144- what breath acetone can tell you about fat burning ...€¦ · absolutely love their wines and...

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Episode144:WhatBreathAcetoneCanTellYouAboutFatBurning,Metabolism&Inflammation


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyDryFarmWines.ThisistheonlywineIdrinkanymore.Afterresearchingandfindingthatmanyotherwinescontainaddedsugar,dyeslikeultravita-megapurpleandfilteringagentsincludingfishwaters,eggwhitesandsomeotherunsavoryingredients.Andthingslikesawdusttoimprovethetaste.ButtheDryFarmpartisimportanttoo.Whatthismeansisthatthegrapesarenotirrigated.Withoutthewater,theydon’tgetasbigorassweet,yieldinghighernutrientandloweralcoholwinesnaturally.Theirwinesarelabtestedforpurityandtomakesurethattheyarefreeofeventraceamountsofpesticidesandherbicides.Andtheyareallsourcedfromsmallfamilydryfarmvineyardsallovertheworld.IabsolutelylovetheirwinesandIfindthemtobelessexpensivethanotherhigh-qualitywines.AndWellnessMamalistenerscangetanextrabottleofwineforapennyatwellnessmama.com/go/wine.

ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyPaleovalley.Ifyouhavenottriedthese,they’reawesome.Theymakegrass-fed,naturallyfermentedbeefandnowpasturedturkeysticksthatarehighinproteinandnutrientsandalsoagoodsourceofprobioticsbecausethey’renaturallyfermented.Andthey’reshelfstablesoyoudon’thavetokeepthemrefrigerated.Webringthesealongwheneverwetravelandourkidslovethemalltimeaspartofanon-the-gomeal.IbringthemwheneverItravelbecausetheysavemesomanytimesfromairportfood.AndWellnessMamalistenerscanget20%offofanyorderatwellnessmama.com/go/paleovalley.

Katie:Hi,andwelcometothe"HealthyMomsPodcast."I'mKatiefromwellnessmama.com.AndIamheretodaywithJoeAnderson.It'sgonnabeafascinatingconversationbecausehehasover20yearsofexperienceinpulmonaryphysiologyandbreathresearchscience.He'stheownerofAndersonBioscience,isanaffiliatefacultymemberattheDepartmentofBioengineeringattheUniversityofWashingtonwherehehasaPhDinChemicalEngineering.He'spublishedover40peer-reviewedpublicationssohe'snostrangertothisscience,andhe'sworkingwithanewcompanythatI'vebeeninvolvedwithcalledLEVL.I'vebeenusingtheirdevicetounderstandketosisinhealthanddiseaseandhowmeasurementofbreathacetonecanhelpindividualsbettermanagetheirhealthandwellness.Ithinkit'sgonnabeareallyenlighteningepisode.Welcome,Joe,andthanksforbeinghere.Joe:Yeah,thankyouforhavingme.Katie:SoIthinkmyaudienceisprettywellinformed,butforthosewhoaren'tquitefamiliar,I'dlovetostartatthebeginning.Canyoukindofjustdefinewhatketosisisforus,becauseIknowwe'regoingtothrowthattermaround.Joe:Yeah,certainly,ketosisistheideathatyourbody'sburningfat,andpartofthatfatwhatwe'dcallfatmetabolism,someofthatfat'sbeingconvertedintothesechemicalscalledketonebodies.Andketosisisawaytokindofmonitoranddescribehowmanyofthoseketonebodiesareinyourbody,inyourblood,andinyourbrainetc.Sothat'salotofinformationthere.I'msureweneedtounpackalittlebitofthat.Katie:IwasgonnasayIknowthisisareallypopulartermrightnow,andtherearetonsofresourcesI'mseeingpopuponlineaboutketosisandhowit'sbeneficial.Butsolikeyoujustexplainedprettymuchifyourbody'sburningfatwhichmostpeoplewillwanttoburnfat,atleastsomeofthetime,thenyou'retechnicallyinketosis.Socanyouexplainkindofwhatthedifferenceisandthetypesofketosisareandtheonesthatwouldbemorecommon,versusmoreextreme,Iguess?


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Joe:Sure,andmaybetoeventakeastepbackifyoudon'tmindis,youknow,there'sthismovementtowardsunderstandingthatmaybeit'sthesugarsthataren'tthebestforus.Thatinfact,ourkindofabolitionoffatmaybewasthewrongidea,andmaybeweshouldreallybecuttingbackoursugars,increasingourfatintake.Theideathatperhapsit'sthesugarsthatareactuallycausingtheinflammation,andcausingsomeofthesystemicfailureswe'reseeingwithsomemedicalconditions.Soifyoutakeaholdofthatperspectiveandthescienceseemstobestartingtosupportthatideathatthesugarsandelevatingalotofthesugarsinyourbodyreallyisnotthebestidea,thenyouwannabeburningmorefat.Andthat'swhywegettothisideaofhowcanyoutellifyou'reelevatingyourfatmetabolism?Howcanyoutellifyou'returningonthatelevationfatmetabolism?That'swheretheketosiscomesin.Soonceagain,totakeastepback.Therewasastudydoneabout30yearsagocomingoutofAbbottLaboratorieswheretheyshowedthatpeoplewhowantedtolosebodyfatjustonanaturalstandardAmericandiet,well-mixedbuttheyrestrictedthecalories,theycuttheircaloriesprobablyinhalfofwhattheywouldtypicallyneed.Whattheysawisthosefolkswhodidthatandwhowerelosingfatmass,theyincreasedtheirketonebodies,inthiscase,acetoneintheirexhaledbreath.SothereasonIbringthatupisevenifyou'rejusteatingyournormalstandardAmericandiet,butyou'regonnacutbackcalories,youcangetintoastateofketosis.Infact,nomatterwhatyou'redoingwe'reallinsomesortofstateofketosis.Meaningwe'reallburningsomefatandsomeofthatfat'sbeingconvertedtotheseketonebodies,andsoeveryone'sinthestateandwhatIwouldtermabasalstateofketosis.Katie:Yeah,that'sfascinating.Sojustchangingyourdietevenalittlecangetyouintoketosis,evenjustreducingcalories.AndIknowthere'salotofdataoutthereaboutthebenefitsofcaloricrestrictionoverthelongtermforlongevity,andhowlikefastingcanplayintothat,ordifferentdietarychanges.Butwhatotherthingscancomeintoplayhere?Andwhenyou'retalkingaboutcaloricrestriction.Iwould'veguessedthemorecaloricrestrictionthemoreadvancedtheketosisthathappens,orwhat'sthatrelationshipthere?Joe:Yeah,absolutely.Andthat'sagreatpointiswhatI'mkindahearingyousayis,youknow,whatistherangeofketosis?And,youknow,onethingIforgottosayistherearehopefullysomepeoplearesaying,"Well,whydoesyourbodybothermakingtheseotherchemicals?Whywouldyouburnfattomakeanotherchemicalthatseemsuseless?"Whichwouldbeagreatquestion.Sowhathappenedandyoucanthinkyearsandyearsagowhenwedidn'thavemealseverysingleday,youhadtogooutandscavengeormaybeyoukilledananimalandyouate,andyoumayhavetowaitafewdays,right?Sowhathappensinthatscenarioisyourbodydoesn'thavesugar,becauseyourbodyburnsthatoutfairlyquicklyandyourbrainisreallyreliantonsugar.Sothesugarisgonefromthesystem,thenyouneedsomethingtofeedyourbrainandthebraincan'tmetabolizefat.Sowhathappensisyourbodyconvertsthefatintotheseketonebodiesthatfeedsthebrain.Sowe'rereallypiggybackingoffthislongusedbiologythatwe'vekindofneglectedduetoourcurrentwaysofliving,andconstantintakeoffood.Thatifyouconvert...Youmoveawayfromsugarsandstartusingmorefats,someofthosefatsaregonnabeconvertedtofuelforyourbrain,right?Andsoyourquestionwas,whatistherangeofketonebodies?What'stherangeofthisketosisorthisfatmetabolismelevated?Well,thewayIliketothinkofitisintermsofbreathacetone,becauseI'mworkingwithacompanycalledLEVLthat'screatedadevicetomeasurebreathacetone.Breathacetoneisanindicationof


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ketosis.It'sactuallyoneofthoseketonechemicals,ketonebodies.Weallhaveaboutonepartpermillionofketonesorofacetoneonourbreath,andthat'swhyIcallitkindofabasallevelofketosis.Now,ifyoucancrankupyourketosisevenmildly,justbycuttingbackyourcalorieslikewetalkedabout,maybeinsteadof2,000caloriesaday,youcutoutto1,000.Youcanincreasebreathacetonetomaybe10partspermillion,right?Eightto10partspermillion,soit'sareasonableincrease.NowIthinkoneoftheotherthingsyoumentionedifyoudosomethingdifferent,let'ssayyoucutbackallyourcalories,youfast.AndlikeIjuststated,youknow,500yearsago,1,000yearsagowhenpeople...thefoodwasn'tasabundant,thatwouldbehappeningprobablyeveryweek.You'dbefastingforafewdayslookingforyournextmeal.Whenyoufastyoucancrankupyourbreathacetonebetween10and100partspermillion.Andtheseareallfromscientificstudies.Wepublishedastudyin"Obesity"whichisajournalreviewingthisscience.Theotherwayyoucangetitbetween10and100partspermillionisbyjusteatinghigherlevelsoffattoreallycuttingbackyoursugarintake,yourcarbohydrateintaketo,youknow,lessthan50gramsmaybe25gramsofsugaraday,andthat'sreallyasmallportion.You'retalkingaroundateaspoonofsugarwhenyouthinkaboutit.Now,soyoucanelevateyourketonebodiesalmostahundredfold.Stillbehealthy,stillbeprobablyevenmorealertbecausethoseketonebodiesaregreatfuelforthebrain.Someofyouareprobablymedicalfolksandyourealize,"Man,Irememberhearingaboutacetoneandthebreathandthat'sanindicationofsomethinglikediabeticketoacidosis."Well,that'struebutthatreallyhappensinatotallydifferentrange.We'retalkingprobably300partspermillionofacetoneto1,250partspermillionofacetone.Soyou'retalkingalmostathousandfoldhigherthanwhatweallhave,justkindofsittinghereeatingourstandardAmericandiet.Sothosearekindoftheranges.Oneisthebasal,oneto10isjustsomecalorie,mildcalorierestriction,10to100partspermillionofacetoneinthebreath,fastingorverylowsugarintake.Andthen,youknow,above100you'retalking300to1,250,that'sdiabeticketoacidosis.Thatobviouslycomeswithothercomplicationsthataremedicallyrelated.Katie:Thatmakessense.Soaretherebenefitstodifferentlevelsofketosis?Andobviously,Iwouldguessit'sdangerousatthepointwhenyou'rehittingthediabeticketoacidosislevel.Butbeforethataretherebenefitsatcertainlevelsthatarekindofasweetspot?Joe:Yeah,therearecertainlybenefitstoelevatingyourketonebodies.Oneofthemisareductionpotentiallyaninflammation.There'ssomedatacomingoutthatseemstoindicatethatinthemitochondriaofthecell.Themitochondriaisthatpowerplantofthecellthatconvertsnutrientsintoenergythatyourcellcanuse.Thatinthatmitochondria,theinflammationisdecreased.Youcanalsothinkthatifyougetintoelevatedlevelsofketosis,thereasonthat'shappeningisyou'recuttingoutthesugar.Soyou'regonnareducesomeoftheinflammationpotentiallyinthearterialwalls.Youalsoaregoingtoreducesugarwhichisgoingtoreducetheinsulinresponse.Insulinisthechemicalinyourbodythattellssugartogointothecells,withoutinsulinthesugarjustkeepscirculatinginthebloodandcausesquiteabitofdamage,andleadstothediabeteswe'retalkingabout.Soreductionofinsulincanbeverybeneficial,andthereasonthatis,iswhenyouareconstantlypumpingoutinsulin,yourcellscandesensitizetothatinsulin,andwithtimecanbeaprecursortothetype2diabetes.Sothatcouldbeanotherone.


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Theotherpieceoftheketosissidewiththeelevationoftheseketonebodies,wouldbebrainfuel.Andthere'ssomenicestudiesshowingthattheketosis,theketonebodiesaregreatbrainfuel.Andactuallyalotofpeoplesaywhentheygettheseelevatedlevelsofketosis,andthatwouldprobablybeinthe10to100partspermillionofacetone,andwemaybewanttotalkaboutthebloodsidetoo,theketonesthatareinthebloodthattheygetbetteralertness,bettermentalfunction.Andthenthefinalthingispotentiallythiselevatedlevelofketosiscanbetherapeutic,andperhapswe'lltalkaboutthat,helpingmaybereversesomesortofdiseasesandalsostavingoffotherdiseasesaswell.Katie:It'ssofascinating.AndIcanatleastpersonallyspeaktothebrainbenefits,likeI'venoticedandIknowalotofpeoplewhofastorenterketosisonpurpose,notevenforlikethehealthbenefitsomuchasthebrainbenefits.Andit'sliketrulyit'saverycleanfuelforyourbrainfromwhatI'veread,andIcertainlynoticethedifferencewhenI'veexperimentedwithketosis.ButIthinkwearereferringtowiththestudies,I'dlovetogoalittledeeperbecauseI'mkindofanerdinthatIlovetojustscrollthroughmedicaljournalsandseewhatthelatestresearchcomingout.AndI'veseenquiteafewandmetsomeresearcherslatelytalkingaboutketosisandfastinginpotentialcancerresearch,evenbeingabletoreducechemotherapylevelswithketosisanddifferenttherapieslikethat.SoI'dlovetoknowifyou'veresearchedthataswellandwhatyouropinionis.Joe:Yeah,certainly.Wekindoflookattheketosis,kindof,threedifferentways,atleastfromtheLEVLviewpoint.Wehavethewayofketosisisgreattomonitoryourfatloss,right?Soyouwannalose...Thisiswhatwehave.Inourcompanywehavemyself,middle-agedfolks,metabolismisslowed,we'regainingafewextrapounds.Howcanwegetthosepoundsoffwithoutgoingtoocrazy?Well,theLEVLdevicehelpsyoumeasureyourfatmetabolism,right?Sofatlossisagreatone.Andtheothersideofitistochangeyourdietcompletelyor,youknow,ormaybenotovernightbutwithsometimeandreallystarttocutbackthesugar,soyou'regettingtheketosisorketogenicdiet,thosesortsofdiets.Now,thethirdoneiswhatyoutalkedaboutistryingtousetheelevatedketonebodiesfortherapeuticuses,right?AndwhatImeanbytherapeuticusesisthere'swe'vegonethroughtheliterature,andkindofoutlinedaboutIthink8to10differentplaceswhereelevatedketonebodiesorlifestylesthatleadtoelevatedketonebodiescanreversediseases.Forexample,type-2diabetes.There'sanicecompanyouttherecalledVerdantTherapeuticsthat'sreversingtype2diabetesbyhavingpeoplecutoutthesugars,goingonaketogenicdiet.Andwhathappens,ifyouremembersometimespeoplecalltype2diabetessugardiabetes,isyourbodydropsitsinsulinproductionanditallowsyourcellstoresensitizetoinsulin,anditusesfatforthefuel.Andsoinsteadofyourbodyhavingtomanagewheresugarisgoingandthedamagethatpotentiallysugariscausingtoit,fatsfillingthebodyandyoucanreversequiteafewofthosesymptomsoftype2diabetes.Theotheronesarelikewetalkedaboutsomebrainfunction.Differentmental,Iguess,youcouldcall'emmentaldiseases,whetherit'sjustmilddementia,Alzheimer's,Parkinson's.Thosearethoughttobeaconsequenceofpoorutilizationofsugarinthebrain.Cancer'sanotherone.Onceagainandwecangointosomedetailonthisobvious,butcancer,there'sbeenahypothesisforabouta100yearscalledtheWarburgEffect,thatcancerisdrivenbysugarmetabolism,andtwothingsarehappening.Numberone,thesugarisfeedingthecancerbutalsosugariselevatinginsulininyourblood,whichisthesignalforthecancercellstocontinuetoreproduceandgrowfaster.Sotheideaiscutthesugarout.You'regonnaelevateyourfatmetabolism.You'regonnaelevateyourketonebodies.Thecancercannotusetheketonebodiesbecausetheyhaveadysfunctionalabilitytometabolizefatsandketonebodies,andsothesurroundingcells,thehealthycellsuseitbutyouessentiallystarvethosecancercells.Andnowyoumaynot


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kill'emalloff,butlikeyousaid,ifyouweretofastandyoustarttodesensitizethosecancercellsandyoustarttostarvethem,thenwhenyouhitthemwiththechemotherapeutic,andpotentiallyitcouldbealesserdose,potentially,orradiationtherapythenyoumaybeabletokillmoreofthemmoreeffectivelywithoutthesideeffects.Andsomeofthethoughtprocessesistheketonebodiesfeedingthosehealthycells,whenyouhitthewholebodywiththechemotherapeuticortheradiation,thosehealthycellsareactuallymoreprotectedduetometabolizingthefatandtheketonebodiespriortothetherapeuticdose.Sohopefully,thatgivesyousomeperspective.Asyoumayknow,somefolksmayknowthatthey'veusedthisketogenicdietforepileptics,peoplewithepilepsy.Andwhatthey'veshown,they'veknownaboutthisforcloseto100years,isthatpeopleonaketogenicdiet,theirnumberofseizuresandeventshavegonedowndramatically50%,maybe90%dependingonthepopulationsofkidsoradults,andcanreallyreversethesymptomsofepilepsy.Katie:Thatwasactuallymyfirstexposuretowhatketosiswas,isachildhoodfriendwithepilepsy,andmyfriendcouldnothaveanykindofcarbohydratesatall,andwasonanextremelyketogenicdiet.AndIdidn'treallythinkofitmuchatthetime,butwhenIstartedseeingthisresearchitkindofcamebacktoandIwaslike,"Oh,wow."Theyreallyhaveknownaboutthisforalongtime.It'snotsomelikenewfadthatwe'rejustfiguringout.Isthereapointwherelike,canyougettoomuchofagoodthing,Iguess?Likeisthereapointwhenyouneedtoaddbackincarbs?Iknowthere'salotofpeoplewhorecommendcyclingoroccasionallyspikingcarbohydrates.Haveyouseenanyresearchonthatonewayortheother?Joe:Andhereagain,justto...wanttotakeastepback.Ithinksomeofthisresearchisstillnotnecessarilynew,butwe'restartingtodevelopsomeoftheseareas.Soweknowthattheketogenicdietcanbegood,right?Thequestionis,isitgoodforeveryone?AndIthinkthere'ssomestudiescomingoutlookingatdifferentdietsandgenetics,sodependingonyourgeneticprofileonestyleofdietmaybemorepreferentialforyouthanothers.Sotogettoyourpointisdoyoustayonitforeverordoyoucycleinandout?Ithinkit'sgonnadependontheindividual,andIthinktherewillhavetobealittlebitofexperimentationperindividualtosee,youknow,maybeyoustayonitforaweek,ormaybedosomeintermittentfastingandyoucutbackyoursugar,ormaybeyoucangoinandout.Ithinkit'sgoingtodependonsomeofthelifestylechoices,someofthegeneticfactors.Somepeoplesimplycan'tdoitbecausethewaytheywork,andthey'reflyingallovertheplace.SoIknowthat'snottheanswermaybeyouwant,butIdothinkthatit'sgoingtobealittlebittailoredpertheindividual.Katie:No,thatmakessense.Andyoumentionedgoinginandoutofketosis.I'mcuriousdoesittakeawhileespeciallyifyou'renotreallyusedtobeinginketosisforyourbodytokindofgetintothatgroove?Becauseitseemslikealotofpeopleiftheyjustcutthecarbstocold-turkey,theytendtoexperiencesomeuncomfortablesymptomsforafewdays,andthenthey'llseetheketones.Haveyouseenthat?Joe:Yeah,alotofpeopletermthattheketoflu,soyoucutbackthesugars.Andrememberwhenyou'recuttingbackthesugars,oneofthethingsyou'regonnasee,andalotofpeopleseethiswhentheyfirstgoonadiet,isyoustarttourinate,youstarttogetridofalotofthewater.Sugarneedswaterforstorage,right?Fatdoesn't.Fat,youknow,oilsdon'tlikewater.Sooneofthethingsthathappenswhenyoustarttourinateout,youmayurinateoutsomeofthecalcium,andsodium,andpotassium.Andsoyoumaygetsomeofthisflu-likesymptoms.Andalotofpeoplecanmanagethatjustbydrinkingsomebonebroththathassomeofthosechemicalsinittorelieveit.


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So,certainlyIthinkwhatI'veheardandI'veexperiencedsome,isthefirsttimeyougointoketosisorthefirsttimeyoufastisthetoughest,butthere'ssomememorywhichI'mnotsurehowthatis.Buteachtimeyoudoitagain,forexample,eachtimeyoufastagain,itgetsalittlebiteasier.SoIwouldsaythemoreyoudoittheeasierit'sgonnabecome.Katie:Thatmakessense.I'mcurioushowexerciseplaysintothisequationofketosisandfatloss,andfatmetabolismandevenbreathacetone.Doesexercisemakeadifferencethere?Joe:Yeah,itcertainlydoes.There'sacoupledifferentthingswhenyou'retalkingabouttheketonelevels.Andbytheway,maybeIwanttomaybeIshouldtakeastepbackbecauseIdidn'tsaythisupfront.Whenwe'retalkingaboutketosis,we'rereallytalkingaboutthreeketonebodies.Sowhenyourfatleavesthefatcell,getsintothecirculation,andfinallyhitstheliver,that'swherethefatisconvertedintothesechemicalscalledketonebodies.Themotherketonebodyisacetoacetate,andIapologizeforthebignamesbutthat'sjustsimplywhatwecallit.Theacetoacetatecangetinterconverted,meaningbackandforthbetweenachemicalcalledbeta-hydroxybutyrate.Bothofthosechemicals,theacetoacetate,beta-hydroxybutyrate,they'reonlyfoundinthebloodorintheurineandit'sjustbecausethey'retoobig.Theycan'tevaporateorwhatwecallvolatilize.Acetoacetatealsoconvertsonewayintoacetone,soonceitgetsconvertedintoacetateitdoesn'tconvertbacktoacetoacetate.Andacetoneissmallsothatwhenacetoneinthebloodsupplypassesthroughthelungs,itcancomeoutintheairandthenoutintoyourexhaledbreathsowecanmeasureitthere.Sowhatcanaffectthelevelsofthoseketonebodies?Wetalkedaboutnutrition,right?Acoupleoftheotheronesthatarefactorswouldbeexercise,right?Soifyouexerciseforalongperiodoftimeatamoderaterate,youcanincreaseyourfatmetabolism.Youstartburningmorefat.Thatwillshowupinexhaledbreathacetoneaswellasmeasurementsoftheseketonebodiesinyourbloodandyoururine.Twootheronesthatwetypicallythinkareprettyimportantaresleepandstress.Soifyou'renotsleepingwell,youcanchangeyourbody'smetabolism.Onestudyshowedanditwasaninterestingstudyabout,Ialmostthinkit'sabout10yearsagoshowingthattheketonelevelsrisethroughoutsleep.Particularlyyourbreathacetonerisesthroughoutsleep,anditrisesmoreinpeoplewhohavedeepersleep.Anditwasasmallstudyandasmalldataset,butthatwasinterestingtome.Thentheotheroneisthestresspiece,andthatcanreallyaffectthelevelsofketonebodies,becauseitreallycanmessupyourmetabolism.Theotherthingthat'sinterestingisthatwhatwetypicallyseeinthescientificliterature,isthatwomenhavehigherketonelevelsthanmenforagivenfastingperiodetc.Andthatseemstobeindicativeofdifferenthormonaldistributionsbetweenthemenandthewomen.Andsowhenyousaythatthenthatkindofleadsintothefactofthatwomenwillhavedifferentlevelsofketonebodiesbasedofftheirhormonalcycles,orotherhormonalthingsthataregoingon.Katie:That'sreallyinteresting,butitmakescompletesense.SoI'mcuriousbecauseIknowthere'sseveralwaysyoucanmeasureifyourbody'sinketosis.AndI'veseenlike,forinstance,likebloodmetersthatwouldbedifferentthanliketheLEVLdevice.Canyoutalkaboutthedifferencesinthosemeasurementsandlikedotheytendtomatchup?Aretheyallaccurate?Orwhatarethedifferences?Joe:Yeah,that'sagreatquestion.SolikeIsaidthreedifferentketonebodies.There'sacetoacetate,beta-


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hydroxybutyrate,andthenacetone.Andeachonereallyfortheconsumerismeasuredinadifferentfluid.Let'sstartwiththeonethatIthinkistheworst,andIthinkprobablymostscientistswouldagreewithmeonthisonewithoutadoubt,isthatmeasuringketonesinurine,althoughit'sthemostinexpensivewaytodoitisreallythemostinaccurateandproblematicway,Iwouldsay.Now,it'sveryinexpensivebuttheproblemiswhenyouurinateandyou'remeasuringacetoacetate,youhavealotoffactorsthataffectthatconcentrationintheurine,andthatcanbethetimebetweenyourlastvoid,thelasttimeyouurinated.Itcanbeacetoacetateconvertsintoacetoneinyoururinarybladder.Andsothere'squiteafewfactorsthatcanaffectthatconcentration.Sothat'snotreallythebestwaytomeasureit,althoughit'sinexpensiveit'salsonotquantitativeifyou'veeverdonethat.Itgivesyouacolorthatyou'vethengottoconverttosomesortofnumericalvalue.Thegoldstandardreallywouldbebloodmeasurementofbeta-hydroxybutyrate,andwhatthatis,isyouprickyourfingerandyougiveadropofbloodontoastrip,andthenyoumakeameasurementofbeta-hydroxybutyrateusingthedevice,andthatgivesyouaquantitativeresult.Andthat,likeIsaid,isprobablythegoldstandardatthemoment.Butthereareacouplethingsasyoucanimagine,mostpeopleIthinkinitiallysay,"It'sjustaprickonmyfinger.Getsomebloodandwemoveon."Butthatactuallyovertimeitstartstobepainful,anditactuallystartstocausebruising.Andso,andIsaythisfromexperiencesoit'snotasmuchfunasyouwouldimagine.Theotherthingisactuallythestripsarefairlyexpensive.Nowthey'vebeenfluctuatinginprice,buttheycanbe3to4bucksastrip.Soifyoumessupthemeasurementyougettopayanother3bucks,soitcanpotentiallybe,youknow,7bucksameasurementifyoumessitup.Sothosecanbeprettyexpensive,andyou'renotgoingtodoitalot,right?Justsimplybecausethecostandalsoalittlebitoftheinconvenience.Theotheroneisacetoneintheexhaledbreath,andthat'stheonethattheLEVLdeviceprovides.Thereasonwe'resoexcitedandbullishaboutitisbecauseyoucanmakemeasurementsasmanytimesasyouwantthroughouttheday,andyoucandoitinasomewhatofapublicsettingbecauseit'snot...Itdoesn'tfeelprivate,you'renotprickingyourself,youdon'thavetocleanupyourfingerafterwards.There's,youknow,prettyminimaloverheadforitinthatsense.Soacetonealso,thebenefitisthere'ssomenicerelationshipbetweenacetone,andatleastfatmetabolism,fatloss.Howtheyeachcompareonetoanother.Therehavebeensomestudies,thereseemstobesomecomparisonbetweenacetoacetateandbeta-hydroxybutyratedependingonsomeofthefactorswejusttalkedabout.Areyouexercising?Areyouhydratedwell?There'sarelationshipbetweenthem,it'snot100%clearwhatitis.Imean,wekindahavearange,youknow,itcouldbeonetoone,itcouldbeonetofourdependingonthat.Acetoneversusbeta-hydroxybutyrate,likeIsaid,kindofthatgoldstandardhasarelationshipaswell.Butitseemsliketheremaybealittlebitofadelaybetween,kindof,anelevationinbeta-hydroxybutyrateversusanelevationinbreathacetone.Sothereyougo.Katie:That'sreally,reallyfascinating.SoI'vebeenexperimentingwiththeLEVLmyself,andI'dlovetolikegetclarityonthebestwaytouseit.Sobasically,cansomeoneusethisathometokindofgaugeifthey'relosingfatornot?Andlikewhatwouldyoubelookingforifyouwereusingadevicetodothat?Joe:Yeah,ifyou'reusingtheLEVLdeviceto,youknow,justcutsomecaloriesandtrytolosesomefatmassbyreducingtheamountofcaloriesintakes.There'sanicerelationshipbetweenbreathacetoneandfatloss,andwehavethatontheappthere.Soacouplethingswerecommend.Numberone,measureitinthemorning,


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right?Whenyougetupanddoingthateveryday.Andthereasonisitgivesyouatimethat'srepeatable,that'salsonotreallyinfluencedbyoutsidefactorsbecauseyou'vesleptovernight,youhaven'tputanyfoodinyourmouth,youhaven'texercised.Andsoyou'vegottenupandyourbodyiscomingoutofthisrestful,peacefulstate,andsoit'sagoodtimetomakeameasurementthatallowsittobewellcontrolled.Oneofthethingswesaywiththemeasurementisweactuallyhaveabreathingpatternwerecommendtogetthemostrepeatableandaccuratemeasurement.Andit'sfairlysimpleandwecreatedittotrytomakeitfairlycomfortable.Soadeeperbreathin.Youholdyourbreathforaboutfiveseconds,andthenjustafullcomfortableexhalationthroughthelittlebreathpodbeforeyoudothemeasurement.SothatwouldbethethingIwouldsay.NowlikeIsaidbefore,youcancertainlytakemeasurementsthroughouttheday,andsometimesIthinkthat'sverybeneficialtounderstandwhenyougoandexercise,howdidthataffectyouracetonelevels,ormaybeyouatesomethings,ormaybeyou'restressed.Sothosesortsofthingscanhelpyoucalibratewhat'sgoingonwithinyourbody,withyourfatmetabolism.Katie:Yeah,I'vebeenenjoyingusingitlikeaftertryingdifferentfoods,toseelikewhichoneseemedtoaffectmybloodacetonelevelsandketosismore.Andit'sinterestingtoseethingslikesweetpotatoesdon'treallymakethatbigofadifferenceformeifIeattheminmoderation.Whereaslikesomefruitsreallydo.Soit'sbeenkindofcooltogettoexperimentlikethat.

ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyDryFarmWines.ThisistheonlywineIdrinkanymore.Afterresearchingandfindingthatmanyotherwinescontainaddedsugar,dyeslikeultravita-megapurpleandfilteringagentsincludingfishwaters,eggwhitesandsomeotherunsavoryingredients.Andthingslikesawdusttoimprovethetaste.ButtheDryFarmpartisimportanttoo.Whatthismeansisthatthegrapesarenotirrigated.Withoutthewater,theydon’tgetasbigorassweet,yieldinghighernutrientandloweralcoholwinesnaturally.Theirwinesarelabtestedforpurityandtomakesurethattheyarefreeofeventraceamountsofpesticidesandherbicides.Andtheyareallsourcedfromsmallfamilydryfarmvineyardsallovertheworld.IabsolutelylovetheirwinesandIfindthemtobelessexpensivethanotherhigh-qualitywines.AndWellnessMamalistenerscangetanextrabottleofwineforapennyatwellnessmama.com/go/wine.

ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyPaleovalley.Ifyouhavenottriedthese,they’reawesome.Theymakegrass-fed,naturallyfermentedbeefandnowpasturedturkeysticksthatarehighinproteinandnutrientsandalsoagoodsourceofprobioticsbecausethey’renaturallyfermented.Andthey’reshelfstablesoyoudon’thavetokeepthemrefrigerated.Webringthesealongwheneverwetravelandourkidslovethemalltimeaspartofanon-the-gomeal.IbringthemwheneverItravelbecausetheysavemesomanytimesfromairportfood.AndWellnessMamalistenerscanget20%offofanyorderatwellnessmama.com/go/paleovalley.

Katie:Howareyoufindingpeopleareusingthese?Isthatkindofthewaythatpeopleareusingthesethemost,isjustonadailybasistokindofgaugetheirresponse?Andareyouguysabletotrackthedatatoseeliketheresultspeoplearehaving?Joe:Yeah,twogreatquestionswhichamatteroffactIshouldhavebroughtup.Sooneofthethingsthatwe'reexcitedaboutisthatyouhaveanappconnectedtothehardwaredevice.ThedeviceisaboutthesizeofaKleenexbox.It'sprobablyalittlesmallerthanaKleenexbox.Andwhenyoumakethemeasurementbythedevice,thedevicesendsthedatatoyourappandsoyoucantrackandtrendallyourmeasurementsthroughouttheday,throughoutweeks,days,weeksetc.AndsoIthinkthat'soneofthebiggestbenefitsofhavingthissortofsetup,isthatwhatweseeispeoplethroughouttheweekareusuallyprettygood.You


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know,they'relike,theydecide,"Okay,thisismylifestylethatI'vechosen,andI'mgonnaworkhardduringtheweek."Andthentheweekendcomesand,youknow,theschedulegoesalittlebitsidewaysandtheyhavesomefun,theyhavesomefriendsoverandyoucanseetheiracetonelevelsdrop.Andthat'sjustbecausethey'rehavingsomefun.Youmayhaveafewdrinksontheweekend,oryoumayhaveacelebrationofabirthdaywithafamilymemberandhaveapieceofcake.Allthosethingscanmakeitdropoffandthentheweekstarts.Andyoucanseeitstarttoelevate,yourbreathacetoneelevateagainandgetbackintothatelevatedstateofketosis.Ithinkalotofpeopleareusingittoreallymonitor,justasyoudidwhatdietandexercisefactorsarecausingchangesintheirfatmetabolism.There'sanothersetofpeoplewhoareusingitlikeIsaidforsometherapeuticuses,andthatmaybeI'mtryingtoreverseadiseasecondition,whetherthat'sdiabetes,orcancer,ordementiaandmakingsuremyketonebodylevelsareelevatedtoatherapeuticlevelthat'sgonnagivemesomesortofbenefit.Katie:Gotit.Thatmakessense.Anddefinitely,Ishouldhavementionedinthebeginning,we'regonnahavelinksintheshownotesatwellnessmama.fm.Soanybodylistening,youguyscanfindoutmoreandgettoLEVLandcheckitout.Soifsomeoneisnewtoketosisingeneral,andespeciallynewtoliketestinglikethis,howwouldyourecommendtheygetstartedwiththeleastamountoflikeketoflu,ortheleastamountofnegativeeffects?Istherekindofagoodwaytoeaseintoit?Joe:SowhatIwouldsayistherearequiteafewdifferentfolkswhoarepretty,insomesense,professionalonthis.AndI'llkindofquotesomeofthem.Imean,acoupledifferentwaysyoucandoit,isthatyoucouldbuyoneofthoseexogenousketonesandeatsomeofthat.Youknow,peoplemaynotbefamiliarwiththosebuttheyarecalledketoneestersorketonesalts.Youcaneatsomeofthatasareplacementforsomeofyourfood,maybereplaceitforsugarwhichhelpsyourbody.Whatitdoesisit'sgoingtoelevatetheketonebodiesinyourbloodstreamexogenouslyandexternallyfromyourexternalingestion,andthenthathelpsyoukindofmoveintoketosisalittlefaster.Anotherwaytodoitistoistoeatmedium-chaintriglyceride.Soonceagain,substitutesomeofyourfoodandtakeinthiskindoffatthat'saspecifickindoffatcalledMCT,medium-chaintriglycerides.Andwhatthosedoistheyalmostimmediatelygetconvertedintoketonebodies,soyoucanelevateyourketonebodiesandgothatdirection.Iwouldsayprobablyonethingyoudon'twanttodoisjusttosay,"TodayI'monamixedAmericandietandI'mgonnastartfasting."That'sprobablygonnabethemostchallengingwaytodoit.Andifyou'reupforachallengeandyouhavesometimeinyourhands,thengoforitbutthat'sreallyatough,toughwaytodoit.IthinkaneasierwayisprobablythewayIwoulddoit,tobehonestwithyou,itwouldbetostarttograduallycutbackthesugars,addinlikeamedium-chaintriglyceridetotrytoeasethatconversion,andthenalsopotentiallyhavesomebonebroth.Havesomethingtotrytominimizethefluthat'sgonnacomewiththelossofcalcium,potassium,andthosechemicalsduetotheurinationofthefluidsout.Katie:Yeah,Idefinitelywouldechothat.AndIthinkthatIlovethatyousaidabout,youknow,reducingsugarbecauseIthinkwhetherfatlossisagoalornot,that'sagoodthingtodo.AndIknowthere'salotofresearchoutthere,andwe'reseeingmoreandmorebutalltheseincreasesindiseaseandcertainly,thebodydoesn'tneedprocessedsugaratleast.SoIlovethatyousaidthat,Ido.Ialwaysliketohighlightthatwhenever


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someonesaysitbecauseIthinkwe'recertainlyeatingmuchmoresugarthanourbodiesneed.Andyou'veprobablyseensomeresearchonthattoo.Joe:Yeah,andIwantedtojumpinhere,Iapologize.ButoneofthethingsIfoundinterestingIjustranacrossistheWorldHealthOrganizationbasicallysaidtheychangedtheirrecommendations,andthey'retellingpeopletoonlyeat25gramsofwhattheycallfreesugar.AndIthinkthat'sinterestingbecausewhenyouthinkaboutit,there'sallsortsofdifferentsugars,right?There'ssugarsinyourfruitsandyourvegetables.There'sjustnaturalsugarsinthose.Imean,there'ssugarsinhoneys,right?Butthenthere'sthisotherclassofsugarsthattheWorldHealthOrganizationhasdeemedfreesugar.Soimagineyoutakewhitegranulatedsugarandyoumixitintocookies.Theywouldcallthatfreesugarandthatsugarisgonnabemorereadilyabsorbedandthenit'sgonnaspikeyourbloodglucose,istheidea.SowhatI'mtryingtogetathere,ispotentiallyifyouwantedtogoonthatpathtotrytogetsugarsout,trytotakeoutthosesugarsthataremaybethefreesugarsthatarein,youknow,yourdessertsandinthosesnacks,andevenmaybenotjustgetridofthem,butmaybejustatfirsttosubstitute'emwithanaturalsugar,likeyou'dfindinabananaoranapple.Andthenyoucanmovefromthatandthenmaybetakethebananaandappleandmaybesubstitutenutsforthat,right?Soit'sjustkindofasloweasyprocessasopposedtotryingtotransformyourlifestyleandsay,"I'mgonnagiveupcookiesforever."Thatcanbechallenging.Katie:Yeah,that'sagoodpoint.AndIknowwhat'sworkingforme,becauseI'vebeenusingtheLEVLtokindof,likeIsaid,gaugemyfoodreactionstothings,andit'sbeenfascinating.Sowhattendstoworkthebestformenowistodointermittentfastingafewdaysaweekorjustextendingtheamountoftimebetweendinnerandbreakfast.AndthenoccasionallyI'lldolikealittlebitlongerofafast,butIfindthemoreIdothatandthemoreIkeepanykindofsugarslowandcarbslow,thefasterIgetbackintoketosisonthedaysthatIdoeatcarbohydrates.Itseemslikeyousaid,thebodywiththememory,kindof,onceyoulearnhowtodoityourbodygetstherealotfasterandwithoutanyofthenegativeeffects,kindof,onceyouadapttoit.Isthatwhatyou'veseenaswell?Joe:Exactly.Ilovetheideaoftheintermittentfasting.Ihavedonethatabitmyself,whereyousimplyyoueatamealatdinnerandthenlikeyousaidmaybe,youdon'teatagaintillnoonwhichwouldgiveyou16hoursoffasting.Andthat'sprettysimple.Andamatteroffactsomefolks,andIthinkthiswasTimFerrisswhosaidthiswhichIlike,isifyougettothepointwhereyoufeellikeyouhavetohavefood,maybeyoueatmedium-chaintriglyceride,whichissimplyakey...whichisgonnabeconvertedintoaketonebody.Nowthattechnically,itwouldtakeyououtofyourfast,butitdoesn'ttotallywhenyouthinkabouttheotherfoodsthatyou'regonnabe...you'reprobablygonnabeeatingsomeproteinsandsomesugars,andproteinscanbeconvertedintosugar.Soyou'rekindofhybridizingyourfastintothisketogenicstate.So,yeah,theintermittentfastingisgreat.AndIdoagreethatitseemstogetalittlebiteasierdayinanddayout,andyoucandoa24-hourfastreallyeasy,right?Yougotolunchandthenyoujustwaitalittlebitlonger,andmaybehaveanearlydinnerandyou'vealmostgotinto24hours.Soit'sanicewaytogoaboutit.And,youknow,theideaofthefastingtoo,isIthinkitgetsoverlooked,iswhenyouthinkaboutit.Thinkaboutyourheart,yourheartisbeatingeverysecondoftheday.There'snorestforyourheart,andinasense,wedon'tgiveourGItractorgastrointestinaltractanytimetoresteither.Weconstantlyarepumpingfoodsthroughthattractallthetime.Soifyoucangiveyourorgansystemsjustabreak.Ifit's24hours,Imean,ifyoucandoitfor7daysatsomepointinyourlife,andIhaven'tsoIwouldbethelastonetotalkaboutthat,youcanreallygiveitabreaktoallowittorepairandtoreplenish


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itself,andgetreadyforthenext,youknow,longstretchofprocessingfood.Katie:Yeah,andIwouldactually,ironically,I'minthemiddleofaseven-daywaterfastrightnow.ButIwanttosaylikedefinitelyI'munderdoctorsupervision.Iworkeduptothis.Thisisdefinitelynotsomethingtojumpinto.Ididn'twanttolikerecommenditandhavepeopletrytodoit.Butitisreallyfascinatingtoseelikemyketonesgettinghigher,andafterthefirstcoupledaysthementalclarityfromalltheketonesisabsolutelyincredible.SoIthinkthere'ssometremendousbenefits,andIknowlikeyousaid,there'sresearchonit.Andalsoit'saveryhistoricalthing.We'vefastedthroughouthistorybutyetweseemtobealittlemoreafraidofitthesedays.SoI'llreportbackonthepodcastatalateronewithmyresultsofallthat.But,yeah,Ilovethatyou'reseeingthatresearchaswell.Joe:AndIwannajumpinhere,andIwanttosecondwhatyoujustsaidwiththedoctorsupervision.Ithinkthat'sincrediblyimportant,particularlyifit'ssomething,youknow,wherethisis,youknow,we'regettingintoanewyearandpeopleliketomakeresolutionsandgoanddothings.Youknow,whenitcomestoyourhealth,it'salwaysagreatideatobemoresafethansorry,right?Andgoandgetthatextraevaluationandsay,"Yeah,youaremedicallyfittotrysomethingthat'salittlebitdifferent,alittlebitoutsideyourcomfortzone."Yeah,verysmartideatogetmedicalsupervisionparticularlyonthatlongfast.Katie:Yeah,forsure,100%.Aswegetintowardtheend,I'dloveforyoujusttokindofsharewhatyouguyshopetoaccomplishwithLEVL.I'vetalkedtosomeofyouremployeesbefore,andthere'sreallylikesomereallycoolresearchandwaysthatyouguysarekindofhopingtochangetheconversationonfatlossandfitness.SoIlovetojustkindofendonthatnoteofwhatyouguyshopetoaccomplishbygivingpeoplethetoolstomeasurethisonadailybasis?Joe:Well,youknow,thegoalofthecompanyreallyistochangethewholeideaofhealthandwellnessanddiseasemanagement,tounderstandingrightnowwhat'sgoingoninsideyourbody.Andtodothatweneedtomakemeasurements,individualmeasurementsofourmetabolismandthat'swhatthismeasurementofacetoneis.It'sameasurementofhowyourbodyismetabolizingfats,andsoifyoucanprovidethatinformationreal-timetopeople,theycanmakereal-timechanges.Now,thereasonIkeepsayingreal-time,isthatwithourcurrenttechnology,weuseascale.Andthescaleisreallyareflectiveofwherewe'vebeen.Soyougetonthescaletodayandthescale,themeasurementwillchangeupanddownthroughouttheweek,andreallyittakesacoupleweeksforthatscaletomoveonewayoranother.Andsoyou'vegottwoweeksoftimeoverwhichifyou'vemessedupforwhateverreason,youcan'tgetthattimeback.Soeverydaymeasurementallowsyoutomakereal-timechanges,andreallyunderstandwhereyou'regoingto.Oneofthethingsthat'sfantasticaboutthatstudyItalkedaboutwithAbbott,iswhattheydemonstratedisifyoucanmaintainatwo-partpermillionofacetoneinyourbreath.Sotwomoleculesofacetoneinamillion,thatwouldbeanelevationoverwhatmostpeoplehaveofone.Youcanloseahalfpoundoffatmassperweek.SotheLEVLdeviceispredictiveoffatloss.Soifyoucanjustmaintainit,it'sgonnatellyou.It'skindaagoldstar,theNorthStarwheretogo,howtogetthere,directingyouonyourpath.Sothat'soneway.Theotherwaytoo,wefeelthatit'sgonnabeafantasticdeviceforhelpingpeoplemanagediseases.Whetherthat'scancertherapy,whetherthat'sreversingtype2diabetes,whetherthat'sbrainfunction.Tryingtoelevateyourketonebodiestoimproveyourbrainfunction,orreducinginflammation,fatloss,epilepsy.Allthosethingswiththatimmediatefeedbacktounderstandhowyou'redoingdayinanddayout,andhowyourketonebodiesareresponding,howyourfatmetabolismisresponding.Anditmaynotjust


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beduetonutrition,itmayduetoexternalfactorsthatareaffectingyoursleep,yourstress,allthesethings.Ifyoucanintegratethat.Getasinglemeasurementtosay,"Yeah,youknow,yesterdayImessedupbutittodayisanewday.I'mgonnagetafteritandmakesomethinghappen."Asopposedto,"I'mtwoweeksdowntheroadandnowI'vewastedthosetwoweeks,andnowI'vegottostartover."Wereallyfeelthisisgoingtobetransformative.Katie:Yeah,anditssuperfascinatingandreallyawesomeIthinkjusttobeabletohavetoolinyourhouse,andtobeabletogetreal-timedata.Becauseforsolongthishasnotbeensomethingthatweasjustconsumersandpatientscoulddo,wasgetaccesstoanyreallylikequantitativehealthdatainourownhome.SoIlovethatyouguysarepioneeringthat.AndlikeIsaidI'vehadfunexperimentingwithit.And,ofcourse,thelinkswillbeintheshownotesandtheycanfindyouguysatlevl.com.But,yeah,anypartingwordsyouwannaleavewitheverybodyasencouragementoraboutLEVL?Joe:Yeah,youknow,youhitonthepointthatIshouldhavebroughtup,sinceIamthescientist,theclinicalscientisthere.Iswhatwe'vedonewithLEVLiswe'vetakenapieceoflaboratoryequipmentcalledaMassSpectrometerto50to$100,000pieceofequipment,andwe'veputitintoadevicethatyoucanhaveathome,thatgivesyouthesameaccuracyasyouwouldhaveinthelaboratory,withoutalltheheadaches,thebabysittingandthecostoftrainingtounderstandit.Soexactly,thishasnotbeenoutthereandthereasonithasn'tbeenouttherebecausethetechnologywastoughtokindofwrangle,andgetitintoaconsumerdevicebutthat'swhatmakesitreallyexciting.Andwereallyhopeitcanbetransformative.We'veheardsomefantasticstoriesfrompeoplethathaverevolutionizedtheirlifeasaresultofusingthedevice.Katie:Awesome.And,ofcourse,thelinkswillbeintheshownotes.ButJoe,thankyousomuchforyourtime.ThishasbeensuperfascinatingandIthinkit'sgonnahelpalotofpeople,andIreallyappreciateyoubeinghere.Joe:Yeah,absolutely.Thanksforhavingmeon.Katie:Andthankstoallofyouforlistening,andIwillseeyounexttimeon"TheHealthyMomsPodcast."

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.

144- what breath acetone can tell you about fat burning ...€¦ · absolutely love their wines and...

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