11583. A.J.LTJTHULI

"Constitution and Programme of the African National Con-gress" . 5s 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. It goes up to page 19, it's rather a long thing, headed Constitution and Programme of the African National Congress. Can you recognise that document?— Yes, I have seen it, my lords. It's a draft. I must say that round about 1954,1 think I've already said so in evidence, there was a desire to amend the Constitution and various drafts were submitted "by Provincial bodies and so on. This to me appears to be one of the drafts.

One of such drafts?— Yes. Then you get another document called "Preamble

to Declaration of Basic Policy" - - actually "Preamble to Statement on Basic Policy and Programme"; the word •statement' is scored out and 'declaration' is written above it. Do you see that document?— I se^ it.

Is that known to you at all?— No, my lords, I've just come across it.

What does it appear to you to be? Does it have any official standing at all?— It has no standing at all.

Has it ever become - - was it ever, or has it ever become any official A.N.C. document?— It has never become, and it is not an official document of the A.N.C.

RUMPFF J; What page is that? MR. MAISELS: It starts at page 21 . .?—

Yes, page 21 in the copy that I have here, my lords. In the copy which you have, which is "Preamble

to Declaration of Basic Policy"?— That is so. Then there's another document „ . . RUMPFF J: Is that typed or manuscript?

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11584 A.J. LTJTHITLI

It is typed, my lords, and certain corrections are 1

written in handwriting. MR. MAISELS: Then the next one, my lords, is

document starting "Declaration on Basic Policy and Pro-gramme of the African National Congress" with the words African National Congress scored out; do you have that 5 ?—Is that the Preamble to the Constitution . .

It may not be all in the same order. No, that's not the one. May I just see it, Mr.luthuli, our paging is apparently different. This document which is on page 21 - there's one which you have referred to 10 hitherto starts on page 20 - "Preamble to Declaration Basic Policy and Programme...." - I would like you to look at that first, to be quite sure; then I want you to look at the document which is headed "Declaration on Basic Policy and Programme of the African National 15 Congress" with the words 'African National Congress' scored out; in other words, one on page 20 and then one beginning on page 21 of A.15, and going right through to page 25, for a moment. I want you to tell me whether these documents have any standing at all?— 20 My lords, they have no standing whatsoever.

Then, finally, there is a document right at the end which starts off "Constitution of the African National Congress Preamble to the Constitution", "Where as the African National Congress was founded......" 25 and it appears to be a sort of a draft going on to the second page, A.B, D. and E. . . do you see that document?— Yes, I see it.

Has that document any standing whatsoever?— It has not. 30

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

So, to summarise it, apart from the initial Constitution, which appears on pages 1 to 4, have any of these papers any standing whatsoever in the African Ra-tional Congress?— They don't have any standing.

Now I want to pass to Exhibit A.309, "No Easy Walk to Freedom", page 945 of the record, my lords. Would you just take that please, Mr. Luthuli. Now that is what appears to be an article written "by Mr.Mandela; when did you read that for the first time, Mr.luthuli?— I read it for the first time in connection with this trial.

Do you mean with the evidence you have to give in this trial?— That is so.

Would you look at page 1 of that document. It's talk of a struggle - - I'm afraid I haven't got the document in front of me, nor a copy of the record. Just glance through it first, the first page.

(COURT ADJOURNED FOR 15 MINUTES)

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ON THE COURT RESUMING AT 11.15 A.M: MR. MAISELS: We were about to refer to

A.309, Mr.Luthuli, which you said you had seen for the first time in connection with this case. I want you to look at page 1 of that document not the introduction, 25 but page 1 of the article or whatever it is itself, and I want you to look towards the end of the second para-graph on page 1, where there is a discussion about the Defiance Campaign. Do you see that?— Yes, my lord.

Then it uses this language, talking about 30

11586 A. J.LUTHULI

the Defiance Campaign, "It inspired and aroused our people 1 from a competent and servile communityof yes men to a militant and uncompromising band of comrades in arms. The entire country was transformed into battle zone where portions of liberators were locked up in immortal conflict with those of reactionary evil. Our flag flew 5 in every battlefield, and thousands of our countrymen rallied around it. We held the initiative and the forces of freedom were advancing on all fronts." Now, Luthuli, it goes on, that after conference a welcome reception for those who had returned from the battle- 10 fields . . and a farewell to those who were still going into action..... Now, we know that the Defiance Campaign was a completely peaceful campaign?— That is so.

Now, there is obviously in this document lan- 15 guage of military metaphor?— That is so.

Now, will you explain whether this sort of lan-guage is used commonly in Congress circles, such language of military metaphor?— It is generally used.

Have you heard the term "war"?— I have heard 20 it used.

And what is the significance of that when it's used for example in the Zulu language - when you talk of a war between the people; what's the meaning of that? Does it mean a war in the English sense of a 25 bloody conflict?— No, my lords,, even in Zulu you'd use the word 'war' sometimes meaning a real war, but you'd also use it to describe where there are two oppos-ing forces - even in a political situation - - take for instance a case where you talk of two opposing forces 30

11587 A.J. LTJTHULI

10

"being at war with one another. You mean my learned friend and myself are at

war?— Yes. Now, would you turn to page 3 of that document,

where according to my t yping it should "be in the first paragraph on that page, the words "beginning 'Extremely dangerous to use " at the top of the page — oh, it's different paging. It's the paragraph that deals with "The Congress has realised that these methods " Have you got that paragraph?— Yes, I have.

If you look in that paragraph, which is rather a long one, towards the end where the writer says "The authorities will not easily permit a meeting called under the auspices of the A.N.C. Pew newspapers will publish statements criticising the policy of the Govern-ment,, and there is hardly a single printing press which will print leaflets calling upon workers to embark on industrial action". Co you see that paragraph?— I'm afraid not . . . .

Would you mind lending it to me; perhaps I'll draw your attention to the particular passage. Yes, it's on page 3, the words are already underlined. You see those words?-. Yes.

"These developments require the evolution of new forms of political struggle which will make it reasonable for us to strive for action on a higher level than the Defiance Campaign". What do you take that to mean, Mr. Luthuli?— I take this to mean that the Defiance Campaign was our first effort. I must re-fer you to our Programme of Action to make it clear; you'll find there listed certain forms of extra

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11601. A.J.LUTHULI

Parliamentary struggle. 1 The 194-9 Programme?-- Yes, the 194-9 Programme of

Action, civil disobedience, non co-operation, general demonstrations and strike action. The Defiance Campaign was the first and I think in comparison with irike action the Defiance Campaign was elementary. 5

Would Strike action be action on a higher level?— Yes, it would.

Now would you turn to page 5 it's at the top of that page, the paragraph starting "There is nothing in-herently superior about the Herrinvolk idea about the 10 supremacy of the whites " Do you see that?— Yes.

Now, lower down you find this; "In Africa there are approximately 190 million Africans as against four million Europeans". Do you see that sentence?— I do.

"The entire Continent is seething with discon- 15 tent, and already there are powerful revolutionary erup-tions. In the Gold Coast, Nigeria, Tunisia, Kenya, and the Rhodesias, and South Africa," In what sense do you take the words "Revolutionary" to be used there?— I think, my lords, it is in the same line with the expres- 20 sion that you asked me about earlier, using a metaphor,

Have you referred to the Defiance Campaign as involving a revolutionary method; you yourself?— Yes, I have.

What do you mean by the term 'revolutionary 25 method' in relation to the Defiance Campaign?— Well, if one takes into account that before the Defiance Campaign as one has already testified to in this Court, the methods used were methods of supplication; now, to come to a method like the Defiance Campaign, in comparison with 30

11589 A. J.LUTHTTLI

10

the Defiance Campaign it's a revolutionary step. . A revolutionary development?— Yes, a revolu-

tionary development. Now, in the same paragraph there are talks of

'day of reckoning', 'clash' between the forces of freedom, 'resist to the death' - - all that sort of language which one finds in this article. Do you take that to be literal or metaphorical?— My lords, I take that to be metaphori-cal.

Yes. Now, then, just to revert for the moment to the word - - you have said from time to time, you have spoken about the Defiance Campaign as a revolutionary de-velopment; you've also spoken of it in AJL.45 - my lord, on page 5 - in this way: "I have embraced a non-violent passive resistance technique in fighting for freedom be-cause I am convinced that it is the only non-revolutionary ^ legitimate and humane way that could be used by people denied, as it were, effective constitutional means....." So is the word used sometimes in two senses?— That is so.

Now then in the same document there is refer-ence to what is called the 'M' plan, at the foot of page 5, "To achieve this important task" - dealing with organisa-tion - "The National Executive of the A.N.C. in consulta-tion with the National Action Committee of the A.N.C. and the S.A.I.C, formulated a plan of action popularly known as the 'M' Plan". What does »M' stand for?— 'M' would stand for Mandela.

And would you tell us what the 'M' Plan was?— The 'M' plan is an organisational plan where we try to enlist the services of ardent people among us, volunteers and others, to carry on organisational work of Congress

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

from house to house, doing intensive work; speaking in 1 the language of the church I am familiar with I would say that they are the creatures of Congress; they can-vas people to join, explain to people Congress policy if there is acampaign to carry on; they have leaflets to distribute in the area; we rely upon these people, my 5 lords. But it is an organised system where we expect people who are devoted to the work to carry on the work, in their particular areas. It's organised in the sense that those people who work are under the charge of another man who will say 'You do this, send out these leaflets, 10 send out these messages' and so on.

Is it a system of house to house vancassing ? — Yes, that's so.

And is that found more satisfactory peihaps than a weekly public meeting?— A weekly public meeting 15 has its place, my lord, but it can never take the place of house to house work in any organisation.

Yes. And is the idea that you have a person who is particularly interested in the Congress, and does he have an area allotted to him, such as a block or 20 something of that nature?-- That is so.

Yes. Now, what effect do you hope that that will have in regard to the organisation?— It has the sense of strengthening the organisation numerically and helping to spread in that particular area the Congress 25 programme and outlook. In other words, it is easier to keep contact with an entire area that way.

As far as you are concerned, is it any secret method of organisation?— Oh, no, my lords, it isn't a secret kind of organisation, nor in fact would I suggest 30

11591 A, J. LTJTHULI

the A.N.C. was the only one using that plan; it's just a commonsense plan.

You say commensense plan, and that the A.N.C. would not be the only one to do it - - ? — I wouldn't be surprised if the United Party did the same or the Liberal Party or any other political group.

Yes. Now, I want to come to a new chapter. Just leave the document for a moment. You have stated already, Mr.Luthuli, that the A.N.C. is a national orga-nisation which would like to see every African as a member ? — That is so.

And within the A.N.C. do you restrict member-ship to people of particular ideologies, or beliefs? No, my lords, we don't.

Assume the position were to arise when the African people were to be given the vote, and assume the position were to arise that the African National Congress were to be asked - -- assuming it were still functioning as a political party, - - to form a government. Do you visualise that all Africans would find themselves in one camp?-- I would say it need not be so; it would depend upon how the election goes, but insofar as the outlook -my outlook and that of my organisation is concerned, a multi-racial party, a multi-racial government - - either way - - in other words, to ask will it be one race, that does not arise, my lords.

But insofar as division on economic lines is concerned, would you expect that to take place?— Yes, I think that people generally will group themselves ac-cording to economic interests. Now I'm a peasant man, I suppose I would have to see that the interests of the

11592 A. J.LUTHULI

peasants are given attention to. I suppose a peasant would do the same thing.

Now the A.N.C. as such, has it any ideology?— It has no ideology.

Nov/, have you any objection to having persons who were named as Communists, ex Communists or Commu-nists in the African National Congress?— No.

When the Communist Party existed as a lawful body, do you know whether there were persons who were active in the Communist Party who were members of the African National Congress?— I do.

Have you yourself made any study of Communism?— I have not.

Have you read what are called the Communist Classics?— No, I haven't.

Do you know what the Communist Classics are?— I don't.

What sort of interest have you taken in Commu-nism yourself?— Well, I should say that I haven't taken any particular interest, except to the extent that it is something the ordinary man in the street knows, that there is a Communist Party; most everybody might know just a little about it.

And would you mind telling their lordships, because you are supposed to be the leader of a Communist Organisation, what your understanding of Communism ±9; what your knowledge is?— Well, as I said, I'm not a student of Communism; my knowledge of it.is this, that it is a Party that stresses a great deal about the government having control over the economic life of the people, so that the individualist life doesn't really have

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11593 A. J.LUTHTJLI

much play. A good deal of the organisation is in the hands i of the Government, much more than you get in what one might call the Western type of government.

Are you personally attracted to this idead?— I'm not.

What are your political beliefs, insofar as 5 a kind of State is concerned - Socialist, Capitalist, or Communist; what are your views?— Well, my own belief loans more towards what I would call a Socialistic out-look, in the sense that to a certain extent the State must control the interests of the people without inter- 10 fering with the individual freedom of the people, and I have in fact said that the kind of thing that obtains now in Great Britain with the Labour Party seems to meet my taste. There, again, I must hasten to say that I haven't studied their programme 3:i full, but with the 15 general knowledge I have, I have leanings in that direc-tion.

Do you see any reason why Communists should not join the African National Congress and work for the

j aims of the African National Congress?—None whatsoever. 20 If political rights are accorded to the

African people will the Communists, like any other person, in your view be entitled to try to work for any policy he chooses?— Quite so; in a democracy they should.

Have you any reason to believe that persons 25 - that Communists who have been, or for all you know are in the African National Congress - have you any reason to believe that such persons have not been loyal to the policy of non-violence9— None whatsoever.

Do you know Moses Kotane?-- I know him 30

/ / S V 4 A.J.LUTHULI

ft

fairly well. Is he a person who is a member of the former

Communist Party?— That is so. Was he active in the A.N.C. long before the

Communist Party was banned?— He was. Yes, he is one of the signatories to "Africans

claims", is that so?— That is so. He was in Congress before I became a member of Congress.

\ Have you often spoken to him?— Quite often. Do you know what his views are on the subject

of non-violence, or violence?— I know them. What are they?— He conforms to the policy of

Congress in this matter without reservation. Are you conscious of any Communist or Left Wing

person - - and I'm using the term Left Wing in the broad sense in which it was used by another person who gave evidence in this case, namely 'anybody who does not seem to be absolutely Right'; are you conscious of any Communist or Left Wing person having tried to per-suade the African National Congress to deviate from its policy of non-vjolence?-_ No, my lords.

Now, do you say it is possible or impossible, for persons - - using the term broadly - - with Socialist leanings, to have entered the Movement since 1950?— No, it is not impossible.

Would you say that among some Africans there has developed an interest in Socialism?— I would say so

But do you say - - what would you say in general about the Africans that you know? Do you say that generally speaking they are extreme Left or moder-ate, or what would you say with regard to them9— It's

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11601. A.J.LUTHULI

very difficult to classify precisely; I think that Afri- 1

cans continue to be divided - - well, socially - - -Socialistic outlook, and others who possibly might come under more towards leanings of Capitalism - - its' varied, my lords.

Is there any difference among the Africans - 5 is there any distinction in that connection between the African people and other people9— There's no difference.

And among the members of the A.N.C?— The same thing is true.

Now, the A.N.C. has adopted the Freedom Char- 1 0

ter, has it not?— That is so. Has that in your opinion made the A.N.C. a

Socialist Movement?— No, it hasn't. What do you say is the proper interpretation

to be placed on the adoption by the A.N.C. of the Freedom 15 Charter?— I would say, my lords, that the Freedom Charter is a practical document which leans towards Socialism, having regard to the practical situation that obtains.

For instance, the Freedom Charter favours re-distribution of land?— That is so. 2 0

But not on a collective basis?— That is so. Consequently in your opinion, does the

Freedom Charter visualise individual ownership of land ? — It does.

Then I think you mentioned yesterday, or 25 perhaps the day before, in reply to some questions by their lordships, the position of the economic standard of the African people. I think that was discussed yes-terday or the day before, I'm not certain?— That is so.

And what is your view in that connection 30

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11596 A.J.LUTHULI

insofar as it relates to the Freedom Charter; what are the aims of the Freedom Charter insofar as the economic standards of the African people are concerned?— I think that the Freedom Charter tried to address itself, as I said earlier, to the conditions that obtain in this coun-try insofar as non-Europeans are concerned, and as you have indicated, sir, it speaks about distribution of land, so that there might be a large number of people who are landless who might wish to be farmers, it would take care of that, and it speaks about making provision for private enterprise by individual Africans. Some-where it speaks also of nationalisation of certain major industries, or undertakings, but all of it is directed towards trying to see that the under-privileged people we have at the present moment, to a certain extent, are met.

Is it Congress policy to do away with private ownership?— No, it is not opposed to private ownership, except I think, if my memory is correct, after citing one or two major undertakings that would be nationalised it goes on to speak about private enterprise.

Is it Congress policy to do away with pri-vate ownership of the means of production?— No,except that it is two-sighted.... I'm not sure of exactly what it says . .

Well, mines and banks are mentioned?—Yes. Now, is a member of the A.N.C. free to

make propaganda against Socialism if he wants to9—Oh, yes. I have stressed - and I can continue to stress-that the African National Congress is fully democratic - any member, at any time, through the right channel

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11601. A.J.LUTHULI

can "bring up any matter for discussion. 1 And, of course, in favour of Socialism if he

wants?— If he wants to, yes. Now,you stressed the fact that the Freedom Char-

ter visualises free enterprise save in regard to certain major undertakings?— Yes. 5

Is the question of free enterprise a matter of importance for the African person?— It is, my lords, a matter of great importance because at the present time while Africans theoretically might appear to have the right of private enterprise, yet the opportunities, both 10 in urban areas and rural areas to a certain extent, too, are greatly limited. Regulations place limitations on them. I'm not completely versed with conditions in Urban areas, "but the facilities that are generally open to Europeans are not open to Africans. Let me cite one 15

example to illustratemy point. It is generally not known for instance that we are shut off from business houses; it is very difficult for an African businessman for example to obtain a loan or a draft or anything of that kind. Incidentally it goes back to the question of 20 land also, not having freehold land in the business world you are left hanging in the air.

No security?— No security; yes. And my experience in rural areas is that whilst the policy is to give Africans an opportunity of developing, you find yourself up against the question of finance, capital, and also from the point of view of the spaoe of the reserve you soon find you've reached saturation point. I here talk from a certain amount of experience. It is very easy in any Reserve, after a few men have received

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

licences, to find that you've reached saturation point. 1 Now you personally, are you in favour of an idea

of class within the Congress or among the people?— I do not entertain the idea of class anywhere.

Does Congress entertain the idea of class?— It doesn't. 5

Has the African business community and the peasant in the rural reserves the same place in Congress as any-body else?— That is so.

Now I want to refer you to a letter which was seized by the police, AEL,43, from the possession of }.0 Dr. Letele written by you on the 22nd March, 1956. Would you identify this letter. It's not been put in, my lords, by the Crown. Is that the letter you wrote?— That is so.

Well, I'll read it: "Dr.Letele, Treasurer- 15 General, A.N.C. Kimberley. Dear Son of Africa, some friend whom you know has donated National A.N.C. with £100. Find enclosed my cheque for the transfer of this money to you. It is to be used in any manner the Pre-sident-General thinks best. It could be for any emer- 20 gency need or help in any newspaper venture, the A.N.C. may undertake. Until we meet and discuss what we should advise the Executive, make no report about it. You may, if you wish, write me to say that you think what you think is an urgent call for which we could use this 25 money. I trust you will be able to attend the special conference in Johannesburg, I am very uneasy about cer-tain new trends or cliques in Congress. Unfortunately I cannot move about the country to exert my influence to counteract these moves, I feel so strongly on some 30

11608 A.J.LUTHULI

r

of them, and if the Special Conference and the Annual 1 Conference in December approves of them, I may seriously have to consider whether or not I can honourably continue to act as President-General. These are some of the mat-ters I feel strongly on: (l) Abolishing in any new con-stitution the Provincial level in o\ir organisational 5 structure. Ido not like over-centralisation. Power must be shared or else you create dictators. (2) Making the Freedom Charter the basis for co-operation with any group in the future. Why should we tie ourselves so fast to the Congress of Democrats? We should form a Freedom ^ Front as wide as possible. With Africa's Greetings, yours in the national, service, A.J.Luthuli, President-General." It's AEL.43, my lords. I hand that in. Now, just take that letter in your hand, please, Mr.Luthuli. There were two points you raised in that letter, which were ^ causing you a certain amount of disturbance?— That is so.

The first was the question of what you call over-centralisation?— That is so.

Did your view prevail?— It did. OA

The second was, that you expressed a view that you ought not to limit your co-operation with white groups to the C.O.D?— That is so.

Did that view prevail?— It did, my lords. Is your view that you wish to co-operate

with any white group, or any group of any colour which is prepared to further your aims, even if they do not endorse everything in the Freedom Charter?— That is so.

Of course, you still co-operate with the C.O.D?— Yes. I might say, as I say in this letter, there was a view current with a few people - I cannot

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11600 A.J.LUTHULI

say how many - the Freedom Charter might be made a basis 1

for co-operation, and I was trying thereto say no, "We are in favour of the Freedom Charter in the A.N.C, and the Congress but we can't say to any other group coming to us- - that is if what I heard was true - - that you can only co-operate with us if you endorse fully 5 the Freedom Charter . Is that view that I was trying to stress, that it would not be right. And as I say I had heard of these people - - I felt it was necessary for me - if it should be true - to point out that we would be narrowing our struggle unnecessarily. I 10 think the basis we had established of an indivisible Party had answered well - co-operating all those issues on which we saw things alike. I was making a plea for that.

Now, people of the Left - using that view - 15 they undoubtedly have their own views on foreign affairs

and economics?— That is so. Insofar as Congress is concerned, and insofar

as Congress policy is concerned, what view do you hold in regard to what Leftists in the Congress Movement are working for?— They, like anybody else, are per-mitted towork for, as we say, the liberation of the oppressed people in the country; they may work to see that discrimination on a basis of colour is done away with, and that we all come to enjoy democratic rights.

Ifeve you ever had any reason to doubt the loyalty of what we call the Leftists in the Congress Movement, their loyalty to the objects and aims of the African National Congress?— Not at all.

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11601. A.J.LUTHULI

Do you think that your co-operation with the 1 Congress of Democrats and the S.A.Indian Congress has resulted in a change of A.N.C. policy?— It hasn't. On the fundamental policy of the A.N.C. it hasn't, and I might indicate there, of course, that with both the S.A.Indian Congress and the Congress of Democrats, the 5 initiative really came from the A.N.C. As I said in connection with this earlier in my evidence, the ini-tiativeto build co-operation has come from us.

And this co-operation with the Indian Con-gress, how many years back does that go to your know- 10 ledge?— To about 1943.

And with regard to an appeal, with regard to a formation of a body of white persons to co-operate with the A.N.C. do you know when that was made?—In about 1953, 15

And who took the initiative?— We took the initiative, my lord.

Now, during the Defiance Campaign, has there been some evidence of European support for Congress?— There has been some evidence of some Europeans wishing 20 to participate, and in fact some did as individuals. For instance, Mr. Patrick Duncan - he joined the Defiance I think in Johannesburg . . . he approached me first....

Germiston?— Yes, and there was quite a feel-ing among some whites to join us, but then being a 25 national movement we really couldn't deal with indivi-duals, and that's what gave rise to the need for having a body on a national level, to make it possible for us to co-operate, with whites.

Yes. And the C.O.D. came into existence, 30

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

you say, as far as you remember, about 1953?— That is 1 so.

Now you've already told their lordships that you are aiming at a multi-racial society?— That is so.

Did you therefore regard the formation of a body with white persons, who held the same view aa you 5 did, as desirable?— Very desirable.

Now, are you prepared, were you and are you still prepared to co-operate with any group which is prepared to adopt your policy of equal rights for all races?— That is so. 10

Now, it has been said, and you heard it said, that the Congress of Democrats includes persons who are named Communists. Have you heard that?— I have.

Now, at the time when the C.O.D. was formed, do you know whether the persons who were responsible 15 for forming it, were Communist or not?— I do not know for a fact, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were.

And even if you had been told that they were Communists, would that have caused you to reject their assistance?— I would not have.

You would not have rejected their assistance?— No, I would not have rejected their assistance.

Have you any reason to believe in fact that the C.O.D. is a Communist organisation?— No, I have no reason to believethat. In fact I don't think they are; I have no reason to believe they are.

And insofar as the C.O.D. is concerned, have they, as far as you are aware, ever been unfaithful to the aims and policy which you say you were jointly striving for?— They have been loyal to the alliance.

11608 A.J.LUTHULI

Now, there are papers like 'Fighting Talk', and 'New 1 Age'?— I know thorn.

Tell rae, Mr. Luthuli, what you have to say about New Age and its support for the A.N.C?— We use the New Age a great deal as a forum for expressing what we desire to let people know; we find that New Age is extremely co-operative; one might say, my lords, in the ordinary Press of the country, the European Press, it is not easy at all in that Press to have your state-ments published - - in fact when there is a campaign we are always in the habit of supplying newspapers with 1° our statements, and all you sometimes find is a short column, must distorted . . . . this much . . .

Just a few inches, shall we call it?— Yes, just a few inches. So that even where they do give us space we sometimes regret that they have published any- 15 thing because it is so distorted, what we say. We find New Age extremely co-operative; therefore we use it, Unfortunately we don't have any Press of our own, and we therefore make use of sympathetic organs like New Age or any other for that matter. 20

And consequently do you call on your followers to support those papers?— We do0

Loes that mean that the A.N.C. agrees with everything that New Age says?— Oh, no, far from it.

Or everything that Fighting Talk says?— Oh, no, we don't.

Or 'Liberation'?— Far from it. I suppose it's not really peculiar with the A.N.C. I don't know whether certain white papers which might be supporting say either the United Party or the Nationalist Party - - 30

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

I don't know the set up - - whether anyone can say that

she shares everything in her paper with the Party sup-

porting it. Now, speaking again from your own personal know-

ledge of the African National Congress and its members, would you say that all the members of the A.N.C. have the same opinions on every topic?— No, they don't.

Do you say there are Leftists and Rightists -one uses that broad term?— I would say so.

Liberals, Conservatives, Communists, Nationa-lists, everybody in the A.N.C?— That is so.

What is the link between all these people, what is there that binds them together?— The link between these people is that all of them desire to see the non-European people in particular free in this country. That is the central theme that links them.

What do you say with regard to whether there is or is not a Christian feeling in Congress to this day?— In Congress you do have Christians, if I understand you well.

Is there a Christian feeling; you know people may be Christians and not necessarily follow all the principles; what would you say?— There is Christian feeling in the Congress.

Strong or weak?— That would be rather diffi-

cult really to assess. I would like to believe that it

is fairly strong. Now, I want to deal with the question of foreign

policy for a moment. I think you told their lordships / yesterday that the A.N.C. has always been in favour of

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

self government for Colonial countries and against Imperialism?— That is so.

Are there nations that you call Imperialist nations?— Yes.

I think in answer to his lordship, the Judge President, you gave the names of them yesterday?— I did

Now, do you approve of Imperialism of any sort?— I don't.

And do you welcome the achievement of self government by former Colonies?— I do.

Consequently, what is the tendency so far as the A.N.C. is concerned, in judging Nations?— My lords, we judge nations in terms of the extent to which they accord with our views regarding giving freedom to all people.

Do you concern yourselves particularly with what is said at the United Nations?— Very much, my lord

I don:t think we need go into the United States position becausi we dealt with that yesterday?— Correct.

Now, insofar as the British Government is concerned, has the African National Congress been cri-tical of that?— We have been, very critical.

For what reasons?— Ve have been critical of the British Government because it is one of the Colonial Governments and in her territories people have suffered. I even said some time this morning I think that we will always remember that at Union the British Government didn't play quite fair with us,, so that in her terri-tories people have suffered, Also, even at the United Nations, if I may repeat myself, she has continually

11608 A.J.LUTHULI

voted against the apartheid resolution moved by other 1 nations at the United Nations.

In recent years have the A.N.C. welcomed and praised the action of the British Government in giving

self government to its African Colonies?— Yes, to the extent that Great Britain has given freedom to coun- 5 tries like Ghana, Nigeria and others> we have thanked them for it.

And is the A.N,Cc anti-British?— No, we are not anti-British.

Now, you mentioned before that the A.N.C. is 10 interested in the liberation of all people?— That is so.

And you mentioned the fact that you are opposed to privileges being accorded to certain sections of the community?— That is so.

Do you find in that any reason, or any explana- 15 tion as to why the A.N.C. is not unsympathetic to Socialist ideas generally?— Well, my lords, I think that does give an explanation as to why the A.N.C. is sympathetic to Socialistic outlook.

In England, for example, as far as you know 20 what has been the attitude of the Socialist group in-sofar as rights for Africans are concerned?— The Labour Party in England having adopted the Socialist programme, in our view has been a force in England that has tended to make it take a sympathetic view of things 25

in their Colonies — it has got their people to more or less make their government accept a more or less liber-al progressive attitude towards meeting the aspirations of the peoples in the Colonies. I think a good deal

30 of credit goes to the Lrbour Party.

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

10

Do you think that there has been a change of British public opinion, non-Socialist for the moment, in regard to African rights?— I think there has been. I think there has definitely been a change.

Do you think that the Conservative Party has followed the labour Party in some respects?— I think they have.

Now, this question of equality, is that import-ant as far as the African is concerned?— It is import-ant.

And in your view - - I mean, have Africans - -leave out the words in your view please - - have Africans as far as you know taken an interest in the Soviet Union - some Africans?— They have, my lords.

Has the question of equality anything to do in your opinion with the interest shewn by Africans in ^ the Soviet Union, shewn by some Africans in the Soviet Union?— I think it has quite a lot, my lord., because as I have enunciated earlier any country that in a way supports either directly or indirectly our idea of seek-r

20

Ing freedom would naturally be interested in that aspect -they would be interested in the views of any such coun-try.

Has the Soviet Union, as far as you know, supported the abolition of apartheid at United Nations ? — They have. 2 5

Have you yourself made a study of the Soviet Union?— No.

Does the Soviet Union and its form of govern-ment, as far as you understand it, provide a pattern for you?— It does not.

11608 A.J.LUTHULI

But to persons in Congress, does Russia or does 1 it not, appear to stand for equality and for the rights of oppressed people?— It does, my lord.

And to that extent what would you say the feel-ings of many people in Congress would be towards Russia ? — I would think that the feeling of many people in Congress would be to regard Russia to the extent that it stands for the things for which they aspire, as help-ful.

Do you think they would feel grateful?—Yes. On the other hand - well, let's put it this

way: do you think that Russia plays a more important part in the minds of Congress members than say China or India or Ghana?— I'm sure it doesn't.

You're sure it doesn't?— Yes. In your opinion do China and India and Ghana

have a far more important place in the minds of Congress members?— I really feel they do.

Would you explain why?— Well, firstly, these countries, particularly India, Ghana and Nigeria, have

20

been Colonial countries, and also, of course, China like the other countries I've mentioned, is a non-European country, and has suffered from oppression - and they have struggled and they have attained freedom, and you know, to sort of feel that there are people who have 25 achieved - - for one thing, if one takes the non-Europeans generally, the white world generally feel that well, we are superior to the non-Europeans. Now, when a non-European group - - it's only natural - -when it does an excellent thing you say well, you have 30 proven our case.

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

Is it important, as far as the A.N.C. is con-cerned, how these countries achieved their freedom?—No, my lords, we are interested mainly in the fact that they have striven - - we do not concern ourselves very much about how - - but where a country has striven and achieved and followed the methods we adopt, naturally it gives us pleasure. And in fact it makes us believe more in the efficacy of our methods.

What is India's role as far as the Africans in this country are concerned?— Well, insofar as India is concerned, my lords, it stands high in the opinion of Congress, and I suppose amongst the African people gener-ally. Firstly, because she was the first to gain freedom from Great Britain, but also because there are Indians no doubt in this country - - but also because she has in fact led the United Nations regarding our situation here. She has brought to the forefront of the world the ques-tion of the oppression, firstly of people of Indian origin and then later the whole question of apartheid. The introduction of that question at UNO is due to the ini-tiative of the Indian Government. We cannot forget that.

Now, in 1957 or 1958 - I'm not sure, perhaps you can tell me - this booklet I hold ? — 1958.

The African National Congress handbook was issued?— That is so.

I want to read to you a paragraph from this "but before I read it, perhaps I ought to get the position clear. There is a statement here of the African National Congress' International Policy?— That is so.

The statement that is contained here in 1958 - is that any different from the policy, international

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

policy of the African National Congress during the period

1952 to 1956, the period of the Indictment?— It is not different at all. What we have there is really a re-iteration of our policy. We made a handbook; you will find there are other policy statements in that booklet.

Correct. •••?— We were merely making available to the public and to our members in pamphlet form some of our policies. We were not there formulating policy.

It is a reiteration?— A reiteration of policy. I'll read it to you. "Congress International

Policy: Congress has won the support of people in many other countries in its fight for liberation. We in turn have supported the rights of peoples everywhere to freedom from foreign domination or from minority rule. In doing so we have not necessarily supported the me-thods they used from time to time. This is their business, just as the methods we use and the day to day policy we put forward are ours. Congress does not ally itself with any bloc of countries in the East-West struggle. It supports the general aims of the Afro-Asian powers, and opposes those policies which support dither directly or indirectly the oppression of the people in any part of the world. Congress upholds peace against those who try to settle the international disputes by armed force and by war." Is that a correct statement of your policy during the whole period rele-vant to this case?— That is so.

Now, that policy being summarised, are world affairs often discussed at Executive level?— I would not say often; I would say that we do discuss them, but in particular when there might be an issue that has

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

come up in world affairs, bearing upon any nation, natur-ally it comes up for discussion. I wouldn't say that we always have a debate on national level.

And at conference level, is it often or rarely debated?— Rarely, my lords.

You mentioned earlier that discussion of world affairs is usually prompted by some specific event that has happened?— That is so.

And say for example - - could you give me an example of the sort of thing that might cause discussion ? — Well, you might say for instance - - I think I have already said it in evidence - - I referred to the situa-tion in Indo-China, and I referred to the situation in Hungary. I don't know whether I have already referred to the situation in Kenya . . .

That's the sort of thing that would start a discussion?— Yes.

And when there is a discussion what is the general practice at the end of that discussion?— The general practice is to take a resolution on that particu-lar issue.

Add is that then made public?— That is so. Is there usually a lot of time available at

conferences for world affairs?— Not at all. In fact we find it very difficult to manage our business in confer-ence; we don't have much time for organisation of our size.

Most of the time at Congress, with what is that taken up?— Most of our time is taken up by local issues, and as one has already indicated in evidence, these grow with the years in magnitude, and then organisa-

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

tional natters come up. That takes up most of our time. Yes. I think you've already told their lord-

ships that you have no link with any government in the world?— I have.

Do you welcome contacts with friends in any coun-try in the world?— We do, very much.

Including political leaders?— That is so. Now, some of the language used in the A.N.C, and

some of the language used generally in politics by Afri-cans, it has been said by some persons, has a leftist sound. Do you follow what I mean?— I follow.

What do you have to say about that; do you accept that or do you deny it? For instance, language of anti-Imperialism is said to be Leftist; that sort of language?— Well, I am not in a position really to say that the origin of this is that, but some of the expressions are current and one finds oneself using those expressions because they are current expressions and they seem to express what idea one might wish to express. I cannot go to the origin and say this means that, and this originates from there.

But assume for the sake of argument that some of the expressions are the kind of expressions - you know, a Nazi beast or a Fascist dictator, or an Imperial-ist mongrel, or one of those other jolly terms one finds in the papers - - assume that some of those terms might have come from the Communists originally?— It is pos-sible.

Now would you be surprised at the fact that one might find Africans who are not Communists using those terms?— No, I would not be surprised.

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

Would you explain why?— For this reason, my lords, that I think it is true that generally speaking of the white groups, for example, the Communists were the earliest to take an interest in the position of the African people, and it is quite possible that you'd naturally have certain expressions becoming very, very common.

But do you think it's gone further than that, do you think that many - - that there has been a Leftist indoctrination of the African people in the African Na-tional Congress?— I don't think that at all. I think many people who use those expressions wouldn't even know what you meant by indoctrination - - it is just used for purposes of expression - - it's quite ready language.

Can you give a simile in another field which may assist in this matter? — I would say for instance that when the Missions started to work mainly at the Cape, I think most of our Christian literature, the bible, was in Xosa. You'll find for instance in my own terri-tory , Zululand, this is particularly so with the Metho-dist Church because it strengthened itself in the Cape. You'll find even in a Zulu congregation Xosa is taken as what one might call the religious language of that particular church. People just got used to it, and insofar as worship is concerned you find that they seem to like more and more to use Xosa expressions -this is so particularly with the Methodist church, as I say, because they established themselves first in the Cape; all of their Hymn books were in Xosa, and then it came to Natal.

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

So Africans first learnt politics in the Leftist language?— Yes, it's current language, and certain terns express ideas - one has no other way of expressing them.

Merely that they learnt politics in that lan-guage, some of them, does that make them Communists?— Well, I don't know whether I'd be allowed to use a personal expression - - - I have used those expressions and I'm not a Communist.

I think that's the answer. Now let's go on to the Mau Mau. You know in lots of the documents, Mr.Luthuli, there has been reference to the Mau Mau. Now, has there ever been any A.N.C. endorsement of a violent method used one way, on one side or the other in Kenya?— No, my lords.

What is your belief and attitude - - I think in this matter you can speak on behalf of the A.N.C in regard to the troubles in Kenya? Or would you rather speak for yourself firstly?— Well, I'd prefer to speak for myself, although I don't think you'll find much difference between my own view and the view of the A.N.C.

Right?— My feeling is this, that people in Kenya - that is the African people in Kenya were faced with a certain problem, being under foreign rule which did not give them what they wanted, and that in the process of struggling - - I think it concerns a particular tribe, the Kikuyu, because the land question I think was very prominent there - - I cannot say exactly how it started, I don't even know how it started, but in the course of the struggle there started this

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

unfortunate conflict, which resulted in violence, and I suppose the British Government - - in fact I shouldn't say suppose - - the British Government carrying out what a government always thinks is its

duty, started to suppress the Kikuyu people and used very harsh measures in doing so. Further, I do per-sonally believe the reports that came through, that the Kikuyu people themselves also did indulge in violence, not only against the white people - - in fact I think at first most of the violence seems to have been directed against what one might call the corroborators . . . now I cannot say to what extent my oolleagUes would agree with the view that I give, "but that there was a violent conflict in Kenya is accepted, and leaving aside the question of the methods used the Kikuyu people had a legitimate claim which they were making, and to that extent we have - - in fact in some of my messages I've said, well, the British Government should not go ahead oppressing people even to the extent of being ruthless in trying to sup-press them. The key is to accord people their legiti-mate demands. I have said so, I think, in some of my statements.

Yes. RUMPFF J: Who started the violence?—

I have said, my lord, that I am not acquainted with who started the violence.

MR. MAISELS: Does everyone in the A.N.C. - - well, perhaps before we go to that, whoever started the violence, do you deplore it, or think it was right - whoever started the fight?— No, I have already said

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

that we regret the violence. We very much regret the violence, my lords.

Does everyone in the A.N.C. believe in the existence of the Mau Man as such?— No, I think that there are different views; maybe the expression Mau Mau was just a fictious thing and never existed, but it's used as an excuse for having attacked,the Kikuyus.

The A.N.C. did they ever endorse the violent methods used by these Mau Mau ? — No, "they have never.

The Kikuyu, or anybody else?— No. As I've said earlier, my lords, I think I have quite officially said that we regret the violence that took place there.

(COURT ADJOURNED UNTIL 2.15 P.M)

11617 A.J LUTHULI

ON THE COURT RESUMING AT 2.15 P.M. 1

MR, MAISELS: I now * ant to talk to you about the Peace Movement; do you know anything at all about the Peace Movement, Mr. Luthuli?— Yes, I do.

What do you know about it?— I know that there is a World Peace Movement and here we have a Peace Council.

Have you yourself joined it in any way?— No, I've not joined it.

What are your own ideas with regard to the Peace Movement?— I think a peace movement pursues a course that is very necessary because peace would always be nicer than war and anyone who uses his influence in the direction *f establishing peace between nations is doing a very im-portant task.

Now, were you invited to attend and International Conference of the World Peace Movement?— That is so. ^

Did you accept that invitation?— I did not accept the invitation.

Why not?— For two reasons: one, I think at the time I was banned, but even if I had not been banned I would not have attended because my own felling is this, that when you are Leader of a large organisation you may co-operate with other organisations but when you start joining them then your own followers might get confused, so I like as far as possible - - I don't say I wouldn't belong to other organisations - - but I like to stick 25 politically to the African National Congress

Do you receive literature from the - or did you receive, I don't know if you still do - literature from the World Peace Movement, or the S.A.Peace Council?— I do, my lords. 30

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

Do you read it?— Occasionally one just takes it and reads it, "but most of the time not.

Why not?— Well- we get so many publications coming to us from all over that one really would not have time to read them all; you just glance at some; some-times you come across a particular article and you read it - or a particular page

Have you anything yourself against the Peace Movement as such9-_ No, no, I haven't at all.

Now let's . . . 9 — In fact I have addressed the Peace Council here.

Yes. We'll pass from that now to another as-pect of the case. You've already told their lordships that the A.N.C, is an open organisation and every African over the age of 17 is eligible to join?— That is so

Now, has the A.N.C. power to refuse member-ship to an African; has it the right to do so if it wishes? — It has, constitutionally it has the right.

But is there in fact to your knowledge any screening process?— No

And in normal practice what would be the posi-tion in regard to an African applying to join a branch; would he be accepted or not?— The normal thing is that he would be accepted.

Now, evidence was given at the trial of Sisulu and Others in connection with the Defiance Campaign by a detective who had become a member of the Transvaal Executive of the A.N.C. I think that evidence was given in this case also by Mr. Moeller who recalled that fact. I'm just giving you the facts. Does it surprise you that a detective was able to become a member of the

r*

11619 A,J.LUTHULI

Transvaal Executive of the A.N.C?— No, it wouldn't 1 surprise me.

And when I say detective, I mean a person who is a detective and who was taking hack to the police the information that he may receive in the African National Congress?— It wouldn't surprise me at all. 5

Is there anything to prevent any such person from becoming a member of the African National Congress ? — Well, that person joining under normal circumstances - we wouldn't know his other affiliations and so he would normally join. 10

Would you be surprised to find that there were no police informers in the A.N.C?— Well, in a way I think I would be surprised if I thought that there were

any. Not that I would invite them, but if I sud-denly found there was an informer it wouldn't surprise 15 me because the manner in which these people join.

In fact you'd be surprised if there were not s*me police informers in the A.N.C?— It would surprise me if there weren't any.

That's right. Now you have disciplinary pow- 20 ers in the African National Congress, according to your Constitution?— Yes, we have.

And I think you gave instances earlier in your evidence of wheh these powers were used; are they often used?— To my knowledge, not. It's only at National 25 level. . . „ .

In the whole of your experience of the A.N.C, how many people do you know have been expelled from that body?— Well, I can only recall the immediate cases - there were one or two before, but I only re- 30 call the two . . ..

1 1 6 0 1 . A.J.LUTHULI

What were these two; what were they expelled for?— They were expelled for violating one of our re-quirements, namely this, that members are free, within Congress forums, to criticise Congress in any way they desire, "but a member may not send outside, or go out-side of Congress forums to do so. Now, the two men that I'm referring to - Masina and Debalo (?)(?) had during a campaign - a stay at home campaign that we were organising - - written quite extensively in the Press criticising the actions of the A.N.C. and criticising us in rather harsh terms I didn't mind the harsh terms at all, but they took up a very antagonistic attitude towards us, whereas they had a forum. They were told of that fact, but they continued to do so, and we found it necessary to expel them.

Now if it became known that anyone was advocating a policy of violence, what would the attitude of the A.N.C. be?— The attitude of the A.N.C. would be to call that person, draw his attention to the fact that he is working against policy and expect him to change, and if that person continued to advocate a policy contrary to that of the organisation - - in this case advocating violence - - he would end up by being disciplined, for violating policy of Congress and expelled.

In general do you try to encourage expulsion?— Oh, no, my lords, we don't encourage expulsion.

Now, what do you try to do instead of encourag-ing expulsion?— Well, instead of encouraging expulsion we try as much as we can to educate people on Congress policy and outlook, and as I have already said if a person should violate any Congress procedure, we warn

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

him and of course if he doesn't heed our warning, he has himself to blame.

Now, the Crown alleges that after 1950 Com-munists infiltrated into the African National Congress; t hat is one of the allegations in this case. Now, if the word 'infiltration' is meant secret - - joining secretly, would you agree to that?— I wouldn't agree. People can just join, of course, but I don't quite like the word 'infiltration' - as if one comes in through the back door . . .

Do you yourself know of any Communist who joined the African National Congress only after the Com-munist Party was dissolved in 1950?— My lord, I don't know of any Communist who joined after it was dissolved in 1950. All I know are those that were members of Con-gress before then.

But in any event would a person have been re-fused membership because he was a Communist or non-Communist?— He would not have been refused.

Is there any interrogation of applicants for membership to find out their political views?— No, there is no interrogation. I think I should here stress that we have the provisions in the Constitution but in a mass movement for one thing - - because we are a mass movement - - it is extremely difficult; I mean the provisions are there to enable us to do so where necessary . . . .

No//, Mr. Luthuli, the present machinery of co-operation in the Congress Movement we've heard is the National Consultative Committee9-- That is so.

Is that body a policy making body?— No,

11601. A.J.LUTHULI

What kind of a "body is it?— It is purely a co-ordinating "body.

Can the National Consultative Committee impose its will on any of the Congresses?— No, my lord.

Is it a substitute for the Executives of the Con-gresses?-- No, it is not. I would add, to clarify the position, - as I say it is a co-ordinating body; it might recommend something, just as a thing can come from the Congresses,, but each Congress retains its power to decide. We have what we call the Joint Executive com-ing together, to consult on things, but even at the stage where the Joint Executive meets together and have taken a decision - if for any reason one organisation should feel that well, though the Joint Executive has decided, as an organisation we really don't agree with it - - then that organisation is quite free not to take part. It's a Joint Executive really but each Congress still retains its own authority - - the consultative is purely co-ordinative.

And consequently no organisation is bound by what is called a majority decision?— No.

Now, I want to deal specifically, as far as the African National Congress is concerned, with since 1949. What has been the African National congress' attitude in regard to the apartheid policy of the Government that has been in power in South Africa since 1949?— The African National Congress opposed the apartheid policy of the Nationalist Party Government.

Do you distinguish between the Government since 1948, the beginning of 1949, and Government prior to that time, insofar as Colour bar and racial discri-mination

Collection: 1956 Treason Trial Collection number: AD1812

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