1-17-11 transcript-day 22 reference case on polygamy testimony of ex flds member brenda jensen of...

8/7/2019 1-17-11 Transcript-Day 22 Reference Case on Polygamy Testimony of Ex FLDS Member Brenda Jensen of the HOPE

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1Brenda Jensen (for AGBC)In chief by Ms. Greathead

1 January 17, 20112 Vancouver, B.C.34 (DAY 22)5 (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 10:00 A.M.)67 THE CLERK: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of8 British Columbia at Vancouver, this 17th day of9 January, 2011, calling the matter concerning the10 constitutionality of section 293 of the Criminal11 Code, My Lord.12 MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord, the Attorney General of13 British Columbia calls Ms. Brenda Jensen.

14 THE COURT: Thank you.15 MS. GREATHEAD: And Ms. Jensen prefers to affirm.1617 BRENDA JENSEN, a witness18 called by the AGBC,19 affirmed.2021 THE CLERK: Please state your full name and spell your22 last name for the record.23 THE WITNESS: My name is name Brenda Lynn Jensen.24 Jensen is J-e-n-s-e-n.25 MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord, Ms. Jensen does have a hearing26 problem so I will attempt to keep my voice up and

27 if other people who question her could keep their28 voice up as well. And I have told her that if she29 doesn't hear the question she should ask for it to30 be repeated.31 THE COURT: Thank you.3233 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. GREATHEAD:34 Q Now -- and Ms. Jensen, you provided a video35 affidavit for these proceedings?36 A Yes, I did.37 MS. GREATHEAD: And for the record, My Lord, that is at38 Exhibit 31.39 THE COURT: Thank you.40 MS. GREATHEAD:41 Q And you've kindly agreed to come here to Vancouver42 today to talk about your experiences living in a43 polygamous community?44 A Yes.45 Q Now, can you begin, please, with providing the46 court with some of your family background, where47 you were born and who your parents are.


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1 A I was born in Cranbrook, British Columbia. My2 father is Harold Woolley Blackmore. My mother is3 Florence Margaret Williams. My mother is the4 second wife to Harold Blackmore, and her children5 kept the name of Williams.6 Q And who was Harold Blackmore's first wife?7 A Gwen Williams, a sister to Florence.8 Q They were biological sisters, Gwen and Florence?9 A Yes, they were biological sisters.10 Q And how old was your mother when she married your11 father Harold Blackmore?12 A My mother was 32.13 Q And were you raised in a particular religious

14 community?15 A Yes, it was a community of the people that were16 like-minded who wanted to live polygamy.17 Q And -- sorry?18 A I'm sorry. Like-minded in the sense that there19 was the priesthood and then we were followers of20 that priesthood. Of the polygamous cult.21 Q What was your religion called?22 A It was just polygamy. Or now they have the FLDS23 and that was the segregation, that came after the24 split. We're just polygamists.25 Q Polygamists when you were growing up?26 A Yes.27 Q And so it later came to be known as the FLDS?28 A Yes.29 Q And that's the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus30 Christ of Latter-day Saints?31 A Yes, that is to go back to the original teachings32 of Joseph Smith to do that.33 Q Now, you've told us that your father -- that you34 were born in Cranbrook, and where did you live as35 a child growing up?36 A In Lister, British Columbia on a farm, an 80-acre37 farm out just right near the border of the United38 States. And, in fact, there's an old -- at the39 back of our property was a rum runners trail for40 going back and forth to the United States and that

41 is how we came into -- my mother's children came42 into the United States was by crossing the border,43 not through customs but through the rum runners44 trail.45 Q Right. And so you lived for part of your life in46 Lister, British Columbia?47 A Yes.


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1 Q And then you moved to the United States?2 A Yes. The priesthood leaders told my father to3 come down to Colorado City and help build the4 kingdom.5 Q So let's go back to your life in Lister, British6 Columbia. Have you heard of the -- of Bountiful7 as an area in British Columbia?8 A Yes, it's basically our farm. Bountiful was9 renamed. After we had left Winston renamed it10 Bountiful, the community Bountiful.11 Q And so the Lister area and the Bountiful area are12 the same geographical area?13 A Yes. Bountiful is in the township of Lister.

14 Q And what did your father -- what role did your15 father Harold Blackmore play in establishing the16 community at Lister, the polygamous community at17 Lister?18 A He was the originator of it. My father was a19 staunch Mormon, gone on a mission and very devout.20 And as he kept reading and studying the book of21 Mormon and the teachings of the Mormon religion he22 felt like the manifesto banning polygamy was23 political and not of God, and he felt like if you24 were going be a true believer and do the original25 teachings you needed to go back again to the26 fundamental teachings, and go back and live27 polygamy in order to be a good Mormon. Or to --28 it is included in part of your salvation, what --29 another thing you need to do.30 Q Now, you've mentioned that your father had two31 wives. What is your understanding of how it is32 that your parents came to be married?33 A As they studied -- as Gwen and Harold studied and34 studied on -- more and more into the Mormon35 religion the subject of polygamy came up36 repeatedly, and so after they had discussed it37 many times and read and prayed about it Gwen had38 said, if I have to do it the only person I can39 live it with is my sister Florence. So she40 initially gave my dad the permission to go and

41 present this idea to my mother.42 My mother threw the book of Mormon at him and43 told him not only no, but ... and he -- dad44 underlined several passages that he thought were45 very convincing and very significant, and that46 both families had come from a staunch Mormon47 background and he just asked my mother if she


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1 would -- if she would just look at it. My mother2 was 32. She had a career. She was a good3 teacher. She had travelled. She's -- and she was4 a very good -- she had gone on a mission. She had5 done all the right things. So when she did pray6 about it and she did read and there came a time --7 and she met several times -- visited my father and8 Gwen and they came to peaceful terms that they9 could -- my mother felt like she could do this.10 Q And where was your mother living at the time that11 your dad had approached her to enter into this12 plural marriage?13 A In Treasureton, Idaho.

14 Q And how about your father, where was he living?15 A He was living in Lister at the time. They had16 moved to the farm -- Gwen and Harold had moved to17 the farm just a little before they made this18 decision to enter into the practice of polygamy.19 Q And where did they move from?20 A They moved from Rosemary, Alberta.21 Q And why did they move to Lister?22 A It was closer -- close to the border. It was23 isolated at that time. Very isolated. The farm24 was very surrounded by trees. Hard to get to. No25 amenities. We were pretty much invisible, and26 then also the easy access to the border.27 Q So was there a prophet involved at all in the28 decision for your father to marry a second wife?29 A Yes, there was a lot of reading -- in their30 readings they came across other groups and other31 people who were living polygamy and that would be32 the group in Colorado City. And at the time that33 we were growing up it was Leroy Johnson that was34 the prophet, and then his council.35 Q And was Leroy Johnson the prophet at the time your36 father married your mother?37 A No, it was Joseph Musser, and Leroy took over at38 Musser's death. Musser is the one that married my39 mom and dad, a spiritual marriage, and he died40 soon after that and Leroy Johnson took over as the

41 prophet.42 Q And so how many children did your father and43 mother have together?44 A There are five.45 Q And where are you in the birth order?46 A In the middle.47 Q The third child?


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1 A Yes.2 Q And what about your father and mother Gwen, how3 many children did they have at the time your4 mother married your father?5 A Eight children under the age of eight.6 Q And were they all biological children of Gwen?7 A No, my father decided it was a good idea that8 every time Gwen had a child they would adopt a9 child so that that sibling would have a twin of10 sorts, an age person to grow up with.11 Q And did Gwen have any more children after your12 mother and father entered into the celestial13 marriage?

14 A Yes, she had two more sons.15 Q So altogether your father had 15 children?16 A That's right.17 Q Now, how long is it that you lived in Lister?18 A Until I was 14.19 Q And can you explain what that was like, what it20 was like growing up in Lister, British Columbia.21 A It was cold. It was lonely, isolated, hopeless.22 Q When you say it was cold, are you talking about23 the weather?24 A No, I'm talking about people. The environment we25 were raised in was not a nurturing environment26 because to be too close to your children would27 interfere with your willingness to give them over28 to the priesthood when the time came for you to be29 called. And they -- the priesthood insisted that30 we be empty vessels and disposable for their use31 at any time. We were to have no preconceived32 emotions, ideas, dreams, thoughts. We were to be33 empty. And when -- well, in my case when my time34 came to be assigned the priesthood would get a35 revelation from God and assign me to a worthy man36 who would lead me to exultation.37 Q And what do you mean by assigned to a man?38 A It was supposed to be a direct order from God that39 I was to be placed with a certain man, and I had40 no control over who that would be. I had no right

41 to voice an opinion about who it would be. I had42 no right to make a choice of my own or to have a43 desire or to look forward to marrying someone who44 I cared about and who cared back for me. I was to45 be assigned.46 Q And are you referring to assigned in marriage?47 A I'm sorry?


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1 Q Was that assigned in marriage?2 A Yes, and in any of your mode -- if you were ever3 to become a teacher or any kind of career, if ever4 you were going to be allowed to do that they would5 also assign who would be able to do that.6 Q Who is "they"?7 A The priesthood, whoever was in authority at that8 time. Whoever held the power. In short, when we9 were growing up we just called them the priesthood10 men or the prophets.11 Q And for much of your time growing up that was12 Uncle Roy or Leroy Johnson?13 A Yes, it was.

14 Q What about -- and I'm speaking again about growing15 up in Lister, British Columbia, did you have much16 interaction with the local community in Creston?17 A No, it was not only frowned upon, it was18 forbidden, because they did not want --the19 priesthood men did not want any kind of an outside20 influence on the children especially. They did21 not want us to want anything other than outside of22 what they gave us and what they deemed was proper.23 We did work within the communities out there but24 not -- we never were on a social level with them.25 We didn't go to any functions that were community26 functions. We didn't go to any churches. We did27 work.28 Q What were you taught about the outsiders, people29 living in Creston?30 A That they were -- they didn't understand that we31 were -- were called of God. We were his chosen32 people, and so they would do anything to undermine33 the priesthood. That they would murder us in our34 beds. They would rape the women. That any -- we35 were taught to fear them on all levels.36 Q Who was doing the teaching?37 A The brethren, the priesthood men, the leaders of38 our church would tell us these things and we were39 controlled. And again, always the secrecy was40 very important, that we never say anything about

41 who we were, what we were. Even if somebody asked42 we could not say who our father was, who our43 mother was. Everything was to be kept a secret.44 Q And in addition to your family, your father Harold45 and his wife Gwen and Florence, what other46 polygamous families were there that you grew up47 with in Lister?


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1 A Ray Blackmore's family. Eldon Palmer. There was2 Delmon Oler and Stockdales and Bartons came a3 little later. McKinleys. But the primary,4 primary families would have been the Olers, the5 Ray Blackmores, the Palmers and ourselves.6 Q And while you were growing up were there7 monogamous families as well?8 A Not within our community. Some of them that came9 later, like the Bartons or the Stockdales, they10 weren't assigned another wife at the time that I11 was -- the time that I was there. Not in Lister12 anyway.13 Q Now, while you were growing up in Lister were you

14 aware of other communities that held the same15 belief as you, other communities that became known16 as the FLDS?17 A Oh, yes. We were very much in awe of Colorado18 City because that was where our direction came19 from. That is where the priesthood men lived.20 That is where God's representatives on earth21 lived. And they would only come up into Canada to22 teach us and to guide us.23 Q And where is Colorado City?24 A It's on the border of Utah and Arizona, on the25 very bottom of Utah. Just close to the Grand26 Canyon, if that helps.27 Q And there was also another Twin City or polygamous28 community?29 A Yes, they called it the Twin City because it30 straddled the border. There was a side that was31 Colorado City, Arizona and then there was Hildale,32 Utah. But it was -- Short Creek is the name of33 what it was called in the early days. It was34 called Short Creek.35 Q And Short Creek or Short Creek encompassed both36 Hildale and --37 A Hildale and --38 Q Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona?39 A Yes.40 Q And was there -- oh, and was there also people who

41 believed the same as you did living in Salt Lake42 City at the time you were growing up?43 A Yes. A lot of the priesthood men had homes there.44 A lot of the -- of the boys went up there on45 missions, work missions, so that they had to have46 a safe house for them to go to. So a lot of the47 priesthood men had big homes in Colorado City and


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1 also -- I mean in Salt Lake City. And also to2 kind of not have everyone mass together so it was3 so obvious, so it would look like a normal family.4 Q Now, you've mentioned that you looked to Colorado5 City for your direction. Or your community in6 Lister looked to Colorado City for direction. Was7 there any other things that connected Lister,8 British Columbia and Short Creek?9 A Oh, yes, we were -- we paid a tithing definitely10 to the priesthood. Everybody paid a big tithing.11 Also they would come up and collect the boys for12 work missions. My older brothers and sisters --13 that my older brothers went on work missions. My

14 sisters were assigned marriages. They would15 come -- as the children became of age they16 would -- they would come and disburse them where17 they needed to go for the benefit of the18 community.19 Q Disburse them for the benefit of the community.20 What do you mean by that?21 A Disburse them for the benefit of the community22 means that -- wherever they would yield the23 highest value for the priesthood. If -- for24 instance, my brother was very skilled in25 construction. He would be assigned in Colorado26 City and go out and build. And then my sister was27 particularly -- whatever made the community and28 the priesthood the most happy.29 Q What about marriages? Were there marriages30 between the two communities?31 A Yes, they did a lot because the communities are32 small and in -- of the number of people, and33 there's a lot of children but there isn't -- there34 aren't very many marriage partners. So having a35 whole new family such as ours move down to36 Colorado City it was -- there was 15 children,37 they looked at it that way, that could be married38 without marrying your cousin. And it was -- we39 were very important factor to come down there to40 have a new bloodline come in.

41 Q Now, you've mentioned you shared the same42 religious leader or prophet and that it was Leroy43 Johnson at the time that you were growing up. And44 was there any other men in authority along with45 Leroy Johnson at the time you were growing up?46 A Yes, he had a council that was made up of Jeffs,47 Hammond, Holm, Timpson, Musser. And although


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1 Leroy was the absolute prophet they were second in2 command and they could perform marriages, they3 could -- could make declarations of you move here,4 you need to move there, disrupt or benefit the5 saints as they saw fit.6 Q And how did the people in Lister get direction7 from your prophet?8 A They came up at least once a month and we would9 have a conference and then -- and also they would10 have the priesthood meetings and that is when the11 priesthood men were to meet with the men of the12 community and the heads of the household and they13 would instruct them on what God wanted them to do.

14 And then the men were to go home and instruct15 their wives and their children so there was a16 smooth flow from the smallest child straight up17 through the priesthood through the prophet to God.18 Q Now, you used the pronoun "they" came up once a19 month. Who do you mean by "they"?20 A More than one of the priesthood men came up at a21 time. Usually there were four.22 Q Was there a leader in British Columbia in Lister23 at the time?24 A Yes, Ray Blackmore became the leader for our small25 community -- for that little community, yes. He26 was -- he was the decision maker when the27 priesthood men weren't there.28 Q And he reported so to speak to the --29 A He reported directly to --30 Q To the priesthood men?31 A Yes.32 Q And ultimately the prophet?33 A Yes.34 Q Now, you've talked a little bit about what life35 was like growing up in Lister. You used the word36 "cold" to describe the interpersonal37 relationships. Did you experience or witness any38 violence while you were growing up in Lister?39 A Violence was -- was one of the first things you40 encountered as a child because -- because of your

41 need to obey instantly whatever the lord wanted42 you to do or whatever the priesthood wanted you to43 do. They had a rule that any child by the age of44 2 was supposed to be able to obey a command and be45 no burden on the community and on the priesthood.46 So in -- a lot of smothering down, holding the47 hand over the mouth while the baby was crying, a


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1 lot of -- a tremendous amount of that so there2 would be no interruption. The child was never to3 interrupt the household. A lot of physical,4 physical violence and spanking in the form of5 spankings and restraints and isolation. But the6 smothering down was probably the most damaging.7 Q And the community itself, I've heard the8 expression the "United Order." What was that9 about?10 A The United Order was supposed to be when everyone11 was -- everybody was equal. Everybody12 contributed, everybody worked, everybody was on13 the same plane. We all benefited across the

14 board. We all donated in and we all took the same15 benefits out. And that was what United Order was16 supposed to be, the equalizer. But I -- I17 couldn't -- I viewed that like I view the book18 Animal Farm. It is a very good illustration of19 how that works. Because some pigs are worthier20 than others and that's how it was run.21 Q You said some pigs are worthier than others?22 A In Animal Farm, yes. And that's what they say.23 And there's a pecking order and some people are24 blessed far more than others in the polygamous25 society. Some children are special, privileged26 and some households are very -- live in very, very27 wonderful beautiful homes and others live in28 terrible situations.29 Q One witness that has testified here talked about a30 caste system within what was become known as the31 FLDS. Would you agree or disagree with that32 characterization?33 A In the caste system it is very evident. There's34 pecking orders of the -- not only the families35 themselves but you have the pecking order of the36 wives, the children of certain wives. There's37 always -- there's always allowed -- if you're a38 certain person's child it doesn't matter what39 happens to you. It doesn't matter what heartaches40 you experience because you're so-and-so's child or

41 you came from so-and-so's family. There is42 definitely a caste system.43 Q Now, you were growing up in Lister were there a44 lot of children?45 A There were a lot of children. You were lost in46 the crowd. There was so much to do. There was so47 many children to take care of that you became one


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1 of many. You were not -- you didn't have that2 time and that experience of being nurtured, of3 being sought out, of being important. You were4 one of many. It was mass discipline, mass5 authority, mass conformity. It -- there was no6 enhancement or desire to enhance an individual to7 make that person value themselves or of value.8 Q And in speaking of the mass discipline, what9 relationship was there between the church and10 children?11 A The church owned the children. They wanted --12 they wanted nothing but obedience. You were -- as13 a parent you were to prepare to -- in your hearts

14 and in your minds to give over those children.15 And when I was growing up one of the formalities16 were when a girl reached the age of 16 her parents17 would take her, if not both her parents her18 father, would take her to the priesthood council19 and present her and turn her over -- it's called20 turning her over -- into the hands of priesthood21 and that would mean there would be no more22 parental influence. That this girl would be the23 priesthood's to do whatever they wanted with.24 Whatever they saw fit. That has changed. It has25 now become that the parents never own the26 children. That there is no ownership, that these27 are children of God and they belong to the28 priesthood upon birth.29 Q Why was it the age of 16, do you know?30 A They felt like at the time -- in my experience31 they felt like the girl was mature enough to start32 raising a family, that she would have the length33 and time of her birthing span so she could produce34 more children, and all of this is for the glory of35 God. And it was very important that she start as36 soon as possible.37 Q Now, just to follow up on what you've just said38 there about expanding the birthing time, were you39 taught that a woman could say no to having more40 children? Or to having children?

41 A Into having more children?42 Q Or having children period.43 A No, it was your duty. You were to -- it was a44 duty. For some reason that you wouldn't be able45 to conceive you -- that's where the caste system46 came in heavy because you were unworthy for some47 reason. God saw you as an unworthy person. You


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1 had no choice. You were to have children as fast2 as the good lord saw fit.3 Q Now, Ms. Jensen, you've spoken a little bit about4 the priesthood and told us about the priesthood5 council. Could all men obtain priesthood?6 A There are different levels of priesthood that were7 allowed and you started out on -- of course the8 lowest level and that would be when you were a9 male on the mission and under the direction of10 your father and whoever was the leader of that11 community that you happened to be in. And when I12 was growing up a male had to have the priesthood,13 the lowest form of course, before he could get

14 married, because he had to have the priesthood in15 order to start his own household.16 Q And were there priesthood meeting?17 A There was priesthood meetings and this was a very18 important time for the men to get direct19 instructions from the council, from the prophet,20 about what the next step God wanted them to do21 within the community for the raising of their22 children, how to treat their wives, what to do,23 where to live. Whatever the directions were going24 to be.25 Q Did your father attend these meetings?26 A My father went to a lot of the meetings in27 Colorado City and he would come home so28 discouraged and so heartbroken because my father29 was very strong, very devout man, and when he30 would go to the priesthood meetings they would be31 drunk. It was almost a barroom atmosphere.32 They're talking about the young girls coming up33 with no respect, just kind of picking who is going34 to get whom. These children aren't even old35 enough to know about themselves and they're36 already -- the priesthood men were already talking37 about them and what to do -- you know, who is38 going to get whom first. And bidding -- kind of39 having a discussion of well, if you're going to40 get her, I'm going to get her. Kind of like this.

41 Q What do you mean by "get her"?42 A Assign that girl to them. Themselves.43 Q In a celestial marriage?44 A In a celestial marriage, yes, as whatever number45 of wife it would be.46 Q And so you mentioned that's -- that was the47 timeframe you're talking about there was once you


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1 had lived in Short Creek for awhile?2 A Yes, we had been Colorado City for three or four3 years.4 Q Now, you've talked a little bit, but could you5 just expand on the role of obedience within6 your -- the religion that you grew up in.7 A Obedience was probably the most important thing8 that we could do to prove our -- how devout we9 were and how -- in supporting the priesthood. You10 had to be obedient on every level any time, no11 matter what it was, no matter what it cost you12 emotionally or physically you had to be obedient.13 Because no matter what was asked of you or no

14 matter what happened to you, it was the will of15 God.16 Q And what were members taught about what they could17 expect if they were 100 percent obedient?18 A They would get into -- the priesthood would stand19 at the gates of heaven and welcome them with open20 arms into heaven. They would also be given21 special treatment as in extra wives guaranteeing22 their salvation, because we needed the third wife23 in order to get into the kingdom of heaven. They24 were promised their own heaven.25 Q And now, so you've spoken about the role of26 obedience and the importance of a hundred percent27 obedience. When did these lessons begin?28 A They began at birth and they were carried out29 every day from that point on. Obedience was30 everything and it -- you had to have it in order31 to keep that child from having an opinion of their32 own, going and exploring other things that the33 priesthood didn't want you to. You must obey what34 they said. And they set down the rules and the35 parameters of your life and you had to remain36 within those parameters and follow those rules,37 whether it was your education the way you dressed38 where you went, whom you spoke to. It all came39 down to what they needed you to do.40 Q And who -- you've used the word "they" again. Who

41 was teaching you as a child about obedience?42 A Over the pulpit we were taught these things and43 the parents were supposed to carry those out on a44 daily basis, teaching us absolute obedience and to45 get our hearts and our minds in the right place to46 obey what the priesthood wanted us to do.47 And the priesthood would preach to us every


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1 Sunday and every meeting that we would go to and2 then the parents were to implement that on a daily3 basis with their blessing4 Q So you've spoke of the pulpit and of parents5 having a role. What about school?6 A School was again another place to reinforce7 obedience. School was very important training8 ground for instant obedience, and the9 repercussions would be severe in school if you10 missed -- if you -- mistakes and tried to exercise11 any rights of your own or thought that you had12 any.13 Q And how were you taught? What means were used to

14 taught obedience?15 A It was physical violence mostly or extreme16 isolation, or they would sequester you away and --17 with one of the worthy adults until you could get18 your heart and your mind in the right place to19 obey the priesthood. And you would be required to20 read X amount of material to reinforce what21 they've already said, and until you were broken.22 You have to have -- you had to be obedient with no23 hesitation in any form. That means work-wise and24 emotionally.25 Q Now, what happened if you did not obey?26 A You had the choice of being excommunicated from27 the community or you could go -- again they use --28 you would have to go live with somebody who was29 going to teach you the right way. If it was a30 younger child it would be a lot of beatings until31 you were -- until you were obedient. As it -- as32 you came older, especially in the place of girls,33 they were placed with a man who could control them34 and would force them to obey the priesthood, and35 that man was usually somebody well established36 within the priesthood hierarchy and very firm,37 very firm in his discipline of his wives and38 children.39 Q What do you mean placed with the man?40 A You were assigned in our -- in polygamy you do not

41 choose your partner, you are placed with a partner42 as a direct -- a direct revelation from God.43 Q Now, you've mentioned physical violence, physical44 abuse. Were there any other kinds of abuse that45 you witnessed or experienced?46 A There was -- there is terrible -- my experience is47 terrible emotional abuse. The unworthiness, the


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1 never being good enough, the not belonging, not2 having -- not having a parent accessible to you,3 not having somebody to go to when things happen to4 you that you couldn't understand and you couldn't5 explain it. And if you did have the courage to6 bring it up it was disclaimed as God's will or you7 deserved it because you must have not done right.8 So the self loathing came in very early, and9 the hopelessness. You're never going to get out10 of there. It's never going to get better.11 There's nowhere to go. There's nobody to turn to,12 so you might as well give up and let them do13 whatever they want to you.

14 Q Would you like a little break?15 A No. Thank you.16 Q What about school? Can we move on to school in17 Lister. Did you go to school?18 A We had home teaching. My mother was a teacher.19 Gwen was a teacher and my father was a teacher.20 It was my father that won the case about being21 able to home school. It was challenged. And he22 said -- excuse me. He said because they were23 teachers that he felt like being home schooled was24 the right thing to do. My father's premise was it25 would -- it would keep us from being persecuted by26 the outside people, that our being ridiculed and27 made fun of. And that way we were safe within28 like-minded people and we wouldn't have to put up29 with the ridicule of other people or the cruelty30 of other people for the lifestyle that they had31 chosen.32 Q So while you were in Lister you were home33 schooled?34 A M'mm-hmm.35 Q By your mothers?36 A Yes.37 Q And did you ever attend a more formal school?38 A Later -- later on they -- the community itself39 started a school called the Hope Private School40 and then all of the children started to come.

41 See, when -- for awhile the Palmers, because they42 lived in Creston, would go to a public school, and43 this way everybody in the community went to the44 same school and there was no outside influence to45 disrupt the teachings or confuse the children.46 And the teachings would go along the lines of47 whatever was -- the priesthood men wanted taught.


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1 You did learn some three Rs, but as far as any2 outside influence that would counteract what the3 teachings of the priesthood were, it was not4 allowed in.5 Q Now, Ms. Jensen, you've mentioned that -- I think6 you said that you used the rum road to leave7 Canada. And so at some point you leave Lister and8 you move to Short Creek. Can you tell His9 Lordship how that came about?10 A Well, after the priesthood had taken several of11 the older brothers down to Colorado City to start12 their work mission and my older sister was married13 the priesthood men had a revelation that my

14 father's family should move to Colorado City to15 help build up the kingdom of God. Our profession16 was construction and they desperately needed17 someone to come down and help them literally build18 the kingdom of God. And the housing was tar19 shacks in Colorado City or they were adobe.20 We went down in two waves. My father and21 Gwen went down first with a couple of the22 children. Mother's children stayed in Canada,23 because at the time we didn't know how it was24 going to work out. So we stayed on the farm for25 another year until dad could build a house in26 Colorado City that would accommodate all of us.27 And the -- mother's children were never --28 other than my birth certificate there was29 absolutely no record that we existed, and they30 discontinued even with that. We didn't have a31 thing called a baby book or anything like that32 because we weren't to have a record that we33 existed, okay?34 So when we were coming back into the United35 States -- when we came into the United States we36 just crossed the rum runners road in the middle of37 the night and our uncle picked us up on the other38 side in Port Hill, but it was in the United39 States. And then we went to Colorado City from40 there

41 Q How old were you when you moved from Lister to42 Short Creek?43 A I was 14. I turned 14 that summer.44 Q And how did you find life in Short Creek?45 A Very restrictive. In Canada, at least on our farm46 we had a little bit of freedom to the point that47 we were allowed to wear jeans on our farm because


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1 teacher's degree, but had graduated from high2 school. Often they just recycled right back and3 became teachers. Especially the men.4 Q Now, you said when you moved to Short Creek you5 were 14 years old or coming up on 14 years old.6 Were you coming up to marrying age?7 A Yes, I was.8 Q What did you think of that?9 A I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified. You10 feel so vulnerable. It is the most horrifying11 feeling. Absolute fear. One teeny infraction and12 you're going to be given to the worst possible13 person.

14 Q So you've just mentioned you were going to be15 given to the worst possible person. I take it16 then you were aware that you might be assigned to17 marry?18 A I would definitely be assigned. That is -- when19 you're handed over that is what you are saying.20 That is what you are saying, that you are -- have21 your feelings in order and that you are ready to22 accept whatever the priesthood want you to do.23 That's the -- when you're handed over.24 Q And as you were growing up from 14 and getting to25 15 and 16 was there a time when you became26 particularly worried about being assigned into27 marriage?28 A Yes. And because the -- one of the practices29 after church one of -- we were stand in line and30 shake hands with the priesthood men at the end of31 the meeting, and one of their ways of marrying32 people was just as you went through the line33 please stand to the side and stay after. My34 brother went through the line and he was married35 half an hour later. No idea it was coming.36 Neither did she. She was asked to stay and he was37 asked to stay, taken into a room and married. It38 was -- that's how -- that's how it went.39 Q And what about you in particular. Was there ever40 any conversations or notions you were be assigned

41 to someone in particular?42 A Yes, my brother was on a work mission, and they43 take you out of your family home when you go on a44 work mission and separate you from your family.45 So his work mission was in the Hammond home, and46 he overheard Marion Hammond say to -- in fact,47 Marion Hammond said to him that I would be the


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1 that's exactly what it was.2 Q And so did you face the same kind of internal3 conflict that your sister did, your sister that4 was assigned to marry Marion Hammond?5 A We were -- from very birth we were taught to obey6 at all costs. Yes, I agonized over it. It was --7 it was a horrible, horrible thing for a young8 person to have to decide. And you have to face9 going against God. You're challenging God.10 You're challenging everything you know.11 Everything you've been taught. Every premise that12 you exist. You're challenging that. And you're13 directly disobeying the very thing that you have

14 been brought into this world to do.15 It was -- it overwhelms you. And again you're16 so helpless. You're so absolutely helpless17 Q Now, your dad's words, the words that you don't18 have to enter into a marriage, that he would back19 you up, was that usual advice in your community?20 A No, that was -- that was such a surprise to me.21 By then -- I can say looking back now, by then my22 parents were getting a feel that the talk was23 great but the actions were horrible. They didn't24 live what they preached. There were many25 standards. There was tremendous benefits for26 being a priesthood man and there were no benefits27 for being one of the saints.28 You were very vulnerable when you were --29 when you become a member of that kind of a30 community because the priesthood can, on a whim or31 an infraction or as an excuse, can literally come32 and take everything you have. That means your33 wives, your home, your children, and assign them34 to another man. You can go to work one day and35 come home and you are locked out of your own home,36 and vice versa. And it happens with the women37 also if you're expelled from your home. And that38 means without your children. It puts women in a39 horrible position.40 Q Now, you've just told us about your father coming

41 to see that talk was great but practice was42 different than the preachings, so was there a time43 that your family left the Short Creek community?44 A My dad had been -- after many combinations of the45 priesthood meetings that were more like a barroom46 again, never was about -- it wasn't about47 teaching, it was just simply a chance to discuss


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1 the girls and drink, basically what it was. And2 my father was seeing things in a different light3 and this concerned him because he was a devout4 man. He was a very religious man and very sincere5 in his beliefs. And when he got faced with so6 many disappointments. When it came to getting to7 know the brethren and the priesthood better and8 how they ran their lives and how they destroyed9 lives of other people, he did come to such a10 bitter realization that this -- that he had made a11 terrible mistake.12 He was -- he agonized over this to the point13 that he got a bleeding ulcer. And he was so

14 terribly sick that in -- my mother had sent me to15 run get -- we had a local nurse, and the closest16 hospital was about 75 miles away. They -- we had17 to run and get the nurse and tell her we needed18 help and that -- this is how my father recounted19 this trip.20 They came and got him and put him in the back21 of the station wagon which served as their22 ambulance, and you never went anywhere without23 somebody representing the priesthood, even to the24 hospital. It was to defer any -- and the25 priesthood man was there to ward off any unwanted26 questions that might arise. So the nurse had said27 you've got to speed up, you've got to speed up.28 I'm losing this man. I'm losing him. And the29 priesthood man that was sent to represent said30 slow this car down. Slow down. So she says I'm31 losing him. And he says you will slow this car32 down. And the driver slowed down.33 And my father faced that reality that because34 he questioned the priesthood men he was going to35 be allowed to die. They abandoned him. And it36 wouldn't have been murder; he just died. But they37 were willing to murder my father.38 Q And did that, in your understanding, have an39 impact as far as your father staying in the40 community?

41 A I think it -- I think it eliminated any traces of42 hope that there was going to be anything good come43 from this community and this lifestyle, and he44 realized and the mothers realized that they had45 made a terrible mistake.46 Q And they did leave Short Creek?47 A They did leave -- we did leave. We left alone.


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1 We left with nothing. And when we moved my father2 wanted to move very far away but my -- we still3 had brothers and sisters that were married into4 the community out there and that were assigned to5 other people. They lived there in Colorado City.6 And mother and Gwen said, we can't abandon the7 children. We need to be close enough that if they8 choose or if they get kicked out because we're9 kicked out, because they're our children that they10 will have somewhere to go. We've got to be11 accessible. And my parents did change and stay in12 Le Verkin which was just -- it's about 30 miles13 out of Colorado City.

14 Q In Utah?15 A In Utah.16 Q And how old were you when this happened?17 A I was 17.18 Q What year was that?19 A It was 19 -- in the spring of '68 is when I --20 when we actually physically left Colorado City and21 slept on the ground for a summer till we could22 build a small house to shelter us. My brother --23 my brother here in Canada loaned my father some24 money so we could buy raw materials and we just25 went to work doing what we do and building this26 small shelter.27 And after -- we got a smaller shelter built28 and also that same money bought a piece of29 property in Le Verkin. So slowly I went to my30 senior year in high school in Hurricane High. It31 was a terribly difficult transition. And we kept32 building and made a larger house and eventually33 almost all of the brothers and sisters came out of34 Colorado City -- and built by my dad. By the35 family home.36 Q Now, back in the Short Creek community you talked37 about your dad coming down to help with38 construction there. Were there other endeavours39 that your father undertook in Short Creek?40 A He did. He was a teacher. He did try to teach.

41 He did try to open up a business, a gas station.42 He had boughten -- wanted to buy a parcel of land43 right there on the highway and open a gas station44 to support his family and to help bring an income45 into the family because we were desperately poor.46 And you had to clear it with the priesthood --47 anybody who was going to open up a business had to


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1 clear it with the priesthood. They wouldn't allow2 it. You were not -- the only people that could3 have access to a business was a Barlow, the Barlow4 family themselves, and they wouldn't allow my dad5 to have an independent business because it was6 not -- he was not obeying the priesthood to their7 full extent of their wishes.8 Q Was your father the only one that was blocked in9 this way?10 A Anybody that tried to do an independent move other11 than what -- the direct order from the priesthood.12 Dad was the most blocked because he was the13 boldest. He was the most obvious.

14 Q Now, you mentioned that Bountiful was on your --15 was basically your family farm?16 A Yes.17 Q What happened to the family farm?18 A After my father's family entirely had moved down19 to Colorado City the UEP put it in -- the brethren20 put it in the UEP which is the trust fund owned by21 the priesthood men where they control all the22 property, all the assets of the community. That23 includes Colorado City and Bountiful. You're to24 turn over everything you own, everything you have,25 all of your mind and your heart and your assets to26 the priesthood.27 Q Now, Ms. Jensen, you talked about when you were28 growing up about the role of obedience, but were29 there any rights that you were taught?30 A The only right that we had even any clue about was31 the right -- the freedom and your right of32 religion. That was the premise, that we could33 have polygamy -- live polygamy, was we did have34 the right to our religion. We didn't know any35 other right existed.36 Q And are you familiar with the expression "keep37 sweet"?38 A Yes, as part of the obedience, as part of being39 obedient part of the -- you never to bring up40 anything negative. You're never to complain.

41 You're never to point out a harm done to you or42 done to someone else. Keeping sweet means keeping43 the peace and not -- not ruffling the surface.44 Q And what about "put it on the shelf"? Are you45 familiar with that expression?46 A You need -- yes, when you are having a harmful47 thing done to you, again, something you didn't


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1 know they had a chance to be whatever they wanted2 to be and that I would back them to the best of my3 ability. I wanted them to know without a doubt,4 ever a doubt, that they were loved.5 Q And having lived both the FLDS lifestyle and6 outside, can you compare the opportunities7 available to your daughters with the opportunities8 that were available to you within the FLDS.9 A As a child growing up we never had -- we were10 taught that our goals in life were to have as many11 children for the priesthood as we could. As God12 would allow us. End of goals. That was our goal.13 And to please our husband. Therefore by pleasing

14 our husband we would please the priesthood, and by15 pleasing the priesthood we would please God.16 As far as an opportunity, was never allowed in17 our minds. We were never allowed to have a goal.18 We were never allowed to have an education or look19 forward to an education. We were never allowed20 to -- if we wanted to study something we needed to21 study the scriptures. And if we had any22 particular God-given talent it was used within the23 community, but never allowed to blossom outside24 for personal benefit. If -- if you went outside25 of the community with it you were flaunting God's26 gift to you.27 On the other hand, my goal for my children --28 in having less children my goal was to have --29 know them personally, know their desires, know30 their dreams, promote those dreams, promote the31 idea that dreams were terribly important, that32 failure was only a step. There's no such thing as33 a failure actually because it was just a growth34 process. And to grow.35 That you could change your career if you36 wanted one. You could have a career if you wanted37 one. You could travel the world. You would get38 married if you wanted to. You did not have to get39 married if you did not want to. The world was40 theirs. They didn't belong to anybody. They were

41 nobody -- nobody owned them. My husband's and my42 role were to promote them on to excellence in43 whatever area they wanted go through life in.44 Q In beginning your answer there you mentioned about45 not being allowed to have an education in the FLDS46 context, but some people did get education, did47 they not? Some of the people in the group?


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1 A Oh, yes, some were chosen to have -- sent out to2 get an education especially in the teaching,3 because the law required that you have a certified4 teacher. When they -- especially at the Hope5 Private School there were often teachers that had6 just graduated barely from high school, and at the7 academy in Colorado City. These were not8 certified teachers. So often people, different9 people would be chosen to go and get that10 education so that they did have a semblance of11 yes, we are. See, we are applying the law to our12 schools.13 Q How were they chosen?

14 A It was depending on -- in one case I know that it15 was as a punishment to a particular woman who was16 not obeying properly. So her punishment was to be17 sent to school and not allowed to have any more18 children, which was the ultimate disgrace. She19 was sent to school. And then other men whom they20 picked and chose because they -- of their level of21 obedience to the priesthood they could trust them22 to go out into the world and come back safely and23 obey the priesthood.24 MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord, I do have a handful of25 questions left. I'm wondering if we might have26 the morning break right now.27 THE COURT: Yes. And who will be cross-examining?28 Mr. Wickett?29 MR. WICKETT: Yes, My Lord.30 THE COURT: Anyone else? Okay. I have a commitment31 over the lunch hour. Is there -- and I should32 like to get up at 12:25. Is that a problem?33 MR. WICKETT: If my friend is right in her estimate of34 only a few more minutes -- if I heard that35 right -- I don't expect -- I'm going to be very36 brief in cross-examination, My Lord.37 THE CLERK: Order in chambers. Chambers is adjourned38 for morning recess.3940 (WITNESS STOOD DOWN)

41 (MORNING RECESS)4243 THE CLERK: Order in court.4445 Brenda Jensen, a witness46 for the AGBC, recalled.47


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1 MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord.23 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. GREATHEAD: (Continued)4 Q Ms. Jensen, after your father left Short Creek he5 continued to live polygamy, didn't he?6 A Yes, he did. The three of them stayed together.7 Q And in your view did it work for him?8 A By the time my father and mother left Colorado9 City they had become friends and companions and a10 foundation for each other. They would have -- and11 on top of that they were sisters. There were12 sisters involved. They felt strongly obligated to13 each other and they loved each other. So for the

14 remainder of their life they were very supportive15 together, offering us a foundation -- us, their16 children, a source to go to.17 Q And now, just one question back to when you were18 living in Lister. Did you ever experience sexual19 abuse?20 A Yes.21 Q And did you ever report that to the police?22 A No, it was -- it was my fault. It was my duty.23 It was -- God wanted me to have that experience.24 Q And later in life did you ever report it?25 A I have -- I did report it. I needed to report it26 for my own sake because I -- again it was just27 festering and it was important. If I didn't do it28 it was never going to heal.29 Q Now, you've mentioned your three daughters. What30 would you do if one of your daughters told you31 that she wanted to live the life of plural32 marriage in the FLDS community?33 A I would beg her to understand why she was choosing34 that direction. I would ask her to research and35 look into all the harms, and I would try to36 understand -- have her understand that she was37 giving up freedom and putting herself in harm's38 way into slavery, and I still believe in free39 choice. I will always be her mother. I would be40 terribly hurt, terribly unhappy if she made that

41 choice, but I wouldn't abandon her.42 Q And you mentioned there you would want her to43 research all of the harms. Do you think that44 polygamy is harmful?45 A I think polygamy is harmful on every level. It's46 been my experience being a polygamist child that47 is no comfort in polygamy, especially emotionally.


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28Brenda Jensen (for AGBC)In chief by Ms. GreatheadCross-exam by Mr. Wickett

1 There is no comfort in being classed automatically2 because of your gender. There is segregation3 in -- males hold the priesthood therefore they4 rule. Women are placed at whatever level, whether5 their capacities are far above that or not,6 wherever that male or the priesthood want them to7 be. They're thought of as an object. Emotionally8 it is extremely destructive because there's no9 affirmation for you. You yourself. That you10 exist. That you're a valid part of the world and11 you're a valid individual, or you could be

12 something, become something of yourself in your13 own right. And you're never taught -- you're14 never taught to love yourself. You're never15 taught to respect yourself. You're never taught16 to stand up for yourself. You're taught to be a17 victim. You're taught obedience and you're taught18 that no matter what it is you have to suffer19 through it for the glory of God. It's -- it's20 your duty.21 MS. GREATHEAD: Thank you, Ms. Jensen. My friend22 Mr. Wickett will have a few questions for you now.23 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Wickett.2425 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WICKETT:26 Q Ms. Jensen, I just want to review just briefly27 some your history as I picked up on it from your28 evidence this morning. You were 14 years old when29 you moved from Lister to Colorado City?30 A Yes.31 Q And at that time -- and that was 1964?32 A Yes.33 Q Correct? And you left -- your family left the34 FLDS entirely in 1968 when you were roughly 17 or35 18 years old?36 A 17 or 18, m'mm-hmm.37 Q And in your life since that time you've38 subsequently, as I understand it, co-founded an

39 organization called the Hope Organization?40 A Yes, I have become a member of the Hope41 Organization.42 Q Were you a founder of that organization?43 A No, I was not. I joined much later.44 Q Okay. And that organization is -- I'll call it an45 advocacy/assistance group dedicated to issues46 arising from the FLDS in the United States?47 A Yes.


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29Brenda Jensen (for AGBC)Cross-exam by Mr. Wickett

1 Q Is that right?2 A Yes.3 Q Okay. And in that capacity I guess you would4 describe yourself as -- or I'm asking, would you5 describe yourself as an activist against the6 practices you've spoken of this morning?7 A No, I wouldn't describe myself as an activist.8 Q In your capacity as a member of the Hope9 Organization and based on your experiences you've10 been asked to comment a number of times by the11 media on issues related to the FLDS and polygamy?12 A Yes, I have.13 Q That's fair to say. One I came across was an

14 interview, a brief interview given back in 2009.15 I'll perhaps pass it up to you and ask you if this16 is you. Do you recall being interviewed by a17 reporter for christianweek.org in February of18 2009?19 A No.20 Q You may recall -- just a brief point that arises21 on this, Ms. Jensen, you may recall that there22 was -- back in 2008 two leaders of the Bountiful23 community were charged with the crime of polygamy,24 which is the issue that concerns us today?25 A Yes.26 Q You're aware of that?27 A Yes.28 Q Mr. Blackmore and Mr. Oler were charged with29 polygamy?30 A Yes, they practice polygamy.31 Q No, but they were charged with the crime of32 polygamy?33 A Crime of polygamy.34 Q They were charged.35 A Okay. Yes.36 Q Do you know that to be true?37 A Yes.38 Q Okay. And in the context of that announcement39 about the charges did you give this interview to40 the a fellow by the name of Frank Stirk for

41 christianweek.org? The part that concerns you42 directly, Ms. Jensen, and I'll give you a chance43 to read it, is the three paragraphs at the bottom.44 A Okay.45 Q Maybe you can read that for a moment.46 A Okay.47 Q Reading that now does that trigger your


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1 recollection with respect to giving an interview?2 A There's -- in the context of this statement where3 I'm saying if it was legalized?4 Q Well, let me just read it for the record and then5 I'll ask you a question about it. The third from6 the bottom paragraph says:78 Brenda Jensen, who was born in Bountiful and9 now lives in Utah, would welcome legalized

10 polygamy. She believes it would give women11 in polygamous situations the freedom of12 choice they currently lack.1314 Did you make that statement to the reporter for15 christianweek.org?16 A I do not remember stating it right like that in17 that particular way.18 Q Okay.19 A The way that I can recall stating this was if it20 was legalized it would at least give women a legal21 outlet to if they left their husband they wouldn't22 leave with nothing and no children, which is how23 it is now. If I as a polygamist have decide to24 leave I leave with nothing and I cannot take my25 children. That would be the context that I'm26 saying there.27 Q Right. And then in the next paragraph the28 reporter's put it in quotes, and he quoted you,29 and you can tell me if this is accurate or not,30 but he's quoted as saying:3132 You might have people that might want to33 dabble in it, you're not going to stop them,34 says Jensen, a director of the Hope35 Organization, which assists people who fled36 polygamy. "But they will come out with what

37 they put in and that's what is not happening38 now."3940 Is that an accurate?41 A That is a correct statement, yes. And again it42 goes back to if it was legalized, and what I'm43 trying to explain there is just what I said, that44 if people are going to dabble in it and find out45 that it does not work they will come out but they46 will come out with what they've -- the assets and


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47 the -- and not come out naked like they leave us


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1 now.2 Q Right.3 A Right.4 Q Now, the -- you've spoken this morning, in fact, I5 picked up on a comment I think you made at the6 very beginning of your evidence this morning, that7 when you grew up in the Bountiful, what we now8 call the Bountiful community, that your religion9 was polygamy, were your words this morning?10 A Yeah, that's what we were called.11 Q I picked up on that because the religion that you12 were raised is what we've been describing as13 fundamental Mormonism. You know that to be the

14 case; correct?15 A Right. The FLDS. Yes.16 Q But the religion is Mormonism; correct?17 A We didn't ever consider ourselves Mormon. We were18 never taught we were Mormon. We had the19 foundation of the Mormon church that justified our20 lifestyle of polygamy.21 Q Right. The basic religious teachings were the22 original teachings of prophet Joseph Smith?23 A That's what they said. That was how we were24 taught.25 Q That's right. And polygamy is one of the26 practices of the original Mormon religious faith27 and the fundamentalist Mormons today; correct?28 A When I was growing up we were just taught that we29 were practising, yes, Joseph Smith's edict that he30 got from God that we should practice polygamy. So31 when we think -- we did not ever think of32 ourselves as Mormons in any way. We were the33 chosen people that lived the original teachings.34 Q Of Joseph Smith?35 A Yes.36 Q Right. And one of the teachings of Joseph Smith37 was polygamy. You've just said that?38 A Yes.39 Q And others of the practices that you grew up with,40 you referred to in it your evidence today, are

41 practices of the FLDS. And I'm referring to42 assignment and marriage and communal ownership of43 property?44 A M'mm-hmm.45 Q Those are practices of the FLDS; correct? You46 said that?47 A Of the FLDS, yes.


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1 Q That's right. And you're aware that other than2 the FLDS there are other fundamentalist Mormon3 groups in the United States and people. Groups4 and people other than the FLDS?5 A I don't understand what you're asking me.6 Q I apologize. That means I phrased -- I've given7 you a poorly worded question. The FLDS is a group8 to your knowledge of about 10,000 people in the9 United States?10 A Yes.11 Q We've had some numbers bandied about but that12 sounds about right to you?13 A That sounds about right.

14 Q And are you aware that they are many other15 fundamentalist Mormons, that is people that16 practice teachings on the basis of Joseph Smith,17 other than those in the FLDS?18 A Yes, I'm aware of that.19 Q Thank you. I managed to get the question out20 properly.21 Do you have any sense or knowledge of how many22 fundamentalist Mormons there are that are not23 members of the FLDS24 A No, I don't have. I know there are quite a few25 splinter groups but I don't know their exact26 numbers. It's usually a head of one household and27 splinters off from there.28 Q Right. And, in fact, I suppose -- I mean your29 family, when your father and your mothers left the30 FLDS in 1968 they continued to practice31 fundamental Mormonism after that. After leaving;32 correct?33 A Are you asking if they -- they stayed together.34 Q Yes, but your father remained a devout believer in35 the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, did he36 not?37 A No, sir, he didn't. He did not believe in the38 prophet Joseph Smith and he did not believe in39 Mormonism and he did not believe in the40 fundamentalists. My three parents stayed together

41 out of the commitment they made to each other and42 that is the only reason. My father's dream of43 utopia and in this patriarchal fundamental society44 of United Order is good on paper but it doesn't45 work in the human factor.46 Q In your video that you gave that is appended as an47 exhibit to these proceedings you describe your


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1 father as remaining a devout believer?2 A In polygamy itself. The singular. Not as the3 practice of Joseph Smith, not in his teachings.4 They were very -- my dad did believe polygamy was5 a way of life that could be lived and run for the6 betterment of all if everybody was like minded,7 but it doesn't work that way.8 Q Within the FLDS?9 A It doesn't work anywhere.10 Q Well, your experiences with the FLDS; correct?11 A Yes. But I still haven't seen -- okay.12 Q I'm not asking what you've seen or other people13 have told you.

14 A Right.15 Q But, I mean, you've been out of the FLDS since16 1968 and since that time you've spoken to many17 people who have come out of the FLDS; correct?18 A I've spoken to quite a few of lately.19 Q Yes. And your knowledge and understanding of what20 goes on in the FLDS today is based on what those21 other people have told you; correct?22 A I also have relatives that are living in that.23 Q I understand. And they have told you things as24 well?25 A Yes.26 Q Now, returning to your father, you said just a few27 moments ago in answer to questions from my friend28 that your father loved both of his wives; is that29 fair to say?30 A Yes, he did.31 Q And did he love his children as well to your32 knowledge?33 A I think he learned to love us after we had left34 the cult because to -- they frowned on parents35 being emotionally attached to children because36 then they weren't as pliable in allowing their37 children to be manoeuvred.38 Q I understand. But he cared enough about you at39 least to tell you that you did not have to be40 assigned.

41 A Yes, he did care enough about me to tell me I42 didn't have to.43 Q And he said the same thing to your sister;44 correct?45 A Yes.46 Q And when your parents left the FLDS they made the47 decision that they would remain close to the


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1 communities in the event that others of the2 children that remained within the FLDS wished to3 leave and come and live with them?4 A Right.5 Q Right. And so to that extent your parents cared6 about their children. I mean, you would agree7 with that. And you would allow as well for the8 fact that there are other fundamentalist Mormons9 who love each other and love their children? You10 would allow that that's a possibility?11 A I would allow that it's a possibility but I don't12 allow a healthy growth. There isn't -- there13 isn't a way to have a polygamous relationship and

14 have healthy children and have healthy family15 life.16 Q And the reason that you say that you can't have a17 healthy polygamist relationship and a healthy18 family life is because of the control and the lack19 of choice that are endemic to arranged marriages20 within the strict religious teaching of the FLDS?21 That's why you say that, isn't it?22 A From my experience. I'm basing it on my23 experience and why my observations, it -- there24 isn't any way it can be a healthy relationship in25 a polygamous society.26 Q When you say polygamous society you mean within27 the FLDS society? That's what you mean, isn't it?28 A That is where my experience is, yes.29 Q And that's all you can speak about?30 A That's all I can tell.31 Q You can't speak at all about other polygamists who32 live other religions or outside the context of the33 FLDS. You would agree with that?34 A I can tell you what I know.35 MR. WICKETT: Precisely. Thank you, Ms. Jensen, for36 answering my questions. Thank you, My Lord.37 THE COURT: Any redirect?38 MS. GREATHEAD: No, My Lord.39 THE COURT: Ms. Jensen, thank you very much for coming40 to court. You're excused.

41 THE WITNESS: Thank you.4243 (WITNESS EXCUSED)4445 THE COURT: Now, do we have any more videos?46 MS. GREATHEAD: No, My Lord, we are finished all of the47 video evidence and we do not have a witness for


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35Discussion re Scheduling

1 the remainder of the morning or this afternoon.2 THE COURT: Okay. Tomorrow was Mr. Oler?3 MS. GREATHEAD: Yes, My Lord.4 THE COURT: Mr. Wickett?5 MR. WICKETT: I'm thinking just by way of scheduling6 that Mr. Oler will be nothing but the morning as7 well tomorrow. I'm assuming that my friend is8 going to be an hour or so in direct. I expect my9 cross-examination of him will be -- well,10 depending on what he says of course, but something11 in the order of 20 minutes or half an hour.12 THE COURT: Okay. We had a couple of things on13 Wednesday.

14 MR. WICKETT: I perhaps should speak to that as well,15 My Lord. The way that has turned out at least in16 my part my day, my learned friend Mr. Samuels for17 Stop Polygamy in Canada is leading an expert by18 the name of Dr. Kent.19 THE COURT: Right.20 MR. WICKETT: Mr. Samuels tells me that he'll be21 roughly an hour thereabouts in direct. I will be22 cross-examining. I anticipate that with those23 time parameters being accurate that we'll be done24 with Dr. Kent in the morning. It's my expectation25 I will be then leading a witness in the afternoon,26 Alina Darger.27 THE COURT: Right.28 MR. WICKETT: And that, all things going well, ought to29 be completed by 4 o'clock on Wednesday.30 THE COURT: Thank you.31323334353637383940

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36Certification

1 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned until2 January 18th 2011 at 10:00 a.m.34 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:59 A.M.)56 I, SPENCER J. CHAREST, OFFICIAL REPORTER7 IN THE PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA,8 DO HEREBY CERTIFY:910 THAT THE PROCEEDINGS WERE TAKEN DOWN BY11 ME IN SHORTHAND AT THE TIME AND PLACE HEREIN12 SET FORTH AND THEREAFTER TRANSCRIBED, AND THE13 SAME IS A TRUE AND CORRECT AND COMPLETE

14 TRANSCRIPT OF SAID PROCEEDINGS TO THE BEST OF15 MY SKILL AND ABILITY.1617 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I HAVE HEREUNTO18 SUBSCRIBED MY NAME THIS 7TH DAY OF FEBRUARY19 2011.20212223 ______________________24 SPENCER J. CHAREST25 OFFICIAL REPORTER262728293031323334353637383940

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1-17-11 transcript-day 22 reference case on polygamy testimony of ex flds member brenda jensen of...

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