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ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION

Level 19, 55 Market Street, Sydney, NSW, 2000

On Tuesday, 4 August 2015 at 10.00am (Day 1)

Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC

Counsel Assisting: Ms S McNaughton SC Mr Thomas Prince

Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors

.04/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 1 Transcript produced by DTI

1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 2 3 MS McNAUGHTON: It is convenient to present an opening 4 address at this point. 5 6 The evidence to be called at the hearings, commencing 7 today, continues the Commission's inquiries into the CFMEU. 8 9 At the recent hearings involving the CFMEU in 10 Canberra, the Commission heard evidence in relation to the 11 apparent intimidation and coercion of employers into 12 signing enterprise bargaining agreements or enterprise 13 agreements with the CFMEU in the format of the CFMEU's 14 standard form EBA. 15 16 As foreshadowed at the beginning of the recent 17 Canberra hearings, one explanation for the CFMEU applying 18 coercive pressure to employers to sign a CFMEU standard 19 form EBA is that significant commercial benefits flow to 20 the CFMEU under the terms of each EBA. In other words, the 21 form of the enterprise agreement, propounded by the CFMEU, 22 prescribes not only minimum wage conditions and other 23 entitlements for workers, but the agreement also 24 facilitates financial benefits for the Union itself. 25 26 This issue will be explored in detail over the next 27 three weeks in relation to both the ACT and New South 28 Wales. 29 30 The first case study concerns the CFMEU Construction 31 and General Division ACT Branch and, in particular, some 32 terms which recur in the standard form EBA in the ACT. 33 34 In particular, three clauses of the EBA will be 35 examined by the Commission relating to payments: (1) for 36 training; (2), to a charity; and (3), in respect of income 37 protection insurance. 38 39 On the face of these clauses, these payments are for 40 entities which have no connection to the CFMEU either 41 structurally or financially. However, inquiries conducted 42 by the Commission reveal what would appear to be a close 43 structural and/or financial connection between these 44 entities. 45 46 Ultimately, it would appear that the CFMEU ACT Branch 47 benefited financially from the entry into the EBA


1 containing these clauses, to the extent of hundreds of 2 thousands of dollars in the 2013 and 2014 calendar years. 3 That the CFMEU was expected to benefit financially to this 4 large extent was not apparent from the terms of the EBA. 5 6 Indeed, the question arises as to whether the setting 7 up of complex structures in relation to these three areas, 8 training, contribution to a charity and income protection, 9 was done deliberately to hide the CFMEU's involvement in, 10 and/or connection with, the entities or structures set up 11 to provide these services. 12 13 The Commission acknowledges that trade unions may have 14 a legitimate need to raise funds in order to remain viable 15 and provide proper services for their members. However, 16 issues including conflict of interest, lack of 17 accountability, lack of transparency and possible third 18 line forcing, contrary to the Competition and Consumer Act 19 2010 (Commonwealth), appeared to loom large in these 20 arrangements in the ACT. The Commission's Discussion Paper 21 dated 19 May 2015 includes discussion of, and seeks 22 submissions in relation to, a number of these issues. 23 24 First I will just go to the training clause. What 25 appears to be the standard EBA clause in relation to 26 training provides that: 27 28 "It is agreed that a training program will 29 be developed and delivered by the Approved 30 Training Authority". 31 32 The Approved Training Authority is defined and it is 33 defined as: 34 35 Construction Employment Training Welfare 36 Limited [or CETW] as Trustee for Creative 37 Safety Initiatives (CSI) Trust. 38 39 For convenience, this arrangement will be referred to as 40 CETW CSI. 41 42 CETW was registered as a company in July 2010. 43 Between July 2010 and March 2014, the directors of CETW 44 were Dean Hall, Jason Jennings and Jason O'Mara. Those 45 three men were, and are respectively, the Secretary, 46 President and Assistant Secretary of the CFMEU Construction 47 and General Division ACT Branch. Jason Jennings is also


1 the CEO of CSI. 2 3 In March 2014, whilst Dean Hall stayed a director, 4 both Mr Jennings and Mr O'Mara were replaced by 5 Stephen Brennan and Robert Docker. 6 7 A chart of company structures has been prepared for 8 what is to be hoped ease of understanding and, if it is 9 convenient, I will make that available now. 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 12 13 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. It has been placed on the 14 screen. 15 16 On the chart, CETW as trustee for CSI is the middle 17 box in the middle of the chart outlined in red. CETW CSI 18 was and is an organisation running training programs for a 19 fee for the building and construction industry. On its 20 website, it describes itself as an ACT based organisation 21 committed to a continuing focus on improving safety 22 standards in the building and construction industry. It 23 offers a large range of courses including occupational 24 health and safety training, drug and alcohol awareness, 25 asbestos training, and many others. 26 27 As can be seen from the chart, Dean Hall and 28 Jason O'Mara were directors of an earlier incarnation of 29 CETW CSI which was a company called Creative Safety 30 Initiatives Pty Ltd. That company on the chart appears to 31 the left of the chart, just above the middle of the page. 32 It is now called, it can be seen from the chart, 33 119 585 821 Pty Ltd and until 5 April, it was known as 34 Creative Safety Initiatives Pty Ltd. They were directors 35 of that company between 2010 and 2012. 36 37 Another company, the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club 38 Community Fund Limited or CTUCCS was the sole shareholder 39 of CSI Pty Ltd and that has been represented on the chart 40 on the left below the middle of the chart in the 41 yellow/gold box. It is also represented on the right of 42 the chart in more detail, about a third of the way down the 43 page in again the yellow/gold box. 44 45 The directors of CTUCCF, as can be seen from the chart 46 - and that's apparent on the right-hand side of the chart - 47 include Dean Hall, Jason O'Mara and Jason Jennings. CTUCCF


1 is the ultimate holding company of Construction Charitable 2 Works Limited (CCW), to which I will come in a moment. 3 4 Just for reference to the chart, CCW Limited or 5 Construction Charitable Works Limited is in the blue box 6 about two-thirds of the way down the right-hand side of the 7 page. 8 9 Going back to CETW CSI, the one in the middle of the 10 page, that is the training organisation which employers are 11 bound to use for a fee for their training needs under the 12 training clause in the EBA, including, for example, 13 training for a compulsory White Card which is an entry 14 level industry recognised induction course for all new 15 employees. 16 17 The Commission will be inquiring into questions 18 involving conflicts of interest, lack of transparency and 19 possible third line forcing so far as the CETW CSI 20 arrangement is concerned. It will inquire into the need 21 for changing CSI Pty Ltd, that is the company to the left 22 of the chart, as the company providing the training to a 23 more complex arrangement involving a trust. 24 25 The next clause in the EBA that attention will be 26 given to is the donation clause of $1 a week to CCW. 27 28 Another clause in the CFMEU negotiated EBA is one 29 which requires $1 per week per employee to be donated to 30 Construction Charitable Works Limited (CCW), appearing in 31 the blue box two-thirds down the page on the right. 32 33 The terms of the clause containing this requirement 34 has changed over time, but the donation component appears 35 to be consistent. 36 37 Between January 2010 and June 2013, Dean Hall and 38 Jason O'Mara were directors, with others, of this company, 39 and that can be seen on the chart. 40 41 Mr O'Mara ceased his directorship in June 2013 but 42 Mr Hall continued in that role. Jason Jennings is the CEO 43 of CCW as well as CSI. As can be seen from the chart, and 44 as noted above, the ultimate holding company of CCW is 45 CTUCCF, that is the company in the gold box, the members of 46 which are the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club Limited and the 47 Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Limited. They're


1 represented at the top on the right of the chart. 2 Dean Hall, Jason O'Mara and Jason Jennings are on the board 3 of all these three companies. 4 5 Analysis by the Commission's forensic accountants 6 shows that a management fee of over $200,000 was paid by 7 CCW to CETW CSI in each of the 2013 and 2014 calendar 8 years. The Commission will explore what work was done to 9 earn this large fee charged by CETW CSI for payment by this 10 charity. The Commission will also be inquiring into 11 questions involving conflict of interest and transparency 12 so far as the CCW arrangement is concerned. 13 14 Turning now to the Income Protection Insurance clause 15 in the EBA. 16 17 Also included in the EBA is a clause under the heading 18 "Income Protection Insurance". It provides that: 19 20 The Company shall effect an agreed Income 21 Protection Insurance policy for employees 22 covered by the EBA. 23 24 Depending on the particular agreement, the clause goes on 25 to provide either that the terms, conditions and benefits 26 provided by the agreed insurance policy will be provided by 27 BUILT-PLUS, or, that the terms, conditions and benefits 28 provided by the agreed insurance policy must be equal or 29 better than that provided by BUILT-PLUS. 30 31 BUILT-PLUS is the marketing name for a product set up 32 by Jardine Lloyd Thompson Australia Pty Ltd, known as the 33 JLT Trust or JDT arrangement. Companies who have entered 34 into the standard form EBA have become party to a JDT 35 arrangement, a managed investment scheme, administered 36 under a discretionary trust arrangement. 37 38 In the Product Disclosure Statement, it was stated 39 that the scheme was established to help manage the members' 40 risk of personal accident and sickness which occur outside 41 of working hours and for which statutory workers' 42 compensation benefits are not payable. 43 44 What is not apparent from the clause in the EBA, but 45 is apparent from the scheme rules and the Product 46 Disclosure Statement is that the scheme is not insurance 47 because one element of the arrangement involves the


1 trustees's absolute discretion. In other words, there is 2 no guarantee that any money will be paid to every worker 3 covered by the scheme. What is also not apparent from the 4 clause in the EBA is that the promoter of this scheme is 5 CETW CSI. 6 7 The Commission's forensic accountants have determined 8 that CETW CSI was paid over $200,000 in promoters' fees in 9 2013 and 2014. What, if any, promotional work was done to 10 earn this large fee will be explored this week. 11 12 As a result of these three clauses in the EBA, 13 CETW CSI received money for training, in part as a result 14 of being the Approved Training Authority in the EBA, 15 management fees from CCW and promoters' fees from the 16 JDT Trust scheme. 17 18 The diagram or chart refers to the trusts in the 19 bottom left-hand side of the chart in the green boxes. 20 21 CETW CSI in turn distributes its annual surplus to the 22 income default beneficiary. The income default beneficiary 23 of the Trust is effectively the CFMEU ACT. In 2013, the 24 CFMEU ACT received over $390,000 from CETW CSI. In 2014, 25 it received over $790,000 from CETW CSI. It would appear 26 that these amounts went into the general revenue of the 27 Union. Given it is the Union that benefits financially to 28 a large extent from these clauses being included in the 29 standard form EBA, it is clear that issues of conflict of 30 interest, transparency, accountability and possible third 31 line forcing are important issues to explore. 32 33 The next case study which will be dealt with in the 34 course of the next few weeks is that of the Building Trades 35 Group (Drug and Alcohol) Committee. The Commission will 36 also be inquiring into two matters relating to this entity 37 and the CFMEU, Construction and General Division New South 38 Wales Branch. 39 40 The first matter under this heading involves a payment 41 of a substantial amount of money from an employer to the 42 BTG D and A Committee, that is, the Building Trades Group 43 (Drug and Alcohol) Committee, the vast majority of which 44 flowed to what is known as the CFMEU Fighting Fund. 45 46 The Commission will be inquiring into the reason or 47 reasons that money was paid. Again, issues of conflict of


1 interest, transparency and accountability will be explored. 2 3 The second matter involves a clause in a CFMEU NSW 4 standard form EBA between 2004 and 2012. 5 6 In 2004, the clause in question in the standard form 7 EBA provided for $1 a week per employee to be paid by the 8 employer to an administrator nominated by the BTG D and A 9 Committee to assist with the provision of a drug and 10 alcohol rehabilitation and treatment services/safety 11 programs for the building and construction industry. 12 13 By 2005, the amount provided for in the clause had 14 increased to $2 a week. For many years the 15 BTG D and A Committee conducted a number of programs 16 directed towards drug and alcohol safety. It obtained 17 New South Wales health grants between 2004 and 2014 to 18 conduct a number of drug and alcohol programs. It also 19 obtained grants from WorkCover to run drug and alcohol 20 safety programs in New South Wales TAFE. 21 22 The BTG D and A Committee was also closely associated 23 with the running of Foundation House in Rozelle in Sydney. 24 This was set up by the Construction Industry Drug and 25 Alcohol Foundation, known as CIDAF, which was established 26 in 1994. For a lengthy period of time Trevor Sharp acted 27 as the coordinator of both the BTG D and A and CIDAF. 28 29 The Commission will focus on why between 2004 and 2012 30 only roughly half of the money obtained from the donations 31 arising from the clause in the EBA was sent by the 32 BTG D and A to the CIDAF for Foundation House. It will 33 inquire as to why the other half, or thereabouts, was sent 34 from the BTG D and A to the CFMEU NSW General Revenue 35 account, first directly and then later, from 2005, 36 indirectly via an intermediate holding account. 37 38 The Commission will further inquire as to why the 39 employer representatives of CIDAF were of the view that 40 CIDAF was receiving all of the EBA clause money for 41 Foundation House. Again, it is clear that issues of 42 conflict of interest, transparency and accountability are 43 important issues to explore in this context. 44 45 In addition, the circumstances in which the money was 46 obtained by the CFMEU give rise to additional issues, 47 including potential breaches of trust and obtaining money


1 by deception. 2 3 A further case study involves UPlus or Coverforce. 4 The Commission will be looking, in the upcoming weeks, at a 5 clause in the New South Wales standard form EBA relating to 6 top up insurance cover. This clause involved a true 7 insurance scheme, (unlike the discretionary JDT arrangement 8 found in the ACT standard form EBA) called UPlus. It was 9 operated first by Coverforce Pty Ltd and later, from 10 mid-2013, by UPlus Pty Ltd, a company owned by both 11 Coverforce and the CFMEU NSW. 12 13 In New South Wales, employers paid premiums under the 14 UPlus scheme out of which large sums of commission were 15 distributed between Coverforce and the CFMEU NSW. The 16 scheme has evolved over time from 2003 to date, over which 17 period several millions of dollars of commission was 18 received by the CFMEU NSW. Again, issues of conflict of 19 interest, transparency and accountability arise. 20 21 What would appear to be the last case study in this 22 current session would involve the Committee to Defend Trade 23 Union Rights. This will be a short case study to examine a 24 payment of $7 million in 2005 from the CFMEU NSW Branch, 25 Construction and General Division, to a body called the 26 Committee to Defend Trade Union Rights. Among other 27 things, the reason for the CFMEU making this payment of 28 $7 million will be investigated. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you. Should this chart be 31 marked as an exhibit? 32 33 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, please. 34 35 THE COMMISSIONER: What should we call it? CFMEU MFI-1? 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: Perhaps with CSI in the title. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: All right. This is CSI MFI-1. 40 41 CSI MFI-1 CHART OF COMPANY STRUCTURES 42 43 THE COMMISSIONER: Of course, the merit of the chart 44 cannot rise higher than the merit of the underlying 45 documents. 46 47 MS McNAUGHTON: Indeed.


1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: So if they make it out, then it is a 3 very useful chart. Next, what do we do? Yes, Mr Borgeest? 4 5 MR T BORGEEST: Commissioner, my name is Borgeest, and 6 I have been granted authority to appear on behalf of 7 Construction Employment Training and Welfare Limited and 8 also on behalf of Construction Charitable Works Limited. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 11 12 MR BORGEEST: In connection with the latter named entity, 13 there is something I wish to raise about the scope of my 14 friend's opening once appearances have been taken. 15 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to raise it now? 17 18 MR BORGEEST: I'm sorry, does anyone else need to -- 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: You appear for the CFMEU and many 21 officials who -- 22 23 MR AGIUS: Yes, and for the individuals who will be called 24 today, Commissioner. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Agius. Yes, Mr Borgeest? 27 28 MR BORGEEST: Commissioner, the proposition is that 29 Construction Charitable Works Limited is not a relevant 30 entity within the meaning of the Terms of Reference and 31 there is something that would flow from that concerning 32 some of the matters that those assisting you propose to 33 lead inquiries upon. 34 35 THE COMMISSIONER: Perhaps the best thing is to, as it 36 were, take on board your point as you just made it, 37 obviously it has not been fully developed, and perhaps when 38 people generally have a better grip on the evidentiary 39 picture, you might then wish to make any objection you want 40 to any particular -- 41 42 MR BORGEEST: I can foreshadow that I would not be 43 proposing that this proposition is any obstacle to the 44 investigation of the management fee, transactions that my 45 friend raised, but there would be an issue concerning the 46 stream of funds through donations arising out of EBA 47 clauses, but I can raise and develop that point once


1 inquiries reach that stage. 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, very well. Thank you. Yes, 4 Ms McNaughton? 5 6 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. I call Dean Hall. 7 8 <DEAN JAMES HALL, sworn: [10.26am] 9 10 <EXAMINATION BY MS MCNAUGHTON: 11 12 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Could you please tell the Commission 13 your full name? 14 A. Dean James Hall. 15 16 Q. Your current occupation? 17 A. Secretary of the ACT Branch of the CFMEU. 18 19 Q. Is that the whole of the ACT Branch or is it divided 20 into Construction and General Division -- 21 A. There's no mines or forestry products in the ACT. It 22 is the only thing that exists, yes. 23 24 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Just while we are on this general 25 subject, my understanding is that there is a single legal 26 entity which is the Construction, Forestry, Mining and 27 Energy Union, and, for example, the body of which you are 28 the Secretary is really just a division of it or a branch 29 of it? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. There is one in Victoria, one in Queensland, one in 33 New South Wales. Some of them are divided up by trades, 34 depending on whether there is any forestry or energy, or 35 whatever it is. 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. I am right, am I - and this is not intended to be 39 either praise or blame - there is one big Union and it is 40 divided up into branches geographically, is that the 41 position? 42 A. That's my understanding, but I don't profess to be an 43 expert on the structure of the CFMEU. 44 45 Q. Ultimately, the structure will depend on looking at 46 the rules, presumably, of the CFMEU? 47 A. Yes.

.04/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 11 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI

1 2 Q. Are there rules for your particular Branch? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. We can look at them in due course, I suppose, but they 6 control what money goes into what bank accounts and who 7 operates what bank accounts, do they? 8 A. I'm not sure about that. I'd have to check. 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton. 11 12 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 13 14 Q. Just to quickly cover your activities since leaving 15 school, you completed a Bachelor of Education (Secondary) 16 at the University of Canberra? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 MR AGIUS: I may be able to assist here. We have had 20 prepared a revised CV. I can provide copies of that to my 21 friend. 22 23 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 24 25 MR AGIUS: And to the Commission. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. 28 29 MR AGIUS: Perhaps I will provide a second copy which 30 might eventually form part of the record. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Why don't we make that CSI MFI-2, 33 subject to Ms McNaughton being content to tender it. 34 35 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you. If that could be 36 received. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hall's CV will be CSI MFI-2. 39 40 CSI MFI-2 CURRICULUM VITAE OF DEAN JAMES HALL 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: I will just take a moment to read it. 43 Yes. 44 45 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 46 47 Q. One can see from that not only did you do a Bachelor


1 of Education, but you also did a Bachelor of Social Work? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. That was at the Australian Catholic University. You 5 studied part-time for that degree. What did you do other 6 than study during that period of time? 7 A. I worked as a welfare and occupational health and 8 safety trainer in the construction industry. 9 10 Q. And that -- 11 A. Oh, sorry, and the end part of it - that was the 12 beginning of the degree. By the time I finished it, it 13 took a while because I had a break, by the time I finished, 14 I was the Assistant Secretary of the Branch. 15 16 Q. So you also worked as an occupational health and 17 safety manager for Construction Control? 18 A. Correct. 19 20 Q. Is that a firm in the ACT? 21 A. It's a second tier construction company based in the 22 ACT. 23 24 Q. The CV also says between January 2007 and January 25 2009, you were CEO of Creative Safety Initiatives? 26 A. Correct. 27 28 Q. That is a role now held by Mr Jennings; is that right? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. Then you were elected as Assistant Secretary of the 32 CFMEU ACT Branch, so for effectively almost two full years 33 you held that position? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. All of 2009 and most of 2010. Then in January 2010 37 you became Secretary of the CFMEU ACT Branch? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. That was taking over, was it, from Sarah Schoonwater? 41 A. Schoonwater, yes. 42 43 Q. And you were re-elected in January 2013? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Can I ask you, please, sir, to look at CSI MFI-1, 47 that's the chart. Do you have one?


1 A. No. 2 3 Q. I will give you a hard copy. It is also coming up on 4 the screen should you prefer that. 5 A. Thank you. 6 7 Q. You became a director, if you look at the top 8 right-hand corner, of the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club 9 in January 2007. Does that accord with your recollection? 10 A. No. At that time I was a member - I was on the board 11 of the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club. 12 13 Q. Is that your recollection, is it? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. According to our records - we can come to them in a 17 moment to check - you became a director of the Woden 18 Tradesmen's Union Club later that same year? 19 A. Yes, that may - yes, it might - yes. Yes, I was a 20 director before, when I was originally - that's where I got 21 confused, sorry. I was a director before of the Woden 22 Tradesmen's Union Club before I went and worked back on 23 site and then when I came back, yes, I was made a director 24 - I was appointed a director. 25 26 Q. What caused you to become a director of these two 27 clubs? 28 A. At the time I was asked by the Secretary - oh, the 29 Chair of the board, sorry. 30 31 Q. Who was that? 32 A. Sarah Schoonwater. 33 34 Q. Then I think you became, also in June 2007, a director 35 of the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Community Fund 36 Limited? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. That would appear to be the same time you became a 40 director, again, of Woden? 41 A. That would have been the time that I came back to work 42 for the -- 43 44 Q. What did you understand the purpose of, if I can call 45 it, the CTUCCF was? What's your understanding? 46 A. It's a company limited by guarantee that is 47 responsible - it has roles in different parts of the


1 organisation. 2 3 Q. What sort of roles? 4 A. To look - one of them was - at the time that was the 5 appointing body for the board of the clubs. 6 7 Q. When you say "has roles in different parts of the 8 organisation", what organisation are you referring to? 9 A. The organisation - like Construction Charitable Works 10 had a role in -- 11 12 Q. Can we actually just be quite precise. You said 13 earlier the CTUCCF had a role in different parts of the 14 organisation. What do you mean? What do you mean by the 15 organisation? 16 A. The organisation is everything. 17 18 Q. Everything here? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Why do you say that it is an organisation? 22 A. Because it is for the benefit of the members of the 23 CFMEU, their families, and the communities they live in. 24 25 Q. The whole of the structure that appears on this page, 26 on this chart, you regard as an organisation set up to 27 benefit? 28 A. Oh, no, separate entities that are set up to benefit 29 the members and their families in the communities they live 30 in. 31 32 Q. Right. 33 A. But the end goal of all of them is for the end 34 stakeholder, which is our members of the CFMEU, because the 35 members of the CFMEU are also the members of the clubs, for 36 example. Even though they're separated, there's a 37 relationship because the end - the relationship I'm 38 describing is that the end result is the benefit to the 39 members and their families. 40 41 Q. EBAs of course cover people who are not Union members, 42 don't they? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Can I just continue on with this chart. It is 46 apparent that at the top left-hand corner, there were two 47 earlier organisations: Construction Industry Skills


1 Centre, known as CISC, and Construction Industry Training 2 and Employment Association known as CITEA or CITEA? 3 A. CITEA. 4 5 Q. Thank you. What do you call CISC, anything? 6 A. CISC. 7 8 Q. If we can call them CISC and CITEA, they came into 9 being, apparently, prior to your involvement; is that 10 right? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. What do you understand those two organisations did, 14 because they did continue, did they not? 15 A. Sorry? 16 17 Q. You became a committee member of both of those 18 organisations in 2007, didn't you? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. What did you understand those organisations did? 22 A. CITEA was a group training organisation, employed in 23 various times, but sometimes up to 200 apprentices, and it 24 provided their training, predominantly carpentry, 25 bricklaying, plastering, painting, but the predominant 26 apprentices were carpenters, carpentry apprentices. 27 CISC was the body that employed the employees of CITEA. 28 29 Q. Did CITEA provide training apart from apprentice 30 training? 31 A. Yes, it did. It had cadets as well, trainee cadets in 32 the construction industry, and it did some - I believe at 33 some time it did White Card induction or general induction 34 into the construction industry and some other occupational 35 health and safety training, but the genre of the business 36 was to the group training and training the apprentices. 37 38 Q. Why, then, was it thought necessary to set up another 39 training organisation? 40 A. Well, because - the predominant thing that short 41 courses were being done by the other training company, not 42 apprenticeships. It really wasn't specialised. It wasn't 43 set up, CITEA, to do the occupational health and safety 44 training. What you're looking at is they were set up to do 45 the training of apprentices and CSI, or Construction 46 Employment Training and Welfare, the trustee for CSI, it 47 was set up to do occupational health and safety. It's


1 quite different types of things. 2 3 Q. Before CETW CSI, as I have referred to it, was set up, 4 there was a company called Creative Safety Initiatives 5 Pty Ltd. That's on the left-hand side of the chart. 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. It now has a name of several numbers instead of 9 Creative Safety Initiatives Pty Ltd. That's so it is not 10 confused, isn't it, with the CETW CSI arrangement? 11 A. I'm not sure. 12 13 Q. You're not sure? 14 A. I'm not sure why it has numbers like that, no, I'm not 15 sure. I could ask my accountant. 16 17 Q. Well, you were on the board of Creative Safety 18 Initiatives Pty Ltd between 18 January 2010, when Mr O'Mara 19 also came on to the board, as did Mr Driver, Mr Docker and 20 Mr Brennan, and you ceased being on that board on 21 March 21 2012. What did that organisation not do, such that you 22 needed to set up a wholly new structure? 23 A. Nothing. Nothing different. 24 25 Q. Right. Well, why was a wholly new structure set up? 26 A. We received - we often have reviews and we get - the 27 accountant pointed out that to benefit the ultimate 28 shareholders, which is the members of the CFMEU, that a 29 trust would be a more effective way to do that. 30 31 Q. The shareholder of CSI Pty Ltd, and we will come to 32 the documents in a moment, was the CTUCCF, wasn't it? 33 That's the one on the right-hand side of the page. 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. You said that CSI Pty Ltd was - the ultimate 37 shareholders were the members of the CFMEU? 38 A. Correct, because that's the clubs. It's connected to 39 clubs, because it was started by the clubs, and the members 40 of the - the members of the Union are the members of the - 41 are the owners of the club, so it ultimately benefits them. 42 43 Q. Why is it not just done in one big organisation if 44 it's so clear? Why are all these different organisations 45 set up? 46 A. I think it's down to people with specialist skills, an 47 organisation with specialist skills. So, you know, a


1 training company is totally different then to a social 2 club, and people have different skills. 3 4 Q. Is that the only reason this structure with all these 5 different organisations has been set up? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Just because of special skills? 9 A. Skills and having people focusing on what they're 10 doing, so it is important. Like, if it is about the 11 charity, it's focusing on providing welfare services. With 12 the training company, it is concentrating on training. If 13 it is a social club of the Union members, then it is 14 concentrating on making sure that business runs correctly. 15 16 Q. To your understanding, in the latest incarnation of 17 the training organisation, for example, why isn't it just 18 called CFMEU Training? 19 A. It was just a marketing - it's marketing. CSI is 20 catchy because of the television shows. I actually came up 21 with the name. 22 23 Q. It wasn't in order to deflect attention from the fact 24 that it was closely associated with the CFMEU, was it? 25 A. Without a doubt, some stigmatism comes with unions. 26 There are some people who don't like union people. It's 27 hard to believe but there are people out there that don't 28 like unionists, and we didn't want the company to be, 29 you know, unfortunately tarnished by people who not - 30 possibly not use it because it's a Union training company. 31 32 Q. Is that the same with Construction Charitable Works, 33 because that could have been called CFMEU Charity? 34 A. I think that's more of a reflection of the work it 35 does. 36 37 Q. And that's all? 38 A. Yes. I came up with that name as well. 39 40 Q. We'll come to the BUILT-PLUS situation a bit later. 41 You say that it's simply for specialisation that these 42 different organisations were set up? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. And that it was a marketing reason only that, for 46 example, CSI was called that and not the CFMEU Training -- 47 A. Stigmatising too.


1 2 Q. Stigmatising. 3 A. Marketing in the stigmatising of unionists. 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Could I just go back to an earlier 6 point. The Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Community Fund 7 Limited is a company in relation to which you spoke of the 8 benefit of the ultimate shareholders which you said were 9 the members of the CFMEU? 10 A. Their families and the communities they live in as 11 well. 12 13 Q. And the communities, yes. Now, that company, 14 apparently, has two members, according to the chart, and 15 they are: Woden Tradesmen's Club Limited and Canberra 16 Tradesmen's Union Club Limited. Who are the members, for 17 example, of the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club Limited? They 18 are members of the CFMEU who just want to be members of a 19 social club, is that the idea? 20 A. No, you automatically get it with your membership. 21 22 Q. I see. 23 A. So when you join the CFMEU, you get membership to the 24 social clubs as part of joining the Union. 25 26 Q. Of both of those -- 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. Both the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club Limited and the 30 Canberra Tradesmen's -- 31 A. Geographically, they're right on opposite sides of 32 Canberra. 33 34 Q. Those two clubs don't have any other members? 35 A. Yes, they do. 36 37 Q. If we just looked at the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club 38 Limited, quite a number of members would be CFMEU members 39 but some of the people would not be CFMEU members? 40 A. Like many clubs, there's classes of membership. 41 42 Q. It is not simply a mass of members of whom some happen 43 to be members of your Union and some don't, there are 44 special categories, are there? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. Different rights attaching to particular classes?


1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Do we have the relevant documents? 3 4 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: All right. 7 8 Q. It is perhaps best to look at the documents. I am 9 sure your opinions and recollection are sound, but the 10 documents are probably sounder. Just one small thing 11 Mr Hall. Could you just speak up a bit? 12 A. Yes, sorry, I will sit a bit closer. 13 14 Q. It is a bit hard to hear what you're saying. These 15 proceedings are watched by some people on broadcast and it 16 is a bit hard for them to hear unless we -- 17 A. Sorry. Is that better? 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: That's better. Yes, thank you. 20 21 MS McNAUGHTON: This might be a convenient time, 22 Commissioner, to provide for reception into evidence six 23 volumes of material. 24 25 THE COMMISSIONER: Subject to the rights of Mr Agius and 26 Mr Borgeest to object to any documents they haven't had a 27 chance to look at yet, those six bundles will be known as 28 CSI MFI-3. 29 30 MS McNAUGHTON: They're labelled, as I understand it - and 31 they are already with the Commission, I understand - 32 "Examination Bundles Volumes 1 through to 6". 33 34 CSI MFI-3 SIX VOLUMES TITLED "EXAMINATION BUNDLES" 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 37 38 MS McNAUGHTON: Could volume 1 first be provided to the 39 witness. 40 41 Q. You have volume 1 of CSI MFI-3 before you, sir. Could 42 I invite you, please, to start at tab 1. This is the 43 Australian Securities Investments Commission Historical 44 Company Extract for CETW Limited, that being the entity in 45 the middle of the chart, just to remind people. We can see 46 halfway down that page under the "current organisation 47 details" the name started on 29 July and it was registered


1 on that day. It is an Australian public company, limited 2 by a guarantee, and it is bound by a constitution; do you 3 see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Then the directors are set out. They include - it 7 should match what's on the chart and that's Dean Hall, 8 that's yourself, Stephen Brennan, Robert Docker; do you see 9 that? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. Previous directors are Jason Jennings and 13 Jason O'Mara. This is over to the next page, if we could, 14 please. Do you see under the heading "Previous directors"? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. They ceased on 3 March 2014 and they were replaced by 18 Mr Brennan and Mr Docker. Do you know why those people 19 were replaced? 20 A. Two reasons. Time of the - they had limited time and 21 also we wanted to broaden the skill-set on the board. 22 23 Q. Did it have anything to do at all with the 24 announcement of this Royal Commission? 25 A. No. 26 27 Q. You would be aware, wouldn't you, that there was a 28 press release about the Royal Commission in February 2014; 29 that it was going to be set up? 30 A. I can't recall that. You know, there probably was but 31 I can't remember that. 32 33 Q. Can I show you this document. Do you see that that is 34 a press release that is dated 10 February 2014 and it is 35 from the Office of the Prime Minister; do you see that? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. It is announcing the institution of the Royal 39 Commission into Trade Union Governance and Corruption. Do 40 you see that? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Do you say that the announcement of this 44 Royal Commission with also the potential Terms of Reference 45 of it which included, if you go over to page 2: 46 47 The governance arrangements of any separate


1 entities established by registered employee 2 associations or their officers ... 3 4 A. Where is that, sorry? 5 6 Q. Halfway down under the heading "Terms of Reference", 7 it is up on the screen on page 2. 8 A. Yes. Which one, sorry? 9 10 Q. Number 1. 11 A. Okay, yes. 12 13 Q. 14 (1) The governance arrangements of any 15 separate entities established by registered 16 employee associations, or their officers, 17 purportedly for industrial purposes, or for 18 the welfare of their members with 19 particular regard to the financial 20 management of such entities ... 21 22 And it goes on: 23 24 ... raising integrity of financial 25 management and accountability. 26 27 Do you say that that had nothing to do with the replacement 28 of Mr Jennings and Mr O'Mara on the board of this company? 29 A. Yes, that's correct. Actually, the decision - what 30 actually happened is we sat down probably at least 31 12 months before that and made the decision that it would 32 be important to, because people were busy, to broaden so 33 they can be free to do other things, and also we talked to 34 Rob and Steve about coming on. It was tardiness on 35 probably my behalf and the Company Secretary's behalf that 36 the change wasn't made earlier. 37 38 Q. Prior to the change, the three directors were all 39 officials of the CFMEU? 40 A. Correct. 41 42 Q. And then after the change the balance of power, so to 43 speak, was away from the CFMEU; is that right? They 44 weren't officials of the CFMEU, were they? 45 A. I don't know about the terms. Could you just explain? 46 47 Q. I will withdraw that. The new men were not officials


1 of the CFMEU; that's right, isn't it? 2 A. Correct. 3 4 MS McNAUGHTON: If that could be received into evidence, 5 Commissioner. 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: That will be CSI MFI-4. 8 9 CSI MFI-4 PRESS RELEASE DATED 10/02/2014 ANNOUNCING THE 10 INSTITUTION OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION 11 GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION 12 13 THE WITNESS: They were the CEO of the Tradies Club and 14 the CFO of the Tradies Club. 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Just to continue -- 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hall, when you say Tradies Club -- 19 A. The Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club and Woden 20 Tradesmen's Union Club. 21 22 Q. They are respectively the CEO and the CFO of each of 23 those two clubs? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. They have a trading name, I think, 27 of the Tradies Club? 28 A. A brand. It's a brand name, but the company 29 registered, if you search it, will come up as Canberra 30 Tradesmen's Union Club and Woden Tradesmen's Union Club. 31 32 Q. I think we will come to that. Would you be kind 33 enough to turn over to tab 2. Do you see there that number 34 119 585 821 Pty Ltd which was in its earlier form Creative 35 Safety Initiatives Pty Ltd and that the name changed, you 36 can see, on 5 April 2012. Do you see that under "Current 37 Organisational Detail"? 38 A. No, I can't see that, sorry. There it is, there, yes, 39 5 April - 5/4/2012. 40 41 Q. That's right. And Creative Safety Initiatives, if you 42 go to the next little -- 43 A. Next box down. 44 45 Q. The Name start was 15 May 2006; do you see that? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. Then going over the page, the current directors, it 2 would appear: Mr Driver, Mr Docker, Mr Brennan and 3 Mr Scott; do you see that? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. And the previous directors: Mr O'Mara, yourself, and 7 then there's a whole lot of other people, I think, in the 8 previous regime, would it be fair to say, of the CFMEU, 9 based in part, Ms Schoonwater, for example? 10 A. Sorry, I just lost that. 11 12 Q. Would you look at page 6 of the volume. 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. There's a recurring date, it would appear, on page 6, 16 that Ms Schoonwater, Ms Churchward, they both ceased as 17 directors on 18 January 2010; do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. If you go back to page 5, you and Mr O'Mara started on 21 18 January 2010. Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. That coincides almost exactly, does it not, when you 25 became Secretary of the CFMEU ACT? 26 A. Yes, Acting Secretary. I would have been acting 27 because it has to be -- 28 29 Q. Elected? 30 A. No, it has to be endorsed at that time by the 31 Committee of Management. 32 33 Q. Did that occur later that month, in January 2010? 34 A. It would have been that month or the next meeting in 35 February. 36 37 Q. But that was certainly everyone's hope and intention 38 at that time? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. If we could go next to tab 3. Do you see here a 42 print-out, or what would appear to be a print-out from the 43 internet, in relation to CSI? 44 A. Yes. Yes. 45 46 Q. There's various courses set out there; do you see 47 that?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Is there any indication there of involvement with the 4 CFMEU at this point? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. There is? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Is that on page 24? 11 A. I think - sorry, it's on - the 3 - 3 of 3, there's the 12 logo. 13 14 Q. Yes. That's a similar logo as is on page 24? 15 A. Sorry, I'm not - page 24. I can't find that. Oh, 16 there, yes, on the screen? 17 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. There's CITEA, there's CCW, there's CFMEU, there's 22 Northside Fitness Clinic? 23 A. Centre. It's a gym. 24 25 Q. Centre, sorry. Quality Hotel and the Tradies. 26 They've all got some, what, public involvement? 27 A. They're all for the benefit of the members and their 28 families and the community that we live in. 29 30 Q. The Northside Fitness Centre, do you know what contact 31 that has with CSI? 32 A. Contact? 33 34 Q. Or any relationship? 35 A. In what sense? 36 37 Q. Does it have any relationship? 38 A. No. 39 40 Q. No? 41 A. No. 42 43 Q. What about -- 44 A. The members get -- 45 46 Q. -- Quality Hotel? 47 A. That members get subsidy - members of the Union get


1 subsidised gym memberships if they go there. 2 3 Q. Right. 4 A. It's owned by the Tradies Club, so the members of the 5 Tradies Club are the members of the Union, and they go to 6 Northside Fitness and get a subsidy. 7 8 Q. If you go to page 18 of the folder, that's the page 9 which is familiar to users of the internet where 10 organisations have a section called "About", and this is 11 "About CSI". Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. It says it is: 15 16 ... an ACT based organisation committed to 17 continuing focus on improving safety 18 standards in the building and construction 19 industry ... 20 21 And it goes on. Do you see that? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. At the last paragraph of that page, it says: 25 26 Creative Safety Initiatives represents a 27 group of dedicated individuals who are 28 committing to creating safe work 29 environments ... 30 31 Et cetera. Do you see there that there's no indication 32 that there's any relationship to the CFMEU -- 33 A. There's the logo underneath it. 34 35 Q. -- other than the logo, but there is nothing in the 36 written word? 37 A. That wording is about the individual employees. 38 You've got to read it in context. 39 40 Q. Right. 41 A. It is talking about the people who work for the 42 company have a commitment. 43 44 Q. Do you say elsewhere on the internet in relation to 45 CSI, it is clear that there's some sort of financial 46 relationship between CSI and CFMEU? 47 A. I think if you physically come to see where CSI is,


1 you've got to walk through the foyer of the CFMEU to get to 2 it. 3 4 Q. Right. 5 A. And often people who come from courses turn up at the 6 Union's foyer and ask us where the course is. We're 7 co-located together. 8 9 Q. Could we now turn, please, to tab 4. You might 10 recall, back at tab 1, that CETW Limited was a company 11 bound by constitution; do you recall that? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. At tab 4, here we apparently have the constitution of 15 CETW Limited. Before I go to that, could I just ask in 16 relation to the co-location of CSI and CFMEU, was it always 17 the case? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. It has never been through any location associated with 21 the Tradies? 22 A. At one time it was in the Tradies Club, yes. That was 23 during when we were getting new office space. 24 25 Q. When was that? 26 A. I couldn't - I can go and find that out for you, but 27 I wouldn't be able to -- 28 29 Q. How long a period was that? 30 A. I'm not sure. I could find - it was not a very long 31 period of time. 32 33 Q. Before I get to this, were courses or are courses run 34 by CSI always run on site, or do you run them at other 35 sites as well? 36 A. One of the good things about it is our ability to 37 actually go to where the people are. We're one of the few, 38 I think the only company, that actually goes on to site and 39 does it in site sheds. We have portable equipment. 40 I actually started the company and that's what I did and, 41 before that, I was actually a trainer. So we would take 42 portable equipment on site for builders. The big benefit 43 of that is it minimises the downtime away from production, 44 so the employers like that. 45 46 Q. When you say that "it is obvious from", because you're 47 co-located, that the CFMEU and CSI have a relationship,


1 that's not the case, is it, if people aren't going to those 2 premises for their training and the training on site of the 3 workplace? 4 A. I wouldn't - I can't be in the mind of what other 5 people do. 6 7 Q. When training is delivered, to your knowledge, is it 8 made clear that the CFMEU has a financial relationship with 9 CSI? 10 A. I don't think - I don't think people stand up and say 11 that, no. It would be a strange thing to say. You know, 12 like, as a professional trainer, I wouldn't get up and say 13 that. I don't think anyone in the country would say 14 something like that. 15 16 Q. Is it made clear during the course of negotiations for 17 enterprise agreements? 18 A. I think - I don't do many EBAs. 19 20 Q. You said you don't do many; that indicates you might 21 do some? 22 A. Well, I'm not involved in the actual going through the 23 clauses. What I do do is when there's a large project, 24 like a major infrastructure project, I would sit down at 25 the beginning with the people involved and talk in general 26 terms about what we wanted to achieve, but I'm not involved 27 in the day-to-day operation or negotiation of individual 28 clauses. 29 30 Q. To your knowledge, is it made clear that CSI has a 31 financial relationship to the CFMEU when the enterprise 32 agreements are being negotiated? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. How do you know that? 36 A. Well, that's just my - that people would know. We're 37 just together. We're in the same location. I originally 38 started the company, I'm the Chair of the Board, I don't 39 hide that, and I'm the Secretary of the Union. 40 41 Q. You say -- 42 A. I don't hide the fact. 43 44 Q. --"would know". 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. You say "people would know"?


1 A. I often tell people that CSI is the Union training 2 company. 3 4 Q. But you say that you're not directly involved with 5 negotiating individual clauses within enterprise 6 agreements; that's right? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. When I said: 10 11 Q. To your knowledge, is it made clear 12 that CSI has a financial relationship to 13 the CFMEU when the enterprise agreements 14 are being negotiated? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Is that entirely strictly true? 18 A. That's my understanding. 19 20 Q. Is it made clear during the course of negotiations to 21 your knowledge -- 22 A. When I talk to the officials involved, yes. 23 24 Q. The officials of the Union involved? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. And what do they say? 28 A. Well, they say - it's common that I say that it is 29 important that people - you know, it's open and transparent 30 that it is the Union training company. 31 32 Q. You give them your view, but do you know that that's 33 being actually conveyed during the course of negotiations 34 for this clause? 35 A. No, I believe it would be, you're right, yes. 36 37 Q. So you don't know? 38 A. Well, the times that - the few times I've been 39 involved it has been - you know, where I've seen it happen, 40 on a few occasions - I can't guarantee it happens every 41 time, but on the times I've been involved, it happens. 42 43 Q. If you've done so few of them, can you tell the 44 Commission which companies they relate to? 45 A. I wouldn't be able to recall that now, no. 46 47 Q. You say you only do a few yourself.


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. So they must loom large in your mind? 4 A. One is probably the final negotiations with the 5 formworkers. 6 7 Q. When was that? 8 A. It would have been the 2013 agreement, so it was 9 2013/12, around that time. 10 11 Q. You say that you made it clear, do you, to the 12 formworkers that there was a financial relationship between 13 CSI -- 14 A. No. I think my understanding is it was made clear in 15 the meeting. 16 17 Q. Where did you get your understanding from? 18 A. Just the people were moving through the agreement and 19 understanding the relationship. 20 21 Q. Were you there when that occurred? 22 A. That particular clause? 23 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. I'm unsure now. 26 27 Q. Again, are you just saying you assume that it occurred 28 but you don't know? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. Is that the only one you can specifically remember? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Can we now go, as I was planning to, to tab 4, to see 35 the constitution of CETW Limited. Just so you know what's 36 here, 26 is the cover page, 27 is the Certificate of 37 Registration of a Company, and then we start on page 28 of 38 the bundle with the first page of the constitution and 39 there's the name, there are various interpretations, and 40 then if we go over to page 29 to the "Objects". The 41 Objects which the company is established are: 42 43 (a) To support the members, families and 44 community of the Construction, Forestry 45 Mining & Energy Union ACT Branch (or its 46 successor) by providing employment, 47 education, welfare, training and leisure


1 for the well being, both physical and 2 mental, to the members, families and 3 community of the [CFMEU]. 4 5 (b) to promote the health, employment 6 services and welfare of the members, 7 families and community of the [CFMEU] ... 8 and 9 10 (c) to do all such acts as are incidental 11 and conducive to the furtherance of the 12 above objects. 13 14 Were you involved in the setting up of those Objects, the 15 drafting of them? 16 A. I can't remember. 17 18 Q. Then can we go, please, to page 32, "Income and 19 Property", clause 7: 20 21 (a) The income and property of the company 22 whencesoever derived must be applied solely 23 towards the promotion of the objects of the 24 company as set forth in this constitution; 25 26 (b) Subject to clause 8, no portion of the 27 income and property of the company may be 28 paid or transferred directly or indirectly 29 by way of dividend, bonus or otherwise 30 howsoever to members or directors of the 31 company. 32 33 Do you see that? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Can we go over to page 33 and then see the heading 37 "Guarantee by members". Do you see there: 38 39 Every member of the company undertakes to 40 contribute to the property of the 41 company ... 42 43 Et cetera, in the event of its winding up and like things. 44 Then we go down, on that same page, to "Membership", 45 clause 13: 46 47 The following persons are the first members


1 of the company ... 2 3 There's your name, Mr O'Mara and Mr Jennings. You're 4 written into the constitution, and then over the page, 5 paragraph 15: 6 7 Every applicant for membership must: 8 9 (a) be nominated by one and seconded by 10 another member of the company to both of 11 whom the applicant is personally known; 12 13 (b) sign an application for membership ... 14 15 Et cetera; and: 16 17 (c) undertakes to pay a fee. 18 19 Then it says this at clause 16: 20 21 A member must be an elected official of: 22 23 (i) the committee of management of the 24 Construction, Forestry, Mining & Energy 25 Union ... or the [CFMEU]. 26 27 So, an elected official of the Committee of Management, or 28 an elected official of the CFMEU; do you see that? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. Keep your hand in that bit of the paper and go over to 32 page 39. The "Board of Directors", halfway down the page, 33 and at 44: 34 35 The members of the board of the company 36 must be members of the company. 37 38 Do you see that? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Do you see a problem there with the current directors 42 then? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Because Mr Brennan and Mr Docker, as you agreed 46 earlier, were not elected officials? 47 A. Correct.


1 2 Q. Were you aware of that before now? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. When did you become aware of that? 6 A. When we got the Notice to Produce and our lawyers 7 started going through it. I'm taking legal advice and 8 rectifying that situation. 9 10 Q. Are you able to say what you intend to do about it? 11 A. I've got lawyers who are going to give me advice and 12 then I'm going to act upon it. 13 14 Q. So you haven't determined a course yet? 15 A. No, that's why I've got the lawyers to advise me. 16 17 Q. Certainly. But I gather from that that they haven't 18 finished advising you? 19 A. No, they haven't. 20 21 Q. When the former directors, Mr Jennings and Mr O'Mara, 22 resigned and Mr Brennan and Mr Docker came on board, was 23 that sort of an urgent thing happening, was it? 24 A. No. Like I said before, it just was tardiness by 25 myself and the company Secretary. We discussed it quite a 26 while before it happened but it just didn't - we didn't 27 enact it. 28 29 Q. You didn't think to obtain legal advice at that point? 30 A. No, but I've definitely learnt that I will be from now 31 on. 32 33 Q. You didn't have handy to you at that time the 34 constitution? 35 A. I didn't refer to the constitution, no. 36 37 Q. So that is the CETW Limited constitution. Before 38 I leave that, can we just go to page 39 again and look at 39 clause 48: 40 41 The appointment of the directors must take 42 place in the manner determined by the 43 Secretary from time to time of the [CFMEU] 44 ACT ... 45 46 So that would be you? 47 A. At this time, yes.


1 2 Q. Clause 47 says: 3 4 The directors are to be appointed from 5 among the members of the company ... 6 7 At the general meeting. 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. So your lawyers are looking at all of that? 11 A. Correct. 12 13 Q. Could we go then to tab 5. CETW Limited, where we've 14 just been looking, is the trustee of a trust? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. You say, do you, that you were involved in setting up 18 this new structure? 19 A. Setting up the trust? No, I got expert. 20 21 Q. Were you behind the idea of setting up -- 22 A. No. 23 24 Q. -- the new structure? 25 A. No. 26 27 Q. Not at all? 28 A. No. It was brought to me as an - brought to us as a 29 board as an idea. 30 31 Q. Who from? 32 A. The accountant. 33 34 Q. Who is the accountant? 35 A. Stephen Brennan. He's the company Secretary as well. 36 37 Q. Did you ask him: Why do we need to bother changing 38 over from a company to a trust situation? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. And what did he say? 42 A. He said you can maximise the benefit to the end 43 shareholders, which is the members and their families and 44 the community. 45 46 Q. Did he say how that was to occur, that maximisation of 47 the benefit?


1 A. He said the trust would flow through and the most 2 amount of money would flow to be used for the benefit of 3 the members and their families. 4 5 Q. Do you know why it was more benefit through a trust 6 structure as compared to a straight company structure? 7 A. We were just advised it was the most efficient way to 8 do it by the accountant. 9 10 Q. You've known Mr Brennan, it would appear, at least 11 from your associations on companies for a long time? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Did you say, "Well, why is it so effective? Why is it 15 going to be more effective financially than the straight 16 company structure?"? 17 A. He said it would maximise the return because the trust 18 would go through to the Union, and then the most amount of 19 money would flow through. 20 21 Q. Why would it be different to a company? 22 A. I'm not a trust - I'm not a trust lawyer or an 23 accountant. I rely on expert people's advice. 24 25 Q. Was it anything to do with making the connection with 26 the CFMEU one further step removed? 27 A. No. 28 29 Q. Did that come up in discussion at all? 30 A. No. 31 32 Q. Could we just go to the Discretionary Trust Deed for 33 the Creative Safety Initiatives Trust which is at tab 5. 34 Just note on the way through -- 35 A. Sorry, I lost you there. Are we going backwards? 36 37 Q. No. 38 A. Tab 5. This one here, sorry, yes. The one that's in 39 front of me. 40 41 Q. Yes. Page 50. We see the Settlor is a person called 42 Jon Elwood; who is that? 43 A. Sorry? 44 45 Q. Who is Jon Elwood, the Settlor? 46 A. I think he was the lawyer. 47


1 Q. Then it says that CETW Limited is the trustee? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. Under the heading "Background", it says: 5 6 The Settlor wishes to provide for the 7 Beneficiaries in the manner set out in this 8 Deed. 9 10 Do you see that? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. And then: 14 15 The parties agree 16 17 And then the "Definitions" section starts and under 1.2 of 18 the "Definitions" section there's "Beneficiary" and that 19 includes "each Designated Beneficiary". Do you see that 20 under (a)? 21 A. Sorry, no, I don't. Down the bottom of the page? 22 23 Q. Sorry, the last thing on page 50. 24 A. Yes, I've got that one. 25 26 Q. Beneficiaries means, then it has: 27 28 (a) each Designated Beneficiary; 29 30 Do you see that? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Then it says: 34 35 (b) each trust in which any of the 36 Designated Beneficiary is a present, 37 contingent or prospective beneficiary; 38 39 And on it goes, "Each corporation", et cetera. It also 40 says: 41 42 (g) a Charity or Charities the Trustee 43 nominates from time to time; 44 45 Do you see that? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. And then at 1.3, the Capital Default Beneficiary 2 means: 3 4 The president or secretary of the [CFMEU] 5 ACT Branch ... (or its successor) for and 6 on behalf of and for the benefit of the 7 [CFMEU] ACT Branch ... or 8 9 if the [CFMEU] ACT Branch ... ceases to 10 exist, then as appointed by the Trustee; 11 12 Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Was that explained to you carefully -- 16 A. I can't -- 17 18 Q. -- at the time? 19 A. I can't recollect. 20 21 Q. So the President or the Secretary is essentially the 22 beneficiary? 23 A. On behalf of the Branch. 24 25 Q. Yes. That's an important -- 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. -- role? 29 A. Yes. On behalf of the members, yes. 30 31 Q. What do you understand "on behalf of the members" 32 means? Do you understand what a term like that means? 33 A. I'm not sure what you're asking me, sorry. 34 35 Q. You were quick to add in to your answer -- 36 A. "On behalf of members", yes. 37 38 Q. -- yes, "on behalf of the members". 39 A. Everything goes back to members and their families and 40 the communities they live in, because that's how it works. 41 We're not a company, we are an association, the Union is. 42 43 Q. Do you understand what a fiduciary duty is? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. What do you understand that to be? 47 A. I've got to act in the best interests of the - there's


1 a number of other things but I can't - but the big key one 2 is you must act at all times in the best interests. 3 4 Q. So you or the President, do you understand, has to act 5 in the best interests of your members? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Is that at all times? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Then we go over to 1.9 at page 52 of the bundle which 12 says Designated Beneficiary means: 13 14 The president or secretary of the [CFMEU] 15 ACT Branch ... (or its successor) for and 16 on behalf of and for the benefit of the 17 [CFMEU] ACT Branch ... 18 19 Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Then it goes on: 23 24 any person or entity, which the Trustee 25 determines at its sole discretion, as 26 having similar purposes, activities and 27 membership criteria, as the [CFMEU] ACT 28 Branch ... (or its successor); and 29 30 any other person or entity the Trustee may 31 appoint to be a beneficiary in writing from 32 time to time in his absolute discretion; 33 34 Are you aware of any other designated beneficiaries apart 35 from you or the President? 36 A. I would have to get advice. I'm not sure. I don't 37 think so. 38 39 Q. 1.10: 40 41 'Distributed Income' means any part of the 42 Trust Fund which the Trustee determines to 43 Pay under clause 8; 44 45 Which we will come to in due course. We've got at 1.14 46 "Income Default Beneficiary", do you see that? Down the 47 bottom of page 52 over to the top of page 53, 1.14, again,


1 "the president or secretary of the [CFMEU] ACT Branch", 2 et cetera, and the familiar terms? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. And then we've also got a Nominator at 1.16, "the 6 chairman for the time being the Canberra Tradesmen's Union 7 Club Limited". Do you know why that was included? 8 A. No, I'm not sure. 9 10 Q. "Trust" is defined, just to be clear at 1.24, means 11 "the Creative Safety Initiatives Trust". You indicated 12 earlier, sir, that you were behind at least the name 13 thought up for CSI? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. You thought it was catchy? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. And they had to fit words to fit those initials? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Page 55 at point 3: 23 24 The trusts created by this Deed will be 25 known as the Creative Safety Initiatives 26 Trust. 27 28 Et cetera. We've got various roles for the Nominator 29 appearing, for example, at page 56 at 4.3.3 and that 30 basically applies, do you see, if the trustee dies without 31 a successor, et cetera, or is not around, and then the 32 Nominator steps in. Do you see that? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. On to page 57, "Discretion": 36 37 Each Trustee ... has an absolute and 38 uncontrolled discretion in the exercise of 39 the authorities and powers vested in it by 40 this Deed. 41 42 Right? The trustee, we have seen, is CETW Limited? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Do you see that? You were on both CETW Limited and 46 you're head of the CFMEU -- 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. -- with your fiduciary duty? Do you see any problem 3 in having those two roles? 4 A. No. 5 6 Q. Then we've got a "Conflict of Interest" section at 7 page 69. 8 A. 69 down the bottom? 9 10 Q. Yes, 69 at the bottom or page 20. 11 A. Okay. 12 13 Q. And that's clause 27. 14 A. Sorry, I'm just not there yet. 27. 15 16 Q. That's set out in these terms: 17 18 27.1 Exercise of powers 19 20 The Trustee may exercise any of its powers 21 notwithstanding that the Trustee or a 22 director of the Trustee or any one or more 23 of the Beneficiaries may be directly or 24 indirectly interested in any transaction. 25 26 Do you see that? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. Was that known to you -- 30 A. Sorry, I'm just reading that. I didn't -- 31 32 Q. You didn't know about that? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. And then: 36 37 27.2 The Trustee may enter into any 38 contract with any of the directors of a 39 Trustee or any of the Beneficiaries or any 40 trustee or trustees of any other trust of 41 which any of the Beneficiaries is a 42 beneficiary, whether present, contingent or 43 prospective. 44 45 Going back to 27.1, you said you were never aware of that 46 clause before? 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. You, however, as head of the CFMEU, though, have to be 3 in a position where you fully disclose, don't you, any 4 potential conflict of interest to your members? 5 A. I'm not sure. Sorry? 6 7 Q. Do you believe, for example, in the negotiation of 8 EBAs, either by you or on behalf of the Union, of which you 9 are the head, essentially, that you should be disclosing 10 any conflict of interest? 11 A. Yes, to our members. 12 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. To the members? Yes. 15 16 Q. Could we go over then to the next tab and just see 17 under tab 6 -- 18 A. Sorry, tab 6. 19 20 Q. I'm sorry, just before we leave that, can I just go 21 back to page 57. 22 A. Sorry, hold on. 23 24 Q. Before we go to tab 6. 25 A. 57? 26 27 Q. Page 57 under tab 6, "Default Beneficiary". 28 A. I'm sorry, I'm just getting there. Sorry, 7? 29 30 Q. Page 57. 31 A. 57, sorry. 32 33 Q. Clause 9. 34 A. 9. 35 36 Q. "Default Beneficiaries": 37 38 The Income Default Beneficiary will be 39 absolutely entitled to the Undistributed 40 Income of an Accounting Period on the last 41 day of the Accounting Period if the Trustee 42 has not determined to do any one of the 43 things described in clause 8 ... 44 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. And "Trust Income" in clause 8 says:


1 2 Subject to clause 10 the Trustee may in 3 each Accounting Period determine to do any 4 one or more of the following: 5 6 8.1 Pay the Trust Income to or for any one 7 or more of the Beneficiaries; or. 8 9 8.2 accumulate the Trust Income. 10 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. Clause 10 is about the accumulation. Just to continue 14 over the page -- 15 A. Sorry, I'm just reading clause 10, sorry. Yes. 16 17 Q. "Method of Payment to Beneficiary": 18 19 ... crediting the amount to the Beneficiary 20 in the books of the Trust Fund; or. 21 22 ... Paying it to the Beneficiary for his or 23 her benefit. 24 25 Do you see that? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Was that explained to you when this structure was set 29 up? 30 A. Sorry, what was explained to me? 31 32 Q. The way it worked. 33 A. It was explained in general terms, yes. 34 35 Q. What was explained to you? 36 A. That it would be a trust and it would flow to the 37 Union. 38 39 Q. Could we go to tab 6 now, just looking at an RTO 40 report. RTO means? 41 A. Registered Training Organisation. 42 43 Q. That's registered with who? 44 A. ASQA. 45 46 Q. What are those initials? 47 A. It's the Government regulatory - let me actually read


1 that. I'd better make sure that it's registered. I'd 2 better not answer something that is wrong. Yes, it's 3 basically the Government authority that regulates training 4 in the -- 5 6 Q. You said "ASQA", I think. Is that A-S-Q-A or the 7 Australian Skills Quality Authority? 8 A. Yes, that's it down the bottom, I saw that down the 9 bottom. There's a lot of these pseudonyms. 10 11 Q. Over the page, we've got Mr Jason Jennings as the 12 Chief Executive Officer? 13 A. Correct. 14 15 Q. Do you recall when he became the Chief Executive 16 Officer of CSI or CETW CSI? 17 A. I can't recall. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Just on that point, your chart, 20 CSI MFI-1, is correct. Your actual opening was wrong. 21 Mr Jennings wasn't the CEO of the Trust. He was the CEO of 22 the Trustee. 23 24 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: We just need to bear that in mind when 27 looking at your opening. 28 29 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 30 31 Q. Is he still the CEO? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Then we go over to tab 7. We have financial reports 35 for what's called the CSI Trust? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. You've signed these particular ones for the year 39 ending 2013, page 86, 22 May 2014? 40 A. Sorry, I'm just getting there. Page 86? 41 42 Q. Yes. Do you see your signature there along with that 43 of Mr Docker? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Then over the next page do you see "Statement of 47 Comprehensive Income" for the year ending 31 December 2013?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. These are calendar year financial years rather than 4 the ones ending on 30 June? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. That's how you have always operated these -- 8 A. No. 9 10 Q. When did it change over? 11 A. I'm not sure. The accountant gave us advice. I'm not 12 sure on that. 13 14 Q. We see under "Income", "Program revenue", "Management 15 Income" and "Other Income", do you see that? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. It's compared between - we've got the 2012 figures and 19 we've got the 2013 figures, which is very familiar, 20 no doubt, to you? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. There seems to be a massive increase in program 24 revenue between, or some increase between 2012 and 2013, 25 between $947,000 and $1.1 million. Do you see that? 26 A. Yes, from $947,000 to $1.2 million, yes, basically. 27 28 Q. Then we have "Management Income" of $214,829 in 2013? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. And that was $198,000 in 2012? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Where is the "Management Income" from? 35 A. From Creative - from Construction Charitable Works. 36 37 Q. It is the case, isn't it, that Mr Jennings is also the 38 CEO of CCW? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Do you understand what work is done by CSI, if I can 42 call it that for short, CETW CSI, to earn $214,000 worth of 43 management income for CCW? 44 A. Management and services into the construction 45 industry. Management of the program and services into the 46 construction industry and administration. 47


1 Q. What percentage of Mr Jennings' time and energy do you 2 understand is devoted to CCW as opposed to his work for 3 CETW CSI? 4 A. Sorry, I'm not sure of the question. 5 6 Q. What percentage of Mr Jennings' time and energy do you 7 understand is devoted to CCW when compared to his work for 8 CETW CSI? 9 A. It would be hard because I'm not directly involved in 10 the day-to-day operation, but I believe it would be 11 probably a fifty-fifty split, or 60-40, fifty-fifty, 12 something like that. 13 14 Q. Fifty-fifty, you say? 15 A. Approximately. I'm not involved in the daily 16 operation of the company or the charity. 17 18 Q. He also, though, is President of the CFMEU; that's 19 right, isn't it? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Does he do any work in that role? 23 A. No, it's an honorary position. Oh, he chairs the 24 Board - he chairs the Committee of Management, not the 25 Board. It's an honorary position. 26 27 Q. He doesn't give much of his time to that role? 28 A. Well, at the time he would do - it would not be part 29 of his working. He's committed to the Union, he believes 30 in it, like we all do. 31 32 Q. Where, geographically speaking, is your office 33 compared to that of Mr Jennings? 34 A. Approximately 80 metres away. 35 36 Q. 80? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Down a corridor or upstairs? 40 A. No, open, two separate buildings. 41 42 Q. Two separate buildings? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. You're in CFMEU offices? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. And he is, what, you have to go out and in again? 2 A. Yes, you have to go out and you have to walk down a 3 pathway and then you enter into another building. 4 5 Q. Do you have much day-to-day dealings with Mr Jennings? 6 A. We go to the gym occasionally together. 7 8 Q. What about professionally? 9 A. And I have lunch with him occasionally. 10 11 Q. What about meetings in a professional capacity? 12 A. As the Chair of the Board he would come to me about 13 various issues, probably on a, you know, a couple of times 14 a week. 15 16 Q. You're a director of a company of which he is the CEO; 17 in fact, you're a director of two companies of which he is 18 CEO, that's right isn't it? 19 A. Correct. 20 21 Q. Do you ever talk to him about his role in relation to 22 either of those two companies? 23 A. In what context, sorry? 24 25 Q. Well, in a professional context? 26 A. I'm not sure. 27 28 Q. Did you say, "How's business"? 29 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. 30 31 Q. From those sorts of conversations would you find out 32 how much he's doing for his CSI work versus his CCW work? 33 A. On occasions I would be able to work out what's going 34 on because an example would be a couple of weeks ago, or a 35 week before this all started, we had a couple of members 36 who were suicidal and they contacted the Union and we then 37 contacted Jason Jennings to arrange that the field officers 38 would go out and deal with those suicidal members. We had 39 two on one day, which sticks in my mind because it was two 40 people suicidal on a day is not pleasant but quite unique, 41 and we had to call - what we do is is when that happens, we 42 call Jason and he works with the field officers to make 43 sure we get proper support services to the members. 44 45 Q. What do you mean by "field officers"? What 46 organisation are they from? 47 A. They're from CSI. They're seconded across. It's part


1 of the management fee that the actual - we have two field 2 officers and an administration team, it is probably 3 equivalent to about two full-time positions, that is used 4 in the charity and that's - you know, if we get people with 5 drug and alcohol problems, apprentices who become homeless, 6 we supply emergency accommodation for apprentices, so the 7 field officers - Jason does a lot of it himself. He's very 8 passionate about it, he does after-hours work, and we also 9 have field officers who go out, which are the trainers, 10 they also have a dual role of training in the training 11 company, but those - they're very experienced construction 12 workers who have been in the industry a long time, so they 13 can go out and they have a great understanding of what the 14 industry is like and the people in the industry and so 15 what - that's how it sort of happens and we get - 16 unfortunately, the suicide rate in the construction 17 industry is the highest for male - the highest suicide rate 18 and we've got big issues around drug and alcohol in the 19 construction industry and we've got a lot of marriage 20 breakdowns, it's higher than the national - so we have a 21 lot of particularly men, because it's male dominated, 22 having issues with separation from their children, so we go 23 out and the field officers go out and Jason goes out and 24 talks to those members and hooks them up to appropriate 25 services. 26 27 Q. You say the field officers are trainers for CSI? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. And also field officers for CCW? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time? 34 35 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. We will resume at 10 to 12? 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: The hearing will resume at 11.50am. 40 41 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 42 43 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Mr Hall, we were at page 87 and can 44 I just ask you further about this more recent incident of 45 the two suicidal workers? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. You say that two field officers went out? 2 A. Mr Jennings to my belief did and another field 3 officer, but I don't know exactly because I don't want to 4 get into the - I don't involve myself for privacy reasons. 5 6 Q. Sure. Do you know the names of the field officers? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. What are their names? 10 A. Richard Garrity and Duncan Bennett-Burleigh. 11 12 Q. Do they have training in welfare? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. They're also trainers, though, aren't they? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Do you know the proportion of their time given over to 19 training versus their more welfare role? 20 A. No, I wouldn't be able to give that. 21 22 Q. Who would be able to assist us? 23 A. Mr Jennings. 24 25 Q. You say that Mr Jennings and one other went out. Do 26 you know which of the two went out? 27 A. No. 28 29 Q. It is the case, isn't it, that the arrangements 30 changed in relation to the provision of welfare services 31 from CCW over the last few years? 32 A. I'm not sure what you're asking me, sorry. 33 34 Q. Wasn't it the case that there was a specific part of 35 the budget devoted to the payment of a counsellor and that 36 that changed? 37 A. Are you referring to the payment involving me? No? 38 39 Q. No. 40 A. No? It's not a payment to me, actually, it's a 41 reimbursement to the Union of fees. 42 43 Q. Was there ever a dedicated counselling service that 44 people were referred to by CCW? 45 A. Oh, it's changed, yes, to OzHelp. 46 47 Q. Tell the Commission about the change?


1 A. In what context? I'm not - sorry, I'm not trying to 2 be evasive, I'm just not sure. 3 4 Q. Is it the case that at a certain point there was no 5 longer a need to employ a social work health professional 6 and rather, that all welfare cases were referred to OzHelp 7 for assistance? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. How, therefore, do the field officers fit into that 11 scenario? 12 A. Well, you still have to have a - with social work, 13 interaction with people, OzHelp is a location, it's in a 14 location in a suburb, you go to an office. When it happens 15 and the person is suicidal or under the effects of drugs or 16 alcohol, the idea is to give an immediate response, so the 17 field office go out and do a basic intake. They have an 18 intake form and they fill out basic intake questions which 19 allows them to make a decision on what is the best service 20 for them, because often you don't get the detail, someone 21 says, "I need help", so you go out and they do a basic 22 intake form and then they work out what is the best 23 services that can be provided for that person. 24 25 Q. It is fair to say, though, that all people in those 26 crisis situations are referred on to specialised 27 assistance; is that right? 28 A. Not always. 29 30 Q. Not always? 31 A. Not always. 32 33 Q. Mostly? 34 A. Mostly, yes. I believe - I'm not hands-on with it any 35 more. 36 37 Q. The field workers go out and do this initial 38 assessment, but people in need of assistance go to either 39 OzHelp or is it some other type of help? 40 A. Sometimes they do other things as well. Like, they 41 might take them, drive them to appointments, or take them 42 to see lawyers, if it's an issue that they need assistance 43 that way. They provide ongoing, more practical support, 44 because a lot of people are very - when they're in these 45 situations they're very - they're having difficulty 46 maintaining their normal life, so even basic things like 47 moving between appointments becomes very difficult for


1 them, so the field officers do a lot of that work, so they 2 support them. And also they have ongoing contact to make 3 sure that the referral is going well because we've had a 4 lot of examples where, you know, people aren't comfortable 5 with the counsellor they get or the service they're 6 providing, so they talk to them about is everything - if 7 they're happy with that and if they're not then we look at 8 other options, they look at other options to do that. 9 10 Q. Are you aware of what, if any, records are kept by the 11 field workers in relation to this part of their role? 12 A. I believe there would be intake forms. 13 14 Q. Is that all? 15 A. I'm not sure whether there would be other records, but 16 I don't usually get involved in it. It's of a confidential 17 nature, you're dealing with people's very private, 18 sensitive situations, so again, I don't involve myself in 19 that for confidentiality reasons. 20 21 Q. For example, there was a large fee being paid from a 22 charity to the CSI Trust? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. As it's called at least in these financial documents. 26 Is there some way that you're aware of that CSI keeps 27 proper records of the amount of work done on behalf of CCW 28 such that such a large fee is properly accounted for? 29 A. I'm just trying to work out - are you talking about 30 the fees? Just which figure are you talking about? The 31 large amount? What are you saying? 32 33 Q. $214,829. 34 A. It is important that it's just not for the field 35 officers, it is also for the administration. 36 37 Q. What type of administration is required for CCW? 38 A. There's the donation that comes from - you know, the 39 donations that come in and there's other work around just 40 the general accounts and administration for the - which 41 would go with any situation like that. 42 43 Q. That's not a large amount of work of a day, is it? 44 A. Look, I'm not exactly 100 per cent certain because I'm 45 not involved in the operation. I'm the Chair but I'm not 46 involved in the operation of the business. The best person 47 would be to talk to the people who were in the operation


1 roles. 2 3 Q. In terms of proper accountability of the expenses, if 4 I were to ask Mr Jennings, he would be able to assist me; 5 is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Just while we're on page 87, the $1.1 million in 2013, 9 that relates to both direct income earned by CETW CSI as 10 direct training provided by that organisation to people, 11 plus the gap payment as well that's provided in relation to 12 apprentices that's paid for by CCW; is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. And is that the sum total of that figure in terms of 16 program revenue? 17 A. Sorry? Program revenue? I'm not sure. 18 19 Q. There's money provided for the Government to assist in 20 paying for training courses? 21 A. No, there's a levy, a levy that's put on projects in 22 the Territory. 23 24 Q. Right. 25 A. Approaching 0.2 per cent of projects costs. 26 27 Q. In terms of payment to CSI -- 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. -- money comes, does it, direct from employers to pay 31 for their employees' training? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. To your knowledge? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. Does it also come from by way of rebate from the 38 training authority, the Government training authority? 39 A. That's paid for - that is a payment that is made by 40 the - how it works is it's actually not a payment to the 41 training company. You apply for training positions and 42 then that's approved by the training fund and then the 43 payment is actually from the worker to the training 44 company, so the subsidy the individual worker has or the 45 individual trainer, trainee is the person who has that 46 money. Now, it's made up that that money comes across, is 47 paid on their behalf by the training fund to the training


1 company. You see that? Yes? So the individual person has 2 the money. It actually never is directly paid the way that 3 you describe it; the subsidy comes to the worker. 4 5 Q. So a person who is wanting to get training, they pay 6 CSI and they get some of that money to pay CSI from the 7 government training authority, is that what you're saying? 8 A. Yes, and the training company applies on their behalf 9 but it's their money, yes. 10 11 Q. To -- 12 A. For training. 13 14 Q. For training, but it's subsequently passed on to the 15 training company? 16 A. Yes, and that's common, there's probably more than a 17 dozen training companies operating in the construction 18 industry in the ACT that use this scheme. 19 20 Q. In terms of apprentices there's a slightly different 21 arrangement, isn't there? 22 A. Correct. 23 24 Q. And CCW has an involvement in paying what's not 25 covered by the Government training authority; that's right, 26 isn't it? 27 A. Not all apprentices but apprentices that come through 28 for specific courses in the Canberra Institute of 29 Technology which is equivalent of a TAFE. 30 31 MS McNAUGHTON: Can I make a further diagram available to 32 you. Commissioner, could they be marked? There are two 33 flow of payment documents, one for 2013 and one for 2014 34 35 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The 2013 flow of payments 36 document will be referred to as CSI MFI-5 and the 37 equivalent document for 2014 will be CSI MFI-6. 38 39 CSI MFI-5 2013 FLOW OF PAYMENTS DOCUMENT 40 41 CSI MFI-6 2014 FLOW OF PAYMENTS DOCUMENT 42 43 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Do you see there, relevantly looking 44 at the training bit of it at this stage -- 45 A. Sorry, which one? 46 47 Q. We're looking at the 2013 one.


1 A. Sorry, yes. 2 3 Q. That's CSI MFI-5. We've got payments for training, so 4 the box at the top of the middle, "Employers with CFMEU 5 enterprise bargaining agreements". Do you understand that 6 payments for training are paid by the employers to CSI? 7 A. Sorry, I've lost you there, sorry. 8 9 Q. Do you understand that payments for training are paid 10 by employers to CSI, that is, those employers who have 11 enterprise bargaining agreements negotiated -- 12 A. And others as well. 13 14 Q. Yes, but first of all -- 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Yes? Those that have EBAs negotiated with the CFMEU? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. And also others? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Do you see on the diagram we have "Other CSI Clients" 24 as well in the box towards the left? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. A whole lot of money is paid for training going to 28 CSI. Do you see that? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. There's also training rebates that are also paid? 32 A. Yes. Not the right line. It should really - the 33 training fund gives the money to the individual worker and 34 then the worker gives it; it's not that flow. 35 36 Q. But it still ends up with -- 37 A. Yes, but it's an important point. 38 39 Q. We can maybe -- 40 A. Also, just another point there, just on the client 41 base of EBAed companies is approximately 6 per cent. 42 94 per cent are non-EBAed companies or individuals that 43 don't have agreements, are not covered, so it's only 44 6 per cent; a very important point, only 6 per cent of that 45 money, or approximately, comes from the EBAs; 94 per cent 46 comes from the other client base. 47


1 Q. What do you base your figures on, sir? 2 A. Accountant. 3 4 Q. You had a recent discussion in relation to this issue 5 with the accountant? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Are you talking about 2013 or is that every year? 9 A. In general. 10 11 Q. In general? 12 A. In general. 13 14 Q. We might come back to that in due course. You can put 15 those to one side for the moment. 16 A. You don't want these ones any more? No? 17 18 Q. Just keep it there. 19 A. Oh, okay. 20 21 Q. Just returning to page 87, we've already seen under 22 "Income", just to make clear what the income of CSI is, 23 we've got the "Program revenue" -- 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. -- which we've already just seen what that's from. Do 27 you say 6 per cent only relates to EBA training? 28 A. Of the income? Approximately. 29 30 Q. And 94 per cent you say relates to non-EBA? 31 A. When you go across the client base, yes. 32 33 Q. And -- 34 A. Captured by the clause here in the agreement, yes. 35 36 Q. And your accountant being Mr Brennan? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. "Management Income", is that entirely just from CCW, 40 to your knowledge? 41 A. I believe. 42 43 Q. And "Other Income", what do you understand that's made 44 up of? 45 A. Predominantly a fundraising breakfast. 46 47 Q. A fundraising breakfast run by whom?


1 A. CCW. 2 3 Q. So CCW donates that directly to CSI, does it? 4 A. Oh, no, sorry, sorry, I got confused. I'm not sure 5 what that other - that's different. I'm talking about CCW. 6 Sorry, I'm getting confused. I apologise, I withdraw that. 7 No, sorry, no, I'm talking - the "Other Income", I'm not 8 sure. 9 10 Q. At least part of it comes, if we just return now to 11 that chart we've recently handed to you -- 12 A. Yes - which one, the 2013? 13 14 Q. Yes. The 2013 one, comes from promoter's fees 15 associated with the JLT (CSI) Discretionary Trust, 16 doesn't it? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. We're going to come to that in a moment, but you would 20 agree that a large proportion of that "Other Income" comes 21 from that money? 22 A. I'm not sure, but it sounds viable, yes. 23 24 Q. Do you know anything much about what CSI, or CETW as 25 Trustee for CSI, does to earn the promoter's fee? 26 A. Yes, in general terms, yes. 27 28 Q. Yes. And what's that? 29 A. Because the way that CSI Trust or Construction 30 Employment Training & Welfare is set up is it's a 31 Registered Training Organisation, so it has a compliance, a 32 very high compliance and paper - well, an administration 33 component to it because you must keep good records of your 34 training and you must keep compliance in line with your 35 registration as an RTO. The reason why CSI is doing the 36 job of promoting the fund and receiving those funds is it 37 ensures that the actual - it works on the compliance of - 38 signing up and compliance and the interaction between 39 themselves and JLT. 40 41 Q. You understand that earns $90,000, or so, for CSI, 42 that activity? 43 A. Yes, and my understanding is that doesn't really cover 44 the cost of what it does to actually administer it. It's 45 very burdensome and hard to administer because there are 46 some very good employers in the construction industry, but 47 there are some ones that don't either, for whatever reason,


1 be it - are not capable of running their books or business 2 properly, or for whatever reason they choose not to comply 3 with their agreements, and there's a lot of work trying to 4 make sure that we get - so we make sure people are actually 5 covered for it. 6 7 Q. In relation to that work that you've just outlined, 8 who does that? 9 A. In the office? 10 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. I'm not sure. 13 14 Q. How do you know that it's so labour intensive? 15 A. Because I know it's a - actually, I know it's a number 16 of people doing it and it's all different tasks, so it's 17 not one person. 18 19 Q. How do you know? 20 A. Well, because I - actually, I do remember who it is, 21 it's Jess Dean does the majority of the work and some other 22 administration people in the office. 23 24 Q. How do you know that? 25 A. Because I've talked to them when I've gone in for 26 Board meetings and I've talked to her and discussed it and 27 also Mr Jennings on numerous occasions has told me that it 28 is very burdensome. 29 30 Q. Why did you say "I'm not sure" when I first asked you? 31 A. Well, because I didn't - my memory came. 32 33 Q. Does anyone else do the work? 34 A. I'm not sure. You can ask - Mr Jennings would be the 35 best person to ask. Again, I'm the Chair, I'm not involved 36 in the operation of the company on a day-to-day basis. 37 38 Q. You need to know, surely, if something is burdensome -- 39 A. I know it's burdensome, yes. 40 41 Q. -- and unfinancial? 42 A. Yes, I know those things, yes. 43 44 Q. Could you now turn to the next year. That is behind 45 tab 8 for the year ending 2014. We're still on, just to be 46 sure, what's called the CSI Trust. 47 A. Sorry, what tab, please?


1 2 Q. The next tab, tab 8, and page 100. 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. We've got familiar figures there, but this time we've 6 got the 2013 and we now have 2014. Course revenue is 7 $1.5 million in this year. Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. "Management income", is that still only from CCW? 11 A. I believe, yes. 12 13 Q. That $216,000-odd. We've got our "Other Income" as 14 $125,000, or close to $126,000? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. We've got a chart for that year that has been provided 18 to you, but I won't take you to that at the moment. Could 19 you just go down, still on page 100, though, Less: 20 Distributions to Beneficiaries". Do you see that? 21 A. Sorry. 22 23 Q. On page 100? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. That's $790,840? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. That goes to the CFMEU ACT; that's right, isn't it? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Indeed, just for completeness, the previous year was 33 $370,691 - that's on page 87 and it's also on this page - 34 so it has gone up quite a lot, the money available for 35 distribution? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. Do you know how that came about? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. How is that? 42 A. The mandatory introduction of Asbestos Card in the 43 Territory. 44 45 Q. Why did that make such a difference? 46 A. Because the mandatory nature that everybody in the 47 construction industry in the Territory or entering the


1 Territory had to undertake the course. 2 3 Q. You were not the only organisation offering that 4 course, though, were you? 5 A. No, there was a number: the Master Builders' 6 Association, the Housing Industry Association and a number 7 of private providers. 8 9 Q. You say that that entirely accounts for the increase 10 of over $400,000? 11 A. I couldn't be certain about that, but it's, like, 12 15,000 people had to be trained in a very short period of 13 time. We didn't train all of them and from a business 14 perspective, my fiduciary duties, I would have liked to 15 train all of them because it would have been even more 16 distribution to the Union which we could use for the 17 benefit of the members, but we got a percentage of the 18 market. 19 20 Q. When you say "distribution to the Union ... for the 21 benefit of the members" as one phrase -- 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. -- how is it that you can say that if it goes into 25 general revenue, because your organisation, for example, 26 provides donations to political parties, does it not? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. At least to the Australian Labor Party? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. And also sometimes, is it, your organisation to the 33 Greens? 34 A. On occasions we have, yes. 35 36 Q. That money has gone into the general revenue account? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. And it's paid any which way, isn't it, according to the 40 Committee of Management, so it could be as donations, 41 for example? 42 A. To where? 43 44 Q. To wherever but, for example, to political parties? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. You say that's definitely for the benefit of the


1 members? 2 A. I think my personal view is that workers get a better 3 deal under a Labor Government and often conservative 4 governments have aggressive agendas against unions and 5 union members and that drives down their wages and 6 conditions, including safety. 7 8 Q. Does your organisation make any other donations? 9 A. On occasions. 10 11 Q. To what types of organisations? 12 A. To members if they're in hardship, like, if a child - 13 like, for example, if you're running a - someone's running 14 a fundraiser for one of the member's kids that's got 15 cancer, we'll donate. 16 17 Q. In terms of the expenditure of money in the general 18 revenue account, do you say that it's always for the 19 benefit of the members? 20 A. It's always - the way I see it is I only operate in 21 the interests of the members, the families, their families 22 and the communities that they live in. 23 24 Q. Some of the money flowing to the CFMEU, as we've just 25 seen from the trust distribution, comes from training that 26 has been provided under the EBA? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. That has to be through CSI and is for non-Union 30 members; is that right? 31 A. I wouldn't know who - I wouldn't know who is a Union 32 member and not a Union member. 33 34 Q. Is it the case that every single person in the industry 35 that has an EBA that has been negotiated by your Union is a 36 Union member? 37 A. I would not know, but I would believe that that 38 would - no. 39 40 Q. Is it fair to say that some non-Union members receive 41 training -- 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. -- paid for by their employer when the money goes to 45 CSI? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. Is it the case that those people, also, the money paid 2 on behalf of those people is in part subsidising, 3 eventually, members of the Union? 4 A. In what context? 5 6 Q. We've seen how the money flows from CSI through to the 7 CFMEU? 8 A. For example, to give you a bit of context around it, 9 if there's a workplace accident, for example, and someone's 10 killed, which unfortunately happens a fair bit in Canberra, 11 or seriously injured, Construction Charitable Works goes 12 out and provides the debrief and we don't stand there and 13 say, "You're a boss, you're not in the Union", "You're not 14 a Union member, we only counsel our members." I guess what 15 we do do is we care about what's going on in that 16 particular situation and we counsel everybody. To say that 17 the benefits flow to non-Union members, on occasions that 18 does happen and that could be part of a strategy to recruit 19 people because you show the good work that the Union does 20 and it could be an opportunity in the area of training or 21 counselling you can show that we do and then sometimes you 22 get people join because of that. 23 24 It could be seen in some contexts that what we're 25 trying to do is show that a modern progressive union is 26 more than just about bargaining wages and conditions; it's 27 also about the social aspect of people's lives and their 28 families and their communities and we try to be a modern 29 Union in that way. 30 31 Q. I have already asked you and I think you said you 32 can't really assist me as to whether or not it is made 33 clear in the course of negotiations of enterprise 34 agreements -- 35 A. No, I can't. 36 37 Q. -- as to whether or not the financial relationship 38 between the CFMEU and CSI is made clear before people vote 39 as to whether or not they will agree to the EBA? 40 A. My understanding, when I talk to the officials, I make 41 it clear that we should - and my understanding is that the 42 EBA is gone through and each clause where employers ask 43 questions, they're to be answered in line with the 44 agreement. 45 46 Q. There's two things: there's one, disclosure to the 47 employers and there's also disclosure to the potential


1 beneficiaries of the EBA, the workers? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. That has to be voted on, does it not? 5 A. Yes, and you have to go through a process of giving 6 them the agreement and giving them a certain amount of time 7 to look at the agreement and ask any questions before that 8 can take place, so there's that initial, and then you wait 9 a period of time, I think it's 21 days as a minimum, and 10 then you have the vote, but I'm not sure about that timing 11 because I don't get involved in it and it changes all the 12 time with the rules and I haven't done the hands-on EBA 13 negotiations for a while. 14 15 Q. There's nothing about the name CSI, you've already 16 agreed, that would indicate that that's CFMEU - sorry, that 17 that is associated with the CFMEU such that the CFMEU gets 18 a large financial benefit out of its association? 19 A. Sorry, I lost the question. 20 21 Q. There's nothing about the name, CSI, which you 22 indicated was your idea -- 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. -- that indicates that there is a financial 26 relationship between CSI and CFMEU such that CFMEU benefits 27 from training conducted by CSI? 28 A. No, but it's clearly defined in the agreement. 29 30 Q. What's clearly defined in the agreement, that CSI 31 passes money to the CFMEU? 32 A. No, it's not. 33 34 Q. That's not at all, is it? 35 A. No, so there's nothing in the name, no, really, no. 36 37 Q. Could we now go to tab 9. We go to a document that's 38 called "Creative Safety Initiatives, Board Meeting, 39 October-December 2010". If we can go over to page 112 and 40 see that it's called the "Creative Safety Initiatives Board 41 Meeting (CSI)" and we see in attendance, Mr Brennan, 42 Mr Docker, Mr Driver, yourself, Mr Jennings, Mr O'Mara and 43 Mr Robinson. Do you see that? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. What board meeting is it, sir? 47 A. In 2010? I'm not sure what you're asking me, sorry.


1 2 Q. It is not at all clear, is it? 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr Hall, what Ms McNaughton is 5 laying out for your consideration is this: Creative Safety 6 Initiatives is the name of a trust -- 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. -- which is not really a legal person but it is run 10 by -- 11 A. Yes, okay. 12 13 Q. -- the trustee, and the question is: was it a meeting 14 of the directors of the trustee, or was it a meeting of 15 some interested people who might be advising the directors? 16 That is the sort of thing Ms McNaughton is concerned with. 17 A. It should be "Construction Employment Training 18 Welfare" is the heading, is that what you're saying? 19 20 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Well, is that right or should it at 21 this stage still be CSI Pty Ltd because it's -- 22 A. I'm not sure. 23 24 Q. It's not very clear, is it? 25 A. I'm not sure. 26 27 Q. In fact, you were there, so you didn't know in what 28 capacity you were attending that meeting? 29 A. In 2010? 30 31 Q. In November 2010. By then, CETW Limited had been set 32 up, as had the Trust Deed? 33 A. Okay. Well, that's good, yes. 34 35 Q. But if you notice who is there -- 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. -- the people there seem to be directors. Let's just 39 look at the list on the diagram, if we could, CSI MFI-1: 40 Mr Brennan -- 41 A. Yes. He was the company Secretary. 42 43 Q. Yes. He was also a director of CSI Pty Ltd - yes? 44 A. In 2010? 45 46 Q. Yes. We can go back to it if you need to, but do you 47 see there "Stephen Brennan", as of 18 January?


1 A. Okay, yes. 2 3 Q. Mr Docker also of CSI Pty Ltd, not of CETW Pty Ltd, as 4 at this date? 5 A. Sorry, yes, yes. 6 7 Q. Not until later. 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Mr Driver, he was not on CETW, he was on CSI Pty Ltd's 11 board. Yourself. You were, at that time, on the board of 12 CSI Pty Ltd as well as CETW. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Mr Jennings, he was on the board of CETW Pty Ltd but 16 not on the board of CSI Pty Ltd? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. But he was the CEO of what? CETW Pty Ltd as trustee 20 for CSI? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Jason O'Mara, he was on the board at that time of 24 CSI Pty Ltd. Do you see that? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. As well as on the board of CETW. And who was 28 Peter Robinson? 29 A. He was just an employee. 30 31 Q. It seems more likely to be a meeting of CSI Pty Ltd? 32 A. I'm not sure. 33 34 Q. Who would know? 35 A. I'll have a look at the minutes. I'll read them. 36 37 Q. The CFO made a report; who was that? 38 A. That would be Stephen Brennan. 39 40 Q. He gave a bit of a report including CITEA, CISC 41 consolidation and CISC wind-up. Do you see that? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. It doesn't say why. Do you recall whether or not the 45 reasons for it were discussed at this meeting? 46 A. The reasons for the wind-up? 47


1 Q. Yes. 2 A. Of those two companies? 3 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. It was ongoing. I can't specifically recall this 6 meeting, but there was an ongoing conversation around CITEA 7 and CISC, remembering CISC is just the company that just 8 employs the - not the apprentices but employs the workers 9 that work for the apprentice company CITEA. So really it 10 has to exist - it exists - you know, if CITEA goes, the 11 group training company, then that's not relevant anymore, 12 but the reason why CITEA was run up - was wound up was a 13 number of concerns as directors we had. 14 15 The first was because we had so many apprentices and 16 the industry was quite slow at the time, we were more and 17 more required to put them out into the housing sector and 18 our field officers were going out and reporting that 19 apprentices were in very dangerous situations because the 20 housing sector has very poor - in general, not every one, 21 but the housing sector has very poor safety standards, and 22 we found a lot of apprentices - our field officers found 23 them in dangerous situations, like on roofs without fall 24 protection, and we couldn't continue. We believed that was 25 our number one concern, to continue just for the fact that 26 we needed to place the young apprentices, that we could 27 take the risk that we couldn't control the safety and 28 someone might be seriously injured or killed. 29 30 Another cause was - at the time there was a prevalence 31 of what we called "sham contracting" in the construction 32 industry, and sham contracting is when people are paid all 33 in rates instead of their - you know, in lieu of things 34 like superannuation, long service leave, RDOs, et cetera. 35 That was prevalent in the construction industry, and what 36 was happening to our apprentices is that they'd go out - 37 and there's no licence required for a carpenter in the 38 Territory. So, what happens is when they went out and 39 worked for a lot of these housing industry people, they'd 40 say to them, even though they hadn't completed their time, 41 they'd say, "You guys have got enough skill now, come and 42 work for me for 25 bucks ABN", and the apprentices would 43 leave their apprenticeship and go and work for ABN for the 44 workers. 45 46 Another thing that we were looking at at the time was 47 the fact that those two things mainly combined together,


1 the danger - number one, the danger of the risk of safety 2 and someone generally getting killed or seriously injured 3 was very, very - playing very heavily on our minds and it 4 became totally unviable because we were actually paying 5 higher than what the requirement was. Because of the 6 nature and the association with the Union, we made sure 7 that the kids got things like personal protective 8 equipment, like jackets, and we issued them regularly and 9 extra clothing, like shirts, that would be beyond what the 10 minimum requirement was to make sure that - because it is 11 quite cold in Canberra in winter, so we gave them extra 12 equipment, but what we -- 13 14 Q. "We", are you talking about -- 15 A. CITEA. What we were finding is that our two major 16 competitors, which was the Master Builders Association and 17 the Housing Industry Association, who run out group 18 training schemes, while you can't keep the kids always, or 19 the apprentices always in a job, there's downtime, so what 20 happens is you place them with employers and they might 21 only place for one day, or they might place for longer 22 terms, but what we were finding is because there was a 23 downturn, we were getting a lot of kids coming back to do 24 training but we didn't get any money for the placement of 25 them when they were working for an employer. 26 27 What our competitors did is they then forced them to 28 take leave, or stood them down without pay, and because 29 again of our association, we wouldn't do that to the kids 30 because they were already vulnerable because they were on 31 very low wages as apprentices, so we would actually bring 32 them in and pay them when they weren't - CITEA. 33 34 Q. But why, therefore, did you need to change the 35 structure of CITEA because of those issues? 36 A. We were winding up. We closed the company. 37 38 Q. So you didn't look after apprentices anymore? 39 A. No. 40 41 Q. Right. 42 A. But there's more reasons why we wound it up. 43 44 Q. Yes. 45 A. And that one was a big one. The situation was that we 46 couldn't be - we didn't want to be in a situation where we 47 were putting very - already very vulnerable people, which


1 are apprentices, in a situation where they weren't getting 2 an income and possibly not being able to pay for 3 accommodation or food. We actually instigated a program 4 for a while where we were feeding some of them because they 5 were that vulnerable and actually providing meals. 6 7 Q. What year are we talking about? 8 A. Around 2010, 2009. 9 10 Q. So, your solution to all those problems involving 11 young apprentices was to cease providing services? 12 A. No, what we did is we - no. What we did is we changed 13 our focus to CCW where we provide support services for all 14 apprentices in the construction industry, and that's why we 15 do the training in the TAFE. Because the training we do in 16 the TAFE, or the CIT, goes around things like Suicide 17 Prevention training because there's a very high rate of 18 apprentices that commit suicide and there is -- 19 20 Q. Sorry, can I just stop you there. Just in terms of 21 understanding why the structure changed, you no longer took 22 on the role of employing -- 23 A. Of a group trainer. 24 25 Q. Of a group trainer of apprentices and you left that to 26 your competitors, essentially? 27 A. Yes, either competitors or - a big employer is still 28 the man or woman who engages an apprentice directly. Like, 29 the kid down the road, or a relative of a friend, they're 30 still predominantly the largest pool of apprentice 31 employers, but there are group training schemes as well. 32 33 Q. Right. So you just stepped out of that particular 34 space and concentrated on other stuff? 35 A. We channelled - that's one of the big driving forces 36 between - behind Construction Charitable Works is we 37 started, you know, providing crisis accommodation for 38 apprentices, for example. 39 40 Q. There wasn't a big uptake in that at all, was there? 41 A. Oh, no. Well, there is on occasions but not a huge 42 uptake, no. 43 44 Q. In some years, I think, there was no-one who took it 45 up and in some years just perhaps one or maybe two; is that 46 right? 47 A. I'm not sure what the figures were, but it's probably


1 a reflection that we're not out there spending enough time 2 marketing the product. We need to put some more resources 3 into that. 4 5 Q. Could we just go now to page 115, and there is what is 6 called a CEO Board Report. Do you see that? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. It says: 10 11 This report is written as accountability to 12 the highest priority goals for Construction 13 Industry Training and Employment 14 Association (CITEA), Creative Safety 15 Initiatives (CSI) & Construction Charitable 16 Works (CCW) as outlined in the Strategic 17 Plan (May 2009 to December 2011). 18 19 Does that indicate that all those organisations are all 20 involved with each other? 21 A. In what context, sorry? 22 23 Q. It appears to be that the CEO who we have agreed, 24 I think, is Mr Jennings, it's not entirely clear, but it 25 says "accountability to the highest priority goals" of 26 three different organisations: CITEA, CSI and CCW and it 27 mentions the Strategic Plan. 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Do we take it from that that those organisations 31 mentioned there are all related to each other? 32 A. Related in - I'm not trying to be a smart-alec, but 33 related in what context? Like, financially or they work 34 together to achieve the goals? 35 36 Q. What does that phrase mean? 37 A. They work together to achieve similar goals to benefit 38 members in the construction industry. They probably -- 39 40 Q. Work together as separate entities? 41 A. Well, they work in the industry. Yeah - no - yeah, 42 I'm not sure. 43 44 Q. Earlier when you were giving answers in relation to 45 the chart, you indicated that all of the organisations on 46 this chart -- 47 A. Definitely not CITEA. CITEA was - to give you an idea


1 how that's set up, that had employees and employers on it 2 and it was an association, and CITEA, even though the Union 3 had representatives on it, it was a separate organisation. 4 5 Q. Right. So part of you stopping those organisations 6 was getting rid of the employer component on the board; is 7 that right? 8 A. No. We wound up the companies. We wound it up. 9 10 Q. I think they were associations? 11 A. It is an association, yes. CITEA is an association. 12 No, it was to do with the safety and the sham contracting, 13 and the fact that we couldn't compete with people in the 14 market. 15 16 Q. Do you know why these three organisations are all 17 grouped together in this introductory part under the 18 heading "CEO Board Report"? 19 A. I have no idea. 20 21 Q. Could the witness please be handed volume 6. 22 A. Do you want this one? 23 24 Q. Just keep that nearby, though. 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Before I ask you to open that, do you know anything 28 about any strategic plans? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. What do you know about a Strategic Plan? 32 A. A matter of days ago, I got a copy of it. 33 34 Q. You would have seen this CEO Board Report -- 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. -- a long time ago. This is the CSI Board Meeting 38 October to December 2010. 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. You would have seen the Strategic Plan back then, 42 wouldn't you? 43 A. No. 44 45 Q. Or seen something about it? 46 A. No. Look, what that is, that is a clear oversight of 47 a reference to a document that we don't use.


1 2 Q. Is that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. Are you sure about that? 6 A. Yes. It's written in that way, but we don't use that 7 document to - as a strategic overview of the organisation. 8 9 Q. Well, what do you know about the Strategic Plan? 10 A. I got it a couple of days ago. I know it was a matter 11 that was issued by a Notice to Produce, so I got it and had 12 a read and there's a clear - there's an issue, it was an 13 oversight by myself and the CEO, that we're referencing a 14 document that we don't use. 15 16 Q. Well, how did it come into being? 17 A. I wasn't an author of it and I had no knowledge of it 18 up until when it was given - till I asked for it a couple 19 of - oh, four days ago, five days ago. 20 21 Q. All right. Can you please turn to volume 6, tab 77. 22 There are two sub-tabs behind tab 77 of A and B, you will 23 notice. 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. Sub-tab A appears to be a Draft Strategic Plan. Do 27 you see that? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. The one behind tab B doesn't have the word "Draft" 31 across it? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. So it would appear to be, although it is not entirely 35 clear, that that would be a more final version of the 36 document. Do you see here that there is a Strategic Plan 37 for CITEA, CISC and CSI? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. So, someone didn't make it up, including in the 41 CEO Board Report? It looks like a real document was being 42 referred to; would you agree? 43 A. Like I said, I became aware of this document four days 44 ago. It is an oversight that we have it in - referred to 45 in the minutes of the board meetings. We don't refer to it 46 or use it. 47


1 Q. You'll see, as we go on, that this format is repeated. 2 A. Yes, I accept that. It's an oversight, but we don't 3 refer to it. I only saw the document - my recollection is 4 the first time that I saw it was a matter of days ago. 5 6 Q. So you have no recollection of how it came into being? 7 You or others didn't get in some sort of management 8 consultant? 9 A. I have no recollection of doing that, no. 10 11 Q. Can we just go to some of it. It might refresh your 12 recollection. Page 2018. 13 A. 2018. Sorry. 14 15 Q. That's behind tab B. 16 A. B, yep, okay. So not the draft one? 17 18 Q. It's not the draft one. You will see that it is not 19 entirely complete. 20 A. Okay. 21 22 Q. The second heading says: 23 24 Executive Summary 25 26 CITEA/CISC/CSI (the Group) Strategic 27 Business Plan (the Plan) ... 28 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. It continues: 32 33 ... provides a robust roadmap to support 34 the new direction for the long term 35 successful sustainability of the Group. 36 37 Do you see that? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. You were on the Committee of Management or the board 41 of all of these organisations; that's right, isn't it? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. And you are saying you have no knowledge of this 45 Executive Summary? 46 A. Up until four days ago, I had no recollection of it. 47


1 Q. You don't know what "(the Group)" is meant to refer 2 to? 3 A. No. 4 5 Q. And it says: 6 7 Critical success factors include: 8 9 And the first dot point is: 10 11 - financial stability and growth 12 13 A. Sounds reasonable, but -- 14 15 Q. It sounds reasonable? 16 A. In any company or any organisation, you want financial 17 stability and growth. 18 19 Q. Although CSI or, more properly, CCW as trustee for CSI 20 is set up, is it not, in part to provide money to the 21 CFMEU? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And the CFMEU is really there for, you say, the 25 benefit of members? 26 A. Their families and the communities they live in. 27 28 Q. Wouldn't a critical success factor be more relating to 29 the needs of workers? 30 A. Sorry? 31 32 Q. The first critical success factor included is 33 "financial stability and growth", but the organisations 34 concerned here are not about making money, are they, 35 they're about looking after workers? 36 A. I only saw this document four days ago. 37 38 Q. Right. 39 A. You're asking me about a document I didn't have any - 40 I believe I had nothing to do with. 41 42 Q. And you reckon you have never seen it before? 43 A. Four days ago, or four or five days ago. 44 45 Q. Before four or five days ago? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. Did you go back through your records to see if you 2 could find any record of any reference to it? 3 A. No, but I will if you want me to. 4 5 Q. If one goes over to page 2019: 6 7 Profit and Cash Projections 8 9 A Group target of $200K profit by end of 10 2011. 11 12 Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. And just above that it says under "The Market 16 Strategy": 17 18 (insert - currently under development with 19 Gai Brodtman) 20 21 Who is that? 22 A. She's the member for Canberra at the moment, I think. 23 24 Q. Right. But back then? 25 A. I believe, to the best of my recollection, she had a 26 consultancy business. 27 28 Q. Do you recall whether or not her consultancy business 29 had anything to do with assisting any of these 30 organisations back at this time? 31 A. I can't - I don't believe so, but - I don't believe 32 so. 33 34 Q. On page 2020 it says: 35 36 Section One - Strategic Focus. 37 38 Vision Statement 39 40 The plan is designed to provide the 41 foundation map upon which the Group will 42 grow. The Group must make some bold 43 decisions now which need to be implemented 44 over the next three years in order to 45 diversify and grow. We can no longer rely 46 on the Tradies Clubs and BCITFA dollar ... 47


1 That's the training fund, I think: 2 3 ... in the same sense as to what has 4 occurred in the past. Instead, the Group 5 must diversify into new business 6 opportunities. 7 8 Do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. And underneath in bold it says: 12 13 As part of the CFMEU's mission to provide 14 members and their families with a way for a 15 better working life, the Group's vision is 16 to provide every individual the opportunity 17 to receive the best possible personal and 18 professional development and support as is 19 necessary to match their future employment 20 prospects and career paths aspirations. 21 22 The Vision Statement will be communicated 23 to all staff and displayed in our 24 organisation. 25 26 Sir, that really suggests that some people who are involved 27 with these organisations had input into this document, 28 would you agree? 29 A. Possibly. It wasn't me. 30 31 Q. If it wasn't you, who do you believe had the knowledge 32 and expertise to have -- 33 A. I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know. 34 35 Q. -- or would have been capable, at least, of providing 36 input into the document. 37 A. Could be - I wouldn't know. 38 39 Q. And then page 2021: 40 41 Organisational Values 42 43 The principles and drivers that inform the 44 way we work are to: 45 46 - support the CFMEU and its operatives; 47


1 And it goes on. Do you see that? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. So it really looks like people in the CFMEU would have 5 had input into this? Would you agree it looks like that? 6 A. I wouldn't know. 7 8 Q. Well, you can agree with me whether it looks like it, 9 or do you think someone completely outside the CFMEU, or 10 any of these three organisations, went about wanting to do 11 this document just for their health? 12 A. I didn't have anything - you're asking me about a 13 document that I only knew about, I believe, four days ago 14 and you're asking me to comment on it. If you want me to 15 speculate on things, I'll speculate. 16 17 Q. Sir, you have agreed that it's in the minutes - I beg 18 your pardon, referred to in the minutes and, indeed, it is 19 referred to -- 20 A. I said it was an oversight. 21 22 Q. -- in many minutes. Are you saying you never saw it 23 at the time? 24 A. I didn't - because I didn't know about this document, 25 I didn't know the relevance of how it linked together. And 26 now I see it, it is an oversight by myself and the CEO, and 27 we're going to rectify it. 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Could I just pause for a moment? 30 On page 113, if you've got that still there, going 31 backwards, volume 1 -- 32 A. Sorry? 33 34 Q. -- that's your signature, is it, on page 113? 35 A. 113? 36 37 Q. Yes. 38 A. Sorry, which one? 39 40 Q. It is in volume 1. 41 A. Sorry, I don't know which one is volume 1. Was that 42 the first one you gave me? 43 44 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 45 46 THE WITNESS: 113? 47


1 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Yes. 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. That's your signature. So you were the Chair of the 5 board meeting held on 31 January 2011 presumably -- 6 A. 2011 is that one. 7 8 Q. -- which would have approved the minutes of the 9 earlier meeting? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. One question, I suppose, is whether the document on 13 page 115, which is "CEO Board Report" -- 14 A. 115, sorry - yes. 15 16 Q. -- is something that was before the meeting of 17 November 2010? 18 A. I'm not sure. 19 20 Q. Do you know? 21 A. No. 22 23 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Well, at page 112, if I could 24 continue -- 25 A. The same one, on this one? 26 27 Q. Just where the Commissioner has asked you, or near 28 where the Commissioner has asked you to look at volume 1 -- 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. -- page 112, under the heading "CEO's Report", it 32 says: 33 34 Jason Jennings presented a written report 35 and discussed: 36 37 So it would appear that he did present a written report? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. And that that was before the board? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. And that was subject to the minutes being approved? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. It was either this report, or a version similar to it, 47 because it could be that this report was presented at the


1 following meeting, but, in any event, you were aware, 2 weren't you, that Mr Jennings was in the habit of providing 3 written reports to present to the board meeting; is that 4 right? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. In a format very similar to this? 8 A. Like I said, the format that he presents it in, 9 obviously refers and comes from this document, the 10 Strategic Plan document. But I - it was an oversight. 11 I didn't know - I didn't have any knowledge of where those 12 headings came from or why we were using them. I just 13 thought it was a board reporting format, and I had no 14 knowledge or understanding of this Strategic Plan before a 15 few days ago. 16 17 Q. Just go over, while we're in volume 1, to page 132, 18 behind tab 10. 19 A. Sorry, 132? Yes. 20 21 Q. Do you see there that the introductory bit, in bold 22 there, is actually slightly different to what we saw at 23 page 115? We've noticed that page 115 refers to CITEA, CSI 24 and CCW, whereas at page 132 it's actually changed: 25 26 This report is written as accountability to 27 the highest priority goals of the Creative 28 Safety Initiatives (CSI) & Construction 29 Charitable Works (CCW) as outlined in the 30 Strategic Plan (May 2009 to December 2011). 31 32 So, it looks like someone has reviewed that paragraph and 33 has amended it to bring it in line with what would appear 34 to be the more operative organisational structure, would 35 you agree? 36 A. Yes, and, like I said, it's an oversight, referring to 37 a document that I'd never seen up until a few days ago, and 38 we are now in the process of fixing it. 39 40 Q. How can you fix -- 41 42 THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just ask about -- 43 44 THE WITNESS: Remove the reference to it. Remove the 45 reference to it. 46 47 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. I can understand you might not


1 have seen it until four days ago, but when you say it is an 2 oversight, do you mean to say that the document was never 3 before the meeting back in -- 4 A. No, no, no, the minutes, yes, it was there. I'm 5 taking about, now that I look at it, referring it to this 6 Strategic Plan is the oversight. That we shouldn't have - 7 that there should be no reference to it because we're not 8 using the Strategic Plan. Sorry, that's what I meant by 9 that. 10 11 Q. You say Mr Jennings never presented any Strategic Plan 12 to the meeting? 13 A. No, there was strategic plans and usually done through 14 the budget, that's how we do our strategic plans in the 15 budget process, and you'll see that in the documents. So, 16 there was plans about strategically planning for the year, 17 of course we did that. That was the role of the board to 18 do that, and it was presented to us about future business 19 in the flow through for the year, but that's done through 20 the budget process. 21 22 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Right. So it wasn't done in a 23 separate form that has been produced at item six? 24 A. Not that I can - not this. I've never - I won't keep 25 on saying it, yeah. 26 27 Q. Just excuse me for a moment. I know you say you've 28 never seen it before four days ago, but could we look at 29 page 2027 and also 2028 in volume 6. 30 A. 2027, yes. 31 32 Q. Perhaps we should go to 2026 to start that section. 33 The bottom of page 2026 says: 34 35 Threats 36 37 Threats facing the Training Group arising 38 from the external environment are: 39 40 - government program funding cuts; 41 - tough competition ... 42 - changes to regulation ... 43 - economic downturn ... 44 - non-compliance with government 45 regulations; and. 46 - CFMEU connection is seen as a 47 negative by some.


1 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. That's what you indicated earlier? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. That was in relation to the training CITEA, CISC and 8 CSI. Sorry, that was in relation to CITEA and CISC. Then 9 there's a section starting just underneath that, towards 10 the top of 2027, relating to CSI, very similar terms with 11 "Threats" identified at page 2028, including: 12 13 - CFMEU connection is seen as a 14 negative by some. 15 16 That explains, doesn't it, why you at least, in part, 17 wanted to keep the CFMEU name out of all of these 18 organisations that were appearing in the EBA? 19 A. No. 20 21 Q. You can't tell that CSI is passing money through to 22 the CFMEU from the name "CSI"; that's right? 23 A. No. 24 25 Q. Likewise, with CCW, you can't tell that CCW is paying 26 several hundred thousand dollars worth of fees to CSI which 27 passes it through to the CFMEU from the name CCW; is that 28 right? 29 A. Is that the motivation? 30 31 Q. At least part of the motivation? 32 A. No. 33 34 Q. No? 35 A. No. 36 37 Q. So the fact that this is seen as a negative, the CFMEU 38 connection is seen as a negative by some, you say, has no 39 practical effect on the structure of how you go about 40 fundraising? 41 A. I'd say a lot of people choose not to use this because 42 of it. 43 44 Q. Because of what? 45 A. The association between - the close known association 46 throughout the whole industry that the charity does - is 47 heavily associated - CCW is heavily associated with the


1 Union because, you know, when there's an accident, like I 2 said, and people are killed or seriously injured, officials 3 turn up and we arrange for the fieldworkers to come down, 4 people know that, and some people, you know - it's quite 5 obvious, and people who know anything about the industry in 6 Canberra know that Creative Safety Initiative is the 7 training company for the Union. So there would be a 8 perception some people wouldn't use it, but I would get the 9 feeling that we've never had the charity services knocked 10 back when there's a serious issue, and we don't 11 discriminate in those situations. We provide it to 12 employers, we provide it to Union members, of course, and 13 we provide the services of the charity to non-union members 14 when these terrible situations happen on construction 15 sites. 16 17 Q. Could we go now to some more board minutes. 18 A. This is volume 1, is it? 19 20 Q. Yes, back to volume 1, tab 10. 21 A. Sorry, I'll just move it around, I think. Is it 10, 22 sorry? 23 24 Q. Tab 10, yes, please. 25 A. Page? 26 27 Q. Could we go to page 129, first of all. Again, it 28 says: "Creative Safety Initiatives Board Meeting (CSI)" 29 but it is again not clear exactly which entity is having 30 the board meeting. 31 A. Yes. The reality is that the Construction Employment 32 Training and Welfare is a Limited company. Its sole 33 purpose is to be the trustee - or two purposes: sole 34 purpose is to be the trustee for Creative Safety Initiative 35 Trust and provide strategic direction to that Trust. 36 37 Q. Yes. 38 A. So, in practical terms, when we sit down and have 39 meetings, the reality is we're talking about the business, 40 and the business is CSI, and I guess that's where the 41 confusion comes. 42 43 Q. It is quite important, isn't it, because of the duties 44 under the Corporations Act, and the like, to know precisely 45 what company or corporation is having the board meeting, 46 isn't it? 47 A. I do. I know.


1 2 Q. Well, you tell us which board meeting is meeting? 3 A. It's Construction Employment Training and Welfare and 4 it says "CSI". And, again, this is something that we've 5 identified through this process which has been - has some 6 benefits, of course, and we're going to rectify that. 7 8 Q. You say, do you, that the board meeting at page 129 is 9 CETW? 10 A. Well, it's dealing with the operational matters 11 involved in the CSI Trust. 12 13 Q. What is Mr Docker, Mr Driver doing there, and 14 Mr Scott? 15 A. Of course, like I said, the actual company is 16 Construction Employment Training Welfare, and they're 17 directors of it. It is misleading. I agree with you, it 18 is misleading. It should say Construction Employment 19 Training and Welfare. 20 21 Q. The company who is the trustee of the CSI Trust is 22 CETW Limited. It is not CSI Limited? 23 A. Yes, Construction Employment Training and Welfare, 24 yeah. 25 26 Q. Do you say there are two board meetings simultaneously 27 merged together or something? 28 A. No, because it's the trustee for CSI Trust. 29 30 Q. But just to be clear -- 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. -- you're on both companies, so that doesn't assist 34 us. 35 A. On both companies? Sorry? 36 37 Q. You're both on CETW Limited and CSI Pty Ltd? 38 A. Yes. CSI Pty Ltd doesn't exist in an operational form 39 anymore. CSI Trust exists. That's why it is a number. 40 41 Q. If that doesn't exist in an operational form, why is 42 Mr Brennan and Mr Docker and Mr Driver attending a meeting 43 of CETW? They were not on the board of CETW at that time. 44 A. Yes, and I think that is an oversight that we have 45 identified and we're going to fix it. 46 47 Q. That's a major governance issue, isn't it?


1 A. Well, we're getting advice and we're going to fix it. 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Could I just raise one thing, 4 Ms McNaughton? As to Mr Brennan -- 5 6 THE WITNESS: He's the company Secretary. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: -- he is not recorded as a director but 9 he was company Secretary so it is not unreasonable, is it, 10 for him to be there? 11 12 MS McNAUGHTON: No, that's right. 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: Is your point really that the 15 attendance should have said "Dean Hall, Jason O'Mara", 16 and then it should have said: "Also in attendance: 17 Jason Jennings as CEO and Stephen Brennan as company 18 Secretary" and then perhaps it might also have said 19 "Present by Invitation: Mr Scott, Mr Docker, Mr Driver". 20 21 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, except just to this extent. One sees 22 from the diagram that as at that time, between 2010 and 23 2014, the directors were - this is of CETW - Mr Hall, 24 Mr Jennings and Mr O'Mara, and Mr Brennan was the 25 Secretary. So Mr Jennings was there as a director. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: I see. He was a director. 28 29 MS McNAUGHTON: As at that time. 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: Even though his name doesn't appear 32 under the heading "Directors". 33 34 MS McNAUGHTON: It is under "Former Directors". Both 35 Mr Jennings and Mr O'Mara for that period. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: For that period. Right. I follow. 38 Yes. So it should have said: "Dean Hall, Jason O'Mara, 39 Jason Jennings", and then it should have said: "Also in 40 attendance: Stephen Brennan as Secretary. Present by 41 Invitation: Scott/Docker/Driver". 42 43 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 44 45 THE COMMISSIONER: And they might have been there because 46 they had some useful ideas about how Construction 47 Employment Training and Welfare Limited could operate


1 within what I will loosely call the group of companies, all 2 of which were dedicated to the welfare of the CFMEU's 3 members, their families and the community of which they 4 were part? 5 6 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 9 10 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Mr Hall, it would appear, though, 11 that Mr Docker and Mr Driver appeared to be core members of 12 the meeting because they were moving and seconding motions. 13 Do you see that? 14 A. Yes. We've engaged a law firm to do a review of all 15 this and come up with recommendations to fix it. That's in 16 trail at the moment. 17 18 Q. Can I just return to the Strategic Plan. You don't 19 have to turn to it, but if I can turn to the topic of it. 20 A. Mmm. 21 22 Q. You say that it was drawn to your attention, following 23 the issuing by the Commission of a Notice to Produce; is 24 that right? 25 A. No. It was when I was trying to prepare I thought - 26 I asked can I see - I originally saw the notices, of 27 course, but I gave them to other people to action. 28 29 Q. Yes. 30 A. And my logic was that the second or third notice would 31 be probably something you would be interested in, so 32 I wanted to read it. 33 34 Q. The second or third Notice to Produce? 35 A. Yes. You know, if you'd done a general inquiry and 36 then you've come back with more specific issues, so I said, 37 "Can I see the documents that were produced". 38 39 Q. Do you know where they were found? 40 A. I do not know. 41 42 Q. I'm informed that they were produced by CETW, so 43 that's a company that's currently on foot, currently 44 operational. So that was in the records, it would appear, 45 of that company? 46 A. Okay. 47


1 Q. That doesn't assist you as to whether or not -- 2 A. No. 3 4 Q. -- you had earlier access to it? 5 A. No. 6 7 Q. Do you know physically where it was located? 8 A. No. 9 10 Q. Can I just ask you now, please, to turn behind tab 10, 11 to page 133. 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. There's various topics there under the heading 15 "Diversification". Do you see that? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. What do you understand by the heading 19 "Diversification"? 20 A. Looking at different revenue. 21 22 Q. For CSI? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. In order that it can provide money to CFMEU? 26 A. Make more money, yes, and then in turn distribute it 27 to the Union. That's how it would happen, yes. 28 29 Q. Also, just on that page at the top, CSI has a new 30 office location, do you see that, Level 2 of 31 Dickson Tradies? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. They've been operating there since 30 June. Is that 35 what you were referring to before? 36 A. Yes. It was about, I think, an 18-month period where 37 they were located in the upstairs of the Canberra 38 Tradesmen's Union Club, and when CITEA was wound up, they 39 moved into the complex there to continue the training 40 there. 41 42 Q. Would you please turn to page 139. 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Do you see it says under "Changes to Organisation and 46 Premises": 47


1 CSI now employs four staff who have been 2 transferred from CITEA. 3 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. And it says: 7 8 All employee leave balances have been 9 brought across from CITEA. 10 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. And further: 14 15 CSI has also moved to the CTUC premises and 16 will be charged a monthly rental. 17 18 Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Is that your understanding, that the staff were 22 brought over from CITEA? 23 A. Some. Not all. 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time, Commissioner? 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The hearing will resume at 2pm. 28 29 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 30 31 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 32 33 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Mr Hall, could I invite you, please, 34 to return to volume 1. 35 A. Sorry. Yes. 36 37 Q. Tab 11. 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Do you see there that we have board meeting minutes, 41 again it is not clear who the entity is, for November 2011 42 and, in fact, the minutes - that's the agenda for November 43 2011. The agenda is for 21 December at page 141. 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Then we've got the minutes for the meeting of July 47 2011 behind it.


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Then we've got another CEO board report; do you see 4 that -- 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. -- at page 145? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Again, we've got that cover page at 145 that we've 11 seen before and this time, as we've seen before, the 12 companies have been updated to CSI and CCW? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. If you could then go over to 153, we've got part of 16 the Chief Finance Officers' report, Mr Brennan. That 17 starts on the previous page, but on page 153, we've got: 18 19 CSI Trading Trust/CSI Pty Ltd Wind Up. 20 21 Do you see that? 22 A. Sorry, where's that? 23 24 Q. It is on the screen, if you need it. It is on 25 page 153. 26 A. I've got it but I'm just trying to - inside that 27 whole -- 28 29 Q. Yes. Do you recall that report being given? 30 A. No. 31 32 Q. In the course of it, about 10 lines or so down, it 33 says: 34 35 We have reviewed the wind-up plan with the 36 auditor and he has verbally advised that he 37 does not see an issue with the wind-up plan 38 as outlined including the transfer of 39 assets and liability arrangement between 40 old and new. The only outstanding balances 41 in the company include the Cash at Bank, 42 Provision for Income Tax and Inter-entity 43 loan with CCW and CSI Trust which will be 44 reconciled and effectively eliminated upon 45 wind-up. 46 47 Do you know what that was about?


1 A. No. 2 3 Q. You don't know about any loan between CCW -- 4 A. I can't recall it, no. 5 6 Q. No? 7 A. No, sorry. 8 9 Q. And CSI? 10 A. No. 11 12 Q. Continuing on: 13 14 The surplus cash will be distributed to the 15 member being the Canberra Tradesmen's Club 16 Community Fund who will in turn hold a 17 meeting and determine that the surplus 18 funds received will be distributed to 19 CSI Trust. 20 21 Do you recall any of that? 22 A. No. 23 24 Q. That's all been determined in advance, it would seem, 25 what's going to happen on behalf of other entities, it 26 would appear; do you see that? 27 A. I can't - it's to see the accountant's report. 28 29 Q. Yes, but you happen, as it turns out, to be on the 30 board -- 31 A. Yes, I am. 32 33 Q. -- of the various entities. 34 A. I don't know if it says that. I don't know if it 35 predetermined things. 36 37 Q. It says who will in turn hold a meeting. 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. And that the surplus funds will be distributed to 41 CSI Trust? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Do you recall who determined that? Was that in 45 consultation with you? 46 A. I have - I can't - a recollection of it, I don't have 47 a recollection.


1 2 Q. On page 154 there is a 2012 Budget Analysis that is 3 presented by Mr Jason Jennings. Do you see "Other Income" 4 towards the bottom of the page: 5 6 Management fee CCW. $80,000. 7 Gap payment for apprentices training from 8 CCW. $90,000. 9 10 A. Mmm-hmm. 11 12 Q. Just on the gap payment, if CSI or CETW as trustee for 13 CSI was ultimately set up to benefit workers - that's fair 14 to say - and members of the Union? 15 A. Members of the Union, yes. 16 17 Q. Why did CSI not drop their price for apprentices, for 18 example, and why do they insist on CCW paying the gap 19 payment? 20 A. No, that was a decision by CCW. 21 22 Q. Right. Okay. 23 A. Apprentices are very vulnerable people in the 24 construction industry, and the courses that are run are 25 around things like suicide prevention, drug and alcohol 26 rehab, drug and alcohol awareness, asbestos guard, yes. 27 28 Q. CSI would be in a position, though, to determine that 29 those courses should be cheaper for apprentices such that 30 no gap payment needed to be made? 31 A. At one stage, earlier, we used to do a lot of these 32 things for free, before it was mandated. We'd been 33 conducting, for example, asbestos training in the CIT for 34 three years before it became mandated to the apprentices. 35 We also made decisions to do - to train kids, as a 36 community initiative, to train kids before they went out on 37 work experience. What we did is we offered free or heavily 38 subsidised general induction cards at schools. 39 40 Q. Well, why didn't you offer heavily subsidised courses 41 such that CCW did not need to fill in the gap of the fee 42 charged? 43 A. Because it still had to run as a business. We have a 44 fiduciary duty to make sure that it's profitable. 45 46 Q. You have to make sure that CSI operates at a profit? 47 A. Yes. You can't give everything away. We do do a lot


1 of good stuff but, you know, in the end, we've still got to 2 make sure that we pay the wages and employ people and make 3 sure it's all -- 4 5 Q. Pay the wages, but it is set up as a non-profit 6 company, that's right, isn't it? 7 A. I believe so. 8 9 Q. Why is it that you need to charge course fees such 10 that they are so expensive CCW has to make the gap payment 11 for apprentices? 12 A. No, it's the same cost that the courses are put out 13 normally. It's no different. 14 15 Q. That's within CSI's control, isn't it? They could 16 lower the price for apprentices, such that CCW does not 17 need to make the gap payment? 18 A. It could, yes. 19 20 Q. Why is it that it's set up in that way? You're on the 21 boards of both organisations, CETW and CCW? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Do you know why that decision has been made to keep it 25 at a commercial rate and CCW paying the gap? 26 A. Because it's a commercial entity. We've got to pay 27 staff and have running costs. But, still, it is a good 28 thing that we do within the TAFE system. 29 30 Q. It is the case, isn't it, that quite a lot of money is 31 paid by CCW to CSI, if I can call it that shorthand way, 32 for the gap payment each year? On CSI MFI-5 and MFI-6 33 we've got those payments set out there. We've got the 34 management fees on those structures from CCW through to CSI 35 -- 36 A. Sorry, I haven't got -- 37 38 Q. -- but we've also got -- 39 A. Sorry, where is that? 40 41 Q. It is on these charts. 42 A. Oh, those charts there. Okay. Yes, sorry. 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Just go back a bit. I think both 45 Mr Hall and I are sort of gasping along, not up with the 46 action. You were saying flows in the charts? 47


1 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. We've got CCW in that blue box on 2 the right. They pay CSI, amongst other things, two large 3 amounts of money. One is for management fees, which we've 4 talked about briefly, and the other is gap payments, 5 I think you agreed before? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. That is a large amount of money that a charity is 9 paying to CSI? 10 A. Literally, over that time, hundreds and hundreds of 11 apprentices would have been trained. 12 13 Q. In order to run - you can see there that the Woden and 14 the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Clubs, known as Tradies, are 15 making -- 16 A. They're two separate entities, but, yes, Tradies. 17 18 Q. -- large donations to CCW. It would appear that at 19 least a large portion of those donations goes to paying gap 20 payments through to CSI which goes through to, in turn, the 21 CFMEU? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Wouldn't another way of approaching things be for CSI 25 not to have to charge commercial rates to apprentices, such 26 that the charity, CCW, would not have to pick up that gap 27 payment and then the Woden and Canberra Tradesmen's Union 28 Clubs wouldn't have to make those large donations or, if 29 they did make them, that could be used towards other 30 benefits? 31 A. We just think it's a primary intervention, education, 32 so it's always been effective. Every World Health 33 Organisation says that a primary dollar in an intervention 34 - we see them as interventions in people's health, these 35 training courses, so the dollar that - you know, every 36 dollar that we can put upfront in educating and training 37 these young new entrants to the industry will not only save 38 them personally a lot of personal pain and in their future, 39 but also make them more productive members of the industry, 40 so -- 41 42 Q. I'm not doubting that those course should be offered, 43 sir. What I'm suggesting is if the financial arrangements 44 were different, that the Tradies clubs would not have to 45 make such large donations which would be used up on the gap 46 payments, rather, CSI could offer discounts to apprentices 47 and the money that is given to CCW could be used for other


1 things? 2 A. The Tradies clubs believe it's a good cause. 3 4 Q. They have to pay tax, don't they? 5 A. The Tradies clubs? 6 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Yes. Yes. 9 10 Q. By giving these large donations to CCW which is in 11 turn passed to CSI, a component of which goes to CFMEU, 12 that reduces the tax liability, you'd agree, of those two 13 clubs - yes? 14 A. No, it's different. It comes out of a requirement for 15 community contributions in the Territory. The Gaming and 16 Racing Act is written that a percentage of income of 17 licensed clubs, which they derive from gaming, must be 18 returned to the community. So, it's got nothing to do with 19 tax. It's a requirement, and this is a small percentage. 20 The club in itself almost gives double what it's required 21 to give, the clubs do. They're the most generous donating 22 entities of all the clubs in the Territory, and have been 23 for a lot of years. 24 25 Q. It also reduces their tax, at the same time as 26 providing a benefit to the Union, that's right, isn't it? 27 A. No, they're required to give a certain amount of money 28 to -- 29 30 Q. You say they give double? 31 A. They give more. They give more than what they're 32 required to. 33 34 Q. So it is not only explained by their requirements -- 35 A. No, anything above that they pay tax on. For example, 36 they donate money to the Union and that's not defined in 37 inside the Gaming and Racing Act. You're not allowed to 38 see - a political party or a union is not allowed to 39 receive the donation, so any money that they give to the 40 Union, for example, is taxed. 41 42 Q. So by funnelling it through this method, there is a 43 tax deduction; is that right? 44 A. I think what they're doing is fulfilling what they're 45 set up for, which is to look after people in the 46 construction industry. It is in line with their 47 objectives.


1 2 Q. You say it's got no tax implications -- 3 A. I wouldn't know. 4 5 Q. -- as far as you're aware? 6 A. I honestly wouldn't know. I'm not a tax lawyer or an 7 accountant. 8 9 Q. Could you kindly now turn to tab 12, page 163. 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. Do you see there under "Staffing" - and just to get 13 the date in our heads, it is in relation to late 2011 to 14 early 2012: 15 16 As a result of increased training CSI 17 sought the need to hire a second 18 administration assistant to assist with the 19 office work - Diane Vanderdong was 20 successful in the recruitment round and 21 commenced work on 14th March 2012. 22 John Dunmore will commence as a Trainer and 23 Welfare Officer to take over some training 24 so Dick & Duncan can focus on High Risk 25 Training. Duncan Bennett Burleigh has now 26 been given a full time position as Training 27 & Welfare Officer. 28 29 Do you see the very first part of that paragraph says, "As 30 a result of increased training"? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. The training is causing the need for a second 34 administration assistant? 35 A. It is a different type of training. 36 37 Q. Different to what? 38 A. Yes. There's short course training which is like the 39 Suicide Awareness training. What we're talking about here 40 is they're doing what's called high-risk licence training 41 which is things like dogging, scaffold. So they're tickets 42 that you're required to have under a licence to do the work 43 in the construction industry, and we were going into this 44 area at that time, I believe. That was another - that was 45 a different type of training, high-risk licensing. 46 47 Q. Are these longer courses that you were conducting?


1 A. Generally longer, yes. Like, you've got - the short 2 course, you usually complete in a day, they don't go much 3 longer than that, while these could go - they're competency 4 based, but sometimes depending on the individual, some 5 people do it quicker, they are more adept, or can 6 understand the content better, so they do it quicker. They 7 can pass the test components in both the practical and 8 theory tests, while other people might take a bit longer 9 because they have learning difficulties or they don't adapt 10 in different ways. 11 12 Q. As at this time, which I think we are dealing with 13 around about March 2012, Dick and Duncan are focusing on 14 high-risk training - yes? 15 A. Part of their job, I imagine. I'm not involved in the 16 operations. 17 18 Q. Who were the fieldworkers at this time? Were they 19 Dick and Duncan? 20 A. Dick and Duncan, and it looks like John Dunmore was 21 brought on at that time too. 22 23 Q. He is taking over some training, it says. 24 A. And welfare. He was actually a social worker as well. 25 He would probably - I don't know, but he was a trained 26 social worker. He actually passed away two years ago, but 27 he was - I know he had a qualification as a trained social 28 worker as well. 29 30 Q. Does that mean that if he was a trained social worker, 31 were there any other trained social workers directly 32 working for CSI? 33 A. Not at that time, not directly working for them. 34 35 Q. Did they need any supervision by a trained social 36 worker? 37 A. Well, that's what I used to do. And also there's 38 another member of the staff of the CFMEU that's a trained 39 social worker as well. 40 41 Q. Who is that? 42 A. Shayne Hall. 43 44 Q. Did you provide formal supervision? 45 A. It was more like what happens if you have critical 46 debriefs with people. You know when they go out and they 47 get into a confrontation - well, a difficult situation,


1 say, with someone who's had a breakup in their relationship 2 and they're very emotional and it's very confronting for 3 people, so they'd come back and I'd talk to them or give 4 them advice on what to do. Mainly through Jason Jennings, 5 he'd ring me and ask me, just advice. 6 7 Q. Did you provide supervision? 8 A. No. At that time we'd engaged - it was unofficial I'd 9 do that, but at that time we'd engaged OzHelp to do it, 10 I believe. 11 12 Q. To supervise your welfare people? 13 A. To give them assistance. Not to directly supervise, 14 in the sense of telling them what to do. Supervision in 15 the terms of counselling is to find a different way. 16 Supervision is like - they define - in the area of 17 counselling and psychology, supervision is defined as a 18 professional sort of debriefing. You know, if you have 19 issues, you get to talk to each other about it and work 20 through the situation, so you try not to take the stuff 21 home with you. 22 23 Q. Did the CFMEU ever charge CCW for supervision work? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. What did that involve? 27 A. That was originally when it first started, I did - 28 I did the supervision of - you know, what I just described 29 as supervision. 30 31 Q. What, debriefing? 32 A. Debriefing and giving assistance in tough situations 33 and often sometimes I'd actually go and do an intervention 34 with a client, myself, and also Shayne, we took in a social 35 worker from the Australian Catholic University and it was 36 the beginning of the -- 37 38 Q. That's Shayne Hall? 39 A. Yes, she's a social worker as well. We took in a 40 fourth year prac student, or final year prac student, and 41 in that time we developed the case management plan, the 42 intake, privacy policies, and all that, we were doing all 43 that for the initial startup of -- 44 45 Q. For CCW? 46 A. Yes. So, policies and procedures and just setting up 47 so we basically had something that was professional.


1 2 Q. It sounds like the CFMEU is providing some sort of 3 welfare -- 4 A. No, I was. 5 6 Q. -- role? 7 A. No. Dean Hall as a social worker was, but in saying 8 that too -- 9 10 Q. Dean Hall as a social worker? 11 A. Yes, but the reason why they were paying the money to 12 the Union is because it was taking both Shayne and my time 13 to do these activities, so it was a reimbursement of costs 14 to the Union for the time that we were using to help set 15 up - it was the beginning of it -- 16 17 Q. Did you help them on a time basis? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. How did it work out? 21 A. Yes, it was billed. Yes, it was billed. 22 23 Q. How was it worked out in terms of working out how much 24 to bill CCW? 25 A. I'm not sure. There's transactions, I believe. I've 26 seen transactions. I'm not sure how it was defined or -- 27 28 Q. Well, did you write down the time if you had to 29 provide any debriefing work? 30 A. No, it was more like as a retainer. 31 32 Q. A retainer? 33 A. Yes. So sometimes you might do a lot of work one 34 week; some weeks you might not do much, depending on what 35 was done. There was a lot of work done in the initial 36 setting up of the intake policies and procedures, it was 37 fairly intensive, but it wasn't billed like that, do you 38 know what I mean, it was like a monthly thing I think. I'm 39 not sure but that's what I think. 40 41 Q. You said "Dean Hall as a social worker", I think, or 42 words to that effect at one point. 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Do you have to do continuing education to be regarded 46 as a practising social worker? How does it work? 47 A. Yes. I actually think that being a Union official was


1 a social worker and to follow it in social work and how you 2 actually do it, there are many different means of being a 3 practicer. Sometimes what they do is you can be - and 4 there's all different terminology - but sometimes you can 5 be a person who provides one-on-one counselling services or 6 you can be someone who works in the community with a group 7 of people to improve their lives. You might work in an 8 Aboriginal Advisory Centre. What I believe is when I'm 9 working as a Union official, I'm working as a social worker 10 because I'm trying to better the lives of my members and 11 their families and where they live, so I see it as a 12 community action model. 13 14 Q. You're talking about in terms of when the CFMEU 15 charges for your time and that of the other -- 16 A. In that - that's a different - yes. 17 18 Q. You're talking about something different, aren't you? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. You're talking about something quite specific, aren't 22 you? 23 A. Sorry, I don't understand. 24 25 Q. You are talking about either debriefing or going out 26 to assist people in crisis, is that the point? 27 A. Yes. There are occasions where I do that. 28 29 Q. Do you regard yourself, because you have done a social 30 work degree, as a person who can provide or could have 31 provided back in, what, 2012 -- 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. -- those services? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. You don't have to do any ongoing education? 38 A. I don't believe so. I don't believe so, but I do do 39 other courses. You can see that I've done other courses. 40 I've done a Certificate IV in Workplace Trainer and 41 Assessor. I've done a Certificate IV in Occupational 42 Health and Safety Management, but, you know, I do believe 43 in continual education, but I don't think there's a 44 requirement to maintain, you know, my qualification to do 45 any ongoing, you know, regimented PD like lawyers do. 46 I know lawyers have to do that, but, no, I don't believe 47 so.


1 2 Q. At a certain point, you say that you started to use 3 OzHelp? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. But you also say, do you, that fieldworkers went out 7 and provided assistance on behalf of CCW? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Do you say that their work as fieldworkers for CCW 11 constituted a large amount of their time, do you? 12 A. It's a reasonable amount of time. I'm not sure 13 because I'm not involved in operations. 14 15 Q. So Mr Jennings is the person to ask? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton, could I just interrupt 19 to say that CSI MFI-2 contains some telephone numbers and 20 Mr Hall's email address. I direct that those personal 21 details not be published. 22 23 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Could we go to the next tab, tab 13. 24 Do you see at page 171 we've got again a board meeting but 25 it's again not clear who the board is, or which board it 26 is. Do you see that? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. At page 172, under the heading "CFO Financial Report", 30 Mr Brennan presented the financial report and included in 31 that, under the second major dot point and the second sub 32 dot point, do you see: 33 34 The CSI Audit is complete, with a 35 distribution profit of $317,340. 36 37 A. Sorry? 38 39 Q. It is about eight lines from the bottom or so. 40 A. Okay, yes. So how much? 41 42 Q. $317,340. This is made up as $60,946 for the first 43 distribution and $256,394 for the second distribution, 44 which was transferred to the CFMEU on 23 February 2012. Do 45 you see that? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. Is that the way that this was reported to the board 2 regularly when these distributions were made? 3 A. I can't really recollect every time it was done, but 4 I believe Steve -- 5 6 Q. Was it reported on? 7 A. Yes, it would have been reported on, I think. 8 9 Q. And then it goes on to say: 10 11 CSI Pty Ltd Wind Up. 12 13 CSI Pty Ltd is to be wound up by December 14 2012. Jason O'Mara and Dean Hall resigned 15 from their position from CSI Pty Ltd on 23 16 March 2012. 17 18 It appears, doesn't it, that CSI Pty Ltd, which now has the 19 other name of 119, et cetera, Pty Ltd, doesn't appear still 20 to have been wound up. Do you know why that's the 21 position? 22 A. That would be one for the accountant. 23 24 Q. You have no idea? 25 A. No, I don't. We have talked about it and it's 26 definitely something now that's part of a review that we're 27 going to action that as soon as possible. There may be 28 reasons which I - I'm really unsure, but there's usually 29 accounting reasons for those things to happen. 30 31 Q. Then we've got another board minute at tab 14. We've 32 got the same problem with which board -- 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. -- but can I ask you to go over to page 191. This 36 would appear to be part of the -- 37 A. Sorry? 38 39 Q. -- CEO Board Report starting on the previous page. It 40 says: 41 42 Staffing 43 44 John Dunmore has resigned from his position 45 of Training and Welfare Officer and will 46 stay on with CSI until 19th December 2012. 47 To assist in the workload, Creative Safety


1 Initiatives approached Leon Arnold, a 2 bricklayer by trade, who was previously 3 employed at Hindmarsh. Leon accepted the 4 position as the new permanent part-time 5 Training and Welfare Officer and will 6 commence on Monday 19th November 2012. 7 8 Did he have welfare training? 9 A. If he wouldn't have, I believe that he would have been 10 given the training. 11 12 Q. What sort of training are we talking about? 13 A. I'm not sure, but I know that they do - there's a 14 course, like, called an Assists Course, for example, where 15 you do four days training and that's an intervention course 16 for suicide. So, it is a course that you can do a primary 17 intervention with, do an intervention with, and you learn 18 the skills to be able to convert them to the appropriate 19 qualified services after that. 20 21 Q. Whilst it sounds like it is an extremely important 22 piece of training to provide to someone, it is fair to say, 23 isn't it, that the bulk of the assistance to a person who 24 is suicidal will be provided by a professional, trained at 25 university for many years; is that fair to say? 26 A. Yes, you refer them on. Look, there's all different 27 types. Suicide is one. There's drug and alcohol issues. 28 There's relationship breakdown. There's a number of issues 29 that come up as welfare issues in the construction 30 industry, but the point is that you give people basic 31 skills to be able to make contact, and this is - the point 32 here, which you highlighted, was he was a bricklayer. 33 That's an important skill because you can actually talk to 34 construction workers, because, remember, this is for 35 construction workers, and you must have some sense, you 36 know, of what people are like. It is important to get that 37 group of skills, give them some skills, so they can then 38 link people up with the appropriate professional services. 39 40 Q. It is the linking up, however, that is what they are 41 doing -- 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. -- which is really, when all is said and done, is not 45 a long period of time in a person's week, is it? 46 A. Well, it depends. Like I said earlier, it depends 47 because sometimes it's - like, for example, a person might


1 have a major dependence problem. It might involve going 2 picking them up because they've lost their driver's 3 licence, or whatever, or they don't have a driver's licence 4 or they're completely broke and they can't put petrol in 5 their car, so the actual - what they do is they go and pick 6 them up from their houses and take them to the 7 appointments, so it's practical. It's something more. 8 It's what we offer that makes us different than normal 9 people because a lot of people don't go to those 10 appointments, or miss them, because they practically just 11 can't get there, for practical reasons, so it's practical 12 help. 13 14 Q. Then it goes on to say: 15 16 Creative Safety Initiatives have also 17 recruited Glenn Carlos as CFO. Glenn has a 18 long history in finance and information 19 technology having worked in a range of 20 private companies and federal and ACT 21 Government. He commenced employment with 22 Creative Safety Initiatives on 21st August 23 2012 and will be CFO for CSI & CCW. 24 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. So he worked there, I think, for a couple of years; is 28 that right? 29 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 30 31 Q. Was his time, to your knowledge, equally divided 32 between CCW and the CSI? 33 A. It's an operational issue. I'm not sure, yes. 34 35 Q. Did he also have a role in the CFMEU? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. What was that role? 39 A. He did the books as well. 40 41 Q. How much of his time was devoted to that? 42 A. I wouldn't know how much compared to what he was doing 43 in his other area. 44 45 Q. But does he have to come into the CFMEU offices to do 46 that work? 47 A. No.


1 2 Q. How did he get -- 3 A. He was located. It was all computer. 4 5 Q. Electronic? 6 A. Yes. He might have come in occasionally. I got 7 invoices or, you know, like payment requisitions and stuff 8 like - paperwork like that, but he didn't spend physical 9 time in there, but I know he was working on it. I don't 10 know how much. Our books are a little less complicated 11 than these books, probably. 12 13 Q. Would Mr Jennings know how he divided his time, that 14 is, how Mr Carlos divided his time? 15 A. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. 16 17 Q. Can I now invite you, please, to turn to tab 15, 18 page 209. 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. There is a report here from Mr Brennan. Halfway down 22 the page it talks about a reduction in net working capital? 23 A. Sorry, I just - where's that one? 24 25 Q. It says: 26 27 The major factor causing the reduction in 28 net working capital is the transfer of 29 $200,000 to the CFMEU (ACT) - partially as 30 a distribution of profit ($145,000) and the 31 balance as a loan against 2013 profits. 32 33 Do you know what that's about? 34 A. No. 35 36 Q. You have no idea why CFMEU would appear to be 37 receiving a loan? 38 A. No. 39 40 Q. Just also back to "Staffing", just a few pages back, 41 at page 205 -- 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. -- towards the top of the page: 45 46 Administration. 47


1 Staffing 2 3 John Dunmore finished his employment with 4 CSI on Wednesday 19th December. 5 Leon Arnold commenced work as a part-time 6 Training and Welfare Officer on Monday 19th 7 November working three days a week. Leon 8 is learning the course materials and 9 delivery methods for the short courses CSI 10 provides. Leon will train alongside Dick 11 to further develop his training skills and 12 confidence. 13 14 So you will see there it is all about training, at least as 15 recorded in this document? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. And nothing about -- 19 A. Sometimes minutes don't -- 20 21 Q. I beg your pardon, sir? 22 A. Sometimes minutes don't capture the whole entirety of 23 the meetings. 24 25 Q. Did you sign off on those minutes or did someone else? 26 I don't think we have a signed copy. 27 A. Okay. 28 29 Q. Page 202, no signing there. The next minutes start at 30 tab 16 for January-April 2013. At page 216 we still have 31 that part referring to the strategic plan? 32 A. Sorry, I'm just getting there. Yes. 33 34 Q. Do you see that? At 216, we've still got that bit 35 that you say was included in error; is that right? 36 A. Yes. And it's definitely something we're actioning to 37 remove. 38 39 Q. Then we've got page 217: 40 41 Diversification 42 43 TFA Research & Development Funding. 44 45 It is to develop an impairment training course? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. So that's someone developing a course? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. Then we've got people with various modules: 5 Carmel O'Sullivan, Michael Peterson, Dr Ken Pidd and 6 Michael Peterson again. Who are those people to your 7 knowledge? 8 A. Carmel is a clinical psychologist. Michael Peterson 9 is a person who lecturers in occupational health and 10 safety. I don't know, I think he's got like a university 11 degree in occupational health and safety. Dr Ken Pidd is 12 from I think Flinders University, the Alcohol and Drug 13 Centre there for In the Workplace. He holds a doctorate in 14 Alcohol and Drugs in the Workplace. 15 16 Q. These are courses that are aimed to be, or are planned 17 to be offered by CSI not CCW; is that right? 18 A. Yes. That impairment course is - we used to do drug 19 and alcohol awareness training but we realised that - 20 like, for example, there are a lot more factors that 21 influence accidents on construction sites other than drugs 22 and alcohol. Fatigue is a big problem. There's excessive 23 hours in the construction industry. It's about - we 24 broadened the course and also there's chemicals - you know, 25 you can go down into a basement and a generator could be 26 running; the carbon monoxide can affect your ability to 27 work safely. So the course become more about impairment 28 other than just drugs and alcohol impairment. We're 29 actually broadening the course to cover more topics. 30 31 Q. Could you turn, please, now to page 218. 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. There's a list there of training completed -- 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. -- for a total of 3,033 participants and various 38 different courses are set out there. 39 A. Where is the 3,000? 40 41 Q. It says it at the top. 42 A. Oh, okay. 43 44 Q. 199 courses for a total of 3,033 participants. 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. And there's a breakdown. Are you able to identify the


1 high skills courses amongst those? 2 A. High-risk licences. 3 4 Q. High-risk licences? 5 A. Yes, courses. Well, it's debatable, but first-aid you 6 need to have a ticket, but that's not a high risk licence. 7 8 Q. What does the column "For seen Numbers" mean? 9 A. Basic scaffold. 10 11 Q. I am going to stop you before you go into that. It 12 says, "Total Claimed", "For seen Numbers" and "To Reach 13 Goal". What does that all mean? 14 A. I don't know. It's a document that was not produced 15 by me. But do you want me to continue with what the high 16 risk licences are? 17 18 Q. Yes, please. 19 A. "Basic scaffold", you require a ticket for that. 20 "Boom Type Elevating Work platform", which is an 11-plus 21 boom, you're required to have a ticket; underneath that, 22 you must show competency. "Confined space" requires a 23 ticket, it's high risk work. "Dogging", that's people who 24 attend to cranes, attend to the loads on cranes. "Traffic 25 management" requires a ticket in every other jurisdiction 26 I think in a country bar the ACT, but what happens is 27 you've got to be deemed to be competent but most employers 28 say that they want the New South Wales RTA recognised 29 course, so that's what's delivered. You've got to show as 30 the employer that people are deemed to be competent. 31 32 Q. Is that the traffic management -- 33 A. "Traffic Management - Stop/Slow". 34 35 Q. Not the "Traffic Control Yellow Card", Orange or Red 36 further down? 37 A. That's so you can set up. I'll get to that one. 38 That's so you can set up. What that means is you can 39 interpret plans and set the traffic management up. Sorry, 40 hold on. "Personnel Material Hoist Operator", you need a 41 ticket for that. 42 43 Q. Is that "Personnel materials hoist operator"? 44 A. Yes. What that is, it's the temporary lift that's 45 attached to a building under construction. It's operated 46 by someone, you know, the one that goes up the side on a - 47 you see them all around here. Again, that's a high risk


1 activity because if you stuff it up, you could kill lots of 2 people. "Intermediate scaffold". "Material hoist" is a 3 ticket, again, it's a very dangerous activity. The 4 "Traffic Control Yellow Card", "Traffic Control Orange 5 Card", I think Orange Card - I don't - well, I won't quote 6 because I think that you can actually write traffic 7 management plans, but I'm not right up on this, I don't do 8 it that much anymore. A tower crane, which is obvious. 9 That's to drive a tower crane. I think that's about it. 10 Oh, this might not be at this time - no, it wasn't, I'm not 11 sure, but Asbestos Awareness requires a ticket. You need 12 to be ticketed for Asbestos Awareness. Like, if you don't 13 have that ticket, you can't work on a construction site in 14 the Territory. 15 16 Q. What's the difference - why is it on two different 17 lines the NAT 10314 Course in Asbestos -- 18 A. Sorry, which one are you looking at? 19 20 Q. The last two lines, "Asbestos Awareness" and then 21 there's "Combined Asbestos NAT 10314", where's -- 22 A. I'm not sure. 23 24 Q. How long were those -- 25 A. That might be - I'm not sure. No, I couldn't - 26 I wouldn't say actually. 27 28 Q. How long are those ticketed courses, or are they all 29 different lengths? 30 A. They're all different lengths, and that's defined by - 31 the courses are registered often and there's a defined, you 32 know, duration of how long they - you've got to cover - 33 for example, the White Card and Asbestos Card, you must 34 cover the prescribed content as it is without varying from 35 it. That's very strict in its delivery. 36 37 Q. Can I now invite you, please, to turn to tab 17. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: Just on asbestos I think that figure of 40 636 in the last line is the sum of 350 in the second-last 41 line and halfway down the page it says "Asbestos Awareness 42 Training 286". I think 350 and 286 is 636. 43 44 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 45 46 Q. At tab 17, there's a further minute. There's a board 47 meeting apparently convened on 30 April. Do you see there


1 at the cover sheet, at page 222, it says the period "May 2 2013 to April 2014", does that mean there's been no board 3 meeting in that intervening period? 4 A. I couldn't say for sure, but probably. That's what it 5 looks like, doesn't it, yes. 6 7 Q. Can we go to page 237, CSI Trust Finance Director's 8 Report for the year ended 31 December 2013. 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. And it says under that table at page 237: 12 13 The overall profit level is 5% above 14 budget. Income from general training has 15 risen by around 9% above the budget, with 16 the biggest increase associated with 17 Asbestos Safety Training (budget $153,700, 18 actual $374,184) - some courses such as 19 OH&S Committee Training and height safety 20 are running below budget ... Excluding 21 training, the increase can be attributed to 22 greater certainty and revenue from the 23 Built-Plus insurance commissions (budget 24 $20,000, actual $90,781). 25 26 Do you see that? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. So that, you'd agree, comes via the clause in the 30 enterprise agreement? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. The Union, having those enterprise agreements signed 34 up, has a direct impact on the bottom line; that's right? 35 A. Sorry, can I get the question again? Sorry. 36 37 Q. The Union having companies sign up to the EBA 38 containing this clause has a direct impact on the bottom 39 line of the Union's coffers, that's right, isn't it? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. And then we've got CSI is $97,000 or so above budget 43 is expenditure levels. 44 45 Most of the increased expenditure relates 46 to Consulting Fees for external trainers. 47


1 Thank you. Can we now go to tab 18 and, in particular, 2 page 250. 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. The line by itself between the two fuller paragraphs 6 says: 7 8 The overall profit before distributions to 9 CFMEU is $856,237 or 135% above budget. 10 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. And then it says: 14 15 The final profit distribution to CFMEU has 16 not been taken up in the accounts until the 17 Profit and Loss is finalised. We are in 18 the process of reviewing outstanding 19 debtors in order to ascertain the provision 20 for bad and doubtful debts. Once the 21 provision is calculated we will be in a 22 better position to calculate the final 23 profit distribution. At this stage the 24 final profit distribution to CFMEU will be 25 $271,928 less any provision for bad and 26 doubtful debts. An additional $200,000 has 27 already been paid in cash to CFMEU on 28 22 January 2015. 29 30 Do you see that? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Also in that year, back one page, page 245, you signed 34 off on an approved trip for Mr Jennings to the 35 United States; is that right? 36 A. And Canada. 37 38 Q. And Canada? 39 A. And Canada, yes. 40 41 Q. Was that trip actually undertaken? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Did he report back? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. Any matters that were seen by him on that trip, were


1 they introduced by way of reforms into the practices of any 2 of the companies he was associated with? 3 A. We're working through some of the issues now. 4 5 Q. Also back on page 243, we've got further information 6 towards the bottom of that page about staffing? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. 10 Leon Arnold has resigned as a part-time 11 training and welfare officer as of 12 29 November 2013. The position will not be 13 replaced. 14 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. 18 Hannah Roberts has been hired to assist in 19 the finance admin area as a casual. 20 21 CSI has relocated back to 3 Rosevear Place, 22 Dickson. 23 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. Did that have an impact, the fact that, for example, 27 Mr Arnold's position was not replaced, on what CCW was 28 paying to CSI as part of the management fee? 29 A. I'm not sure, sorry. 30 31 Q. We now come to tab 19 and that's the beginning of the 32 documents in relation more specifically to CCW. 33 A. Mmm-hmm. 34 35 Q. Again, this is the basis of part of the information on 36 our chart. We can see there that CCW was set up in 2008, 37 7 February, and that you are a current director -- 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. -- as is Mr Carrick and Mr Abraham? 41 A. Sorry, which page are we on now? 42 43 Q. Page 252. 44 A. Sorry, 2 -- 45 46 Q. The first document after tab 19. 47 A. 252, yes. Okay, yes.


1 2 Q. Do you see "Current Director" towards the bottom of 3 that page? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. You? 7 A. Yes, and then it goes over. 8 9 Q. Then you see Mr Carrick and Mr Abraham? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. How did Mr Carrick and Mr Abraham come to be on the 13 board because they came on on 28 June 2013? 14 15 MR BORGEEST: Commissioner, I am really waiting for the 16 establishment, the evidentiary basis, to deal with the 17 objection which includes an objection to this line of 18 inquiry about the governance of this entity. I suggest to 19 my friend that perhaps if she addressed the constitution of 20 the entity, that would then be the foundation of the 21 submission that I would make. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Is the issue this: that Construction 24 Charitable Works Limited, in your submission, is not a 25 relevant entity because it was not established by an 26 employee association, is that your point? 27 28 MR BORGEEST: Yes. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Didn't Mr Hall say very early on in his 31 evidence, and he corrected it in one respect a little 32 later, that all the entities we can see on CSI MFI-1 are 33 really created for the benefit of members of the CFMEU, 34 their families and the community in which they live. 35 36 If they are all for the benefit of the CFMEU, given 37 that Mr Hall and other CFMEU identities are tied up in the 38 directorates of these bodies, can't one infer that 39 Construction Charitable Works Limited was a separate entity 40 - it is certainly a company - established by an employee 41 association, namely, the CFMEU? 42 43 He did correct that general statement at the beginning 44 of his evidence later, I think, by excising from it CITEA, 45 but otherwise the point stands, there's the evidence. 46 47 MR BORGEEST: Yes. Another way that his evidence was


1 characterised at an earlier stage was that he has 2 understanding and impressions about the structure of 3 various entities on the chart that he was being taken to 4 and that respect was given to him, but the observation was 5 made that the documents are more reliable. 6 7 The evidence can be understood in a number of ways, 8 including that there is, generally speaking, a concordance 9 of interests between various entities and their Objects 10 that are reflected in the chart. 11 12 The position is that Construction Charitable Works 13 Limited was formed by the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club 14 Community Fund Limited. The constitution establishes that 15 that entity was the only member of Construction Charitable 16 Works Limited at the time of the latter company's 17 formation. I don't think the constitution or other 18 materials go so far as to say what the membership position 19 might be today, but the relevant gate through which you 20 pass into paragraph A of the Terms of Reference of this 21 inquiry is an examination of the position at the time an 22 entity was formed and by whom it was formed. 23 24 The Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Community Fund 25 Limited is a public company limited by guarantee. It is 26 not an employee association and it is not an officer of 27 such an association. 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to develop your point any 30 more? 31 32 MR BORGEEST: Not on the question of whether Construction 33 Charitable Works Limited is a relevant entity. I can speak 34 to the consequences that would flow under the Terms of 35 Reference. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: If it is not a relevant entity, then 38 paragraphs A to -- 39 40 MR BORGEEST: The surviving paragraphs are (g) and (h), 41 effectively. 42 43 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Ms McNaughton, what do you say to 44 this objection? 45 46 MS McNAUGHTON: "Separate entity" is defined in the Terms 47 of Reference as:


1 2 (a) An entity that is or was at any time a 3 fund, organisation, account or other 4 financial arrangement; and 5 6 (b) Established for, or purportedly for an 7 industrial purpose or the welfare of 8 members of an employee association. 9 10 MR BORGEEST: There is no argument that we are a separate 11 entity. We are just not a relevant entity, that's the 12 submission. 13 14 MS McNAUGHTON: In terms of the original membership of the 15 board of directors of CCW, it included Ms Schoonwater and 16 we understand Ms Schoonwater to have been a previous 17 Secretary of the CFMEU. That is apparent from page 253 of 18 the bundle. 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: You said that Ms Schoonwater was 21 established to be a former director of CCW, but you 22 mentioned something about a connection with the CFMEU? 23 24 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. She was previously the Secretary of 25 the CFMEU. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 28 29 MS McNAUGHTON: As at that time of the establishment of 30 the company. I would need to find a reference. I am not 31 sure if it is in the material. It is certainly inferred by 32 the material. 33 34 We also have before the Commission, in volume 4, the 35 constitution of the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club 36 Community Fund. That's at tab 59. I think there is also a 37 revised constitution at tab 61 where the members are the 38 two trades Union Clubs and the Union is mentioned in the 39 "Definitions" section as well. 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: Do we know who the directors of the 42 Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Community Fund Limited were 43 on 7 February 2008, apart from Mr Hall? 44 45 MS McNAUGHTON: The constitution at tab 61, which I think 46 is the revised constitution, sets out the directors as at 47 that date, at 7.3, volume 4, page 1227.


1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. When it says "The Constitution of 3 the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Community Fund", that 4 is a fund but is it a company? 5 6 MS McNAUGHTON: It is a company. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: It doesn't say "Limited". Yes. I see, 9 rule 5. 10 11 MS McNAUGHTON: Rule 5, yes. 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: All right. 14 15 MS McNAUGHTON: And 7.5 provides: 16 17 If a Director dies, resigns as a Director, 18 ceases to be an Ordinary Member ... 19 20 Et cetera, can be replaced provided that the other person 21 is an ordinary member of "the Club". "The Club" is defined 22 at 1225 as the "Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Limited" 23 and the "Woden Tradesmen's Union Club Limited". We do have 24 those documents which I will just take you to, 25 Commissioner. My friends don't have these, but we will 26 provide them. 27 28 THE COMMISSIONER: Can I make a suggestion? Mr Hall is 29 obviously a highly intelligent, determined and, in a sense, 30 altruistic and idealistic man. He is deeply motivated by 31 the advancement of the interests of the CFMEU ACT. 32 33 Just leaving aside what I might call the 34 technicalities, it would be very surprising if he and other 35 persons associated with the CFMEU had not been the moving 36 forces behind setting up Construction Charitable Works 37 Limited, but if you have documents you want to show to 38 Mr Borgeest, I think it might be better if we postponed a 39 ruling on this question until they have looked at those 40 documents overnight. That is my present position. 41 42 I do not think any great harm or prejudice will flow 43 from looking into Construction Charitable Works Limited in 44 the next hour or so. If it is outside the Terms of 45 Reference, then some evidence will have been received that 46 should not be taken into account in dealing with matters 47 which are within the Terms of Reference, but that may be


1 the best way to proceed now. 2 3 MS McNAUGHTON: Certainly. If I could just indicate one 4 quick point? 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 7 8 MS McNAUGHTON: That the constitution, for example, of the 9 Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Limited itself provides: 10 11 Ordinary Member. 12 13 A person shall be entitled to be admitted 14 to the club as an Ordinary Member only if 15 that person is a financial member of the 16 Union, or is an Officer, and provided that 17 person lives within a 50 kilometre radius 18 of the clubhouse. 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Which clause is that? 21 22 MS McNAUGHTON: That's not before the Commission yet, but 23 the relevant Union is the CFMEU ACT. We can provide that. 24 25 MR BORGEEST: We have seen those documents, Commissioner. 26 The purpose of raising this matter now, as we've had 27 two-thirds of a day, including going through, in a 28 comprehensive way, a set of minutes and questions about 29 internal governance for the first of the entities for which 30 I act, the questions that were commencing when I intervened 31 were to do with the appointment of members of the governing 32 body of Construction Charitable Works, and certainly we 33 assert no prejudice arises from those questions being 34 explored, but, in our view, they are plainly outside the 35 Terms of Reference of this Commission. If it would save 36 some comparable period of hearing time, that might be the 37 preferable course to letting the evidence in and dealing 38 with the question in submissions, but that is a matter for 39 the Commission. 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: Let me just pause for a moment. There 42 is another possible part of the Terms of Reference: (g), 43 and I am not indicating any point of view at all on the 44 accuracy of this possibility, but it is a possibility, one 45 has to start by inquiring into a question and the question 46 might be answered favourably to Mr Hall or unfavourably to 47 Mr Hall, but (g) is:


1 2 Any conduct which may amount to a breach of 3 any ... professional standard by any 4 officer of an employee association. 5 6 We have had a little bit of discussion about fiduciary 7 duties. I expect Ms McNaughton will show some interest in 8 the question of whether the way the entities on CSI MFI-1 9 have been operating does involve failures of disclosure of 10 possible conflicts of interest. Although one can breach 11 fiduciary duties really unconsciously and without any 12 malign intent, to do so would nonetheless be a breach of a 13 professional standard. 14 15 Then there would be some controversy as to whether (i) 16 and (ii) applied. It procures an advantage for Mr Hall in 17 the sense that it advances a cause dear to his heart. It 18 procures advantages, perhaps, to other legal persons. 19 20 The problem about challenges to evidence as being 21 outside the Terms of Reference is that a question can be 22 relevant, even though the evidence eventually leads to an 23 answer which shows that the conclusion one has come to is, 24 in a sense, outside the Terms of Reference. In some ways 25 it is like assessing the admissibility of evidence in an 26 ordinary case: you have to make certain assumptions; you 27 have to assume that the evidence will be believed. If it 28 is not believed, of course, it is, in a sense, completely 29 immaterial, completely irrelevant, but if it is believed, 30 it is relevant and, at the outset, it is assumed to be 31 relevant. 32 33 I still think it might be better if we looked at this 34 overnight. 35 36 MR BORGEEST: As the Commission pleases. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? You can raise the 39 Terms of Reference question tomorrow morning, if you wish. 40 41 MR BORGEEST: I'm sorry, Commissioner? 42 43 THE COMMISSIONER: You can raise afresh the Terms of 44 Reference question tomorrow morning. 45 46 MR BORGEEST: Thank you. 47


1 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, just on Ms Schoonwater, when did 2 she become Secretary, to your knowledge, of the ACT Branch 3 of the CFMEU? 4 A. I'm unsure. 5 6 Q. You don't know? 7 A. I can't remember. 8 9 Q. Where would we conveniently find that information? 10 A. BCOM minutes, probably, Committee of Management 11 Minutes. It might have been around - actually, I'm not 12 sure - around February 2008. It looks maybe around that 13 time. 14 15 Q. That she became Secretary? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. She was the Secretary up until, continuously, you 19 became Secretary; is that right? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. First of all Acting Secretary and then -- 23 A. Yes. Once it was formalised by COM, Committee of 24 Management. 25 26 Q. At tab 19 we see Mr Carrick and Mr Abraham, along with 27 yourself, being the current directors of CCW? 28 A. Mmm-hmm. 29 30 Q. Are they associated with the Tradies or some other 31 organisation? 32 A. Sorry? 33 34 Q. Are they associated with the Tradies, the Tradies 35 group? 36 A. No. 37 38 Q. Who are they associated with? 39 A. One 's a lawyer and one's an accountant. 40 41 Q. But prior to them coming on on 28 June, Mr Brennan was 42 a director, that's right? Mr Driver, Mr Docker, Mr O'Mara, 43 Mr Scott, they all stopped being directors on 28 June. Do 44 you know why that change of regime occurred? 45 A. It was just - oh, I think people's time and getting a 46 different set of skills in to try to assist the charity. 47 We talked about it, and it was good to have an accountant


1 and a lawyer. 2 3 Q. You had also been a previous director of CCW, it says 4 on page 254, between 7 February 2008 and 30 June 2009; do 5 you see that? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Ms Churchward and Ms Evans, were they involved with 9 the CFMEU to your knowledge? 10 A. No. 11 12 Q. Just for completeness, at page 255, we see the current 13 ultimate holding company is the CTUCCF Limited? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. If we can go to tab 20, just for completeness, again, 17 there we have the ASIC search for that company, the 18 Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Community Fund Limited? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. You are a director of that currently along with 22 Mr Driver, Mr O'Mara, Mr Jennings and Mr Scott? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Ms Schoonwater ceased her directorship on 18 January 26 2010 which apparently coincides with when you became the 27 Acting Secretary; is that right? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. She started on that organisation on 20 April 2006? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Do you know what that coincided with, that date? 34 A. No. 35 36 Q. No? 37 A. No. 38 39 Q. We then have at tab 21 a download or extract from the 40 Construction Charitable Works website and that was 41 accessed, one can see from the bottom right-hand corner, 42 page 264, on 1 December 2014, and the subsequent pages 43 behind that tab on 2 February 2015. Do you see that? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. At tab 22 we then have what constitutes the sum total 47 of the CCW website --


1 A. Sorry, 22? 2 3 Q. Yes, the next tab. 4 A. Sorry, I jumped one. Okay. That's just the logo. 5 6 Q. Yes. Page 270 is the only presence, in terms of a 7 website, that CCW had as at 26 June 2015. Indeed, a check 8 has been made, if you would accept from me today, that that 9 is the case as at today. Why is it that CCW has taken down 10 their website? 11 A. I don't know. 12 13 Q. No idea? 14 A. No. 15 16 Q. Anything to do with the Royal Commission? 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. You say that quite quickly. Are you certain about 20 that? 21 A. Well, in my mind. No. 22 23 Q. We then have at tab 23 the constitution of CCW. 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. There are various definitions. The Objects of the 27 company are at page 275. You would be familiar with those? 28 A. Sorry, I'll just look at them, if that's okay. Yes. 29 30 Q. At page 278, or clause 5.1, it says: 31 The Members are: 32 (a) CTUCCF;. 33 34 A. Yes, 5.1, yes. 35 36 Q. And 37 38 (b) any other Members admitted in 39 accordance with this Constitution. 40 41 Do you know of any other members admitted? 42 A. Not to my knowledge. 43 44 Q. Over at page 289, at clause 23.3 -- 45 A. Sorry. I'm not there yet, sorry. 23? 46 47 Q. 23.3.


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Do you see there: 4 5 Interest of CTUCCF 6 7 As long as the Company - 8 9 -- that is CCW -- 10 11 - is a wholly-owned subsidiary of CTUCCF 12 (within the meaning of the Act) - 13 14 -- and that is the Corporations Act -- 15 16 - each Director is authorised to act in the 17 best interests of CTUCCF. 18 19 Do you see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Did you know that that was in there? 23 A. I read that a couple of days ago, yes. 24 25 Q. But before that did you know that was in there? 26 A. No. 27 28 Q. Then over at tab 24, there is a print-out to show that 29 CCW is a registered charity; do you see that? 30 A. Sorry, I keep jumping up. Registered charity? Yes. 31 32 Q. And that accords with your understanding? 33 A. It doesn't have gift deductibility. 34 35 Q. Why do you say that? 36 A. Because it doesn't. We couldn't achieve it. We tried 37 to, but, you know, yeah, we couldn't achieve it. The 38 accountants - our lawyers and accountants attempted to do 39 it for us, but they couldn't achieve it. 40 41 Q. You have been advised of that situation by whom? 42 A. The company Secretary and -- 43 44 Q. Is that Mr Brennan? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. Anyone else?


1 A. I can't recall but - yes, no, we were dealing with a 2 person - I forget their name, but there was a lawyer that 3 we - a specialised person who does this stuff that we got 4 in, but we couldn't get gift deductibility. 5 6 Q. We then now have financial statements for 2013 for CCW 7 starting at tab 25. 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. It is in familiar form. Over at page 304 there is a 11 Directors' Report. 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. There is information on current directors being 15 Mr Abraham, Mr Carrick and yourself? 16 A. Mmm-hmm. 17 18 Q. It says "Information on Current Directors". Included 19 under your information -- 20 A. Where is this? 21 22 Q. At the bottom of page 304. 23 A. Sorry, yes. Okay, yes. 24 25 Q. It is up on the screen. At the bottom of the page is 26 you and your information. It says: 27 28 - Club Director 3 years 29 - Bachelor of Education 30 - Bachelor of Social Work 31 - Cert IV Workplace Trainer and Assessor. 32 33 Do you see there that it does not include the fact that you 34 are Secretary of the CFMEU? 35 A. I think they're talking about qualifications. I'm 36 just listing my qualifications. There's a "Club Director" 37 one there, yes, you're right. I don't know why that wasn't 38 not there. 39 40 Q. Was that deliberate? 41 A. No. 42 43 Q. It wasn't to keep the public's awareness of the 44 association with the CFMEU away from the connection -- 45 A. No. I don't hide the fact that I'm the CFMEU 46 Secretary. 47


1 Q. Page 308, we see the other side of the -- 2 A. Sorry, I'm just getting there, sorry. Yes. 3 4 Q. We've got "Operating Expenses". We've got the 5 management fee as an expense for CCW of $214,000 or so in 6 2013. So that is the other side of what we saw before? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. And that, along with "Training Support", which is the 10 item below of just under $250,000, they would appear to be 11 by far the largest expenditure items within the accounts, 12 you would agree? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. For a charity, you would agree, given its total 16 operating expenses is $558,000, or so, the management fee 17 is an extremely large percentage of their total operating 18 expenses; do you see that? 19 A. I don't know about other charities. 20 21 Q. You can just see from this, the revenue is $650,000 -- 22 A. I do know that some charities, like the 23 Salvation Army, spend a lot of money on marketing and 24 administration. There's been reports and in the newspaper 25 that sometimes the amount of money that some very good 26 charities, they necessarily have to have administration, 27 marketing and other stuff that goes with them. They just 28 can't run on an oily rag or without telling people their 29 good work or actually participating in, you know, having 30 people to run it. 31 32 Q. So you are satisfied that that is a fair figure for 33 management fees? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. And you are satisfied, why? 37 A. Because I think it's a reasonable reflection of what 38 the organisation does. 39 40 Q. I thought before you said you didn't really have the 41 day-to-day knowledge of -- 42 A. No, strategically as the Chair, that's my belief. 43 44 Q. What's the strategic thing as the Chair? 45 A. That I think from an overarching - from someone who is 46 providing a role not in operations, I think that's 47 reasonable.


1 2 Q. What do you mean by "strategic"? It's either a 3 reasonable amount or not? 4 A. I'm not sure. Like when - no, I think it's 5 reasonable. 6 7 Q. But why do you think it's reasonable, if you don't 8 have day-to-day knowledge of what happened? 9 A. I just- I think it's reasonable. 10 11 Q. So of a total revenue of $650,000 and total operating 12 expenses of about $558,000, you think a management fee of 13 $214,829 is reasonable? 14 A. It is just not for management. It is for the 15 fieldworkers as well and the administration that goes with 16 it. 17 18 Q. Can you please turn now to page 317, that's still 19 behind the same tab. 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Do you see there "Related Party Transactions"? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. There is donations received between directors or 26 director related entities? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. The donations are declared there from both the 30 Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Limited and the 31 Woden Tradesmen's Union Club Limited? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Was any thought given, so far as you are aware, as to 35 whether the management fees paid by CCW to CSI, or CETW as 36 trustee for CSI, of which you were a director, should have 37 been included? 38 A. I'm not aware of that, no. 39 40 Q. So far as you're aware, no thought was given to the 41 conclusion of that? 42 A. No. I have no recollection of it as a point. 43 44 Q. We then go over to page 321, that's behind the next 45 tab, tab 26. There's a further financial statements 46 document, this time for 2014. Do you see a very similar 47 Directors' Report at page 324 and, again, your association


1 as the Secretary of the CFMEU ACT is not mentioned? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. You say that has nothing to do with you trying to hide 5 your involvement with the CFMEU so far as these publicly 6 available documents are concerned? 7 A. Without being conceited, I think everybody in the 8 construction industry knows that I'm the Secretary. 9 10 Q. At page 328 we have that figure? 11 A. Sorry? 12 13 Q. At page 328 -- 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. -- we have that figure of $214,829 of management fees? 17 A. Yes. Well, it's also additionally fieldworkers. 18 19 Q. Could we now turn to tab 27, please, or page 346. Do 20 you see there we've got that same -- 21 A. Sorry, which page? 22 23 Q. Page 346. 24 A. Sorry. 25 26 Q. It is up on the screen if that's convenient. 27 A. I prefer to read it. Yes. 28 29 Q. We again have that introductory paragraph: 30 31 This report is written as accountability to 32 the highest priority goals for Construction 33 Industry Training and Employment 34 Association ... Creative Safety Initiatives 35 ... & Construction Charitable Works ... as 36 outlined in the Strategic Plan ... 37 38 You again say that is an error? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. So that is an error now of two different organisations 42 of a very similar type? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Could we then go over to page 347, if you'd be kind 46 enough, and under the heading "Finance", it says: 47


1 Please see draft budget ... 2 3 A. Sorry, which page is that? 4 5 Q. Page 347. 6 A. Sorry. Could you direct me to that, please? 7 8 Q. It is under "Finance". It says: 9 10 Please see CFO report and please see draft 11 budget attached. 12 13 A. Yes. Sorry, yes. 14 15 Q. Could you now go over to page 349 which is the Chief 16 Financial Officer or CFO's report? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. We're back in 2010. Do you see there, under that 20 workings out section in the middle of the page, there's a 21 paragraph which says: 22 23 Construction Charitable Works Limited has 24 now agreed to take an assignment of the 25 debt owing to BTG ... 26 27 Which is the Building Trades Group, is it? 28 A. Yes. That would have been the Building Trades Group 29 Drug and Alcohol Program: 30 31 ... by Creative Safety Initiatives Pty Ltd 32 as this company has ceased to trade and in 33 all likelihood will be wound up. This has 34 reduced the net assets by $126,463 to 35 $104,935. 36 37 Here, then, it is purported that the debt owing to BTG by 38 CSI Pty Ltd is being transferred across to CCW, or they 39 agreed to. 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. It's probably not legally correct, but the effect was 43 clear. 44 A. Yes, I understand what you're saying. 45 46 Q. Why do you think that went to CCW and not the 47 organisation which purported to take over the work?


1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. That is, CETW? 4 A. Yes, Building Trades Group - the BTG is not defined 5 correctly. It is the Building and Trades Group Drug and 6 Alcohol Program. I used to run that in a previous role in 7 the organisation. I ran it for nine years. 8 9 Q. Is that in Canberra -- 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. -- or in Sydney? 13 A. In Canberra. There was a branch in Canberra. 14 15 Q. Right. 16 A. I used to run it. The issue was - the decision was to 17 bring it across to be used as counselling services. 18 There's money in there to do any counselling. So I just 19 thought it would be best fit, because it used to be part of 20 the old drug and alcohol program, that it would go across 21 into that one instead. 22 23 Q. Can you just explain, seeing you seem to be the 24 person, of how that Drug and Alcohol Committee worked? 25 What was it? What was it a committee of? 26 A. It was just workers who came together. Mainly people 27 who have had - what's the correct terminology? People who 28 have had problems with drugs and alcohol, might be in 29 recovery, and they - we set it up to do drug and alcohol 30 education. 31 32 Q. Who set it up? 33 A. It was before my time. I was only employed there. It 34 was way back. 35 36 Q. Who paid your wages? 37 A. Who paid my wages? Whatever money that was in the 38 BTG, I raised money by having vending machines on 39 construction sites, getting sponsorship myself for the 40 program, and doing training at the time in drug and alcohol 41 awareness. That was the - you know, it was before the 42 training fund or anything like that, so -- 43 44 Q. Who was on your pay slip and who was on your tax 45 certificate or your -- 46 A. The CFMEU administered it through the payroll, but I 47 was responsible for raising my own money.


1 2 Q. Did you know Trevor Sharp at the time? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. Was he your counterpart in Sydney at the time? 6 A. Yes, counterpart is probably - yes, more like a - not 7 counterpart - yes, counterpart is the word, yes. I'm just 8 trying to -- 9 10 Q. Equivalent person? 11 A. He's probably - we were a little program. There's a 12 lot bigger program, there's more people here. It was a one 13 man show, it was me. 14 15 Q. Were you employed by the CFMEU? 16 A. Ah, no, - well, I don't really know how I was employed 17 but I was never defined as a CFMEU employee. I was the 18 drug and alcohol officer. 19 20 Q. But your employer for tax purposes, et cetera, was the 21 CFMEU? 22 A. Yes, they used to generate the payroll and stuff like 23 that, yes. 24 25 Q. What years did you do that job? 26 A. Roughly? You know, 1998 to before I went to become an 27 occupational health and safety - before I became - when 28 I went to be a manager, you know, for Construction Control. 29 Do you see that in the CV? I don't know if I have it in 30 there, have I? No. 31 32 Q. You're looking at your CV? 33 A. Yes. There it is there. It is in "Professional 34 Achievements", 1998 to 2004. 35 36 Q. That was full-time? 37 A. Yes. I came from being a school teacher to do that 38 and, during that time, that's when I started my part-time 39 social work degree, mainly because what happened is there 40 was no support services when there was big major accidents 41 on site and, by default, they rang me up to deal with 42 trauma after - which I now know is post-traumatic distress 43 disorder but I didn't know what the hell it was, so I was 44 called out because there was no support service in the 45 industry so they used to call me. 46 47 Q. You were a teacher at the time?


1 A. No, I wasn't a teacher anymore. I was working - I was 2 a teacher and then I came to do this. Yes, that's right, 3 I had no qualifications. They were saying, "We have 4 nothing", so employers would ring me and say, "Can you come 5 out and help us, there's something going wrong here". I 6 did realise very quickly that my skill levels weren't right 7 so I enrolled in a social work degree because I needed - 8 more and more I was dealing with things around, you know, 9 serious fatalities and really nasty accidents where people 10 had parts of their bodies ripped off, et cetera, and the 11 effect of that on other workers, you know, I was called out 12 to help them and I felt that I didn't have any skills to 13 help them, so I went and investigated and did the social 14 work degree to try to give me skills so I could deal with 15 these people, help these people. Also I was dealing with 16 their families, like, of killed workers, so I'd end up 17 going to their houses and talking to the kids, and stuff 18 like that, and I just found that I was not in a position - 19 I didn't have the skills to be able to help these people. 20 I don't know how it's really improved because it's still a 21 terrible situation, but it gave me more comfort that I was 22 trying to help them. 23 24 Q. Could we then turn, please, to page 350. This is the 25 2011 Budget Analysis for CCW. 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. I think it might be a draft budget. Do you know 29 whether it is draft or -- 30 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you, sorry. 31 32 Q. It's got there under "Expenses": 33 34 Bank charges 35 Meeting expenses 36 Accounting 37 Management Fees (CITEA/CISC) $80,000.00 38 39 A. Sorry. Yes. 40 41 Q. "Senior Counseller (CFMEU) $95,000.00"? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. So how did that work, then? 45 A. That's what I explained before, remember, about myself 46 and Shayne. That was when this was taking place. 47 Shayne Hall.


1 2 Q. Right. If any counselling took place, it was the 3 CFMEU person, and CCW would pay the CFMEU? 4 A. But also we were doing setting up the intake and the 5 policies and procedures, and all the things in the privacy 6 documents. So what we were doing was working on basically 7 setting up a service from scratch, so that money there paid 8 for a combination of providing support for the field 9 officers, direct involvement with clients, and also setting 10 up policies and procedures. 11 12 Q. Counselling services are also an expense of $15,000. 13 A. Yes, that would - I'm not sure, but I'd say that's 14 probably getting - handing over people to psychologists and 15 people like that. 16 17 Q. Further down, we've got: 18 19 Drug and Alcohol/OHS training in ACT 20 Schools CSI. $75,000.00 21 22 A. That's where I talked about - remember we did the 23 work to talk to kids at schools, before they went out on 24 work experience. 25 26 Q. That's an expense apparently being paid by CCW to CSI? 27 A. Yes, it is, because they were doing the training. 28 29 Q. Right. 30 A. But it was something that - yes. So we were going out 31 and talking to kids who were going out on work experience. 32 Because at that time it wasn't mandatory to have an 33 Induction Card in the construction industry, in the 34 Territory, so we thought that was very dangerous, sending 35 school students out on to construction sites without any 36 basic occupational health and safety training. It was 37 community service. 38 39 Q. Over at page 352, we have an Annual Report for CCW for 40 the calendar year 2010? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Under the heading "Foundation House" - sorry, before 44 I go to that, it says it is listing the achievements of 45 CCW? 46 A. Yes. 47


1 Q. First of all, under "Foundation House" it says: 2 3 A partner in Foundation House ... 4 5 What does "a partner" mean? Was that actual money given to 6 the Sydney Rozelle Foundation House? 7 A. What we did is - you'll see that we were referring 8 people down here because we didn't - because it was 9 industry-based - construction industry-based and set up 10 rehabilitation centre, it meant - no disrespect to people 11 in the construction industry, but construction workers are 12 quite unique people and we have a culture inside of itself. 13 This Foundation House was set up and run primarily as a 14 place where construction workers would be sent. 15 16 Q. Could I just stop you there. Your role, so far as CCW 17 is concerned, was a referral service? 18 A. Yes, but what we did is we paid a certain amount of 19 money from here, from us to them, so we could get a 20 priority bed, if we needed it, for ACT people. 21 22 Q. But in terms of work done by CCW, that was referral? 23 A. Yes. There was - no, no, we referred. 24 25 Q. And a donation? 26 A. But what that involved, to give you an idea, is the 27 fieldworkers often would have to pick the person up, 28 because we sent them down by bus down here. So you'd go to 29 their house, you know, sometimes help them pack their bag 30 because they're in a pretty distraught state, you know, 31 they're a drug or alcohol dependent coming off addiction. 32 Sometimes it would be as practical as you would help pack 33 their bag for them, getting them in the car and driving 34 them to the bus stop - bus station and getting them on the 35 bus. So there was real practical stuff being done here 36 which you can't see. 37 38 Q. That would facilitate them getting to a bus in 39 Canberra -- 40 A. Yes, and then make sure - and then you'd co-ordinate 41 and the field officer would ring up Foundation House and 42 ensure that someone was going to meet them there; then 43 they'd ring them up and say, "Did they make it?" Then 44 they'd ring up and check on the person and then, when the 45 person came back, that field officer would often go out and 46 talk to them and see how they were going; try to integrate 47 them back into the workforce and see if they needed any


1 other support services. 2 3 Q. The next heading is "Counselling Support - Free and 4 Confidential": 5 6 [CCW] facilitate convenient and 7 confidential counselling support services 8 through a number of providers ... 9 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. "Facilitation" it's called but it is a referral; it is 13 not direct work -- 14 A. Yes, it's direct work because you go -- 15 16 Q. -- under this heading? 17 A. -- you actually go and talk to the person. You go 18 through - the fieldworkers go through the issues with them 19 and make an assessment with them what the best fit for them 20 is. Like, for example, there's one counsellor we use who 21 is an ex-preschool teacher, who is a psychologist, and some 22 people feel very comfortable in that situation with her and 23 other people don't. So, you know, you talk to them about 24 where they're going to go. Another is a gentleman we use, 25 and some people prefer to have a male counsellor. We 26 actually do sit down with people, the field officers do, 27 and do practical work about the best possible fit. That's 28 probably where we're different than a lot of other services 29 is they don't actually have a personal touch like that 30 where people care about what's going to happen to you. 31 32 Q. The next one is "Partnerships with industry"; again, 33 talking about developing partnerships. Over the page, 34 "Trauma Response"? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. "Debrief sessions and ongoing trauma counselling to 38 construction industry". The debrief sessions you've 39 discussed. Is the trauma counselling outsourced? 40 A. How it happens is you can't just go get a clinical 41 psychologist when there's been an accident. It's not 42 planned. Like when -- 43 44 Q. I am just conscious of the time. Just in terms of the 45 debrief sessions, presumably someone goes out to a site 46 where something awful has happened? 47 A. You see underneath there's a book. I know you want to


1 do it quickly but I want to tell the whole version of 2 things so we can get it in context. What happens is - it 3 is pretty serious when people get killed and, actually, 4 I don't want to brush over it, it is a very serious issue - 5 to me, anyway. So what happens is when there's an 6 accident, what happens is I developed a book with a 7 clinical psychologist, Carmel -- 8 9 Q. A book? 10 A. A trauma book. 11 12 Q. Right. 13 A. Okay. Me and her and a cartoonist did this book by 14 pictures because often people in a traumatic situation 15 can't read. There's a lot of people in our industry who 16 don't have English as a primary language and there's a lot 17 of people who can't read at all, for whatever reason, in 18 the construction industry. So we developed a book. We go 19 out when there's an accident. We do an initial - hand the 20 book out and have a meeting and say, "Is everyone okay? Is 21 anyone feeling bad?" So you do a general - to make sure 22 people are okay and they're not going to go and hurt 23 themselves or do anything. We explain to them that 24 drinking lots of alcohol or whatever is probably not a good 25 idea that night. So there's a basic intervention from the 26 fieldworkers. 27 28 Then what happens is they co-ordinate with the 29 clinical psychologist who specialises in trauma. Now, that 30 clinical psychologist we use also does work with returning 31 veterans from the Middle East, so she's specialised, that's 32 Carmel, and her practice actually does stuff for 33 Veterans Affairs, Vietnam vets as well. We arrange a time 34 and the case workers, the field officers, then go pick 35 Carmel up physically, take her to the site, take her in and 36 stay with her whilst she's in the place doing the debrief, 37 because you can't expect someone who is not from the 38 construction industry just to be walking on to the middle 39 of a building site. So the actual fieldworkers who are all 40 ex, or construction workers, are there as part of the link 41 between the actual workers who have been traumatised and 42 the services we're providing. Sorry. That's just how it 43 happens. 44 45 Q. This book, the trauma book, when was that developed? 46 What year? 47 A. I'm not sure. It's in the public - we can give you a


1 copy of it. It's got it in there. 2 3 Q. Is that still being distributed as required? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Then we have under the heading "Mental Health 7 Services", it says: 8 9 Client case management 10 11 CCW maintains a free confidential and 12 easily accessible mental health service for 13 its clients. 14 15 Is that directly provided by CCW or again is that referred 16 out? 17 A. Well, the actual - how it works is when the CCW CSI 18 workers go on site, one side of their shirt has got "CSI" 19 on it, the other side's got "CCW". So, whenever they're on 20 site, it is clearly identified on them, clearly on their 21 uniforms. What happens is in that situation, they're the 22 first contact point for people and they have been trained 23 in that basic stuff that I told you about. Often when you 24 talk about these things, my practical experience, I do a 25 talk on something when I used to do this. At that time you 26 used to have to cart a TV to your car. What would happen 27 is I'd always get the person who helped me to stay, but 28 there would always be a volunteer at the end of a training 29 course and as I was - and they'd be helping me cart the 30 stuff back. They were usually the one who said, "I've got 31 a problem, can you give me a hand?", or, "My wife's got a 32 problem" or, "My kid's got a problem". 33 34 So, the practicality of how it works is that they're 35 doing the training and they're talking about these issues 36 as CSI people, but all of a sudden, as you're carting the 37 gear back to the car, you know, you turn into a CCW person 38 because the person is asking you for help and, at that 39 point, that part kicks in in reality. This is what really 40 happens. So they go from being a trainer, literally in a 41 breath of two words of a conversation, to being a person as 42 a field officer to assist people. 43 44 Q. Then we have under "Service Provider - Free 45 assessment, counselling and referral", on the second line 46 of that -- 47 A. Sorry, where's that one?


1 2 Q. The next one down. 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. Under the second line of that paragraph it says: 6 7 ... [CCW] acts as the conduit ... 8 9 A. Yes. Correct. 10 11 Q. And then under "Building and Construction Industry - 12 Onsite": 13 14 Often when building and construction 15 industry members require counselling 16 services or advice, it is difficult for 17 them to make appointments. 18 19 A. That's what I was talking about earlier, yes. 20 21 Q. So you have covered that? 22 A. Yes, I've covered that. 23 24 Q. But ultimately, though, the long sessions are provided 25 by experts? 26 A. Yes, professionals. And if we were to do that, we 27 would have to employ clinical psychologists which would 28 cost us probably 150 grand. 29 30 Q. Which you've not done and don't do? 31 A. No, we don't. No. 32 33 Q. Then we've got "Construction Apprentices"? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. I think we've covered that up to a point. Again, it 37 is a referral service, is it? 38 A. Sorry? 39 40 Q. It says under the heading "Construction Apprentices", 41 second paragraph: 42 43 This includes referral for financial 44 advice, general counselling services ... 45 46 A. But for that to happen, you've got to go and talk to 47 them first. There's an intake form. The workers have an


1 intake form. So you just can't - someone doesn't generally 2 ring up or come forward and say, "I've got X, Y and Z". 3 You've got to go and sit down with them and have a bit of a 4 conversation, and then you can work out what the best 5 treatment referral would be. 6 7 Q. Then we've got "Relationship Counselling". It says: 8 9 ... offers free relationship and support 10 counselling services ... 11 12 But, again, whilst the initial contact and assessment is 13 made by CCW, it's on-referred? 14 A. That's correct, yes. 15 16 Q. "Safe sex", et cetera. 17 A. Mmm-hmm. 18 19 Q. Various provisions are made to people and up-to-date 20 and accurate information, so that's done directly, is it, 21 that information and items? 22 A. I'm not sure. 23 24 Q. "Driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol". A 25 publication has been -- 26 A. I'm sorry, I think you're back on that. I think CSI, 27 the CSI/workers do do that in their roles when they're - 28 it's not like one day - it sort of blends over, yes. So, 29 yes, sorry. 30 31 Q. Under the "Driving under the influence of drugs or 32 alcohol", a pamphlet has been developed, has it? 33 A. That was a booklet. We got a grant from the NRMA Road 34 Safety Trust in the ACT because it was - I'm actually not 35 100 per cent right, but I believe because it was an 36 exclusive - only one insurer for third party in cars, that 37 part of that deal was they had to set up a trust and you 38 could make submissions about important issues. One of the 39 big things our members do occasionally is go DUI a lot. 40 So, we were getting more and more people coming forward for 41 court help around that, for example, because they'd gone 42 DUI and they were looking for assistance around - so we 43 thought we'd try to put a primary intervention in place and 44 do a little booklet to try to explain to them not how to go 45 DUI or drug driving. 46 47 Q. Then we've got "Drink Water First" Campaign?


1 A. That was a campaign that we went and got money from 2 the local - we submitted to the local health promotion 3 agency. You put in applications. Like everybody - all the 4 different people put in applications and one thing that we 5 thought is a good idea, instead of working very hard in a 6 physically demanding job in the construction industry on a 7 hot day is to walk off and, you know, have six or seven 8 schooners to quench your thirst, what we're trying to tell 9 people is have some water to try to reduce their alcohol 10 consumption and be a little bit more responsible. Again, 11 that was also a primary intervention, so we are not dealing 12 with them becoming serious alcoholics or something. 13 14 Q. Then we have at page 356 numbers of various services 15 that have been provided? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Have you seen that before? 19 A. No. I might have, sorry. I might have. I can't 20 recall. 21 22 Q. Who do you understand would have said that? 23 A. I might have seen it, yes. 24 25 Q. Would that be Mr Jennings? 26 A. It looks like it has been in a board report, so 27 I would have seen it. I can't directly recall this, but 28 I - yes, I would have seen this, yes. 29 30 Q. Then we have the following year -- 31 A. Is that the next tab? 32 33 Q. The following tab, January to June 2011? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. And we've got similar items in the minutes. 37 A. Sorry, which page are we? 38 39 Q. I'll just go through them now. 40 A. Just go through them, right. 41 42 Q. Could we go through to page 375. 43 A. Sorry, which one is that? 44 45 Q. Page 375. 46 A. Is that on 29, is it? 47


1 Q. That's under tab 29. 2 A. Under tab 29. Sorry. And it was 375? 3 4 Q. Yes. Then we have as a result -- 5 A. I'm not there yet, sorry. 6 7 Q. Halfway down the page, "Best Practice Services": 8 9 CCW awareness tool box talks. 10 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. At the second sentence in, it says: 14 15 As a result of this meeting we currently 16 now have one apprentice utilising the 17 emergency accommodation at Havlock House. 18 19 So that was the early emergency accommodation, do you 20 recall that? 21 A. Yes. Yes. 22 23 Q. I think it changed eventually to one of the motels or 24 hotels? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. That was associated with one of the Tradies -- 28 A. They're connected, the two clubs, yes, mainly because 29 - without being disrespectful to Havlock House, 30 Havlock House is a mixed use hostel facility that has a lot 31 of different people with different issues down there. The 32 apprentices found it quite confronting. I don't want to 33 sort of go too much into it. 34 35 Q. Could we go to page 378, still that tab. 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. The last sentence, or last paragraph, it appears that 39 the issue of getting CETW Limited as a member of CCW was 40 being contemplated; do you see that? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Why was that being discussed? 44 A. I can't recall that, sorry. 45 46 Q. Would Mr Jennings, do you believe, have more 47 information about that issue?


1 A. Maybe. 2 3 Q. Then we've got a 2012 Budget Analysis prepared by 4 Mr Jennings at pages 379 to 380? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Then we go over to tab 30. In particular, at 8 page 387 -- 9 A. Sorry. Yes. 10 11 Q. -- do you see there "Employment of social work/health 12 professionals: 13 14 As a result of the partnership ... 15 16 A. Where is that, sorry? Yes, up the top, yes. 17 18 Q. It says: 19 20 As a result of the partnership being signed 21 in February 2012 with Ozhelp Foundation, 22 CCW no longer have the requirement to 23 employ a social works/health professional. 24 As part of the agreement held with Ozhelp, 25 CCW are now referring all welfare cases to 26 Ozhelp for assistance. 27 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. So, prior to that, what was the situation? 31 A. I think that was using myself and Shayne, and then we 32 were trying to case manage it. The staff were trying to 33 case manage it, and it just got too hard and OzHelp has - 34 OzHelp was a Suicide Prevention Program for the 35 construction industry and they have a 24-hour Help Line in 36 place. They have full-time counsellors there. So, we 37 could do a partnership with them; we could utilise a lot of 38 the infrastructure without having to repeat it ourselves or 39 duplicate it. 40 41 Q. Then at page 389, right at the bottom of page 389, 42 there's this discussion again of CETW Limited being 43 admitted as a member, it would appear. 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. I don't know that that occurred, and you can't shed 47 any light on why that was being discussed?


1 A. No, sorry. 2 3 Q. Could you now turn to tab 31, please, and page 395. 4 Again, we've got that same issue, the second dot point, a 5 motion being suggested by Mr Brennan to have CETW Limited 6 admitted as a member in accordance with voting as per the 7 constitution. It seems to have been discussed a number of 8 times? 9 A. Yes, and I honestly can't remember it, I'm sorry. 10 11 Q. Then page 398, halfway down the page, "EBA Clause - 12 Donations to CCW": 13 14 New Enterprise Bargaining Agreements with 15 the CFMEU will contain a clause that 16 employees allow their employer to donate $1 17 per week from their ACIRT contributions. 18 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Are you content with that wording as reflecting what 22 was discussed? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Yes? 26 A. Basically. 27 28 Q. This being between April and July 2012? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. How do you know in advance whether or not an 32 enterprise bargaining agreement will contain a clause or 33 not? 34 A. Well, it would be up for negotiation in the clause. 35 36 Q. That's right, isn't it? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. You didn't say that when I asked you if you were 40 content with that wording? 41 A. Sorry, you got me on that one. 42 43 Q. Well, is it the case that your understanding, prior to 44 me asking you that question, is that there was very little 45 negotiation, if any, as to whether or not a clause in 46 relation to CCW would be included in an EBA? 47 A. I don't do the EBAs. I don't negotiate them.


1 2 Q. Can we go over to tab 32, in particular, to page 410. 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. There's the staffing topic towards the top of the 6 page: 7 8 John Dunmore has resigned ... and will stay 9 on ... 10 11 I think we saw this before. 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Mr Arnold, a bricklayer by trade, et cetera, so we've 15 seen that information before? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Then "EBA Clause - Donations to CCW": 19 20 New enterprise Bargaining Agreements with 21 the CFMEU now contain a clause that 22 employees allow their employer to donate $1 23 per week ... 24 25 Et cetera. Again, how can it be said that those agreements 26 now contain a clause? Shouldn't they be subject to 27 negotiation? 28 A. Well, they are, because some agreements don't have the 29 clause. 30 31 Q. How many agreements, to your knowledge, don't contain 32 the CCW $1 a week clause? 33 A. There's one only that really sticks in my mind. 34 35 Q. Who is that with? 36 A. It is a company called Canberra Contractors, and the 37 reason why it sticks in my mind is because a delegate of 38 ours was working for them and he was run over by a grader 39 and killed. It was a very bad accident, and CCW did a lot 40 of work with his family, which is what we're here to do, 41 and I was extremely disappointed with the workers that they 42 didn't vote for it, because I thought - they directly had 43 seen the benefits of what CCW did, and I was extremely 44 disappointed. That's the one that sticks out in my mind, 45 but could - I don't know how many others. 46 47 Q. Were you there during the voting in relation to that


1 EBA or were you just informed of it? 2 A. No, I went out. Actually, that was one of the few 3 times I went out because I wanted to talk to the workers 4 about it because I was that - I was that concerned that 5 they weren't going to support it and the good work that it 6 does, but, in the end, they voted and they didn't have it - 7 they don't have it. 8 9 Q. Then page 420, behind tab 33, we have a similar type 10 of paragraph in relation to -- 11 A. Sorry, what page is this? Sorry. 12 13 Q. Page 420. 14 A. Yes, okay. 15 16 Q. If one reads both of those clauses back on pages 410 17 and 420, there's an evolving issue, I think you would 18 agree, of how difficult it was to collect the $1 per week. 19 Do you recall that? 20 A. Yes. Looking at it, realistically, even though money 21 for a good cause is always good, the amount of time, effort 22 and grief it takes to collect the money is not - in money 23 terms, it's different for what it actually - the purpose of 24 it, the altruistic purpose of it, but the actual time and 25 effort to collect that dollar does not, in real terms, come 26 anywhere near what we're collecting. It costs us a lot 27 more. In simple terms, it's costing us a lot more to chase 28 it up than the actual benefits they were getting from it. 29 30 Q. That improved over time, did it not? 31 A. No, not really, unfortunately. A little bit, but not 32 really. It is still very bad now. 33 34 Q. For example, go to the next tab, if you'd be kind 35 enough, tab 34, page 430. 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. In the middle of the page, above the heading 39 "Best Practice Services", that paragraph in relation to 40 this issue: 41 42 The initial response rate from companies 43 was very poor but contributions have been 44 on the rise. 45 46 A. It's still very bad but, and that's taken us a -- 47


1 Q. It continues: 2 3 ... Union assistance was needed to remind 4 companies of their obligations. 5 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. And then it says: 9 10 CCW have noticed most companies have set 11 automatic systems up to ensure reports and 12 payments are made up in a timely manner. 13 14 Once that's set up, that should solve the problem, 15 shouldn't it? 16 A. It's still not very good, unfortunately. It's 17 something we have to work on. 18 19 Q. That same point is behind the next tab. 20 A. What page is that on, sorry? 21 22 Q. At page 435; do you see that? 23 A. I'm sorry, I'll just get there. Yes. 24 25 Q. It is the second last major dot point. 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. There the "UNION" is in capital letters? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. How did the Union go about reminding them of their 32 obligations, do you know? 33 A. Basically, what we - the point that I was making - 34 I wasn't actually doing it, but the point I was making to 35 the other officers of the Union was to explain to the 36 employer that it's not their money, it's the employees' 37 money, they've made a decision to donate this, so they 38 shouldn't be withholding it, they should co-operate, 39 because it is not the employer's money, it is the 40 employee's money, and that was the point we were making to 41 them. 42 43 Q. Behind tab 45, page 439, there's a further record in 44 relation to this issue. 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. It says:


1 2 Any new Enterprise Bargaining Agreements 3 with the CFMEU now contain a clause that 4 employees allow their employer to donate $1 5 per week ... 6 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. So that rather indicates it's not particularly 10 negotiated, that wording, would you agree? 11 A. I didn't write the minutes, but it's not a reflection 12 of what happens. 13 14 Q. It goes on in the second paragraph: 15 16 The initial response rate from companies 17 was very poor but contributions have been 18 on the rise. 814 employees from 46 19 companies are currently contributing at the 20 $1 per week per employee. CCW are noticing 21 most companies have set automatic systems 22 up to ensure reports and payments are made 23 in a timely manner. A total of $42,661.32 24 has been contributed up to the end of 25 September 2013. 26 27 That would seem to be an improving situation, would you 28 agree? 29 A. Oh, it's only very slightly improving. It's quite 30 poor and, honestly, I would be - discussions will be about 31 whether we continue with it in the new agreement because 32 it's just not - it's draining too many resources to get the 33 end outcome. I think it is good sometimes, this is my 34 personal opinion, for people to donate to something good, 35 I think it is good for them, but, in the end, if it is 36 costing more money and more heartache than what it is to 37 benefit, I don't think it is useful. So, honestly, I don't 38 know how - anyway, sorry. It's quite frustrating. 39 40 Q. Then we go over to tab 36, particularly to page 444. 41 We're now up to the 2013 year, a meeting on 18 November, 42 and there's two new directors by this time, Mr Abraham and 43 Mr Carrick? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. There's also a whole lot of other people attending. 47 Do you know why that's the case?


1 A. Sorry? Attending? 2 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. There's me, the two other directors, the company 5 Secretary, the CEO and the CFO. 6 7 Q. Towards the bottom of the page "Finance and 8 Administration", it says: 9 10 CCW has no full time staff. All staffing 11 resources are required from CSI, including 12 two welfare officers. 13 14 CCW has now relocated to 3 Rosevear Place 15 Dickson. 16 17 A. Mmm-hmm. 18 19 Q. Over at 445, the last heading "2014 Budget": 20 21 The CEO and Glenn Carlos presented the 22 draft CCW Budget for 2014. It was noted 23 that the budgeted income continues to rely 24 heavily on the donations from the CTUC, 25 together with revenue associated with CFMEU 26 relationships. 27 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Do you believe, sir, that the revenue from CFMEU 31 relationships was properly explained to those people who 32 were deciding whether or not to enter into enterprise 33 bargaining agreements? 34 A. I don't negotiate the EBAs. 35 36 Q. Then on page 449, we've got more staffing information. 37 A. Yes. Sorry, I'm getting there. Yes. 38 39 Q. It says there: 40 41 Janice Brennan commenced as a casual 42 employee to assist Jess with the office 43 while Diane was having surgery and has 44 continued to assist in the office and help 45 with the back log of data entry. 46 47 That sounds like a purely administrative job; is that


1 right? 2 A. Yes, that's to do with the - at that time the Asbestos 3 Card came on, because everyone in the industry had to be 4 trained really quickly. 5 6 Q. Then: 7 8 Hannah Roberts was hired as a casual 9 administration officer to assist Glenn but 10 has since left to study overseas. This 11 position will not be re-filled. 12 13 Glenn Carlos will be retiring as of 2nd 14 September. At the moment this position 15 will not be refilled. 16 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. So that accords with your understanding? 20 A. Oh, to the best of my recollection, yes. 21 22 Q. Could we go to the next tab, tab 37, page 456. 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. "EBAs" is the first heading under the heading 26 "Diversification": 27 28 EBAs are currently behind in income, second 29 half of the year will need to be caught up 30 on to recover outstanding amounts. 31 32 What does that mean to your understanding? 33 A. Well, that had been that the commitment has been made 34 and the employers aren't remitting the donation on behalf 35 of the employees. 36 37 Q. Then under "Community", the third heading down, 38 "Emergency Accommodation", it says: 39 40 CCW have found it difficult to house 41 apprentices or construction workers in the 42 Havlock Housing accommodation. There is no 43 big demand for temporary accommodation. 44 45 Instead of Havlock House, CCW will pay for a room at the 46 Quality Hotel in Dickson. 47 A. Yes.


1 2 Q. That's associated with one of the trade union clubs; 3 is that right? 4 A. There's two. There's a Quality Hotel at Woden and 5 there's a Quality Hotel at Dickson. 6 7 Q. Right. Page 460, this is in relation to staffing, 8 towards the top of the page: 9 10 Glenn Carlos has retired as the CFO. CCW 11 will be using the outsourced finance team 12 at the Tradies in Dickson to look after the 13 accounts. 14 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Do you recall that being discussed? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. And then towards the bottom of the page: 21 22 [CCW] pay a yearly fee of $10,000 for a 23 fully furnished one bedroom room with 24 live-in facilities for emergency 25 accommodation ... 26 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. That was as a standing room, was it? 30 A. Well, you had to because you couldn't - because the 31 motel can book out, you'd have to lock one away in case - 32 you don't know when someone is going to call up and need a 33 room. 34 35 Q. Page 463, the last page in the volume, we've got "2015 36 CCW Budget": 37 38 Staffing Management Fees to CSI. 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. $236,000 -- 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. -- out of a total expense of $494,000. Given that the 45 accounts have been outsourced to the finance team at the 46 Tradies in Dickson, why is the management fee still so 47 high, do you know?


1 A. Well, remember that - we've just talked about how 2 difficult it was getting money and they were chasing it. 3 They're still doing that. That was part of the 4 administration. That's the biggest thing that chews up the 5 time. That's what I'm saying, we're really looking at the 6 value of it because it chews up so much time trying to get 7 the compliance, and we've never breached anyone in the 8 agreement, which we have a legal right to breach these 9 people for not doing the agreement, but that's not the idea 10 behind it. The idea was an agreement that was reached with 11 the employees of these companies that they wanted to 12 contribute to something that did good work in the 13 construction industry. 14 15 The easiest way for us to fix it would be to breach 16 them under the Fair Work Act for failing to comply with the 17 agreement, but we don't do that because that's not what 18 this is about. It's about trying to get help - money in so 19 we can help people. 20 21 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time? 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The hearing will resume at 10am 24 tomorrow. 25 26 AT 4.03PM THE HEARING WAS ADJOURNED TO WEDNESDAY, 5 AUGUST 27 2015 AT 10AM 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47


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