, taxes, insurance andtother items should he similarly re-dared. That is hut fair to the trade. Ireceived a letter from my constituents thismorning asking ine to oppose the regulationswith all my power, and I aim doing so. Iknow country hotelkeepers will be unableto afford to pay the existing rents, and theyshould be given the benefit of a moratorium.They are making but a bare existence now.When it was possible for them to sell beer,at Easter time, instead of receiving fromeight to ten casks, they received only five.This restriction on trading and this ration-ing are the most foolish things I have knownof in the history of this State. I could tellmembers a story about rationing, were themember for Snbiaeo (Mrsm. Cardell-Oliver)not present.

Would it not be better, in the interestsof the State, if we could supply the peoplewith the goods they want? The trade canbe controlled. During the 1914-18 war thefemale clement was not in evidence to thesame extent as it is in this war. During

the last wvar, the hotels did not have loungesfor females, for the purpose of de-coying unwary men to come in and1( buythem a drink. I have seen girls passingParliament House With men from trans-.ports-young girls 16 or 17 yearsold-going to the Park to have aquiet drink. Event the member fo~rNedlands wrote to the Press notlong ago inquiring how long this orgyof drunkenness was to continue. We canavoid that sort of thing, if the Governmenattakes the right Couirse. Since the hotels haveclosed at 6 pin., drunkenness has neverbeen so rife in the State. Every day onecan pick uip the paper and read of 20, 30,40 and even 50 drukards appearing in.the police court.

'Mr. Hughes: That is only because thepolice are now prosecuting drunkards.

Mr. J. HI. SMI1TH: I do not think so.The police arc an honourable body of mna.As I said, drunLkenness has never been sorife in this State. One of the reasons isthat a good deal of cadging is going on. Aman will beg a couple of shillings and, ifhe gets it, will immediately go into a hotelandl drink as long as thv mnoney lasts. Yetpeople who arc entitled to drink after theyhave been working for 12 hionrs or so aredenied that privilege. It is said that thewvives of such men are qunite able to goto the hotel and puirehase bottles of betrfor their husbands. Possibly such womenmay' not have been previously in a hotel iiitheir lives, and] if' that sort of thing is tohe encouraged it may inefin just siome morewomnen who will take to drink. If suchwomen go to hotels once or twice, it is merelya preliminary to establishing the drinkinghabit. I am opposed to the whole business.

On the notice paper there is a motion withthe terms of which I do not agree, but whichI shall not discuss at this stage. If we eai-not get the Governmenit to act and] Parlia-ment has to reach a decision, I think thestep) to be taken is to provide differentiationin the hours of trading. If the. hours oftrading are to be reduced to seven through-out the State, let us fix those hours so thatthey will operste most suitably in the dlis-tricts concerned. I have walked about thecity streets and I think the hours that would1'e most suitable here would he from 11 si.to 2 p.m., with a respite of two hours, andthen the hotels could open from 4 to 8 p.m.I think that would suit everyone.

[ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. J. HRegney: It would not suit themunition workers.

Mr. J1. HI. SMITH: I have heard aboutsome at the Midland Junction Workshopswho, when they found that the hotels wereto close at 6 o'clock and that they could notin consequence get a drink, said, "That isthe end of that." They walked across in abody at 5.30 p.m. and got their drinks. Isthat statement conrect ?

Mir. Thorn: I do not think it is.M1r. 3. H. SMITH: I heard it was true

and will have it verified tomorrow.Mr. Thorn: The fact remains that the

workers are entitled to a drink.Mr. J. H. SMITH: Of course. I was in

the hotel business for 13 years when thehours of trading were from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m.and it was the exception to see a drunkenmanl on any hotel premises. I do not thinkone drunken manl was, ever taken away fromil hotel.

The Mfinister for Labour: What did youdto with them?

Mr. J. If. SMITHE: It should he distinctlyunderstood that we have now a respite and,we hare gold fields members to thank forthat. Something should be done regardingthe regulations and that is why I want Par-liament to sit during next week and possiblyluring the succeeding week. As the member

for MAurehison (Mr. Marshall) pointed outyesterday, reguIlations are framed and wehave no opportunity to deal with them. Iwant Parliament to sit so that we can dis-cuss% them and I give the Premier my assur-ance that votes of no-confidence will not betabled]. I have paired with the member forForrest (Mr. Holman) and that pair will hecontinued throughout the war period. Itrust the Oovernment will give mrembersample opportunity to discuss the motion ap)-pealingr on the notice paper to which I havealready made reference. I am opposed alto-gether to any alteration to the existinglicensing laws. I venture the opinion that75 per cent. of the people of Western Aus,-tralia arc opposed to the restriction of trad-ing hours suggested bl'y the Government.'Who wants a drink at 6 am.

Member: I do!Mr. J. H. SMUIT: I know the hon. memn-

ber does not frequent hotels at all. I think11 a.m. is quite early enough for tradinghours to commence. When I have invited amail to have a drink, I have frequently re-reired the reply, "No thanks, ,Tack, it ii

altogether too early; I never drink before11 o'clock." For my part, it is never toolate and never too early. I have been drink-ing all my life. For 13 years my hotel keptme; for 22 years I have been keeping hotels!I

T trust the Premier will take heed of whatI hlave been saying. hie is up against apretty tough proposition regarding the tim-ber, flax said other workers in my electorate.Take the position at Boyup Brook, wheresome 200 additional flax workers have becomeestablished. The ration of beer provided forthe hotel keeper there is sneh that he cannotsupply the extra demand. Upwards ofsix months ago the business of the hotelwas almost on a starvation basis, and thehotelkeeper was getting practically nothingb~y way of return., after five years' work.Thea the influx of population came and hecould not secure the beer necessary to pro-ride for their requirements. No provisionis mnade to meet such a situation. I hopethe Government will deal with this proble-mwisely. As I indicated before, 75 per cent.of tile wine sold here is imported from theEastern States, from which the whole of thebrandy, gin and whisky supplies are alsoprocured. We are in a cleft stick and tradehas been sacrificed and crucified. No one wvilldeny that hotel keepers represent a veryfine and] resimeetable section of the cum-niulnitv.

[The Speaker resumned the Chair.]

Mr. Ton2kin:- Of the hotels 75 per cent.are owned bly the breweries.

M 1r. J,11 I. SMITh: Even if that werecorrert, the Government has restricted pro-fits to 4 per eent. Therefore it would notmatter if the Swan Brewery made 10 timesthe qunntity of beer it does and made 10times the amount of profit, because profitsare restricted to 4 per cent.

Mr. .1. Hlegney: They make up on therentals.

Mir, J. H. SMITH: They, cannot receivemore than 4 per cent. on their nmoney.

Mr. J. Hlegney: There is a rake-off.Mr. J. If. SMITH: The Glovernment gets

the yak-c-off. There are a number of hotelsin my district, and T do not think one isowned by a brewery.

Mr. Raphael: Does Bertie Johnston ownthem 7

Mr. SPEAKER:- Order! The hall. memberwill address the Chair.

[15 APRIL, 1942.]

Mr. J. H. SMITil: I amn not concernedabout the ownership of the hotels but I amnConcerned about the silly regulation thdit hasbeen proposed. I have never known anythingmlore silty than the proposal to operate from9 to 6. The Government must have beenstampeded in a fit of hysteria into doingsomething silly, whereas it hadl the wholeposition at its finger tips, seeing that itcould say to hotel keepers, "You have servedthis person with quite enough; it mnust stop."Then with a hang thle whole thing would befixed.

MR. SAMPSON (Swan) [4.55]: 1 wasinterested to hear the statement mando hr,the Minister for Mine-, regarding civil do-fence matters, and I amt pleased indeed re-garding the recog-nition he has given to allparts of the State. The pound for poundSubsidy should have been provided for alldistricts where the servive was required toenable satisfactory measures of protection tolie, affordled the people. For sonic reason or'other the subsidy has heen limited, and Ido not know that there wvill he rnch objee-lion to that. People are in favour today ofdoing all within their power to assist in pro0-viding shelter trenches or slit trenche;-. Ibelieve that mo1st country road boardls havetaken uip this work and have carried it outwithout reference to the Civil DefenceCouncil ur, if reference has been made to thatbody, have undertaken thema in accordanecwith the advice tendered.

Particularly in the outer suburban ii-tricts a tremendows number of people it-(enguaged in Red Cross work, and at One en~trein one hills district an oriranisation of about70 women meets frequently and spends atleast one full day a week in cutting out andmaking garments, niany thousands of whichhare been provided. In tihe samne district anloffer has been mnade to secure a siren. T nother (lireetionis the efforts of the Civil IDe-fence Council have been heartily' endorsedand steps taken in order that everythingpossible may lie done to provide the nee"-sary requirementst for the district. Oneroad board in my electorate was advised thatits staff of workmen was required to con-struct a road leading to a new camp that wasbeing prepared. The board immediatelyagreed to the men being trade available andalso its foreman engineer. That course wa sadopted in a spirit of pride that they hadan1 opportunity to assist ii the war effortThat is an indication of the splendid spirit

(1031

that animates the people in the country dis-triets. They are prepared to denionstrat'that they are united in this putriotic work.That is being done throughout all parts ofthe State.

Some buildings arc being taken over andvarious organisations have been deprivedof their meeting places, but nowhere hare Ihecard of ainy objection being raised. Theselpeople are pleased and( proudl to know the 'are assisting those in charge of the defenceof thle State. We are all pleased, anx-iousand ready to hell) in any- direction whereassistance(-can he rendered. We look icr-Ward-(, of cour-se, to the time when the warwvill have enided. We have heard so muchiabout what is to b~e dlone then, of the reforuisthat will take place, of the nexv heaven and]niew% earth that will be provided. I hopethere is a sincere and real riire that thcethings shall be accomplished. The reformsthat are to be broaghit about will, I hope,intelude thle provision of opportunities forthe hoyvs of Western ilustralia. to learntrades. This is ain old some. It is customaryfor ie to speak of it and it is customnary forthe, Government to take no notice of whatis said.

Thle Minister for Mines: Oh no!

Mr. SAMPSON: Unifortunately that is so.Mlany lads hare been disappointed becauseof the lack of interest shown in the task ofgiving themn anl opportunity to learni a trade.Trhere canl he no stronger indictment than inrespect of the lack of interest, or if not lackof interest lack of action in this matter. It isdisgraceful and scandalous that the boys ofWestern Australia should be deprived of anopp)ortuniity whichi, if they lived in Russiaor certain other countries, would be theirs-hkr righlt. Is ufnemnployinen t to be thle lotof minny of ouir people- when the war is over?Or are we to have the dawn of a brighterday. such as is sometimes referred to by thenvinbher fr- 2fnirrhison (Mr. MarshJalf) when

men 4hall lie, treated on an equality and boy, sall harve the right to grow up (ilalifled t

earn1 a1 living. nor long'Ler having to dependnoon the charity of Governments for suts-tenance?

Our country can never manke real pronrsq;wve can never establish sound foundations onwhich to build, we can never hope to removethe anxiety in the minds of parents minle;4tbh- is done. Today, because of the lackof interest. because of the indifference pre-vailing, there is a --rent demand for those

[A.SSEMBLY.]

qualified to carry out work in certain second-ary industries, but the lads who are here arenot given the opportunity. There is onlyone thing for them to do and that is to gointo camp and learn the business of light-ing. This is certainly a desirable, honour-able and patriotic thing to do, but thoselads would have been better fitted for theirwork had they been able to learn a trade.No country can grow great on primary pro-(luction alone. We must never lose sight ofthat fact. Although we may work as hardas possible, although members may exercisetheir minds here to the utmost, primary pro-duction alone is not enough. We must havesecondary industries.

Riecently I had n opportunity to visit aeertain district and the works for which theBroken Hill Proprietary Co., Ltd., isresponsible. Following my visit I issued abooklet entitled "[ron and Steel," andmany complimentary references have beenmade to it. I am convinced that tothe B.H.P. the Conmmnonwealth owes a tre-mendous debt. If we had a few more likeorganisations, we would be in a far betterposition. We have seen sonmc of the muddlingand some of the red tape calaimities-redtape iii exeelsis--in this State. We havenoticed with regret the long- period necessarybefore the Government could prepare mnuni-tion works in one of the districts of thisState.

The 'Minister for Labour: Strangely'enough that has been done under the directcontrol of the B-FYs best men.

r.- 'SAMPSO0N: Then they must havebven hampered by red tape.

The Minister for Labour: They were not.M.%r. SAMPSON- Although I have great

faith in the Minister, I have absolute faithin the 1.H.P. authorities because when they,;Pt out to do somiething, they get it dlone.We know they are building ships9; we knowthat ships built by them at Wbyallai arc nowin ronussion.

Mr. flonry interjected.Mr. SPEAKER: The imember for

W'illinin-Niirog-iu is highly disorderly int-peakiiig when out of his seat.

M1r. SAMPSON: I am glad lie was incited14o make seine comment- I wish to refer tou-hat ar obviously our, failures. I want to114 what I can to assist, and that was my1oh pet in producing- the booklet. The factof having done that kept ine interested wthenthe 'Minister for Labour was speaking yester.

day. U Lnfortunately we talk and talk andget very little done. This country is a back-water of industrial indolence. We have gotnowhere. Secondary industries are almostunknown. If one is started, it is not longbefore it closes down.

The Minister for Labour: rfhat is not

Mr. SAMPSON: I am glad to hear thatremark, but unfortunately -we have manyinstances of works having closed down. Asthe shipping returns showv, we are largelydependent upon thc Eastern States. Whatdo we do for ourselves? I shball refer to thislater, Meanwhile I repeat that the B.H.P.has done something of which every one of usshould be proud, because it is anl Australianiorganisation. It has achieved amazing suc-cess. Water has been con veved from the faroff River Murray right to Whyalla. TheB.H.P. has done that, and not been content totalk about it for ever. Having started herealmost as a college boy, am I to finish up asan old man and see certain water needs inthis State continuing to he needs and noth-ing- dlone to provide them? Even at thismoment the water scheme from Morgan, onthe River 'Murray, is being completed tosupp)ly the districts of Whyalla and IronKnob.

The Minister for Labour: Have you heardof the wvater supply from Mundaring toKalgoorhie?

Mr. SAMPSO'N: I heard of it even be-fore I heard of the resplendent wonders,of the Minister. It was in existence beforesonic of us were born.

The Minister for 'Mines: At whom areyou looking?

'Mr. SAMPSON: Lord Forrest was saidto have been a poor speaker, but a wvon-derful worker, a mian of vision who did notconic into conflict with a mass of wordsto leave him impotent and the country hope-less.

The Minister for Labour: You shouldnot always have your eye on the end of Iheworld.

Mr. SA-MPSON: When I heard thechecering interjection by the Minister, I wassaying that the B.H.P. hiad] achieved ama.z-ing sueess. Today the work of that comn-pany is anl inspiration. Whelk one is ableto inspect and realise what this big Austra-lian org-anisation has done, one should nothesitate to acknowledge it. MuIch flippantand irresponsible criticism has been levelled

[15 APmUL, 1942.] 25

at the company*%, but not by those whoknow the facts. Why cannot we in thisState have benefits, similar to those providedin the.Eastern States by the B.II.P.? Wehave not got a Whyalla or a Port Pinie or atNewcastle in this State; neither have wehad the success which Broken Hill has en-joyed. Why have we not got iron and steelworks in Western Australia? Is there nopublic or private enterprise to find themoney to do what is necessary?

T he Minister for M1ines: A millionairelike von could find sonic of the money re-q uired.

Mr. SAM-%PSON: As an alleged million-aire, I would be happy to put somethinginto such a scheme, because I would con-sider my life not entirely useless if I haddlone something- to ktelp) towards puttingWestern Australia in the position where it,hould be able to help itself. We cannotlook after ourselves. We have to look tothe Eastern States. That is a truth whichhurts.

Mr. Styants: B.H.P. will tell you whythere is not an iron and steel industry inthis State.

Mr. SAM;%PSON-\: We can go on withoutB.H.P. and set up another organisation foriron and steel production. Australiahas done a tremendous amount of work inthat connection- Where would we be todaywithout it? Anyhow such work, whether itbe for military purposes or comniercial pu--poses,, ran be done in this State. We wanta limited company to establish production,and I believe that there are in this countrymen with finances who would enter into thle"cheme. But it must have at its head mienof rapacity-, able to handle the enterprise,with complete knowledge of it, and so ableto develop it. Yampi Sound awaits acti-vities.

The Minister for Mines: There are others,too.

Mr. SAMPSON: The 'Minister kniows fullwell that there are many iron deposits inthis State. It is extremjely' painful to real-ise that because wve lack appreciation of ourown capacity we go along in the haphazardfashion of today. This emergency has notsuddenly conme upon01 us. 'We have beenliving in a backwvater. ais it wvere- We havebeen shunted cat to a icde rail, and have beenleft marooned or stranded on the lines~ whileother c-ountries have advanced. I rcirret thatthe member for Mur'hison (Mr. Marshiall)

is not here, because somehow or other I havethe idea that that hon. member thinks goldis not an essential commodity and its pro-duction not of great importance. Let mn,assure him that we do desire to maintain ourlocal production of gold, and that the pro-duetion is necessary.

I have no intention of entering upon along discussion with regard to reform of ourmonetary standard or system. I do desire,however, to say that I hope no effort willbe wanting to make it possible for gold-mining to be nmitained in Western Ami-tra lie, 'We must maintain our standard ofex-hange, and the production of gold mustnot lag, A few moments ago the Ministerin charge of industrial development sort of'saqt up when I referred to our dependence or*the Eastern States. It is painful that weshould have to depend on those States to.so large an extent. Now I come to think of'it, was it not the Minister for Mines who.took thant view? The hon. gentleman, I.believe, more or less resented the suggestioirof the truth. Nevertheless, it is only truth.For our current needs there are, insufficientstocks. Gro into a grocery store today, amidwhat do people find?

The 31inister for Labour: Black currants!M1r. SAMPSON: Currents of backward-

ness in our development. Shops are halfempty already, and it cannot be said that weare in the war to the same extent that may beour unfortunate lot even tually. As regardsstores even in the city, T was in one thismorning and was amazed to see how veryshort it was of supplies wud how prices haveisenC.

With respect to evacuees' needs, these haveemihbasised the difficulty, because from alniostevery shop in those districts to which theyhave gone, there has beeni an urgent appealfor further supplies. We have a. keen de-miand front all sections, of the community,and of course this is; quite iii order, too.But we have gone too far. We have to fle-pend] on others for our- supplies. HadI weexercised greater wisdomD, We would haveconcentrated more men on primary prorl',e-t ion, on Production III ou r orchards,and our factories for things whichatre needed. Ymfortnna~tely there ap-pears to have been a lack of concept 0mmas to what is essential iii that -ear.Wrwvere never shorter of canned aoodc thai,we are today. T sumrmest, is the Ministverfoi Industrial Developmnent doir' every-thing possible to maintain snpplies

9955

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Mr. Withers: Would you support a State-controlled -canning industry?

Mr. SAMPSON: No, because..that wouldbe getting out. of the frying-pan into thefire. Something of the sort was operatingin Queensland years ago. I went along toQueensland land bad the Opportunity of in-sipecting that State factory; a11( I found itwas canning pineapples which werefar too unripe. Only af ter a corn-mnitten of direction had got goingand had insisted on nothing but ripefruit being canned, were we alwaysiable to obtain dependable pineapples fromQueensland. Let niot the nmenler for Bull-linry (Mr. Witliers lie led into thinkingthat A Government canl do these thing?,. TheMinister for Industrial lDevelopmient is face-ing a very heavy job.

Mr. Withers: Whomn do you blame for theinactivity? Not thle Government, surely!

Mr. SAMPSON: We have not beenvigilant as iregards local fac-tories. Atthe moment we must largely depend onloir. own efforts, in regard to food supplies.We arc. faving a need for food.

The Minister for M1ines: You have niotsaid anything about growing vegetables.

IYr. SPEAKER:- Order!Mr. SAMPSON: No. Vegetables may be

ilhydrated. It is possible to dlea) with themin that way rather than in thle limited waysuiggested by the Minister. Too many ment-ngaged in farming have been permitted togo into camnp. Not so long ago I was inthle southern distriet ind] was told of threebrothers, each of whomn has a dairy. Onewent into camp and the other two agreed toTook after the three dairies. Thea the secondwrent into camp and thle three dairies wereleft to the remaining brother, who was niotstrong enough to Took after one. There wassome reference to this incident in the niews-papers.

Mr. Cross: That is only hearsay.Mr. SAMPSON: As the Minister for

'Mines is aware, camnp life is very attractiveto men. There is a spirit of camaraderie,and the appeal to men is almost irres-istible. I took the opportunity early in theexistence of the Apple and Pear Board toexpress my view of what was being doneby the board. I still feel that assistance formarketing is essential; although this year Ithink it will be unnecessary to provide theassistance by which orchardists uinderthe scheme are to bie paid i2s. to

8s. a case for apples, while a quan-tity of apples -of poorer grade are to'be sold for stock feed at 7s. 6d. -a ton. Ithink that is a mistake. My firm convictionis that before many months pass we shallhe in need of all qualities available,

I hope the board will give considerationto developing the opportunities which it hasfor distributing apples and pears. There isgreat need for this. When I was a Tad andlived in South AUStralial it was necessary toexercise economy; and in the apple seasonit was customlary for some of the youngerruenibers of the family to peel and coreapples, which were then dtried onl long bam-boos. Th'lo.e dried apples were an1 excellent

substite for the fresh fruit, andl I do riotk-now why the practice should not hr- foT-]owed here. We can rest assured that thedried fruit will be wyelcomed niot ak- byour soldiers, but by housewives. it isnutritious food anti to treat it in that wayis surely better than to sell it for stockfeed.

Mr. Withers: Do not you know that tonsof appler, are being dried for the soldiersthis i-ear?

Mr. SA-MPSON: I am glad to hear it. Iwas recently in anl apple1~ growing district,hut could find no evidence of its being (lonethere. It shou0ld( be deiCloped as much asp)ossihle. There arc some phases of theb~oard's project for marketing with whichait the moment I do not agree. At the sametime, I ani convinced that some control isnecessary, but I do niot want a clasof control which will have the ef-fect of turning people against or-granisations for marketin. I do not wantanythinge to be done that will discourage theMinister from doing what I consider to beone of his first duties, namely, to look- afterthe scientific marketing of fruit. Too manypeople on the land have been discouragedbecause they have never had a fair deal;,when thle price goes up the commodity isrationed; when it comes down, they receivea non-paying price.

I was interested to hear the Minister forLands say yesterday that he was not p~re-pared to sponsor all that the Apple and PearBoard had done or was doing. He is quiteright. Of course, the work of any organisa-tion cant be improved, but I am entirely op-pone'd at present to the sale of- fruitfor stock. Another miatter deals; withcases. We should exercise nil Poo-

2056

[15 APRIL, 1942.] 25

nomy in this respect. I know that theuse of secondhand eases is not permitted;there is always the fear that fruitfly might thereby be distributed. However,if the Plant Diseases Act were enforcedthere would be little, if any, distribution ofthe fruit fly by means of such eases. Fur-ther, fuimigation would solve the problem oftransmission of disease. It would also solvethe problem. of the distribution of the codlinmoth, In passing, I pay a tribute to thedepartment for its success in preventing thecod liii moth from multiplying in WesternAustralia. Not once, but many times, hasthis been done. The codlin moth is a per-sistent pest, and I know what a burden itbecame to the growers of South Australiaaind how difficult it was to bring it undercontrol and extirpate it. We do not wantthe codlin moth in this State and thus placeon the growers -another levy.

The war position calls for practical eco-nomy and I would like consideration to begiven-if it can he done without danger tofruitgrowers-to permitting the use of fruitcases more than once. It is not easy to getfruit-case wood. Labour is scarce, and Ithink this is a matter that might well re-ceive consideration. I believe that in certaininstances this course has already been taken,and the action might well be acknowledgedand approved. I hope the Minister willtake a firm hold of the subject and, afterdiscussing the matter with his officers, pro-vide that in future, subject to certain con-ditions being carried out, fruit cases maybe used more than once.

I realise and everyone who beard theM.Ninister speaking yesterday must realise,that looking after the Department of Agri-cult tire is a l);g job, and I repeat what I havesaid on previnus occasions that it is at full-time job for one man. I look around theGovernment side of the House and I do notconsider there would be any very great dif-ficulty in finding another MIinister-au Hon-orary Minister if necessary-to give theMinister for Lands some help. 'Not that theMinister has shown that he needs help; to

syso would he a piecee of discourtesy onmy part, hut I feel that the work that hehas to carry out is beyond the reasonablelimits; for one man.

T would express my satisfaction to theMinister in charge of civil defence, and Ihope he will continne to exercise the samebroad and liberal-minded attitude he has

exercised in the past. His is a difficult job.Fortunately for hinm some of the initialwork has been done, but we must not forgetthat a new job like his calls for special con-sideration and effort and for all those quali-ties which only a man whose heart is de-voted to the work and who has the naturalqualifications for it is likely to possess.

MR. SEWARD (i-ingelly) [5.34]: Withother members I am pleased that Parliamenthas been called together on this occasion togive members an opportunity to listen to arecital of the activities of the Governmentsince the House adjourned and a chance toadvance any criticisms or suggestionis theymay wish to advance, particularly in con-nection with the war effort. I hope thatwhen Parliament rises on this occasion itwill not adjourn until the ordinary time ofreassembly, namely about Aug-ust, fourmtonths from now. Events move very quicklyin these days. WYe all hope they may movein a way beneficial to our country. On theother hand, we have to be prepared againsttheir not doing so, and consequently itwould be a good idea if the Governmentwould give an assurance that Parliament willbe called together if only for a day or twobetween now and the ordinary assenibling-thne so that matters arising in the mean-time may be discussed and the Governmentmay give further information regarding itswar activities, which I consider are capableof being speeded up. That, however, isanticipating a debate which may take placein a day or two on the suggestion of themember for Katanning (Mr. Watts) for theappointment of committees. If that pro-posal is agreed to, as I hope it will be, therewill be no necessity for the House to hecalled together again unless some extraord-inary circumstances arise and the Govern-ment deems it necessary to summon men-hers.

In his speech the Premier defined the re-sponsibilities of the Federal and State Gov-ernments, pointing out that the FederalGovernment was responsible for matters ofdefence and foreign policy while the timeof the State Government was taken uip indealing with such matters as civil defenceand internal law and order, and so forth.Broadly speaking, one must agree that thatis so but, as I mentioned yesterday, I can-not subscribe to that policy entirely, becauseall questions, no matter whether they are

2957

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allotted by the Constitution to the Federalor the State authorities, are so intermingledwith the war effort that it is impossible tosay that this question is a State questionand that a Federal question. The StateGovernment has undertaken certain militarywork on behalf of the Commonwealth Gov-ernment, and to say that we must not criti-cise the State Government on any mattersthat arc defence problems, is wrong, be-cause the aovernmeint is intimately engagedin defence work, which is essentially a mili-tary matter, and we arc quite right in criti-cising it if criticism is merited.

The activities formerly allotted to theState-particularly matters dealt with bythe Minister for Agriculture such as theprovimion of foods tu ffs-comne under thebeading of win efforts. They arc just asintimatrely connected with the successfulwvinnitig of the war as is the production ofammunition for the troops in the firing line.I mention that because I heard the opinionexpressed a few weeks ago that there shouldhe no criticism of the State Government'sagricultural policy because agriculture isonly a minor matter compared with the wareffort. I hold that that is, not so. It isclosely intermingled with the war effort. TheMtinister for Agriculture himself pointedout how dependent are the niilitarv forces.anti the non-combatant population upon theagricultural population of the State. Theleading article in this morning's paperalluded to the astonishing fact that weshould find ourselves faced with a possible-shortage of foodstuffs. Normally it has beenthe other way about in this State. We haveproduced foodstuffs for the disposal ofwhich we have had to rely on export mar-kets. For that reason it is impossible toput the activities of the two different Qov-ernmients in any wvater-tight compartments.

The Premier, in speaking about evacua-tion of civilians, air raid shelters and so on,saqid-_

All tlhese mnatters are not nearly so irn-lsi-tant as is the successful resistance of any;ithack. We should not concentrate on suchmatter' to the exclusion of what is mostimlportnnt-resistance to the invader.That is not wholly correct because work(10110 far behind the lines-perhaps not evenin the same country as the front line-isequally important with the work going onin the front line where the attacks of thein-vader airc being resisted. I will, however,refer to that in a moment or two when I

have a word to say about civil defence. Onthis matter of civil defence we had a longand interesting statement from the Minis-ter concerned. There is not the slightestdoubt that that M1inister and the body underthe M1inister's control are doing a very bigjobs. They have had to make provisionk furevents that have never before occurred inthis country, and] much of the work being-carried out is of an exploratory kind.

It can be stated-I sincerely hope it isso-that the work of the Civil Defence Coun-cil has been placed on a far better workingbasis and that better results are being ob-tained than in the past. That the work isnot confined to the metropolitan area wasindicated by the Minister in his remarks,and it is clearly apparent that questionsthat arise in connection with civil defencein the metropolitan area are not necessarilythe same as those that affect country dis-trcts. Complet ' arraugemdnts for civildef en ce works in the country areas must bemade in ease it becomes necessary to safe-guard the interests of the population. Natur-ally that work should have been done longago. Even today no preparation has beenmade on a suitable scale for the evacuationof people from areas situated a hundred milesfrom the coast. There are rnnny people inthose parts of the State, elderly people andinvalids who, should an invasion take place,could niot be evacuated readily and for whoseremoval plans should be made ahead.

ThvnJ there are questions relating to thestorage of water supplies, the provision offoodstuffs and the accumulation of lpetrolsupplies. The last-mentioned matter wasbrought prominently under my notice by aman in the country who told wue he had re-ceived instructions that in certain eventuali-ties he was to destroy all the petrol hie hadon hand. To me that seemned a most extra-ordinary instruction because ,nIl that wasnecessary was to run the petrol fromi thebowser into drumis, and transport it furtherback to some other centre where we couldourselves umake use of it. To destroy thepetrol !-to mny mind that was a ridicu-ious suggestion. A deputation waitedupon the Gleneral Officer Commandingthe Forces in this State, and I am glad tosay that matter has been cleared tip.These are matters that require the attentionof a country division of the Civil DefenceCouncil, and I was pleased to hear the Min-ister say that a country suh-comnittcc hand

1>.W

[15 APRIL, 1942.] 25

been appointed to advise hiru and to draw up-4 plan that could be put into operationthroughout the country districts should thenecessity arise. by that means the peoplein those parts would know that in anlemergency they would have to do certainthings and what lprepatrations were necessary.

Previous speakers have mentioned thleregulation regarding the dimming of motorcar headlights. There should be some dif-ferentiation al 'lowed in that regardl. Takethe position of a (loctor in a country dis-trict who may be cailled out at night. Onec-ountry doctor tcnme to mne and said that iflie had to lIace the dimmning mnask onl hisheadlights it Would mean that lie would re-fuse to do ainy night driving. Of course todo so would be quite dangerous. Even coming(town the mnain road, we encountered a treerighit across the road, and if our lights badb'een dinyuned a smash could not haveheen avoided. Once a driver is outoif the town he should be permittedto remove the g-iiardl or at leaist be permittedto have the bearelit of half the lightavailable from his head lamps so asto enable him to drive on countr- roads insafety. That should apply especially wherethe roads are badly corrugated. Ini this re-spect I must express moy surprise that noaction has been taken inl thle metropolis toprevent private cars from being onl the roadsdluring the night. Under existing conditionsit is altogether too dangerous. How busdrivers and thosev iii charg-e of heaviervehicles get along. I do not know. One canl-not even walk Ailiig thle footpaths insafety, niuch less drive a miotor ear at night.Those who are allowed onl the road in motorears after dark should be required to pro-lute a permit enabling thern to do so. To-day I saw a bus being hauiled hlack to Perthhaving beeni apparently' smashied up in ahead-on collision with Sonlic other vehlicle.

T desire to refer once more to the neeessityfor provision of water sup~plies at Pingelly. vThe Minister for Mfines -when deal-ing with civil defence matters men-tioned that question (luring his speechtoday. Tt has been thle subject ofmuch debate locally and when 'Mr. Dumjas,shortly after hi§ a pointmllent to his presentposition, visited the locality and made a .sur~-vey of the position, we thought it wrould berectified, hu tt so far nothing has been done.However it is not that aspect to which Iwish to refer today. Abont a monthOr more ago mruitly people commenced]

to arrive in Pingelly from the more-crowded portions of thle metropolis. It soonbecame apparent that they couild not remainthere [or any lengthy period unless someadditional water supply was made available.I communicfated with the department andurgedl that water should be railed, probablyfrom Beverley, which was possibly the niear-est centre from which such supplies-couldbe drawn. I suggested that from any suchsupply forwarded by rail the people of Pill-gelly could fill up their tanks and so helptip overconme the difliculty. The niotive aetu-ating that request was that it would bepoor consolation to know that if anythingiiappened we had the Mundaring reservoirfull, while country snupplies were negligible.

Hh -dtouble arise, we could not use theMundAr'ilng su1ply with wvhiehn to replenish1111 (leplet.-d stocks. That was thle posi-tioii. At that particuilar stage the'ir'gelly' supply had become almost conm-

pletely dlepleted, and some adeqjuate provi-sioli bIweiiie essential.

I took the matter up with the department,hut unfortunately I did not then succeed ininy endeavours. The qJuestion arose as tothe paymnent for the water, which was thestumbling block. Later we made furtherrepreseniitattions with the result that a depart-mlental engineer visited Pingelly and had adfiscussion wvith representatives of the roadhoard alif others. He pointed] out, as. theMinister mentioned today, that Pingelly wasriot anl evacuation area, nor was it a quarter-ing- or billeting area. As a matter of fact,that phase did not interest us in the slight-est degree. It Perth should be bombed orain attaick should be made on our coast,pe'ople would not worn' about whether acertain country locality was a quarteringarea, a billeting area or an evacuation area.They would go anywhere that was out oftile daiicr zone. Tn the course of his re-marks the -Minister referred to Pingelly,llrookiton. and other centres as not beingevacuation areas.

We know what is likely to happen shouldan enmcrgenerv arise. No rules ever made willgovern the position then. People wouldmanke for the nearest centre they could reach.Tt was to avoid the possibility of people go-ing to places where there would be an made-(1 ilnte water snpply' that we took uip thisnestion. I gn pleased to say that we havereceived a letter f rom the 'Minister for Worksindicating that the n(eessary water supplies-

2959

2960 [ASSEMBLY.]

could be railed to Pingelly it regarded asnecessary, andl I have replied to the Ministerstating that we consider sonic such provisionas essential. Consequently we hope that itwill he provided.

The Minister for Works: I think you gota pretty full and courteous reply.

Mr. SEWARD: I have just acknowledgedthat fiaet and indicated[ that I was vecryplteased to receive the Minister's intimation,seeing that the p)rovision of water supp~lieshas become urgently necessary.

Mr. Patrick: ])espite the recent rains?Mr. SEWARDI: Yes. 1 am sorry to say

that we did not receive much as a result ofthat visitation. In the first dowvnfall we had115 points and only 30 points in the secondfall. That was sufficient to replenish thetanks for the tim- lbeing, but when I wasthere last week I found that the tanks were'-cry low onve more. The Position may berectified to a certa in extent later onl whenthe winter rains start in the middle ofMay,' but in the meantime it is necessaryto take precautionary measures, altlhoughwe stnceel v hope not. 'fhere is anotherteason why I asked for flint to he dlone: itwas to give thle Ra ilway D epartmient anl op-portunity, to cope with the trale. Ob-vionslY, it wonuld not be fair- to the railwan vsto ask them to carry water to the counitryat a time when t he' were hatrd-pressed tocope with passen.ger traflic in) the event ofany wholesale evacuation of Perth takin.-place.

On this point I have a word to say, andI an pleased that tim Minister for Rail-ways is in his seat, It' ever I saw a hope-less and chaotic scene, it was onl the Perthrailway station three or four weeks ago.The confusion was Almost indescribable. [went there to catchl a train at 20 minfl esto five, the usual Itime for the departure ofthe %lbany' train, a nd there wa s no trainat the platformi at that hour, althoug-hcrowds of people were wvaiting. I a a fewminutes a train lbacked in and everyv rail-waly official oil the platforml started to btlowa whistle and tell the people not to getin as that was not the Albany train. Pre-sently I aslced a porter what train it was,and he said it was anl Air Force specialgoing to the Eastern States. Yet it washacked into the phatformn from which theKalgoorlie and country trains etistoniarilyleave at that hour. At 10 minutes to fivethe officials got the train away. Then an-

other train backed in and more whistleswere blowvn and people were again told notto get in as that was not the Kalgoorlietrain but was the Albany train. Eventuallywe got away three-quarters of an hour late.As has been usual lately, we arrived at ourdlestiniation over an hour late. It was anlexample of shocking disorganisation, notb-iltg less, a11( a disgrace to the people coin-cerfled.

The train fromt Albany has been arriv-ig in Perth at a quarter to one or a

quarter to two, sonic three or four hourslate. I had to come Lip Onl Monday becauseI could not rely upon the punctualarrival of the Tuesday morning train'.If this is the position existing on the rail-

wsnoGod help them if anything anl-(oadhppens. Tedepartment should be

able to organise its train services better thanthat, mtid the Minister should endeavoury tosecure some improvement so that the depart-wtett might cope with the traflic. I travelledup in the Diesel on Monday and that againwas a disgrace to the department. There wastiot sitting room in the train when it drewinto Pingellr, and we picked up half-a-dozenpIs-eltgers at Brookton, more at Beverleyand more at York. People were standing inthat traini for a journey of 130 miles. Oneunfortunate womnan who wa trainsick stoodat the door throughout the whole journeyfrom Pingelly to Perth. The Railway De-partnient has been implored to make provi-sion for the travelling public and to makleavailable facilities for travel by rail, butlwvhen people want to travel, the departmentputs onl a coach to convey all the people de-sirous of travelling from Albany to Perth.To accommodate with the Diesel the numberwanting to trav'el that day was an imnpossi-bility. As onl other (lays a steam eoaehishould have been run.

The Premier: You must remember that wehave been doing a lot of work for the mili-ta ry.

Mr. SEWARD: I am well aware of that.The Premier: I do not think you are.

MrIt. SEWARD: Bitt [ am.The Premier: 1 a11 p~ositive that you are.

riot.Mr. SEWARD: As soon as I talk about

the railways, the Premier gts his back upl.One would think that the railways weresacrosainet and must not he criticised. Isay, they are a disgrace to the State and Ihave no hesitation in making that assertion.

[15 AnmL, 1942.] 2961

I make due allowance for the military traffic,but the Premier cannot brush aside the factthat a military train for the Eastern Stateswas backed into the platform from whichthe Albany and Kalgoorlie trains alwaysstart and at the hour of the day.

Hon. C. G. Lathatn: The Spirit of Pro-gress w'as 21/2 hours late recently.

Mr. SEWARD: If some mishap occurs tothe engine, or it breaks d]own, that cannothe helped, bitt three trains were required toconvey people. travelling to Albany beforeEaster and tile department expected onetrain to bring them hack. It was too mnuchto expect. A little organisation in the depart-mnent would overcome that difficulty.

Tile Premier: I will talk to you later.Mr. SEWARD: Another matter referred

to by the Premier when making his state-nent was the manufacture of munitions in

countryN districts. We have at smnall workgoing on in a garage at Pingelly and] whenit was inspected the owner was compliment-ed on his plant, which was said to be as goodan outfit as could be found in the countrydistricts. If necessary, 30 lathes could beput into that shop. The sn got a contractand is turning out 60 articles at month forthe military. I asked the muan whether hecould not turn out more, and he said hecould turn out 3100 or 400 if he could getthe facilities. I ptat the matter up to thedepartment and received it letter from thedirector saying that he did not bold out anyhope of the utilisation of small workshopsof that capacity in shifts. I hope thingswill be all right, but they are certainly notreassuring. I do not think our eneieswould he content to ase such a shop) for oneshift only. Thcy would work more than oneshift on munitions. Time after time we aretold that one of our chief troubles is lack ofmunitions, and it is time we got to work andprovided the labour and material necessaryto permit of the utilisation of all availableworkshops for a longer period than they arebeing used at present.

When the Minister for Lands was speak-ing yesterday hie referred briefly to a matterwhich T shall mention because it vitally con-cerns the farmintg population of the State.I refer to the s9tatement made by' the Minis-ter for Commerce. Mr. Scully, when address-ing an annual conference at Parkes recent]ly .He said that the Federal Government in-tended to take over the bulk handlinfr ofwheat. In dealing with this matter T am

speaking of it as it applies to WesternAustralia; the Eastern States, if theydesire it, may lplease themselves. In thefirst place, without any examination ofthe proposal, I say that I am entirelyv op-posed to it. I believe that we in WesternAtustralia can manage our own affairs verymuch better than can people located 2,000miles away in the Eastern States. I pointout that when the Australian Wheat Boardwas established, its leading officials weredrawn from the State of Western Aus-traflia. In the opinion of the Wheat Board,apparently, those men were the best quali-led to take the positions and establish thehandling of wheat throughout Atustralia.

It stands to reason, therefore that men inthis State mtust be more familiar with ourconditions than are the people livingin Melbourne or Sydney. A study of ourexperience will bear inc out in the statementthat we in Western Australia can solve ourown difficulties and handle our own troublesmuch better than anyone else can do it forus.

Why does the Federal Minister wish totake control of bulk handling? Is it be-cause of any inefficiency in the handling bythe present company? It certainly eannotbie thant. The answer to the query is containedin the report tabled in the House yesterday.In addition there is opportunity to go tothe annual meetings of the company andlaunch any criticism against the inanage-nieat, and stuch criticism has not been forth-coming to any major extent. Therefore Iclaim I am perfectly right in say' ing thatthere cannot he levelled any charget of in-efficiency against the management of thefirm in this State.

Then I ask the question, is it the desireof the Australian Wheat Board? Possiblyit is. The board may have come to that de-cision, althouigh I have seen no announce-mnent to that effect in the Press. One wouldthink that, as this is the 15th April, thedany on which the bulk handling storagecharges commence, the Wheat Board, if itdid consider that a chanige should lie made,wotuld have made an announcement to thateffect, at all events by now. I relpeat thatI have not seen any announcement to theeffect that the board desires this change. Sothat I anl forced to the conclusion that theonly reason actuating the Minister in Ilisdesire to bring about the change at thisparticular time is the plank in his Party's

(AS SEMBLY.)

platfornm for socialisation of the means ofproduction, exchange and distribution. Well,if that is the motive that is prompting theMinister, I think it extraordinary that heshould use it with this particular organi-sation. If be used it against an organisa-tion that was making large lprofits out ofthe wheatgrowers for the handling of theirproduce, or against a number of organisa-tions so acting, there would be somethingin his favour. But we remember that thereis 110 profit-making as regards bulk handling.The handling charges in this instance are thelowest in Australia, and installation costsare about a quarter of the cheapest of theother systems. For that organisation, andfor the use of those facilities, a toll ischarged; and that toll goes to the financingof further installations, of the organisationor in reduction of the capital expenditure.

I want members to realise that if effect iszri( eu to the Minister's proposals, this cozi-cern, which has been built up by the wheat-g-rowers of Western Australia, and whichwill be handed over to them in 1948, and inwhich the growers hare a sharebolding, in-terest to the extent of the amiount they havepaid into the concern during the last 10years by way of tolls, will be taken overb vthe Commonwealth Uovernmnent without anycomnpensaItion to the shareholders and with-out consent by any of them. That is a matterof very serious concern to them.

Recently I have had an interesting con-troversy on the subject with the Comumon-wealth Minister for War Organisation, andthe Commonwealth Minister for Commerce.The special subject that the controversydeailt with was ak question. I shall latermention briefly. Some of the banksin this State were closing tip in townswhere there were no other banking facili-ties. The Minister for War Organisation.stated definitely in a letter to me that thiswas not in accordance with the wishes ofthe Commonwealth Government, which didnot desire any bank to close up in any placewhere it was the only bank operating. TheMinister added that the Federal Govern-ment's objective was to close banks wherethere were five or six operating in one place.That is an exactly reversedt policy to whatthe Minister for Commerce is adopting inc-onnection with bulk handling. Had he takenaction years ago, when four or fire wheatmerchantsq were operating at every siding,with a heavy multiplication of overhead

costs, there would he some justification forhis proposal. But that defect has beenremedied, and consequlently it is diteult tounderstand the intention of the Minister totake over this concerni.

Before leavring the subject, it is hig-hlyadvisable to remind members of one veryimportant fact in connection with co-opera-tive bulk handling. It is that hulk hanidlingwas eafblished here as a handling org-anisa-tioii only. It was not established as at storagesystenm ; but it has bieen asked to opecrateas such a slystem, and it is blamned if it failsto give servie as at storage organisation. 1ami not sayingr that Bulk Handling, Ltd., i4not abhle to give the commioni facilities for-storing- wheat. l venture to stir it is givingbetter service than similar orgnisations iiiother States, or even than the bag~ system.But if there are any complaints levelled atit as a storage concern, they are not faircriticism, because as I said before, this is abundling and not a storaige concern. Thefact is one that is too Often lost sight of.

If it is claimied that the bulk handlingcompany is receiving too mulch revenue fromtthe storage charges, the reply is that it isreceivingP 11 a n red pr'ice. I would like torminnd members that when those chargeswere fixed, they' we(re fixed on therecommendation of a commnittee consisting ofState Il inisters for Agriculture from XePwSouth Wales aind Victoria, mlanagers ofelevator systems there, and], I think, Mr.Thomnson on behalf of the Australian WheatBoarid. The cha1frIes were as follow:-Handling charges, 2/ 2d. per bushiel; storagecharge, one-sixteenth of a lpenny from the15th April to the 30th September. Thatwas the charge agrev'd between these repre-sentatives, and the Wheat Board and Co-operative Bulk Handling, Ltd., acceptedthem ' In our own hulk hanulling legislation,however, the chatrges under the Act were 3d.per buishel for handling, and one-tenth ofa pe-nny per- bushel to the .90th Septemberand one halfpenny thereafter for storage.

Hoit. C. G. Latham: That commnencedl inApril.

Mr. SEWARD: No. After the .10th Sep-temlber the charge was a9 hlfpeniny perbushel. Now the main objective of a bulkhandling organisation is to pass on thedistribution of the wheat from the first re-cipt of it right on to its final destination assoon as it caii be done. There was alsothe desire to clear all the bins in time to per-

[15 APRIL, 1942.1

init those bins to lie fumigated before thearrival of the next harvest. Thus, if anystoppage takes place to prevent the elearin.-of those bins, there is going to be an accuum-lation of storage charges which may benefitthe company, but which would be an addi-tional cost to the wbeatgrowers. I donot think it can be said that any stoppage has,taken place in this State onl that account.Our bins have all been cleared in time toreceive the next season's wheat. When inVictoria a serious stoppage did occur, be-cause of somne failure to erect emergencybins, I understand that millions of bushelsof wheat were standing out in paddoeks intihe rain, and in seeond-hand bags. As aconsequence the Victorian farmers raised aloud outcry, aind I am afraid it "'as thatwhich influenced the Minister iii his desire totake over the bulk handling organisation.

As a matter of fact, the Premier recentlydrew attention to the inadvisability of bring-ig all the wheat down and storing it here,

near the city of Perth. The hon. gentleniansug-gested that it would be preferable to havethe wheat stored in country towns. I de-sire to point out to the Premier that in 1930.Jusat after the declaration of war, a surveywas mande in Western Australia by the rail-way engineers, the State Superintenldent ofthe Wheat Board, and the officers of BulkHandling, Ltd., who inslpectedl sites atSplencer's, Brook and] submitted a plan tobuild emergency depots at Spencer's Brook,Mullewa, Oloomalling, Narrogin, Wagin andIXatanning. That pii was forwarded to thleWheat Board in Melbourne in November,1939, less than two months after wvar brokeout, and I understand that it has been poszt-ponled and postponed every time it -wasbrought forward, with the result that it has.-never been put into operation. Had the planbeen carried out as recommended bythose muen, we would have had this emer-gency storage and the wheat could have beentaken out of country' bins, where it had topay storage charges, and been placed incostless emergency bins. Therefore no ac-cusation of desiring to profit by storagecharge ca eladaainst Co-operativeBulk Handling, Ltd.

Under existing arrangements, Co-opera-tive Bulk Handling controls the wheathandling system in Western Australia forand on behalf of the farmers, who arc, orwill he in 1948, the ownrs of the organi-sation, Each year wheaterowers4 pay a tollof five-eighthis of a penny per bnshel: and

that money, in terms of the deed of trustcatered int0 by thle trustees, can only beused in building extensions, of the system orin reduction of capital expenditure. So thatwhen we reach 1948 the concern will be freeof any charge and will be handed over tothe farmers a s an asset. The cardinal pointwhich has to be remembered is that the sys-tern, under the present arrangement, isowned and controlled by the Western Aus-tralian company in which Western Austra-lian whcatgrowers are the shareholders; butif the 'Minister's proposals, come into forceand hef takes over the system, either by hireor any other arrangemnit, then the controlwill go out (if Western Alustralia and he inthe Eastern States: and anyv inefficient man-agenient which might seriously affect thecomlpany alid for which the local companywould have no responsibility and no chanceof objecting to, might ruin the whole show;and the assets of those people, who have beenpaying tolls all these years, would] be wipedOut. That wouild be a very serious matter forthe people who have paid the tolls for thepast ten. years and who will continue to doso in the future. T sincerely hope that therepresentations of the Minister for Lands-will receive the attention they deserve andthat, as far as Western Australia is con-cerned, no alteration will be made in thepresent system.

There is another serious aspect of thismatter. I remind members that while Co-operative Builk Handling here dlid not easta very great deal of money to establish,some of the other organisations in theEastern States hare cost a considerableamouint. For instance, in New South Wales,the system has a capacity of 24,278,000bushels, that is, the country elevators, whilethle terminals have a capacity of 8,300,000,or a total of 32,578,000 bushels. The costof that was £C5,000,000. 'In Victoria, thetotal capacity is 14,280,000 bushels, and thecapital cost for the completed section is£1,500,000. In Western Australia, however,the total capacity is 30,000,000 buishels, whilethe cost is only £036,000. Now, wheat-growers have been paying charges ona tiniform basis throughout Australia. Ifan alteration is to be made, as suggested bythe Minister, it will mean that the WesternAustralian growers will pay a. proportion ofthe more costly running of the installa-tions in the Eastern States, while theEastern States growers will get the benefit

2~ti4[ASSEMBLY.]

(of the miore economical Western Australiansystem. Therefore, itf the suggestion ofthe M1inister is adopted, it will mean. thatthe Western Australian growers. will bepaying part of the dearer charges of thesyvstems in the Eastern States, -while the

goesthere will get the benefit of our~iiore economical organisation.

A matter that has been receiving a veryconsiderable amount of publicity againstCo-operative Bulk Handling in this State isweevil infestation. I desire briefly to re-ter to it and give a few facts regarding it,because much of the criticism is notfounded on particularly sound ground. Itis mostly designed, I think, to engender afeeling of dissatisfaction with or hostilityto (Co-operative Bulk Handling. Certain

eolde caie here to inake an inve.tigationof wheat stored in the bulk bins, in orderto ascertain what effect the weevil washaving uipon it. Mr. Wilson, a chemist ofthe C.I1,reported as follows-

Without doubt the weevil problem in West-fcrn Australia is alreadly serious. At Gerald-ton and rrenintle there are already vast ricein evil anid lesser grain borer infestations inthe biulkheadls (depots) aind even more severeinfestations in the Government Store and the(tO.R. bulkheads. Ta Bunhury the onlyireavyv infestation is in the concrete silo.

Air. l'errett, thok secretary of the Austra-lian Wheat Board reported:

The pirocess of screening and turning willhave to he repeated ce six weeks or so tokeep the trouble in some degree in check, butthis is only a palliative and merely postponlesthe worst effects of infestation. The lossesfrom) weevil, already considerable, will cumn-hativ'ely inc-rease, notwithstanding this treat-11ii,1t

Mr. (Cameron, or Dreyfus and Co., r--pirl ed:

Wheat in bulkhead in large concentratedgranaries (i.e., upj to 4.000,000-bushel bins)in Western Australia makes a satisfactorymethod of treatment to combat weevil ex--eedingly difficult, and Unless the CSIRadvisers have sonmc satisfactory method oftreatment, I (io not think it wise to continueto receive such large quantities in bulk underlte present system. The present conditionof -the wheat in Western Australia compelsme to express the opinion that there is aserious position existing, and unliess checktedwill certainly result in disastrons losses.

"Mr. Tilt. anotbei nienmber of the Austra-Tiani Wheat Board, reported :

Wlhiltt it is limosiblc to find some weevilaln'ost anyirhere in Western Australian, onlya -mall percentage of wheat is weevil bitten.

Even the 1939-10 season's wheat is in goodcondition and app~earm to have carriedthrough last summer without any materialdeteriorationi.

Mr. Haiblin, another member of theAustralian Wheat Board, reported:

An inspection of the various bulkheads orbulk depots shows that the wheat, generallys~peaking, is in good order.

Those are the reports of the gentlemenwho made the examination. I want now togive mnembers the facts of the case,

One of the principal depots referred toby the above critics is the bulkhead knownas C.041. at Fremantle, which has acapacity of 4,000,001) bushels. Intothis bulkhiead was placed for stor-age from July, 1940, onwards, 106,931;tons of wheat of the season 1989-40.Ini other words, this wheat has been storedfor nearly two years in this location, andhas been, left undisturbed over that period.previous to its arrival at this depot, it hadbeen stored in country bins f or sevenmionths. This bin has now been almostcompletely cleaned out by shipping thewheat away. Calculated on the intakeweight, 09.7 per cent. has already gone outas f.a.q. under rigid departmental scrutiny.Dust and] weevils passed through thescreens equal .15 per cent., and sweepingssold, .02 per cent. Damaged wheatfor sale to the produce trade wasapproximately 315 per cent, to .2 percent., on which weighing operations areproceeding. The wheat in this shed didnot incur any cost whatever for turning- Ifwe assume the value of wheat at 4s. 2d.per bushel and allow all the wheat, otherthan fa.q., to be a dead loss, which is notthe case, the average loss by -weevil in-festation in this, the first of the big shedsto be cleaned uip, is less than one-seventhof one penny per busqhel. In other wordls,the loss is less than would be the cost ofone turning operation, which is one-sixthof a penny. In that respect, I have in-formiation to the effect that 600,000 bags of,wheat were bagged out of that bin, notOne of which was declared by the examinerfor the Department of Agriculture to benot f.s. That rather effectively disposesof the statement about weevil destruction.

The Minister for Works: The wheat wastwo years old before it was bagged?

Mr. SEWARD: That is so. I must refer,as briefly as; T can, to the position of theagricultural indus~try. Yesterday I had at

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(16 APRIL, 1,942.]

qflestion on the notice paper with regardto it. The matter is so serious to the coun-try districts that I must crave the indul-genee of the House to bring it before mnem-bers. As has been admitted, the first dutyof a farmer is to produce wheat, or what-ever other product is grown in hi's district.That is necessary for our war effort, andit is also necessary to enable thle farmer tonieet his commitments.

Leatte to Continue.THE PREI R (lion. J. C. Wilcok-

Ueraldton) [6.19] : 1 move:-That the honl. member lie granted leave to

conltinue his speech at the next sitting.

Motion put and passed.

House adjourned at 6.20 p.m.

Ilegislative CLouncil.Thursday, 16th April, 1942.

Question: Transport, as to overloadingMotions: Industries Assistance Act, to disallow

regulation .. - .. .. ..Pi'rnting Ministerial statement, as to Staoes War

Licensing Act, as to restrictions on sale of liquor

The PRESIDENT took the Chair11 a.m., and read prayers.

QUESTION-TRANSPORT.

As to Overloading.

2W65

20762903

Hion. J. A. DIMMITT asked the ChiefSecretary: 1, Is the G~overnment aware thatresidents in the vicinity of the Canninghighway and the area. served by the SouthPerth tramways are being subjected to con-tinued inconvenience owing to the itnsefficient,and overloading of, existing bus service?2, When will the Government ptut into ser-vre the buses which were pronmised for thePerth-Coajo routeI

The CHIEF SECRETARY replied: 1,Yesi. 2, As sooni as staff is available tooper-ate them.

1104]

NOTION-INDUSTRIES ASSISTANCEACT.

To Disallow Regulation.

Debate resumed from the previous day onthe following motion by Hon. G. B. Wood(East) :

That Regulation 6 inade under the Ind us-tries Assistance Act, 19)15-1940, as published11L the "Government Gazette" on the 13thday of February, 1042, and lad ou. the Tableof the House on the 9th day of April, 1942,be amid is hereby disallowed.

THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. W.II. Kitson-West) [11.5]: Onl a previousoccasion when a motion was successfullymnovel for the disallowance of a regulationdealing with the question of drought relief,eonipaints were wade that there had beencons iderable delay in regard to the framingof the regulation. Mfembers will no doubtrecollect that when I replied to thle motiononl that partiecular oceasion I stated verydefinitely that the delay arose from thle factthat the ('ommtonwealth Government had notmade known the rate of interest that wouldapply to this particular amnount of money.There has been a further delay' and it isonly within recent weeks; that we bave beenadvised hr the Commnonwealth Government ofthe rate of interest that is to ap])ly, . Thlerate chtarged isy the Commonwealth Govern-meat to the State is 3 per cent. Conse-qitemtly, it was considered desirable that, be-fore, anly fresh reLgulaftioni Was made, infor-mation should he obtained and that accountsfor the delayv that has taken% place betweenthe time the original reguilat ion was dis-allowed by this House and the promulgationof tile regula11tionl that Mr. w~oodl now de-sines to have disallowed.

Members are aware tlat thle Conditionslaid down in regard to this money providethat for the first year any advaince made toa farmer shall be free of interest mid thatfor the succeedinig six years,, if the motley isstill owing, the rate of interest paid bythe farmer~ shall be half thle rate paid bythe State Government to thle Commonwealth.Therefore, those farmer-s will l)C called upo)n1to pay a rate of inter-est of 11/ per cent. Iti4 Trther important we should bear that inmind because Mr. Wood. in moving for thedisallowance of this regnlation on this occa-sion did not go into any particular detail inregardl to the reason for disallowance otherthan to make one or two brief statementsa1nd refer to uttterances by somebody else-