1

2 IN RE:

3 EPA PULIC MEETING , T ITTABAWASSEE RIVER, Segments 4 & 5

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9 Meet ing held on the 19th day of October, 2 0 1 6

1 0 at Arrowwood E lementary School , 5 4 1 0 Seidel Road Saginaw ,

11 Michi gan a t 6: 3 0 p . m .

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1 4 APPEARANCES:

1 5 D iane Russell, EPA Community Involvement Coordinator

1 6 Mary Logan, EPA Project Manager

17 Al Taylor , MDEQ Proj ect Manager

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Reported by: Robin Alvis Doan , CSR 5 6 5 0 Cert i fied Shorthand Reporter ( 9 8 9) 2 7 4 - 1 9 8 2

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1 Saginaw, Michigan

2 Wednesda y , October 1 9th, 2 0 1 6 - 6 : 3 0 p . m .

3 MS . RUSSELL: All right . I think we'll get

4 sta rted and a s folks trickle in we ' l l j u st have them get

5 oriented here . So tonight , the purpose of t oni ght's meet ing

6 the Environment a l Protection Agency i s putting out , they put

7 out the i r proposed plan for the clean-up o f the next segment

8 o f the r i ver which we ' re calling Segments 4 & 5 .

9 We have, you may have received a facts s heet in the

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1 0 ma i l , but i f you didn't there's some a t the green table. But

1 1 i t has a good map here i n the front where i t kind o f shows

1 2 you whereabouts that i s . So Segments 4 & 5 , our proposed

1 3 clean-up p l a n , t h i s fact sheet a l s o det a i l s - - s o i f you

1 4 l i sten t o tonight's presenta t i on and want t o t a ke some

1 5 materi a l home t h i s would be a good s ummary o f that, that

16 informat ion .

17 Tonight also we have a court reporter here to help us

18 col lect any verbal comment s that anyone want s to make .

1 9 We ' re i n a pub l i c comment peri od for our propo sed pla n , so

2 0 we ' re t a king communi t y input on what we ' re p ropos ing . And

2 1 you ' re wel come t o , at the, once we do a present ation and

2 2 you ' l l have a chance for quest ions . And certa inly t a ke that

2 3 opportun i t y t o a s k your quest i ons at that t ime and then we ' l l

2 4 t a ke a f ive minute brea k t o get set u p for the publ i c comment

2 5 portion o f our meet ing .

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1 Now , we will not be able to a nswer questions during that

2 time . So make sure i f you have any ques tion s , you won ' t need

3 any clari fication s , that you do it before the public comment

4 portion begins .

5 With that because we have a court reporter and we a re

6 going , s he ' s going to be t a king down a l l of the meet ing i f

7 you do have a question i f you can j ust make s ure you state

8 your name and, for the court reporter a nd be very clear in

9 your spea king . And then also if you can s ilence your cel l

1 0 phones a nd other media devices that w i l l a l so be helpful to

11 make sure things remain clea r .

12 So with that to stay on agenda I'll ma ke a few

1 3 introductions . First myself I'm Diane Russel l , I ' m the

1 4 Environment al Protection Agency's community i nvolvement

15 coordinator who i s stationed locally in an o f fice in Flint .

16 And Mary Logan is a l so E PA , i s our remedi a l proj ect manager

17 and she'll be giving tonight's presentation and answering

1 8 many o f your quest i ons .

1 9 We also have Al Taylor with the Michi gan Department of

20 Envi ronmenta l Quality here to also say a few things and be

2 1 ava i l able for questions and a l so with u s tonight i s

22 Dave Somers ( ph) with the Community Adv i sory Group . Our

2 3 group o f local res ident s who we meet with every other month

2 4 to t a l k about the p roj ect and j ust get feedback and general

2 5 informat ion back and forth between u s and the community, so

1 he is a l s o here . I f you ' re interested membership he can

2 answer those questions or anything else you wanted to know

3 about the Community Advisory Group .

4 So with that I ' m going to go ahead and pass i t over to

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5 Mary Logan to start with her presentation and t a l k about what

6 we ' re propo s i ng for Segments 4 & 5 .

7 MS . LOGAN : Thank you , Diane . So I haven ' t

8 played with this so I don ' t know am I coming across l oud

9 enough, too l oud? Oka y . Wel l , thank you for the folks that

10 have come out tonight to hear the presenta t i on . I ' ve got

11 several s lides , I ' m going to try to exp l a i n some rather

12 complicated i nformation hopeful l y in p l a i n l a nguage so that

1 3 you all unders tand what EPA i s proposing . And then a s Diane

1 4 said you have a n opportunity t o comment on our p roposal

1 5 before we f i n a l ize our clean-up plan .

1 6 So under the Super Fund EPA i s working with MDEQ and we

17 a re working i n a n upstream to downstream fashion to clean up

18 historical legacy waste . The Super Fund portion o f the

1 9 Tittabawas see River starts where the Chippewa intersects the

20 Tittabawas see and it extends for 24 mi les downstream .

21 Because that ' s a long stretch to deal with we chopped up

22 the proj ect into what we c a l l segments, you see them in the

23 darker b l ue and the l i ghter blue . Segments a re about three

24 to four mi les each and we're methodi c a l l y working upstream to

2 5 downs t ream .

1 So tonight we ' re tal king about the clean-up in Segment s

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2 4 & 5 or proposed clean-up in Segment s 4 & 5 . So we're about

3 halfway down the river once we complete Segment 3 this yea r ,

4 that ' s about 1 1 and a h a l f miles down. And we ' l l be working

5 on Segment s 4 & 5 , we'll get sta rted in 2 0 17 and t hen we will

6 be moving on to Segments 6 and 7 to finish up the

7 Tittabawassee .

8 The clean-ups that we are proposing a re on t argeted

9 a reas we call Sediment Management Area s and Bank Management

1 0 Area s . So it ' s not a l l o f the sediment o r a l l o f the banks

1 1 wi thin these two stretches , but they ' re very targeted and

1 2 we ' re going to t a l k about speci fica l l y those Bank Management

1 3 Areas and Sediment Management Areas.

1 4 What E PA ' s propos ing there a re 1 6 Ban k Management Area s

1 5 six of them a re in Segment 4 and 1 0 of them a re i n Segment 5 .

1 6 And for a l l of those banks we are proposing to stab i l i ze the

17 riverban ks .

1 8 There a re two sediment a reas that we ta rgeted, they ' re

1 9 both i n Segment 5 . For Sediment Management Area 5 - 1 we ' re

2 0 proposing a combinat ion clean-up that would include remova l

2 1 of some of the contaminated soi l , covering or capping some of

2 2 the a reas and then let t ing nature or natural recovery t a ke

2 3 care o f contamination that's a l ready buried . And t hen for

2 4 Sediment Management Area 5-2 we ' re proposing capping that

2 5 material.

1 And I ' m going to get into the det a i l s later in the

2 presenta t i o n , but I'm going to g ive you some bac kground on

3 the technologies that we have available to us and the

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4 t rade-offs that come with tho se before we get into specifics .

5 A l i ttle bit more bac kground on Segments 4 and 5 . So as

6 I said we ' re about 11 and a ha l f mi les down from Midland,

7 some landma rks i s T ittabawassee Road and State Road cross in

8 Segment 4 . T i t t abawassee's a t the bottom of Segment 5, the

9 State Road B ridge crosses the rive r , Imerman Park is pretty

1 0 wel l known and that ' s i n Segment 5 .

11 And then for those of you who have been a round awhi l e

12 there was a c lean-up that was done on an i s land that was

1 3 eroding, I s land MM was removed i n 20 1 1 and some o f you , some

1 4 of you were a round t o hear about that proj ect .

15 Now, I ' m not going to get into a whole lot of det a i l

1 6 tonight , but i n order to get - - E PA working with the state

17 and with Dow has done extensive evaluation of chemical

1 8 information, of stability, we've analyzed the stabil it y of

1 9 both r iverbanks and sediment . And we've done some biological

20 evaluations both of the concentrations that can be found in

2 1 fish t i s sues and a l so of the vegetation that ' s growing along

22 the banks and other things as wel l .

23 So a l l those studies came t ogether and we have s ome very

24 high level key findings . The first one i s that dioxin and

25 especi a l l y furans which i s included i n the dioxins are

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1 identified as contaminants that we are addre s s ing in Segments

2 4 & 5 sediment and bank areas .

3 The dioxins and f urans are not equa l l y distributed

4 throughout the Tittabawas see, we find them rea l l y in very

5 di screet areas . Some o f the areas within the r iver are

6 stable and some are more erosional and so that has factored

7 into our evaluat ion . And then those p iece s came together to

8 help us ident i f y the speci fic Sediment Management Areas and

9 Bank Management Areas .

1 0 So a l i t t l e bit more detail about those . As I mentioned

1 1 there are 1 6 Bank Management Areas they range i n l ength from

1 2 about 1 5 0 feet t o 6 5 0 feet, but altogether i t ' s about 1 . 1

1 3 mi les of bank that we're propos i ng t o s tab i l ize . And each o f

1 4 t he sediment depos i t s , both of them a r e about seven-tenths of

1 5 an acr e , a l i t t le bit under one acre and they are part of

1 6 ongoing evaluations . So i f we were t o find additional

17 sediment areas or bank areas we would t r y t o factor them into

1 8 the clean-up as appropriate .

19 Now this i s a cartoon, it's in the fact sheet that Diane

20 pointed out to you . So it ' s pretty generic , but i t gives you

21 a l ittle bit o f dissertation of where we're finding the bank

22 and sediment areas that are targeted for clean-up . So the

23 orange l ines here are depicting breaks in the segments . So

24 this i s part of Segment 4 and this i s Segment 5 and you can

2 5 see the den s i t y of banks i n Segment 5 as we move downs tream .

1 Big question why are we cleaning up and the very simple

2 answer i s that if these areas of sediment deposits or the

3 bank areas were to erode because they have l evels of dioxins

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4 and furans they could contribute to that contamination and to

5 the sediments that ' s around them and then further downs t ream .

6 And then as that contaminant i s added to the sediment it

7 could bui l d up or bioaccumulate in fish t i s sue, so that if

8 peop l e or animals were to eat those f i s h they might be

9 expos ed to contaminants .

1 0 S o I'm goin g , because we have so many Bank Management

1 1 Areas I ' m going to talk about the Bank Management Areas first

12 and I ' m going to tal k about the technologies we have and then

1 3 some o f the t rade-offs that come with t hose . For the banks

1 4 we really have two options , one of them i s stab i l i zat ion and

1 5 that relies on engineered and natural elements t o stab i l i z e

1 6 and prevent or mitigate erosion . Native vegetation because

17 it creates deep roots and really protects the bank i s always

1 8 a component and then there may be other element s o f

1 9 engineering components as wel l .

2 0 The second technology we have for banks is removal of

2 1 the ban ks . And that j ust is what i t says you bring i n heavy

2 2 equipment , you dig up the area, you have t o cut i t back,

2 3 s lope i t back and then you di spose of the materials at off

2 4 site locations .

2 5 So for stab i l i zat ion there ' s some advantages and

1 dis advantages and limitati ons s imi lar for removal . And I ' m

2 going to tal k about those because at the end o f the day the

3 agencies have to look at the t rade-offs then come up with

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4 clean-up options and balance the t rade-offs to t r y to come up

5 with a proposed opt ion that we ult imately select .

6 So for stab i l i zat ion some of the advantages are that it

7 is less des t ructive, the cons tructi on i s much less invas ive .

8 That t here are less changes to the existing, to t he exist i ng

9 propert y and i t s boundary and less changes to the riverbank

1 0 shape . I t also actual l y improves habitat quality because

1 1 we ' re putt ing nat ive plantings that belong there and a lot o f

1 2 our banks currently are overrun with grapevines or poi son

1 3 ivy, things l i ke that . So we are really improving the

1 4 habitat quite a b i t where the stabilized , the native

1 5 vegetation i s going in then finally i t i s cost effect ive to

1 6 do t hi s .

17 Now, some o f the l imitations are that because the

1 8 contaminat ion rema ins in the banks there are s ome things that

1 9 have to be done. For example there has to be l ong-term

2 0 monitoring and possibly maintenance t o ensure the

2 1 stabili zation i s working . The native vegetation takes

2 2 approximately two or three years and sometimes a little bit

2 3 more t o really t a ke root . So there has t o be more

2 4 maintenance in the short-term, we have t o work with the

2 5 property owner t o water the plantings and t o make sure that

1 the proper plants are taking . And then the contaminants

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2 because t he y ' re there i s they have to be monitored over t ime .

3 So I've got a couple pictures for fol ks , some o f you

4 have seen some of this and some of you may not have . But

5 these are s ome pictures of bank stabi l i zation proj ects that

6 have gone on i n the past couple of years . There has been

7 about t hree mil e s of banks that have been stabili zed a l ready

8 along the T i t tabawassee and we are monitoring those and

9 showing pretty good results with a l l the banks that have been

1 0 stabili zed for the most part .

1 1 S o t he process includes ta king the exist ing vegetation

12 off the ban k , sometime s there ' s reshaping that's involved

1 3 with that t o get an appropriate ang l e . And then i f

14 engineered mat e r i a l would need to be placed they're placed

1 5 down . I don ' t have a picture of i t because I took i t out ,

1 6 but there's also t he fabric that ' s put down then the native

17 plants are either seeded or plugged .

1 8 First year you can see a cover crop, looks l i ke gra s s ,

1 9 but I ' m going t o show you i n a minute the end result . I

20 threw this picture in because this was something that was

2 1 tried t h i s year . Really this was a relative l y stable bank .

2 2 We were t r y ing t o use natural material either s t raw o r hay

2 3 bales and l og s t o stabilize the toe of the ban k , s o we're

2 4 t rying t o use as much natural approach a s i s appropriate .

2 5 Now, this i s what we're real l y going for . After a few

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1 years we want to get this deep rooted native vegetation well

2 establi shed along the banks because that way it can stand up

3 really effectively to the kinds of things that could cause

4 erosion if this vegetation wasn ' t there .

5 The other option that we tal ked about for the riverbank

6 is r i ve rbank removal and there are some advantages and

7 limitations with that as wel l . The advantages are primarily

8 that it ' s least uncertain because the contamination i s

9 removed, so that you know that there i s not going to be

10 erosion or cont ribut ion from that bank any l onger to the

11 river . It also provides flexibility for use of the land .

1 2 However there ' s some l imitations a s wel l . One of the

1 3 l imitations is there i s s i gnifi cant d i s rupt ion during the

1 4 construct ion . I t ' s a very, very, very, very big engineering

1 5 project t o remove r i verbanks . I t removes the existing

1 6 habitat and there is an attempt to replace and restore i t ,

17 but the habitat will change . There are s i gnificant changes

1 8 to the riverbank shape and the property shape and angle and

19 the slope .

2 0 I t could cause, b y changing the bank i n one area it

2 1 could cau s e i nadvertent changes in others because the river

2 2 flow might change a l ittle bit and cause erosion where we

2 3 hadn ' t seen i t before . And then finally implementation i s

2 4 usually more cost ly and complex . But w e have done riverbank

2 5 removal along the river, so there ' s some pictures for that .

1 The first step i s removing the existing vegetat ion ,

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2 clear out the are a . It ' s real l y hard for me to explain these

3 picture s , but this is the riverban k and it has to be cut back

4 on an angl e that ' s stable . So you can see the const ruct ion

5 equipment way over here in the distance and this gives you a

6 feel for how much land i s affected by a riverbank removal

7 pro j ect . This picture again i s trying to, the slope shows

8 you how deep some of the material that was removed i s . And

9 again it ' s j ust a very big proj ect, but it does permanent l y

1 0 remove t he contaminants as wel l .

1 1 S o f o r t h i s particular project here ' s some aerial

1 2 photos . I t was a heavi l y wooded area before work was started

1 3 and s o as part of that process quite a bit of land was opened

1 4 up, there were more than 3 0 0 matu re trees removed . But i t is

15 nowadays i t ' s actual l y a very nice meadow that was planted

1 6 with nat ive vegetat ion as well and there ' s smal ler trees

1 7 growing u p i n there . Very different than the forest i t was,

18 but it i s corning back as a nice fore s t , young forest and

1 9 meadow .

2 0 So E PA has recommended via the opt ions as I tal ked about

2 1 earlier to s tabi l ize the banks . We think that the , some of

2 2 the con s ideration that we have i s we have met with a number

2 3 of the property owners and we expect that the vested property

2 4 owners w i l l f ind stabil ization more acceptable than bank

2 5 removal . The t rade-offs that we talked about in terms of the

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1 short and long-term impacts to the habitat are a s ignificant

2 consideration for EPA .

3 We b e l ieve that t here may be potential impacts on some

4 of the other areas that we woul d l i ke to avoid and we bel ieve

5 stabil i zat ion helps that. And then we also think we ' l l have

6 better ability to get access and to maintain i n t he long-term

7 stabi l i zed banks from some of the owners then fina l l y we

8 believe it's cost effective. And I wanted to s a y both bank

9 a l ternatives have been done succe s s fully i n d i f ferent p l a ces

1 0 i n the r iver.

11 So now moving on to the Sediment Management Area and

12 there's onl y two of them and I ' m going to t a l k about the

1 3 options. And I s aved these for last because even though

14 there's onl y two these are a l ittle bit more comp lex in my

1 5 mind, so bear with me I'm going to be stepping through each

1 6 one of them .

17 Technologies we have for cleaning up sediment include

18 monitored natural recover y which relies on natural proces ses

1 9 to reduce or e l iminate ris ks. And those could be by burial ,

2 0 i t could be b y mixing, b y chemical changes i n our case i t

2 1 wi l l be most l i kely by mixing the bur i a l of t he exist ing

2 2 contaminant .

2 3 Capping i s a proces s that i nvolves t a king materials

24 whether it ' s a rbor stone or s and and p l a cing i t on top of t he

2 5 under l ying contaminated depos it or sequester and isolate that

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1 contaminat ion , so it's no longer available to the fish or no

2 longer ava i lable to move down the river.

3 And we got , I ' m going to t a l k about it a s we l l . We got

4 a pretty i nnovated approach c a ll ed a CCS or Cel lu l a r

5 Contaminant System cap that we ' ve used, I've got some

6 pictures of that . And the removal again you use heavy

7 equipment and you can do it either i n wet conditions or dry

8 condit ions , but you get in and get the sediment depos it out

9 of the rive r .

1 0 So for the purposes o f the two Sediment Management Areas

1 1 w e have the Sediment Management Area 5 - 2 - - each o f those

12 technologies I j ust t a l ked about is a s t anda lone a l ternative ,

13 so either monitored natural recover y , capping or removal i s

14 its own alternat ive .

1 5 For Sediment Management Area 5-1 w e have combined those

1 6 a l ternat ives and each o f the a lternatives include some

1 7 component of monitored natural recovery . Because a part of

18 that Sediment Management Area the contaminant's a l ready

1 9 buried between two to four feet of s ediment , s o we felt that

2 0 we could l eave that in place and monitor i t . And i f i t

2 1 continues t o be s equestered fine i f it doe sn ' t we would

2 2 re-eva l uate whether additional clean-up might be nece s sary .

23 Al l r ight , again I'm going to go through the

24 technologi e s and the l imitat ions and advantage s . Monitored

2 5 natural recovery it ' s very noninvas ive . You ' re j ust

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monitoring, so you don ' t have the heavy equipme n t , you don't

have any construction so you can get i n you can get i t done

eas i l y . I t protects whatever existing hab i t at there i s and

there ' s no in frastructure and i t's t ypical l y l ow

implementation cos t .

The l imit ations are that the contaminants remain in

place . I t can be s lower to achi eve ris k reduct i on compared

to act ive a l t e rnatives particularly i f the contaminant l ayer

is closer to the sediment and it might be subj ect to erosion

over t ime i t could be a s l owe r p roces s . And then long-term

monitoring i s needed and we may ultima t e l y need to switch to

an active remedy . I don't have pictures o f moni tored natural

recovery because i t's moni toring p i cture s .

Capping the advantages and l imitations i s di rect r i s k

reduct ion . Once you put the cap material i n place it

contro l s the underlying contamination, there's l e s s

infrast ructure and dis ruption a s compared to removal. It can

actua l l y improve habitat quality i n the rive r . This river is

very s andy , it has very l ittle submerged aquatic vegetation,

so s t abi l i z ing the area can help that habitat to change a

l i t t le bit and it's cost e f fective .

The flip-s ide and l imitations are that the contaminants

remain in p l a c e , that you need to do l ong-term monitoring and

maintenance could be required on the caps to continue to ma ke

them effect ive .

1 So some pictures , here ' s the traditional cap and sand

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2 stone cappin g . And i f you notice from the pictures the river

3 that we ' re dealing with i s very shallow . So we actual l y have

4 occa sions where trucks can drive i n , t a ke the capping

5 materials and t hen have it put right in p lace where i t ' s

6 needed .

7 This i s the Cellular Contaminant System cap I was

8 t a l king about and this geoweb or grid shape materia l i s it

9 a long the bottom . And in our river we have a lot of s and

1 0 moving i n from ups tream, so that shape here was the cap that

1 1 was put i n place and the tan i s the sand that ' s f i lling i n

12 the grid . And the grid will rema i n i n p l ace and i solate the

13 contaminat ion underneath it . This i s , you can see from these

1 4 p ictures i t ' s a very l abor intens ive approac h , but i t has

1 5 very , very minimal construction equipment a s sociated with it .

1 6 And then dredging, there are two approaches with

1 7 dredging like I s aid wet and dry removal . But the advantages

1 8 are that i t removes the contaminants from the r iver, that

1 9 it ' s the least uncertain approach i f you're able t o get good

2 0 result and get most o f the contamination out . And then i t ' s

21 rapid r i s k reduct ion again because you can get most o f the

2 2 contaminat ion out .

23 The l imi tations are that there ' s an awful lot of

2 4 i nfrastructure both i n the river and adj acent t o the river a s

2 5 needed to implement dredging o r removal . And then i f you

1 have s i t ua tions in the river where you cannot get a l l the

2 contaminat ion out you might have what ' s called res idual s or

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3 resuspension and that i s some veneer of contamination that i s

4 left behind that has to be considered . And dredging/removal

5 i s the most cos t l y and complex of the alternatives we

6 exerci se .

7 So some pictures of wet removal and again we ' ve done

8 both of the approaches wet and dry removal on the rive r ,

9 we ' ve done both of them succe s s ful l y . So here are some

1 0 p ictures . I want to point out this one , a s I mentioned to

11 you i t's a lot of infrast ructure . I f you have wet sediment

12 you have to have a place to stage them and dry them so they

13 can be t rucked off site .

1 4 S o you need to have some place on land where you can

1 5 build that fac i l i t y , you have t o put the contaminated

1 6 sediment i n t rucks and remove it . And then i n some cases the

1 7 area is i solated behind sheet piles a s t h e work is done.

18 Now here ' s what we've been doing more recent l y , we have

19 been doing remov a l activity in dry conditions . So that

2 0 involves installing a w a l l of sheet p i l e and then pumping the

2 1 water out of the a rea so that the materials can be removed

2 2 right from the areas i n dry condit ions .

2 3 I n this case the t rucks could come drive right i n be

2 4 loaded then drive off for disposal . So what has to occur

2 5 with that though is you have to have the r ight conditions in

1 order to be able to i solate the area and dry it out .

2 So a s I've said before our recommended option for

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3 Sediment Management Area 5 - 1 i s a combination a l ternative and

4 for Sediment Management Area 5 - 2 would be capping . The

5 maj or , the considerations that E PA thought of was that we

6 evaluated where the contamination was within the sediment

7 profi l e , whether it was near the surface or if it was deepe r .

8 We looked a t whether the a rea was re lat ively stable or

9 whether there was less stabi l i t y and more l i kely for the

1 0 depo s i t t o erode . We considered whether t here was other work

1 1 that was needed and w e a l s o looked at some o f the

12 implementation challenges such as whether we had room on the

1 3 land t o do the staging o r t o get acces s . And t hen water

1 4 depth and con s t ruct ion i s sues and I ' m going t o t a l k about

1 5 that in particular related to SMA 5 - 1 .

16 So these are complicated, I apologize I know that you

17 guys are not used to looking at figures l ike this. But

18 essent i a l l y here ' s the river edge s , the river sand is not

1 9 green o r blue what this i s showing i s the dep t h , the depth of

2 0 the water over the depos i t o r really the e levation o f the

2 1 deposit itsel f .

2 2 S o this i s showing Sediment Management Area 5 - 2 , I ' m

2 3 starting with that one because it ' s easier . A relatively

2 4 f l at area , it ' s relatively adj acent t o the s ho rel ine and the

2 5 dioxin i s current l y buried beneath a foot t o a foot and a

19

1 hal f or more o f clean sediment . So we ' re proposing to put a

2 cap on thi s , i t w ill l i kely be a CCS cap . And we w i ll build

3 access from the road, that t a kes about 1 7 0 0 feet from the

4 roadway .

5 Now thi s is a Google Earth shot that I pulled and then I

6 kind of hand drew i n , the orange is our various Bank

7 Management Areas and blue i s the Sediment Management Are a s ,

8 so this is approximate . But Sediment Management Area 5-2 is

9 di rect l y adjacent to one o f the bank areas . So from a

1 0 construction point-o f-view i t would b e very e a s y i f we ' re

1 1 stabi l i z ing this bank o r doing some other work t o work on

12 put t ing capping material in along here . And because it ' s

1 3 a l ready buried we thin k that that w i ll be a very safe and

1 4 good solution for thi s a rea .

1 5 Here ' s the compl i cated one , 5 - 1 . Sediment Management

1 6 Area 5 - 1 h a s a curve i n the rive r , i t i s l ong but the dioxin

17 varies qui t e a b i t where it ' s l ocated . It's not near another

18 work area , so we can ' t double up and s a y we're getting

19 bene f i t .

2 0 So i n this part of, the center channel and down here the

2 1 contaminat ion i s buried below about four feet here and more

2 2 than two feet here . S o those are the areas that we ' re

2 3 proposing moni tored natural recovery because we bel ieve

2 4 burial has a l ready helped that proce s s .

2 5 We are proposing t o remove the center part because this

1 area has cont aminat ion quite near the surface . And this i s

2 an area where we do see some erosion, so we think i f we can

3 get that contamination out it will be benefici a l . And then

4 this area i s deeper water, so we have construct ion issues .

2 0

5 We cannot s a fely put in sheet p i l ing and do this work in dry

6 condit ions because o f some of the s a fety i s sues with the

7 water pres sures that would occur on that cel l . And so we are

8 proposing to do an arbor cap on that part of the S ediment

9 Management Area .

1 0 This i s again another comp l i cated figure , but it shows

11 conceptual mode l s of the arbor cap , the removal port ions and

1 2 the monitored natural recovery port ions . And again just sort

1 3 o f a Google Earth t o show you this i s a prett y isolated area .

1 4 While t here ' s some open area s where w e could cut t hrough

1 5 there ' s heavily wooded areas and s o w e don ' t have a really

16 upland staging area where we cou ld put wet sediment to handle

1 7 it without cutting down a lot of trees.

18 So changing gears here , selecting a final clean-up plan .

1 9 W e a lready went through the proposed opt ions t h i s is j ust

2 0 reiterating t hem . We look a t three evaluat ion criteria ,

21 e f fectivene s s , implementabi l i t y and cost and within those we

2 2 have subcr i t e ri a . S o e f fectiveness ma ke sure it protects

2 3 human l i f e and comp l i es with l aws and regulations, but we ' re

2 4 a l so l oo king a t the trade-offs between the short and

2 5 long-term impacts and a f fects that t h i s remedy would have .

1 For implementab i l i t y we look at how difficult would i t

2 be to complete the remedy and would the owners of the

21

3 properties and would the community accept it . So part of our

4 proces s tonight i s to hear community acceptance .

5 And then cos t , back to the proposed clean-up that we're

6 proposing here tonight cos t s between $ 5 . 2 and $ 6 mil lion .

7 THE SPEAKER : Who ' s paying that?

8 MS . LOGAN : Dow Chemi cal would be paying that

9 cos t .

1 0 S o we bel ieve our recommended a l t e rnatives are the best .

1 1 They provide the best long-term and short -term e f fect ivenes s

12 and trade-offs and minimi ze s hort-term impact and they can be

1 3 bui l t and are reliable t o maintain . And i n the fact sheet

1 4 there ' s a l i t t le bit more deta i l about our analys is on thos e .

15 So the pub l i c proce s s , we develop clean-up option s ,

1 6 right now we ' re i n the public comment period . So we proposed

17 a clean-up plan, we're at the public meeting here tonight.

1 8 You do have a n option to provide written comment s , I know

1 9 some of you have done that a l ready , but you can a l so provide

2 0 ora l comments tonight that the court s tenographer can take .

21 And t hen EPA working with DEQ will review t he pub l i c comments

22 and will select a final clean-up p l a n .

2 3 So the pub l i c comment period , Diane I ' m sure wil l go

2 4 over this again, will conclude on November 6th . He re a re the

2 5 ways that you can submit this - I think these methods are

1 a l so i n our facts sheet - and so there ' s a lot of ways you

2 can submit your comment s .

3 Next step as I mentioned we ' l l work with DEQ to review

4 the comment s , the plan could change based on comments we

5 rece ive , so we w i l l carefully cons ider comments before we

6 final ize the plan . Dow w i l l design the remedies and they

2 2

7 w i l l work with the af fected property owners to ma ke sure that

8 the owners are f u l l y in the loop about implementat ion , a l l

9 the det a i l s . And we expect the work to begin by Dow start ing

1 0 i n 2 0 1 7 and that w e would expect this t o b e a two year

11 c lean-up process , so the construction in 2 0 1 7 and 2 0 1 8 .

12 This i s , I wish it was a little more up-to-date because

13 we did work in 2 0 15 and 2 0 1 6 , but I j ust wanted to conclude

1 4 E PA i s real l y proud and eager t o continue t o wor k . We ' ve had

15 act ive clean-up many years in a row and we con t inue , we are

1 6 committed to continuing to do that . S o the proposals tonight

1 7 are our next steps i n moving alon g .

1 8 W e have done quite a bit o f work a l ready and I can

1 9 answer quest ions about t h a t , but we ' re very proud o f the wor k

2 0 that ' s been done to date and with that that i s the end of my ,

2 1 my presentat ion .

2 2 MS . RUSSELL: Thank you , Mar y . And we ' re

2 3 going to take quest ions in j us t a second, but I wanted to

2 4 g ive Al Taylor of MDEQ an opportunity to addre s s the audience

2 5 tonight and give some informat ion , s o Al .

1 MR . TAYLOR : Thanks , Diane . My name ' s

2 Al Taylor I'm the proj e ct coordinator for the Michigan

3 Department of Envi ronmental Qual i t y . I ' ve been wor king on

23

4 this project with a number of you guys for a long t ime . And

5 one of the things I ' m here to indicate is that the DEQ i s

6 supportive of the p roposed c lean-up opt ions that have been

7 presented .

8 Largel y these are common sense clean-up opt ions and I

9 want to put them in a little bit of context to the overa l l

1 0 proj ect . These banks that are being addressed and these

1 1 Sediment Management Areas they are the area s , banks in

12 part icular which have the greatest mass of dioxin

13 contaminat ion in them and al so the i r s t ab i l i t y i s low . So i t

1 4 makes a t remendous amount of sense to addr e s s those banks

15 becaus e they ' re going to be a continuing source of release to

1 6 the river i f they ' re not stab i l i zed o r removed .

17 As Mary indicated this i s a balance and we're trying

1 8 very hard t o minimize dis ruption t o the river s ystem along

1 9 with gett ing adequate clean-up to be protective and make sure

2 0 the f i s h concent rations of dioxin start dropping i n the

2 1 future.

2 2 I wanted t o make sure you guys understood as part of

23 this p roce s s that addit ional Bank Management Areas in

24 Segment s 2 through 5 at this point may be ident i fied in the

2 5 future and may require remedy . There ' s going t o b e extens ive

1 mon itoring programs of those banks . There i s , there a re

2 other contaminated banks there with mass of dioxin in them,

2 4

3 but they ' re currently stable . I f they become unstable in the

4 future they'll need to be addres sed and i n addit ion i f

5 there ' s not enough re sponse from these clean-up options then

6 additional Bank and Sediment Management Areas may need to be

7 ident i f ied and addressed .

8 This is dea l ing with the worst f i r s t and trying to

9 provide the minimum amount of impact on the r iver system as

10 pos s ib l e . So with that I think this i s a very good clean-up

1 1 process .

12 The other point that I think i s important is long-term

1 3 monitoring i s going t o be nece ssary and is going t o have to

1 4 continue . We're monitoring fish right now and that's going

15 to continue into the future to see if t hose concent rations

1 6 start t o drop . Once this portion o r s i gn i f i cant portion o f

1 7 this work i s done there's something called a residual risk

18 assessment that occurs to see if enough clean-up work has

19 been done to be protective of human health and environment .

20 Based upon that res idual risk assessment additional work may

2 1 be necessary .

2 2 S o other than that I think that ' s a l l t h e comments that

2 3 I have , s o thank you appreciate the opportun i t y . I think

2 4 this w i l l be the last t ime I'll be providing thi s , you ' l l see

2 5 my predecessor u p here for the next one .

1

2

3 much .

MS . LOGAN: Your successor predecessor .

MS . RUSSELL : Thank you, Al , thank you so

4 THE S PEAKER : The ol ' boy ' s coming bac k .

5 MR. TAYLOR : Could be .

6 MS . RUSSELL : O ka y . So with that this is

7 going to, we ' re going to open it up for que st ions . I will

2 5

8 say just a coup l e , s t re s s a couple things. Now ' s the time to

9 a s k your questions because when we t a ke a short break after

10 quest ions we ' re going to then open i t up for public comment

1 1 and we ' re not going to b e able to answer questions during

12 that port ion of the meeting . So now ' s a good t ime to ask

1 3 your que st ions .

1 4 And what I ' l l do i s , you know it's a sma l l crowd , raise

15 your hand I ' l l j ust give you the mike and, or if you want to

1 6 j ust s i t there and s a y your question j ust r a i s e your hand and

1 7 I ' l l c a ll on you and we can get start e d . John, do you want

1 8 to go f i r s t ?

1 9 M R . JOHN TAYLOR: Sure .

2 0

2 1 mike ?

MS . RUSSELL: All right . Do you want the

2 2 M R . JOHN TAYLOR : Yeah, give me t h e mike .

2 3 MS . RUSSELL: All right .

2 4 MR. JOHN TAYLOR : Yes , my name i s John Taylor .

2 5 Some may know me some may not , but I've kind o f been a thorn

1 in Dow ' s ass for 14 years .

2 THE S PEAKER : Hear , hear .

3 M R . JOHN TAYLOR : The big ques t ion right now

4 is a ft e r a l l this remediat ion you're t a l king what do you do

5 after the f i rs t , the next flood? Because the water got

6 within 2 0 feet o f my door three , four years ago after Dow

2 6

7 came out and put a cute little new fire pit right next to my

8 house .

9 I n '8 6 my house was under wate r , so I don't go a long

10 with t his 8 0 year flood thing . I ' m l iving in this ni ghtmare

11 now . So what does EPA do when this f loods again? And be

12 a s sured it will especially with the climate warming we ' re in

13 t rouble .

14 THE S PEAKER : The river ' s so high, so much

15 higher than i t ' s been in the last 2 0 years .

16 M R . JOHN TAYLOR: So if we have another flood

17 j us t think where it's going to go .

18 MS . RUS SELL : So flooding question, Mary, you

19 want to t a ke tha t ? You need the mi ke?

2 0 MS . LOGAN : Thanks for your ques t ion, John .

2 1 We actua l l y a r e not t alking about it here tonight , but I ' l l

2 2 be happy t o answer questions about it . E PA working with DEQ

2 3 i n 2 0 15 ident i fied a clean-up plan for the floodpla in .

2 4 So tonight we're really ta king comments speci fically on

2 5 the banks and sediments in Segments 4 & 5 , but to be

2 7

1 responsive part of what we ' re trying to do a s Al said i s you

2 know these a reas where i f they erode a re cont ributing dioxin

3 and furans to the river . Cutting the source off will improve

4 the over -- or the i ntent ion is to improve t he overa l l

5 quality o f the sediment s in the river . So when it floods in

6 the future we expect the sediments to be cleaner and cleaner

7 over t ime .

8 What we found i s t hat the a reas that f l ooded frequently

9 over the 1 0 0 plus years that the river was contaminated a re

10 the a reas that we ' re t arget ing for the floodplain clean-up .

11 And we ' re looking property by property to see whether each

1 2 property exceeds the clean-up number and i f s o we wil l offer

13 clean-up .

14 Now , to mitigate the concern of recon t aminat i on there

15 has been some s ampling of the f loodpla in a reas that have been

16 cleaned up already . And we have not seen a recontamination

17 problem that wou ld cause additional clean-up , but we are

18 going to expand t hat as part o f the f l oodpl a i n . So we will

1 9 be mon i toring what the flood a f fects are.

2 0 MS . RUS SELL : Thank you . Yes , Al, you want t o

2 1

2 2

add to t ha t ?

MR . TAYLOR : No . Actual l y I want t o j us t , the

2 3 present a t ion t hat Mary gave i s that going t o be up on the

2 4

2 5

website?

MS . RUS SELL: Yes .

1 MR . TAYLOR : Okay . I j us t wanted to veri fy .

2 8

2 MS . RUSSELL : Yes, yes . We do have an updated

3 webs it e , s o . . . We look at each other t h i s way because

4 there ' s j ust some t roubleshooting that happened with making

5 sure that gets up qui ckly . But i n our facts sheet and on the

6 agenda tonight we have a link to our new website and that's

7 where we w i l l be post ing it .

8 And we ' l l be under the topics and focus section i f that

9 means anything t o anyone, probably not - go to the webs i t e ,

1 0 but t hat ' s where we ' re going to b e placing it . Bas ically

11 when you enter the website it will take you to a page and it

12 will be on the front page and there w i l l be a link to another

1 3 subsect ion cal led topics and focus, so .

1 4 MR . TAYLOR : I found, because I had great

15 nonsuccess with getting to it s ince E PA changed its format,

1 6 i f you j ust Google Tittabawas see River and EPA i t will, w i l l

17 take you r i ght to, it's one o f the top two .

1 8 MS . RUSSELL : Good, yeah . And I also know

1 9 somet imes when you click on the l i n ks because we ' re upgrading

2 0 and updat ing the website sometimes you w i l l c l i c k on a

2 1 document and i t w i l l say it ' s not available , but i f you check

2 2 l i ke 1 0 minutes later i t i s . S o j ust b e aware o f t hat also .

2 3 So i f you don ' t get i t it ' s not that i t ' s not there i t ' s

2 4 j ust maybe you have , have t o cross your fingers when you do

2 5 i t next t ime and i t will happen . S o I apologize for that .

2 9

1 I t ' s not anything that you guys all should be having to deal

2 with . We do have teams you know working out the kinks here ,

3 but hopefully a s we work this out we ' ll actua l l y have a

4 better webs ite than we had before and upgraded technology, so

5 appreciate your patience with the webs ite . With that did you

6 want to then come back -- oka y .

7 THE SPEAKER : Are there any f i gures on the

8 parts that have al ready been cleaned up and what has been the

9 results of the reduction in the dioxins in these areas? I s

10 i t , are we experiencing a reduction in the actual dioxin

11 leve l s ?

12

13 Mary.

MS . RUS SELL : So previously cleaned up a rea s ,

1 4 MS . LOGAN : As part o f the underlying records

1 5 that we have that support this proposal w e have three

16 different segment s that ' s called a segment specific response

17 proces s . And in that we look at the historical information

18 that was t a ken f rom samples that were l argely t a ken f rom 2006

19 to 2008 and we compare it to what we ' re seeing now .

20 Now, to comp licate matters the way we s ample has changed

2 1 and I don ' t want to get into i t , but we have seen some

2 2 reductions i n the overall average surface sediment levels of

23 dioxin .

2 4 THE SPEAKER : How much, how much o f a

2 5 reduction h a s it been? I mean i f it ' s two percent that's a

1 j oke .

30

2 MS . LOGAN: Two percent probably would not be

3 mea surable quite hones t l y .

4 THE SPEAKER : But you know what I ' m saying,

5

6

please .

MS . LOGAN : I would have to s a y I have not

7 looked at it that way I ' ve loo ked at the overall has it gone

8 down . One of the other things we ' ve seen i s there was a

9 bunch of f i sh t i s sue that was t a ken historica l ly and there

1 0 has been a reducti on i n the f i sh . I don ' t have those figures

1 1 with me t on ight I could try to get tho s e .

1 2 THE SPEAKER : Wel l , I can ( inaudible ) that .

13 But these p laces it will change all of the, a lmost yea rly,

14 yearly according to brea k-up , how ice brea k-up i s . You know

1 5 I ' ve fi shed this fishery for over 3 0 years and watched these

16 holes change I mean dramatical l y , drastica l l y .

17 And these things , are these kinds of things being t a ken

18 into account where you may change the river where it ' s going

19 to gouge out that area that you s a y i s so deep , you know a re

2 0 w e going t o end up with a s ituation o f that nature?

21 MS . LOGAN : That ' s a really good quest ion . So

2 2 I kind o f glossed over i t , but part o f our evaluation was

23 current stability of the areas and then whether our actions

24 coul d i nadvertent l y create some kind of condit ions that would

2 5 caus e a n area that wasn ' t eroding t o erode .

1 We know , we know as a matter of course -- you can see

2 sand waves in the bottom of the rive r , so we know that

3 there's a lot of motion of the sediments in the river . And

4 part of what we see though is that some of these more

3 1

5 contaminated areas have been there , maybe not the surface of

6 them, but the deeper parts have been there p robabl y for 8 0 ,

7 9 0 maybe 1 0 0 years and so we're trying to avoid

8 destab i l i z ing .

9 THE SPEAKER : Wel l , that ' s what I was getting

1 0 at . Are you going to, l i ke i t looks l i ke you're

1 1 straightening out great big paths o f the river, straightening

1 2

13

1 4

1 5

i t out .

now --

I mean this is what happened to the M i s s i s s ippi and

MS . LOGAN: We are not - -

THE SPEAKER: They changed the Mis s i s s ippi and

16 now people get washed out .

17 MS. LOGAN: We are not doing mas s ive

1 8 re-engineering of the river chann e l , we ' re working with the

1 9 natural river channel .

2 0 THE SPEAKER : I was jus t , I was wondering

2 1 because I seen that big long straight one and you know are

2 2 you , i f that was going t o b e taken i nto account . Thank you .

2 3 M R . TAYLOR : Can I add one t h ing for that .

2 4 With some of the caps that have been placed i n the river we

2 5 want t o make sure that those stay i n p lace and prevent the

1 depos i t s f rom eroding . One of the things that the agenci e s

3 2

2 have been doing i s going back and relooking at those caps one

3 year , two years , three years .

4 We got t his l ittle submersible bas ical l y that you , l i ke

5 a video game , but we take a video of the cap so we can look

6 for , you know l i ke i f a tree came down and got snagged up in

7 that webbing or something l i ke that . Look at i t and then Dow

8 does a good j ob of going out and conducting repairs . But the

9 caps are going to require you know long-term maintenance and

1 0 monitor ing .

11 THE S PEAKER : That ' s where I was going with

1 2 that you know i s how often are they going t o b e monitoring ,

1 3 how often are they monitored? She says the last one was

1 4 taken his torically s i x and seven

15 MS . LOGAN : Those aren't the last ones . The

1 6 areas that we ' re wor king on are moni tored several times a

1 7 year . And we also mon itor based on i f there ' s a certain f low

18 event , that could be a h i gh flow, we monitor after those

1 9

2 0

event s .

MR . TAYLOR : There ' s engineering or t here ' s

2 1 surveying of the bottom too t o make sure the cap elevation

2 2 i sn ' t changed . L i ke i f you, a l l o f the sudden you lost - -

2 3 THE S PEAKER : You can p robabl y do that from

2 4 satellite imaging, right ?

2 5 M R . TAYLOR : I don ' t , actual l y I think we ' ve

1 gone back to mos t l y low-tech on that which i s just you know

2 with standard surveying equipment , but eventu a l l y I think

3 probab l y yeah .

4

5

6

follow-up ?

MS . RUSSELL : Oka y . John, you have a

MR . JOHN TAYLOR : Yeah , a couple now . The

3 3

7 stretch from where I am it ' s a bottom control which you j ust

8 showed on those grids . And the Flood o f 1 8 6 which was

9 disastrous to me , I u sed to be able to t a ke and run a boat

1 0 the f u l l length o f that river from my yard a l l the way down

11 to State Street .

1 2 I n 1 8 6 there w a s t rees growing i n the r iver after that

13 flood, that ' s how much soil was depos ited over a mile in that

1 4 river right there . So the bottom i s stil l there and a l l this

1 5 other stuff i s contaminants washed in . Are you going to do

16 something d i f f e rent with that now?

17 The way you t a l k about - - because you can ' t cap which is

18 a l ready maybe 1 0 , 12 feet deep of contamina tion . That's

19 what ' s there right now . Granted I haven ' t been in the river

2 0 s ince this started, i n 14 years I have not f i shed there

2 1 since .

2 2 And the next quest ion i s you ' re t a l king about the banks ,

2 3 erosion, floods t o get more t o t he point are they going to

2 4 address s omebody l i ke me who has been f looded out , property

2 5 everything i n any way, shape o r form, m y home?

1

3 4

MS . LOGAN : So let me say again we have a p lan

2 for floodplain propert ies and when we come to your area your

3 property w i l l be eva luated about whether it needs a clean-up

4 for the soil in your yard . That i s a separate plan .

5 In t e rms of the multiple quest ions you had about the

6 sediment depos i t s , I can 1 t speak to what happened after 1 9 8 6

7 I was not around . I don ' t know, but certainly from a

8 phys i cal point-of-view river systems want to come to some

9 kind o f equil ibrium . So i f you have an event that brings a

10 lot o f so l ids i n , the river over t ime w i l l wash them away or

11 come to e qu i l ib rium.

12 And I don ' t know what has happened with that . We do

13 have multiple years of looking at the bottom o f the river and

14 whether i t has stayed stable i n certain areas or whether it

15 has changed . You know this gentl eman commented about

16 dredging i t , we are not dredging, doing navigational dredging

1 7 o r any kind o f post flood --

18 THE SPEAKER : We l l , dredging would deepen the

19 whol e r iver and it would control the f looding better too .

2 0 MS . LOGAN : The EPA ' s not here t o control

2 1 f looding EPA i s here t o respond to contaminants and what we

2 2 need t o do about contaminants . People who l ive along the

2 3 r iver have taken the decis ion to have the potential to have

2 4 the i r property flooded .

2 5 M R . JOHN TAYLOR : Not t o this point , no way .

3 5

1 MS . LOGAN : The E PA i s not here to control the

2 floodin g , that i s not part of our miss ion we ' ve been given by

3 Congres s .

4 MR . JOHN TAYLOR : Well , there ' s another point .

5 The guy that put that into action I unders t and i s enj oying

6 his nice dose that he's blessed us with , that ' s Mr . Camp .

7

8

9

Oka y .

MS . RUSSELL : Did you have a question?

THE SPEAKER : Why has it been so difficult for

10 res idents to f ind out i f they're in the 8 0 year floodpla i n or

11 the ei ght ?

1 2

13 eight year?

14

15

16

MS . RUSSELL : The 8 0 year floodp l a in or the

THE SPEAKER : Eight .

MS . RUSSELL : Eight .

MS . LOGAN : I t should not be difficult .

1 7 THE SPEAKER : I t ' s been very difficult . I

1 8 e-mai l ed you three t imes without any respon s e , I ' ve worked

1 9 with Dow and the Freel and office nume rous occasions . I

2 0 final l y was told that I was i n the e ight year f loodplain, but

21 it ' s taken two years or more of action trying to get that

22 informat ion . And to be hone st I ' m not in this I'm in seven,

2 3 six .

2 4

2 5

MS . LOGAN : Oka y .

MS . RUSSELL : Oka y . And we can certainly look

1 at what that i s a fter, after the mee ting i f you have a very

2 specific quest ion about --

36

3 THE SPEAKER : We ' ve a l ready t a l ked about that .

4 I l ive on We l l s Drive and there ' s an inlet that comes from

5 the r iver that floods every yea r , all last winter it was

6 flooded with water . Two years ago l i ke your ' s i t was within

7 15 foot o f my hous e , three years ago i t was within 1 5 foot of

8 my house .

9 And I had such a hard t ime finding out i f I ' m in the

1 0 e ight year floodplain according t o Dow or E PA . I don ' t know

1 1 why that ' s such a problem.

12 MS . RUSSELL : I ' l l have to look and see what ,

1 3 specific to your property because you know w e again apologize

14 if you feel it ' s not been responsive .

1 5

1 6

THE SPEAKER : I t has not been responsive .

MS . RUSSELL : We'll fol low up with you to make

1 7 sure your concerns a re addressed, o kay? Oka y .

1 8 M R . JOHN TAYLOR : Another one , not to insult

1 9 somebody, but i t wasn ' t a l l that many years ago there was a

2 0 b i g i s sue at SVSU where many people were i n a ttendance where

2 1 the Army Corps o f Engineers came i n and did a lot o f dredging

2 2 o n the Saginaw River so they could dock boat s . Now, the Army

2 3 Corps o f Enginee r s can make short work o f the whole

2 4 T ittabawassee River real qui c kl y .

2 5 Why a ren ' t you doing something t o address and a s k them

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1 to step i n ? A l l this could be taken out with a bunch of sand

2 suckers and it wouldn't be any problem left .

3 MS . LOGAN : I n order for the Army Corps of

4 Engineers to do navigat ional dredging on a r iver they have to

5 have Congress specifi cal l y approve it .

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MR. JOHN TAYLOR: Go for it .

MS . LOGAN: And Congres s has t o approve the

8 cut back and t he Corps of Engineers has not put that peti t ion

9 in . From t he EPA's perspect ive our j ob i s to try to work

1 0 with our s i ster agencies and Dow t o address residual chemical

1 1 contamination i s sues . And not to deal with what the public

12 might want i n terms of the depth of the Tittabawassee River

1 3 o r navigati onal needs up here . Our response act ions are

1 4 re lated to contaminants and releases o f contaminants .

1 5 MR . JOHN TAYLOR : From what I ' m hear i ng here

16 everybody I tal ked, hear talking has got the same concerns

1 7 that I do . We do not want t o get flooded again . All this

1 8 remediat ion, ban k movin g , topsoil i s not going to stop the

1 9 problem that happened to me or anybody else in here .

2 0 So I think you probab l y might want t o expand your ,

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your i f , you got the right to petit ion them .

MS . LOGAN: We do not have the authority under

2 3 the law t o petit ion t o Congress to manage dredging, E PA does

2 4 not have the authority .

2 5 M R . JOHN TAYLOR: The director o f EPA does not

1 have that authority?

2 MS . LOGAN : No .

3 MR . JOHN TAYLOR : I don ' t bel ieve that, I ' m

4 sorry I don ' t believe it .

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5 MS . RUSSELL : Thank you . Be fore we move into

6 the pub l i c comment portion for Segments 4 & 5 a s Mary stated

7 you know there ' s certainly, i n the commun i t y t here's other

8 interes t s you know as you mentioned tonight w i t h flooding and

9 then navigational dredging . And again j ust to underscore

1 0 what Mary s a id our authorit y's under E PA and work that we're

1 1 here proposing tonight is to under the Super Fund program

1 2 addre s s contamination that could b e harmful t o human health

1 3 and the envi ronment .

1 4 That i s our charge under our author i t y and there ' s

1 5 certainly other agencies that have other authority t o look a t

1 6 these other i s sues that certainly are concerns o f the

1 7 communi t y , but the way that w e approach these problems that

1 8 w e have specifically with E PA i t has t o b e within our

1 9 authority and that ' s the way t hat our agencies were real l y

2 0 de signed .

2 1 So I j us t want to undercut or unders core what Mary was

22 s aying about you know what work we ' re here to do and what

2 3 we ' re t rying to do t o address this very speci f i c top i c . I t

2 4 i s a cha l lenge , you know i f t hese things were easy t o fix i t

2 5 would have been fixed probably a long t ime ago . But w e have

1 a lot of chal lenges when it come s to contaminat ion ,

2 historical contamination not only in reference to the

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3 Tittabawassee Rive r , but across t he state and certainly a lot

4 of communities are dealing with these i s s ue s .

5 And I do appreciate all the que st ions you all have

6 brought here tonight and encourage your continued

7 participat ion . I did want - - did you have a fol l ow-up?

8 THE SPEAKER : I j us t wanted to respond to

9 Mar y . When you said that l iving on t he r iver or near the

1 0 river was a r i s k that the property owners took, t rue . When

1 1 all of u s bought our property I imagine we did not know it

1 2 was dioxin . And probably none of u s would have boughten

1 3 proper t i e s on the river had we known i t was dioxin . So I

1 4 don ' t agree with that argument . We took the r i s k w e did not

1 5 take a r i s k knowingl y .

1 6 MS . LOGAN : And I did not mean to imp l y that

1 7 you made a deci s ion about contaminat ion , but property owners

1 8 that are adj acent t o water bodies whether they ' re

1 9 contaminated o r not are making a decision about what they are

2 0 w i l l ing to, what they're wil l i ng t o do re lated t o t hose water

2 1 bodies .

2 2 THE SPEAKER : That ' s true, but we did not know

2 3 about the contamination .

2 4 MS . LOGAN : And let me under s core that point .

2 5 The purpose that we ' re out here for i s to clean up the legacy

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1 contaminat ion that ' s posing an unacceptabl e ri s k . So that i s

2 what we ' re t a l king about tonight i s a proposal to clean up

3 some of that contamination .

4 MR . JOHN TAYLOR: And wha t , I got a quest ion

5 again now . You can ' t do anything about the Army Corps , i f I

6 contacted my senator I gues s I got more power than the person

7 sitt ing in Washington ; r ight ?

8 MS . LOGAN : You have the right a s a citi zen to

9 contact any of your e lected offi c i a l s to - -

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yes .

happen .

MR . JOHN TAYLOR: I ' ve t a l ked to them a l l many

MS . LOGAN : To a s k them to act on your behal f ,

MR . JOHN TAYLOR: Okay, that ' s going to

Probabl y tonight .

MS . RUSSELL : So thank you again . What I ' m

1 7 going t o do is I ' m not sure i f a n y o f you a r e interested i n

1 8 submit t i ng verbal comment s . I know I have the cards up at

19 the front and t ypic a l l y our process i s if you have a card

2 0 f i l l out a card i f you want t o make a comment for the court

2 1 reporter to t a ke tonight . So you can , you can do that .

2 2 I f you after pub l i c comment port ion, I ' l l t e l l you when

2 3 that ' s happening, i f you want t o have that i t would be easier

2 4 for a few of you i f you had a card or otherwise I can j ust

2 5 give you the mike . And we ' l l take a few minutes s o we can do

1 that once I get it a l l set up and ready to go .

2 I will a l so say i f you ' re not interested i n providing

3 verbal comments ton ight you can submit those written

4 postma r ked by November 6th . I n the facts sheet there is a ,

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5 you can submit the pub l i c comment form j us t go ahead and send

6 it in . Put a stamp on it and send in your comment s . You can

7 also send me an e-mail russel l . diane@ epa . gov and I w i l l ma ke

8 sure that gets into the formal comments .

9 We a l so on our website , again our website i s in our

1 0 facts sheet and on our agenda tonight w e do have a l i n k t o a

1 1 publ i c comment forum as we l l , so a number of ways you can

1 2 submit comment s . A s long as you do s ubmit written comment a s

1 3 long a s i t ' s postma r ked b y November 6 w e w i l l continue to

1 4 take those . But all other forms will need t o b e s ubmitted by

15 November 6th and with that I ' m j ust going to t a ke a minute or

1 6 two to get ready for the pub l i c comment port ion .

1 7 And i f you ' re interested in making a comment I encourage

1 8 you t o grab a card or holler for me and if not I ' ll take

1 9 pub l i c comments when we return i n j ust a few moment s . Thank

2 0 you .

( Whereupon a recess was t a ken . )

MS . RUSSELL : We ' re going to get started . I

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2 3 have a comment card . I f anyone e l s e is interested in

2 4 submitting a comment j ust raise your hand and I'll ma ke sure

2 5 we get i t recorded . S o for this formal , for this formal part

1 of the meeting I j ust wanted to say j ust a few things and

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2 that i s this p l ease remember that this i s your opportunity to

3 provide comment which i s recorded as part of the official

4 record for this proj ect .

5 EPA wi l l not be responding to comments or questions

6 expressed during this portion of the meet ing; howeve r , EPA

7 w i l l fol l ow-up with responses to comments said here tonight

8 and also submitted in writing through the comment period .

9 And a re sponse of this summary w i l l be made avai lable to the

1 0 publ i c .

1 1 I f you turned in a card I ' ll cal l your name and hand you

1 2 the microphone and state your name be fore you give your

1 3 comment . And p l ease speak clearly s o that the court reporter

1 4 can record those comment s . Okay , s o with that I ' m going to

1 5 start with the first comment and our first commenter i s John

1 6 Taylor .

1 7 MR . JOHN TAYLOR : Okay , thanks . All right.

1 8 Mary , t h i s is one I sent t o you quite awh i l e ago, but I know

1 9 that none o f this wi l l get shared with anybody here so I

2 0 thought i t would be a good idea for me to come and read this

2 1 out for everybody's bene fit because there ' s things that

2 2 peop l e don't know that I do know .

2 3 So this i s what I wrote t o you . I believe I recentl y

2 4 sent a repl y to you regarding soil samp l e s from the EPA, Dow

2 5 and the MDEQ which I am s t i l l awaiting the test results from

1 Dow the 2 0 1 4 burrowing they took on my propert y . There are

2 others who have expres sed the same concern .

3 Now I received this pamphlet via US Mail yesterday

4 3

4 regarding your remediat ion act ion pertaining to SMA 4 & 5 and

5 admittedly I have not read the entire pamphlet as the first

6 few pa ragraphs were enough to cause me great concern, take

7 medication to help cont rol the s t re s s I immediately felt

8 after reading this .

9 My i nput may be extens ive as I have informat ion you

1 0 may b e completely unaware of . I n the early days o f this

1 1 t rave s t y our atto rneys and other a f fe cted res ident s a s well

1 2 a s mys e l f were given complete unlimited access to a l l f i l e s

1 3 MDEQ h a d a t t h a t t ime regarding t h e i r dealings with Dow

1 4 Chemical Company over many decades .

1 5 There was much damning evidence i n those files in

1 6 rega rds to Dow , but the one t hing that became instantly

1 7 evident to me was t he number o f t ime s that Dow was caught

1 8 dumping cons iderably more toxins into the river than the ir

1 9 l icense a l lowed . They were t a ken to court count less t imes ,

2 0 found guilty countless t imes with a fine that was a lways

2 1 $ 2 5 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 .

2 2 I n any opinion I tended t o view t h i s from Dow ' s

23 perspect ive I can only conclude t hat this i s nothing more

2 4 t han good business on Dow , part o f Dow Chemi c a l . $ 2 5 , 0 0 0 . 0 0

2 5 t o Dow ' s probabl y l i ke a cup o f cof fee t o u s .

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1 Dow s t i l l holds a l icense granted by our DEQ to dump

2 toxins into this river . The MDEQ has some notion t hat Dow

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has suddenl y became s a i nt ed and w i l l never do another thing

to pol l ute this r iver . Nothing bad intended, Al , we ' re

friends on the other s ide of the fence , but . . . I am not so

naive , I believe they ' re still conducting those same actions

to this day onl y with less hindrance from our state .

We s t i l l have no aquatic vegetat ion a s we once did when

this first became an i s sue . There were about two years where

there was so much vegetat ion in the r iver that I could not

launch a boat from my ramp i f I so des i red . S ince this a l l

became pub l i c knowledge I have never seen, never f i shed in

the river again nor have I allowed anyone e l s e to .

In my e a r l i e r rep l y to the letter you s ent I made

mention of my property being nothing more than an overgrown

brush patch because a Dow representat ive told me t o , not

to in no uncertain terms Dow did not want me u s ing any of

my property where the flood waters have been . I have

complied for the mos t part which has rendered my property

unusable due to Dow ' s dumping and i n s i s tence that I no longer

use i t .

Now I might add to that statement now that Dow said any

abandoned property is going to be declared abandoned and they

won ' t do anything to i t , so now it ' s mowed a l l the way down

to the r iver again . And boy I ' m glad I got a big l awnmower

1 because what a p i l e of crap I hauled out of there thanks t o

2 Dow, so I have no love loss for them .

3 All right . The name of the Dow representative once

4 again i s Terry Le Fevere who I j us t dis covered has

5 mysteriou s l y been removed from my contact l i st . All of my

6 property below the base of the h i l l adj acent to River Road

7 has been inundated with f lood water .

4 5

8 Now for my input in your planned remedia t ion . From what

9 I ' ve read and viewed in this pamphlet you are p lanning on

1 0 nothing more than placing a b i g BandAid o n the bottom o f the

1 1 river and addressing the banks , contaminated property i n the

12 same manner . When remediat ion first began there was dredging

1 3 o f the river commencing within the Dow confine s , removal o f

1 4 all t opso i l , new clean s o i l hauled i n to replace what was

1 5 removed , seeded, new vegetation seeded and p l anted including

1 6 trees .

1 7 I must a s k why i sn ' t t h i s same process being conducted

1 8 the ent ire length o f the river . The only way you could ever

1 9 stab i l i ze the sediment in the bottom o f this river would be

2 0 t o pave the entire length o f i t Midland t o the mouth o f the

2 1 Saginaw Bay .

2 2 And you approach , and your approach to containing a l l

2 3 the res ident s ' riverbanks i s ludicrous not t o mention your

2 4 approach t o a l l the property that was once useable and no

2 5 longer is . I t ' s a n insult t o my inte l l i gence .

1 I had many soil tests above 9 0 parts put in the state

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2 action l evel . The river should be completely dredged and not

3 rely on bottom s and to f i l l some boxes you place in the

4 bottom . All that sand i s highly toxic since Dow is not ,

5 dioxin i s not free floating , but adheres o r attaches itself

6 to any type of organic or geological mat e r i a l which the sand

7 in quest ion i s .

8 A few months ago before our, turning the page , Supreme

9 Court t hrew the case back to appellate court or attorneys

1 0 through t he Freedom o f Informat ion Act acquired a map from

1 1 the E PA that was supposed t o reveal a l l the d i f fe rent

1 2 locations along the river and i n the floodplain o f t he many

1 3 d i fferent levels of contamination . Upon examining this map

1 4 more closely I di scovered that a location across the river

1 5 from me a t t he most down river locat ion of Imerman Park has

1 6 been f a l s i fied .

1 7 The location contains 3 0 , 0 0 0 parts p e r t r i l lion . But

1 8 what the E PA p resented was a n a rea adj acent t o this high

1 9 level o f toxins that was almost indist ingu i s hable from the

2 0 rest o f t he shoreline without a magni fying g l a s s . The

2 1 locat ion pres ented was never tested impossible t o reach

2 2 because of the angle of the bank and vegetat ion .

2 3 The 3 0 k parts per t r i ll ion was discovered qui te awhile

24 ago now and has never had any sort o f warning or barricade

2 5 placed t o protect t o keep people from using it . The

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1 contamination i s s t i l l there and people are s t i l l s i tting in

2 the soi l while f i s hing, having their pets play in i t in the

3 water and wade water adj acent to i t .

4 Your plans for addres s ing my property are completely

5 unacceptable . First o f a l l a l l in peril should have been

6 relocated . Some of us had our homes inundated by f l ood

7 water . My persona l home should be erased to the ground and

8 replaced with a new one . As for my property r iverbank a l l

9 bank soil must be removed and l eveled and a l l level e d

1 0 surfaces l and removed t o a l evel o f depth o f no l e s s than one

1 1 foot .

12 After t h i s a steel seawal l should be installed to a

1 3 height i n exce s s o f the 1 0 0 year fl oodplain . Then a l l new

1 4 clean s o i l , tops o i l should be placed i n a manner that would

15 make it a level above the 1 0 3 year floodp l a i n . All resident s

1 6 should be given t h i s option . I woul d expect new l awn

17 seeding, t rees and landscap ing .

1 8 I w i l l settle for nothing less s o my property and home

1 9 a re forever safe from another f lood l i ke that one in ' 8 6 . We

2 0 are a l l s t i l l l iving i n this toxic nightmare within the

2 1 confines o f our home . We a re a l l cont inual l y i l l and then

2 2 the E PA comes a l ong with such a ludicrous proposa l .

23 To me and others I know who are in the s ame nightmare

2 4 this does nothing more than demonstrate j us t how worthless

2 5 our l ives are t o you . The fact that Dow s t i l l holds a

1 l i cense .to dump issued by the state a l s o demonstrates j ust

2 how much control Dow has over the E PA . They are dumping ,

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3 t hey are self- regulating - I may be wrong on that statement -

4 they w i l l dump whatever and whenever they please . This a lone

5 offers a great deal o f a s surance that you i ntend to let us

6 die from s ome disease linked to this contamination .

7 Sincere l y , John Taylor .

8 Anybody e l s e got a question o r comment ? I ' m it .

9 MS . RUS SELL : I s there any others that would

10 l i ke to submit a verbal comment at this t ime ? Just raise

1 1 your hand and I will give you the mi ke , okay .

1 2 With that I j ust wanted t o , we ' re going t o conclude this

1 3 part of the meeting . On beha l f o f E PA Region 5 and our

1 4 partners at the state we ' d l i ke to thank you for t a king the

1 5 t ime t o come out here tonight . Your t ime i s valuable , s o we

1 6 are honored t o share space with you . And please remember i f

1 7 you ' d l i ke t o submit a comment ma ke sure that you do that

1 8 before November 6th and s o have a good evening and drive home

1 9 safel y . Thank you very much .

2 0 ( Meeting concluded a t 7 : 4 2 p . m . )

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1 STATE OF MICHIGAN

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3 COUNTY OF SAGINAW

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1 0 I certify that this transcript, con s i s t ing of

1 1 4 8 page s , i s a complete , true, and correct record o f the

12 proceedings held in this case on October 1 9 t h , 2 0 1 6 .

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(D - 31- / (p

Date Robin Alvis Doan, CSR 5 6 5 0 Notary Pub l i c , Saginaw County My Commi s s ion Expires 2 - 2 0 - 1 9