Wisconsin Department of Safety and Professional Services

Division of Policy Development 1400 E Washington Ave

PO Box 8366

Madison WI 53708-8366

Phone: 608-266-2112 Web: http://dsps.wi.gov

Email: dsps@wisconsin.gov

Scott Walker, Governor

Laura Gutiérrez, Secretary

PROFESSIONAL LAND SURVEYOR SECTION

Room 121A, 1400 East Washington Avenue, Madison

Contact: Erin Karow (608) 266-2112

July 27, 2017

The following agenda describes the issues that the Professional Land Surveyor Section plans to consider

at the meeting. At the time of the meeting, items may be removed from the agenda. Please consult the

meeting minutes for a record of the actions of the Professional Land Surveyor Section.

AGENDA

9:00 A.M.

OPEN SESSION – CALL TO ORDER – ROLL CALL

A. Adoption of Agenda (1-3)

B. Approval of Minutes of April 6, 2017 (4-6)

C. Administrative Updates

1) Department and Staff Updates

2) Board Members – Term Expiration Dates:

a. Bruce Bowden – 07/01/2014

b. Daniel Fedderly – 07/01/2013

c. Ruth G. Johnson – 07/01/2011

d. Christina Martin – 07/01/2019

D. Legislative/Administrative Rule Matters

1) Update on Pending Legislation and Pending and Possible Rulemaking Projects

E. Wisconsin Society of Land Surveyors Comments Regarding AE-7 (7-10)

F. Speaking Engagement(s), Travel, or Public Relation Request(s)

1) Travel Report from the 2017 NCEES Central/Western Zone Joint Interim Meeting in Denver

Colorado on May 18-19, 2017 – Christina Martin

G. Future Agenda Items

H. Deliberation on Items Added After Preparation of Agenda:

1) Introductions, Announcements and Recognition

2) Election of Officers

3) Appointment of Liaison(s)

4) Delegation of Authorities

5) Administrative Matters

6) Education and Examination Matters

7) Credentialing Matters

1

8) Practice Matters

9) Legislative/Administrative Rule Matters

10) Liaison Reports

11) Board Liaison Training and Appointment of Mentors

12) Informational Items

13) Disciplinary Matters

14) Presentations of Petitions for Summary Suspension

15) Petitions for Designation of Hearing Examiner

16) Presentation of Stipulations, Final Decisions and Orders

17) Presentation of Stipulations and Interim Orders

18) Presentation of Proposed Final Decision and Orders

19) Presentation of Interim Orders

20) Petitions for Re-Hearing

21) Petitions for Assessments

22) Petitions to Vacate Orders

23) Requests for Disciplinary Proceeding Presentations

24) Motions

25) Petitions

26) Appearances from Requests Received or Renewed

27) Speaking Engagement(s), Travel, or Public Relation Request(s)

I. Public Comments

CONVENE TO CLOSED SESSION to deliberate on cases following hearing (s. 19.85(1)(a),

Stats.); to consider licensure or certification of individuals (s. 19.85(1)(b), Stats.); to consider

closing disciplinary investigations with administrative warnings (ss. 19.85 (1)(b), and 440.205,

Stats.); to consider individual histories or disciplinary data (s. 19.85 (1)(f), Stats.); and to confer

with legal counsel (s. 19.85(1)(g), Stats.).

J. Credentialing Matters

1) Application Reviews (11-12)

K. Deliberation on Division of Legal Services and Compliance Matters

1) Administrative Warnings

2) Stipulations, Final Decisions and Orders

3) Case Closing(s)

a. 16 LSR 006 (13-16) 4) Monitoring

L. Deliberation of Items Added After Preparation of the Agenda

1) Education and Examination Matters

2) Credentialing Matters

3) Disciplinary Matters

4) Monitoring Matters

5) Professional Assistance Procedure (PAP) Matters

6) Petitions for Summary Suspensions

7) Petitions for Designation of Hearing Examiner

8) Stipulations, Final Decisions and Order

9) Stipulations and Interim Orders

10) Administrative Warnings

11) Review of Administrative Warnings

12) Proposed Final Decision and Orders

13) Matters Relating to Costs/Orders Fixing Costs

14) Case Closings

2

15) Board Liaison Training

16) Proposed Interim Orders

17) Petitions for Assessments and Evaluations

18) Petitions to Vacate Orders

19) Remedial Education Cases

20) Motions

21) Petitions for Re-Hearing

22) Appearances from Requests Received or Renewed

M. Consulting with Legal Counsel

RECONVENE TO OPEN SESSION IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING CLOSED SESSION

N. Vote on Items Considered or Deliberated Upon in Closed Session, if Voting is Appropriate

O. Open Session Items Noticed Above not Completed in the Initial Open Session

ADJOURNMENT

NEXT MEETING DATE: OCTOBER 12, 2017

************************************************************************************

MEETINGS AND HEARINGS ARE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, AND MAY BE CANCELLED

WITHOUT NOTICE.

Times listed for meeting items are approximate and depend on the length of discussion and voting. All meetings

are held at 1400 East Washington Avenue, Madison, Wisconsin, unless otherwise noted. In order to confirm a

meeting or to request a complete copy of the board’s agenda, please call the listed contact person. The board may

also consider materials or items filed after the transmission of this notice. Times listed for the commencement of

disciplinary hearings may be changed by the examiner for the convenience of the parties. Interpreters for the

hearing impaired provided upon request by contacting the Affirmative Action Officer, 608-266-2112.

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Professional Land Surveyor Section

Teleconference/Virtual Meeting Minutes

April 6, 2017

Page 1 of 3

LAND SURVEYOR SECTION

EXAMINING BOARD OF ARCHITECTS, LANDSCAPE ARCHITECTS,

PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS, DESIGNERS AND LAND SURVEYORS

TELECONFERENCE/VIRTUAL MEETING MINUTES

April 6, 2017

PRESENT: Daniel Fedderly, Ruth G. Johnson, Christina Martin

EXCUSED: Bruce Bowden

STAFF: Brittany Lewin, Executive Director; Nifty Lynn Dio, Bureau Assistant; and other Department

Staff

CALL TO ORDER

Daniel Fedderly, Vice Chair, called the meeting to order at 9:00 a.m. A quorum of three (3) members was

confirmed.

ADOPTION OF AGENDA

MOTION: Ruth G. Johnson moved, seconded by Christina Martin, to adopt the agenda as published.

Motion carried unanimously.

APPROVAL OF MINUTES

MOTION: Christina Martin moved, seconded by Ruth G. Johnson, to approve the minutes of

January 5, 2017 as published. Motion carried unanimously.

ADMINISTRATIVE UPDATES

Delegation of Authority to the Monitoring Liaison and Department Monitor

MOTION: Ruth G. Johnson moved, seconded by Christina Martin, to adopt the ‘Roles and

Authorities Delegated to the Monitoring Liaison and Department Monitor’ document as

presented. Motion carried unanimously.

SPEAKING ENGAGEMENTS, TRAVEL, OR PUBLIC RELATION REQUESTS

2017 NCEES Zone Meeting

MOTION: Daniel Fedderly moved, seconded by Ruth G. Johnson, to designate Christina Martin to

attend the 2017 NCEES Central Zone Interim Meeting, and to authorize travel. Motion

carried unanimously.

MOTION: Daniel Fedderly moved, seconded by Ruth G. Johnson, to request Brittany Lewin attend

the 2017 NCEES Central Zone Interim Meeting, and to authorize travel. Motion carried

unanimously.

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Professional Land Surveyor Section

Teleconference/Virtual Meeting Minutes

April 6, 2017

Page 2 of 3

CLOSED SESSION

MOTION: Christina Martin moved seconded by Ruth G. Johnson, to convene to closed session to

deliberate on cases following hearing (s. 19.85(1)(a), Stats.); to consider licensure or

certification of individuals (s. 19.85(1)(b), Stats.); to consider closing disciplinary

investigations with administrative warnings (ss. 19.85 (1)(b), and 440.205, Stats.); to

consider individual histories or disciplinary data (s. 19.85 (1)(f), Stats.); and to confer

with legal counsel (s. 19.85(1)(g), Stats.). Daniel Fedderly, Vice Chair read the language

of the motion. The vote of each member was ascertained by voice vote. Roll Call Vote:

Daniel Fedderly-yes; Ruth G. Johnson-yes; Christina Martin-yes. Motion carried

unanimously.

The Section convened into Closed Session at 9:15 a.m.

RECONVENE TO OPEN SESSION

MOTION: Christina Martin moved, seconded by Ruth G. Johnson, to reconvene in Open Session at

9:42 a.m. Motion carried unanimously.

VOTE ON ITEMS CONSIDERED OR DELIBERATED UPON IN CLOSED SESSION,

IF VOTING IS APPROPRIATE

MOTION: Ruth G. Johnson moved, seconded by Christina Martin, to affirm all Motions made and

Votes taken in Closed Session. Motion carried unanimously.

(Be advised that any recusals or abstentions reflected in the closed session motions stand for the purposes of the

affirmation vote.)

DELIBERATION ON CREDENTIALING MATTERS

Application Reviews

Nicholas Brey

MOTION: Ruth G. Johnson moved, seconded by Christina Martin, to table the application of

Nicholas Brey, and request additional documentation regarding experience. Motion

carried unanimously.

DELIBERATION ON DIVISION OF LEGAL SERVICES AND COMPLIANCE (DLSC) MATTERS

Administrative Warning

16 LSR 003 – J.G.

MOTION: Ruth G. Johnson moved, seconded by Christina Martin, to issue an Administrative

Warning in the matter of DLSC Case No. 16 LSR 003. Motion carried unanimously.

BOARD TRAINING REVIEW

The Section reviewed training information relating to Public Records and Ethics and Lobbying requirements at

this meeting.

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Professional Land Surveyor Section

Teleconference/Virtual Meeting Minutes

April 6, 2017

Page 3 of 3

ADJOURNMENT

MOTION: Ruth G. Johnson moved, seconded by Daniel Fedderly, to adjourn the meeting. Motion

carried unanimously.

The meeting adjourned at 9:45 a.m.

6

State of Wisconsin Department of Safety & Professional Services

AGENDA REQUEST FORM 1) Name and Title of Person Submitting the Request: 2) Date When Request Submitted:

7/21/2017 Erin Karow, Executive Director on behalf of Dan Fedderly Items will be considered late if submitted after 12:00 p.m. on the deadline

date which is 8 business days before the meeting

3) Name of Board, Committee, Council, Sections: Professional Land Surveyor Section

4) Meeting Date: 5) Attachments: 6) How should the item be titled on the agenda page? 7/27/2017 ~ Yes

D No Wisconsin Society of Land Surveyors comments regarding AE-7

7) Place Item in : 8) Is an appearance before the Board being 9) Name of Case Advisor(s), if required:

~ Open Session scheduled?

D Closed Session N/A

D Yes (Fill out Board Aggearance R~uest) IZJ No

10) Describe the issue and action that should be addressed:

The section will be discussing the comments received from WSLS, and consider initiating rule promulgation.

Possible motion language:

MOTION: Board Member Name moved, seconded by Board Member Name, to request DSPS staff draft a Scope Statement revising/creating citation, if known relating to topic. Motion carried unanimously.

Or

MOTION: Board Member Name moved, seconded by Board Member Name, to request DSPS staff draft a Scope Statement revising/creating citation, if known relating to topic and designate Board Member Name to advise DSPS staff. Motion carried unanimously.

11) Authorization Signature of person making this request Date

ifu:n,if ~ z,PtaC~,7

Supervisor (if required) Date

ifu:n,if ~ ;:,P?Pc~7 Executive Director signature (indicates approval to add post agenda deadline item to agenda) Date

Directions for including supporting documents: 1. This form should be attached to any documents submitted to the agenda. 2. Post Agenda Deadline items must be authorized by a Supervisor and the Policy Development Executive Director. 3. If necessary, provide original documents needing Board Chairperson signature to the Bureau Assistant prior to the start of a meeting.

Revised 1212016

7

From: Towne, Jason

Sent: Monday, April 3, 2017 10:01 AM

Subject: FW: A-E7 points to change or discuss

See below. Here is your chance to have input on A-E7. Please reply directly to Joe, he would like comments

before Friday.

From: Joseph Granberg [mailto:joe@ ]

Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2017 7:40 PM

To: 'Brian Halling'; 'Doug Zahler'; 'Ty Dodge'; 'Daniel Kugel'; 'Louie Filkins'; murphland@ ; 'Fran

Bleskacek'; mark.netterlund@ ; 'Edwin Flanum'; 'Steve Geiger'; 'Michael Markee'; 'Martin, Christina

- DOT'; 'Carlson, Thomas'; hetfeldc@ ; 'Douglas R. Crane, PLS'; Towne, Jason; jrusch@ ;

'JOEL A. BRANDT'; 'Jim Swanson'; 'Jerry Ripley'; 'Ron Hoffmann'

Subject: A-E7 points to change or discuss

Hi all

Attached is a bullet point list of my grievances with the “new” and / or revised A-E7. As you may be aware, both

Ed Flanum and myself are now on the WSLS legislative committee. I am also on the Ethics, Standards of practice

and survey map review committee. Ed and I are two of about 14 people on the legislative committee working to

adjust or modify A-E7.

Please open up the word document and ad your own items that you may want to see changed or amended.

Don’t be afraid to remove some of mine on the list if you do not agree with what I have written. The purpose of

completing and compiling the lists is to get a cross section of opinions to take to the WSLS legislative

committee. We would all like the statutes to represent a general consensus of what we, as a professional group,

think should be the rules that we need to follow. Everybody’s list will not look the same. Even if you could

spend just a few minutes to send me your opinions of what needs to be changed would be very helpful.

I know many more surveyors out there that are not on this e-mail simply because I do not have their e-mail

address. Please forward this to others and have them return their thoughts in bullet point form to me so that I

can forward them to the person leading this committee. This is your chance to put down what you see as issues

with the current A-E7. The bullet points will be compiled to see which ones need addressing from the largest

segment of the surveyors that have to deal with A-E7 on a daily basis.

If possible please try to have comments back to me before Friday so that I can forward them on to Peter Lewis.

Thank you.

JOE GRANBERG

Professional Land Surveyor WI & MN

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A-E7 ISSUES TO TALK ABOUT AND MODIFY ( or not )

A-E7.01 Scope - Do we want to apply a standard for property surveys to “every” survey that is

completed? What if we are surveying an easement?

A-E7.01(2) – Waiver – I think we should rethink this one. By requiring the client to sign on the map may

violate privacy concerns with the client. I do like having it on the map. It puts everyone on notice (

including the client ) what was waived for the purposes of the survey. That said, I know it is an issue for

some and I don’t want to put the surveyor or the client in a tough spot.

A-E7.02 Survey report – Why do we have to limit the survey report to a map that has been recorded and

filed within the last 6 years? If a plat or CSM is tied to the same corners that are currently being used,

should it be up the surveyors professional discretion to make the determination of whether the original

markers are still in place and in their original position?

A-E7.05(3)- Curve data shall be shown by any 3 of the following should be changed to “at least any three

of the following”

A-E7.05(4) – Remove the part about abbreviations on the map. It’s confusing to some people because

they think that you can no longer abbreviate anything. It was not intended to be read this way. For

instance: a bearing of N32°14’56”E should not have to be spelled out, North 32 degrees 14 minutes 56

seconds East. From the beginning of time the second oldest profession (yes surveying) has used

degrees. Even in other countries they use degrees and / or decimal degrees. If someone is reading a

map and doesn’t know what degrees ° minutes ‘ and seconds “ are on the map, they don’t know what

they are looking at anyway. Why burn the extra time, ink and paper to satisfy no one?

A-E7.05(5)- Remove the requirement to show observed evidence of possession or use by others in the

parcel or across any perimeter line of the property. This one has unnecessary multiple liability’s for

surveyors. What if we are only surveying on line of the property? What if the use does not leave

indications in the field for surveyors to observe or identify. What if we are not sure if structures, paths

or items belong to our client or a neighbor? A surveyor should show any structures, driveways, fences

or fence corners or possible use by others that may affect ownership, but sometimes use by others is

not obvious enough to be seen, especially occasional use or non obvious use. This portion of A-E7 open

surveyors up to all kinds liability from land owners and attorneys looking to sue because something was

not shown. Our job is to retrace the boundary. We do have a good working knowledge of ownership

and possession and encroachments. Probably as good or better than most attorneys. But we cannot be

held to the statute the way is currently written.

A-E7.05(7) – Identify the person or entity for whom the survey was made. I have had this issue only a

couple times but I know there are other surveyors that do work for some companies that do not want

their name associated with the survey work. There are privacy laws to consider and I think this statute

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may be a violation of the privacy laws. Even if it is not, we should not put the surveyor at risk and

require the surveyor to announce who he is working for. That said, it is on every map I do.

A-E7.08(c) – Remove all of this or rewrite this section. There are too many variables across the state

that need to be considered for this. At times, the way this section is written is perfectly viable. Other

times it is a huge waste of time and in many cases the county surveyor does not want additional tie

sheets coming in to add confusion to the already existing monuments and ties that he or she has to deal

with.

This is not an A-E7 agenda item but it ties in well. We have to stop making rules and doing surveys to

satisfy other surveyors. We need to remember that we work for the public and our work that we

produce benefits the public and the future users of that information. We need to have a discussion

about whether we have a “standard of practice” or a “best practices” recommendation. We need to not

have some segments of our surveying profession trying to make everybody else survey and draft to

“their preferences”. We need to not forget that it is ok to be profitable. Profit is not a dirty word. That

said, there needs to be an expectation that when a surveyor does his or her survey work, that certain

things have been attended to in the process and a “reasonable” amount of investigation and measuring

has been done to adequately ensure that the survey is correct and has accounted for those things which

may affect the survey.

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