Debra Ruh: Hello everyone. This is Debra Ruh and you are watching or listening to Human Potential at Work. I am the CEO of Ruh Global and we are proud to be market influencers and brand ambassadors for the community of people with disabilities and the aging market. Today, my guest is someone that I have admired for many many many years and she is a global presence and shown leadership all over the world and she’s very instrumental in getting the Americans with disabilities act and I can go on and on and on but I’m going to introduce Judy Heumann today and welcome to the program Judy.

Judy Heumann: Nice to be with you Debra.

Debra: It’s very exciting. I’ve had so many guests on the program but I just admire your work so much. And I remember the first time we met and I was teasing you before we started the show but I know there’s no way that you’re going to remember this but, I had decided to get in the field in 2001 and I had been invited to a meeting in Washington DC. I was so excited and it happened to be, I remember very well, September 10 2001. And I listened to you speak and there were some other speakers and I listened to all… you know, a little bit of your bio, what you’ve done and I’m just was so star struck by you. And I remember meeting you and you’re very gracious and you welcomed all of us and you came and individually spoke to me at one point. And I don’t even remember what the conference was.

It was a one day conference but I remember going back to my hotel room and thinking, “wow! I met Judy Heumann. This is the most amazing place.” I was so excited. The next morning of course was September 11, 2001 where you know, 911 certainly lives on all of our memories in the United States. But on that particular day I thought, “Boy. I don’t want to be in Washington anymore. I’d rather be any place except New York or maybe on a plane that day.” But I just was on top of the world after listening to you speak and hearing all the other speakers. But you were the keynote speakers on that. So, a lot of water has passed under that bridge since then but I really really admire your work.

So, Judy, for anyone that might not really understand the deft of your work, will you tell us a little bit about who you are and some of the amazing things that you’ve accomplished? There are so many.

Judy: Thank you. So, I was just 71 years old so I have a lot of the years that I’ve been working. And I think, the way to summarise who I am is; I had polio in 1949 when there were no laws in the United States so quite frankly really in any parts of the world that looked in disability from the civil rights or human rights perspective. So, I, like millions of other people in the US and around the world was experiencing discrimination that was not yet being called discrimination. So, I didn’t get to go to school until I was in the middle of the fourth grade and then I was only in segregated classes with very low expectations about what myself and my colleagues and school were going to be able to do.

My parents like their self and many other parents have had to become advocates even though that might have not been who you were prior to having a child or a family member with the disability. So, my mom and my dad, my mother in particular because my dad had a small butcher shop. I grew up in Brooklyn New York and my mother organized with other moms to basically for supportive education in New York City to make some of the high schools accessible. Because what was supposed to happen otherwise is students that couldn’t walk up and down stairs went back on to home instruction.

So, I was able to go to a regular high school not in my neighbourhood and I would say that over the course of my life, I’ve been very influenced by the ability to work with other disabled individuals to really define what we were seeing and continue to see as discrimination and moving from feeling disempowered to feeling empowered. So, work that’s gone on over the last yes, 60 70 years has substantially been not because of any one person but because of the thousands of people who gradually have recognize that discrimination against one is discrimination against all.

I have to say that we’re still very much having to struggle with other people including disabled people recognizing discrimination and how it impact people individually. I think one of the important things that’s happened over my life time is we moved away from looking… or many of us have moved away from looking at disability as the label over diagnosis. So, when I said I had polio, that to me is relevant because there are times when I need to be seeing health care professionals who are knowledgeable about polio but at the end of the day, the reason we were able to get laws for section 504 in our people with disabilities act, the individuals with disabilities education act and on and on is we put aside the label of cerebral palsy or intellectual disability or polio or muscular dystrophy or diabetes or cancer or whatever it is and we said, what is some of the defining issues that we want to look at? And the defining issues are discrimination in employment, discrimination in healthcare, discrimination in picking a field.

So, that’s been a lot of work and I think, all of us would agree that we’d made progress but we’re not where we are needing to be yet. And I think one of the other important things that’s gone on over the years both in the United States to now with the convention on the rights of persons with disabilities is also really looking at the breath of who we are as disabled people. And of course, a significant number of people are those with invisible disabilities who maybe don’t see themselves as having a disability.

I guess one of the critical issues that we’ve also been looking at and you also Debra is that we need to recognize that disability is a normal part of life and that while our disabilities may impact the way we do certain things all the time or some of the time, at the end of the day, we’re all able to make contributions. And when you can effectively address discrimination against those of us with the disabilities or put in place universally designed society, then it allows everyone to come together.

So, I’ve been very fortunate over the years. I came… excuse me, I started as a teacher after I received the board of education to get my teaching

credential because I was denied my licence because I couldn’t walk. Help set up a group called disabled in action. Moved to California. I got my graduate degree at Berkeley. Work with the center for independent living both on the board and then on staff for 27 years. I was a founder of the World Institute on Disability with Ed Roberts who some people may know.

Debra: I do.

Judy: Some people call him the father of the independent living movement and me the mother of the independent living movement. I kind of joke will you say now the grandmother. And then I was fortunate to work in the Clinton administration and the Obama administration and I work with the World Bank. So… and I’ve served at a lot of different boards. So, I feel really very fortunate that I’ve got many friends in the United States and I’ve travel very broadly internationally. And the ability to really share our experiences and look in how we can support each other to basically over the next years end discrimination and poverty in particular against those of us with disabilities.

Debra: Yes. As I said, she’s quite a background and that’s just really a little thumbnail of what she’s done and I am proud to be on the board of directors of WID that you started. So, I’ve been sort of following you around. I guess sort of stalking you over the years. I know that you’ve been very… you’ve done a lot of work with United Nations and you worked in our State department which… you know, I tracked a lot of the work that you’re doing at the State department. You’re working now with the Ford foundation.

There’s just so much… your career has been very inspiring to me Judy and I have never looked at you and thought, “that poor…” it’s more of the opposite. Like, “wow! How does she accomplish them? It’s amazing! I want to follow in her footsteps.”

So, I think… in your work, you’re right about my work. My work has always been, “what does it mean to be human?” and I remember when I first started getting in the field, I had people say to me, “well, you don’t

have a disability. You can’t get up there and speak for our community.” And my first thought was, “how do you know I don’t have a disability?” and number two, “what do you mean? Why can’t I say, ‘this is wrong?’” I think we all need to stand up and say that’s wrong.

I also want to throw a question at you that I know is an unfair question but I’m going to do it anyway. But, the women’s movement. I remember a few years ago, I was… maybe seven or eight years ago, my son’s girlfriend at the time, she’s now his fiancée said to me, you know, my girl friends, they’re like… they’re not thinking about women’s issues or any of this and companies seem to think we’re done.

We got all the women’s issues nailed and I remember her talking to me about it and I thought, at the moment, you know I thought, “Well, you know we’ve come so far as women.” Then of course, the world has found a part and showed as how much work we have to do with women’s issues. And I can’t help but compare that with what we’ve done here with the disability field and also other diversity fields. And it’s such a shame that we take a look at a person or there is a person and we decide you’re not valuable because you’re a woman or you’re disabled or you’re both or you’re from a different country or you love the wrong person or you worship the wrong god or you don’t believe…

There are so many ways that we can label and put each other in boxes and say, “you’re inferior to me.” And I just think the world shouldn’t work that way. So I know I threw a lot at you but I know that you’ve been fighting all of these different discriminations in your career all over the world Judy. So, I was wondering if you won’t mind addressing some of that.

Judy: So, it’s kind of interesting. NPR has a program on the radio at least where we are called “1A”. Yesterday December 27, they had a piece on 1A about women; was 2018 Been Year of the Woman? And they had three or four different people who were speaking, debating whether it was or it wasn’t the year of the woman and giving all kinds of examples of this

woman with was elect in was the first x to be elected by congress and there were a lot of first for women who were elected to congress and the word disability never came up.

And so, I think it really… in response to your question, disability in the women’s movement is not off the plate but it is at best edge of the plate. When people are reminded that disabled women are a part of the group, then something will be done but like when the “Me Too” movement was first being launched, disability was not mentioned. And then I think it was Rebecca Cokley or some other women that reached out and said, “Hey. What’s going on?” but I think it speaks to the fact that our movement is a very…

We’re a unique movement because we are not a woman of the same color, of the same religion, of the same disability so just getting us together to be able to discuss what are some of the unique issues that we as disabled women face. If you don’t identify as having a disability, then that is as I said a few minutes ago, a major issue. So, really, it’s I think very important that the women’s movement does really look at embracing disabled women as a part of the movement.

You know, we’re seeing some of this more in social media where some of the famous social media people, younger people are coming out acknowledging that they may have various invisible psycho social disabilities. That I think is always great because things like depression and anxiety and bipolar etc. there’s huge number of people who have those types of disabilities. And if we can own the word disability and recognize that it is not negative, in my view, nondisabled people telling us what words we should or shouldn’t use is something that we really need to push back against.

Debra: I agree.

Judy: And I think the convention on the rights of persons with disabilities as an example which some of your audience may want to look at, go to the

web. Go to the internet and look up the convention on the rights of persons with disabilities. About a hundred and 75 or more countries have ratified that treaty. Now, the US unfortunately not one of them. But you can see that CRPD really embodies a lot of what our Americans with disabilities act is. And that ultimately the intent of the CRPD is to really elevate the status of disabled people around the world on a country by country level with governments once they ratify are committing to not only developing legislation and implementing legislation in a very broad area and ultimately being able to look down the road at an increasing strong disability rights movement.

I think you know, one of the other very important components of our movement is we’re intergenerational. We’re across everything and in creating a more humane world, I think the disability community understands that many disabilities are caused by violence, by war, by rape, on and on and we need to be the people that are speaking out against violence because of what it does not only to us as individuals but to our societies.

Debra: Yes. Well said. Well said Judy. And I find… a few things you said, how do we get people to embrace first of all, who they are? And also, sometimes, I think it’s wonderful but I worry a little bit and I… and I believe that when I do start worrying this particular thing, I like to challenge my brain a little bit because I see people that will…

Once again, I was told when I first moved into the space wanting to make a difference, becoming… and I was an employer. Technology employer of many people with disabilities and talented talented people but some of them are and some of them aren’t so I let them go because they were people. Right? But the thing that I always thought was interesting as I walk that path was people would say… well, I do have a disability. I have dyslexia. And so, other people would say, “dyslexia. Well, that’s not a real disability.”

If you don’t have… if you’re not blind or you’re not… you know, if you’re not this and… and then my own family with my daughter with disability she was born with Down syndrome. There were times when she wouldn’t get invited to disability parties because she wasn’t disabled enough or she was too disabled or… and so, I thought, “wow. So we didn’t make the disability cut with her either.” So, it’s a complicated community and these are things…

Judy: And I think… I think one of the issue is our society is in picking order. And in the disability community, I think the reality is, people are wanting to be accepted in the community over all…

Debra: Right.

Judy: In a wider society. Disability is something that most people don’t have it birth. Your daughter having Down syndrome obviously, she’s had her disability from birth. But I didn’t get my disability until I was 18 months old and you know, when you look at the data, you’ll see that this area is where incidents rates of disability increase like in physical disabilities or spinal cord injuries between like 16 and 24 and then, as people age and on and on and on. So, when one doesn’t feel secure in who you are as a person and your place in society, I think what happens sometimes is people tend not to want to be with people that they feel are alienated even further than they are.

Debra: Right.

Judy: That I think is complex and not acceptable but nonetheless, I think it’s one of the unique issues that I was saying a little bit ago. One of the unique issues about how we can bring so many different things to the table. I believe that you know, over my life time, one of the things that’s changed is that disabled with down syndrome are not perceived of the way they are in the 1960s. I mean, if we go back historically, most people with Down syndrome wound up in institutions.

Debra: Right. Right.

Judy: And today, that’s no longer true. And I would frequently when I was working in the Clinton administration, I’ve given a lot of speeches to educational association etc. would say you know, it’s not that any of these children with down syndrome have changed, the only thing that’s

changed is they’re now in the community with their families. We have higher expectations than we did in the 1960s and low and behold, when you have higher expectations, people achieve to a higher level.

And I remember when I was working as an assistant secretary in education, I had a meeting with an organization called, I think it’s called “Up Down Syndrome” and it was the self-advocacy part of the Down syndrome association. It was absolutely one of the best meetings I’ve ever had and I had hundreds of meetings. They were so well organized. The agenda was so together and everyone around the table had Down syndrome. And what was very kind of unique that day is I got a call from the White House and I need to say I did not get a lot of calls through the White House.

I got a call from the White House since there was a family, a mother, father and a child with down syndrome that were over in the White House and they wanted to come and meet me. And I said, “Oh. You got to get them over here right away because I’ve got this amazing meeting going on with adults with Down syndrome.” And they came over and I don’t know whatever happened but I am absolutely sure that it was so important for those parents with a child who was like a year or something to meet all these adults who had Down syndrome. One of them was an actor and people were doing all kinds of different things. Another person has written a book and…

So, I think really the theme that I’m talking about today is our need to be able to learn about who we are and to be respectful. Not just those of us who have disabilities but across the board because I think on the other hand you also see in the Black Lives Matter movement. You know, one of the issues going on. The number of people of color who are killed in situations where police are killing people with intellectual disabilities or psycho social disabilities not being trained on how to address people who don’t respond typically. When you look at the fact that 60 to 70 percent of people in juvenile facilities have disabilities, many many of them with invisible disabilities and the same with adults with disabilities. You can

see that poverty also is a link not only to disability but to the adverse effects that poverty has on people.

So, I think at the end of the day it’s learning who we are. Really working within the non-disability community to help people understand that their attitudes against disabled people; their discriminatory attitudes in many cases but also lack of exposures. So, one thing I’ve been doing over the last more than a year with the Ford foundation is working on a paper that’s dealing in media and looking at representation of disabled people in the media and looking at other minority groups in the United States and how they advance in the media compared to disabled groups. And we had a convening in June of this year, 2018 and there are about 26 people including someone from the BBC and someone from channel four of Great Britain talking about what they’ve been doing there. So far ahead of us Debra.

Debra: They are. I love their work. I love their work. Both of BBC and channel four.

Judy: Exactly.

Debra: Gosh.

Judy: And I think across the board now because they have a law and diversity in media.

Debra: Yes.

Judy: Which we don’t have.

Debra: Right.

Judy: And a friend of mine is over in England right now and we’re going to be posting something on the Heumann Perspective that she was saying that disabled people are a part of everything.

Debra: Yes.

Judy: Ads on TV, the news, shows, on and on.

Debra: Right.

Judy: Which doesn’t happen here.

Debra: Right.

Judy: So, I think another big big issue is the failure of media in the United States to be integrating disabled people with all types of disabilities, all racial background, sexual orientation etc. because it’s the media that really exposes people. And the discrimination and negative views towards disable people are basically been around since the beginning of time that getting rid of this is not going to be easy but we have to really acknowledge that it exist. We have to really be together working on ending it.

Debra: I agree. And I do a lot of work in the UK and in Europe but especially the UK and I’ve actually tried to get some of the US, pretty major US groups to get more involved in the global conversations. I’ve worked with the International Labor organization, the Global Business Disability Network and they came to me a few years ago and they said, “Debra, the US corporations aren’t really in these global conversations.” And so, we put on a couple events you spoke at the first one Judy and they’re… you know, they don’t really know what they’re doing. Meaning the corporations but they want to do the right thing. I mean, not all of them but I think there is… I think there’s a tipping point happening where the brands are understanding you need to get more engaged and I wrote a book “Inclusion Branding” last year and it was talking to the brands about we are a really really large community…

Judy: Yes.

Debra: Yes, we’re not perfect, we’re not all talking in the same voice yet but we are here and you need to tell us what you’re doing to include us so we can support your brand and it just was translated into Arabic and Spanish which once again…

Judy: Great.

Debra: There are a lot of languages we speak in the world and so we all have to work together to do this.

Judy: Right.

Debra: But I agree with you that what I’ve seen with the media… and in the book, I gave examples. I gave a lot of examples of the shows that channel four in the UK has been doing and BBC; I love BBC. I watch BBC myself primarily as my news media only because I feel I get a more balance world view of what is actually happening. Are we really all going to die in the US or maybe everything… maybe everything’s going to be okay. But I just think all these moving parts are so important and I had some of my friends…

It’s interesting because I am one of those people all over social media and I was named as one of the top 50 digital influencers in Europe. 50 Europeans and I’m like well…

Judy: Congratulations.

Debra: Thank you.

Judy: And that’s European.

Debra: But I live in the United States in Virginia. Okay. But only because I was talking so much about what was happening but I was doing it because those are things that we need to be doing here in the US and throughout the world. So I think it’s very important that we bee speaking at this from a global and national perspective which is why I’ve always really admired the work you’re doing because you’ve always been bridging those. And I think we can learn from each other instead of assuming which… I had some of the US groups saying, “Well, we don’t need to join those conversations. Instead, we’ll come over and we’ll tell them everything we know.”

Judy: Yes.

Debra: And it’s like, okay. Okay. We actually believe it or not could learn from what other people are doing and bring it back and make some… but there’s… recently, Caroline Casey made an announcement about the valuable project and I was one of the organizations that supported her and unfortunately, I think I was the only US organization that was a part of it even though there were multiple US organizations asked much bigger than me. I’m a little tiny tiny baby communications company that

believes that the world works better when we all get to be included and we all get to really own who we are as individuals.

So there’s a lot of work to do and what I would ask now, I know that I’m nearing the end of the interview and I could probably talk to you for days and days and days on all these topics. But a few things, I want to make sure that people know about your work. I know you have your own program so we want to support your program. We want you to guide us on where do we go next Judy. What do we do? How do we… you know, as the mother of the movement, guide us Judy. Guide us. how do we really help make sure that that one year old with down syndrome… and I’ll throw another hard thing and that isn’t a hard question anyway but, what do we do when we still have people that say you know people like my daughter born with down syndrome you know doesn’t really deserve to live. Let’s go ahead and abort her and try again as Richard Dawkins said. And if I didn’t abort her and try again for a better baby, I was a burden to the society. My family shame on me I was a burden to the society.

As you can imagine, I totally disagree with that. I think my daughter adds great beauty to the world and she has changed my life and many other people’s lives so I disagree that she didn’t deserved to be born. I think that she adds a lot of value and shows us what it really means to be human. So, over to you.

Judy: Alright. So let’s see. First, I’m going to plug for my program. It’s called the Heumann Perspective. H-E-U-M-A-N-N perspective. When you come on… we’re reconstructing our website so you should come on to either through Youtube or Facebook.

Debra: Okay.

Judy: And we have about 55 interviews that we have up and we post regularly during the week. So, we’d appreciate people coming and looking at it and we’ll post this and so we can be sharing.

So, on the broader issues that you’ve been raising; kind of what’s next. I think we’ve moved in the disability community to a different space than when I was growing up obviously. When I was growing up, because there were no laws, I kind of define the work that I was doing with friends as going into a candy store and kind of picking any piece of candy that you wanted and being able to work on that because we needed to look at inclusive education. How do you make a bus accessible. What did it mean for the train to be accessible? What did it mean to have accommodations for someone at work on and on.

So, we’ve had to begin to specialize. We have to have in my view an overarching philosophy that all people regardless of their disability contribute to society and that our society has a responsibility to support families who have children who have disabilities or where an adult with the disability is needing various kinds of supports. Our society, our society really needs to be looking at how to ensure that the independent living model of enabling disabled people to be in charge of our lives with supports if we need those supports but we’re ultimately in charge and needing certain kinds of supports should not be seen as meaning that you are a less valuable person. I think that’s really important.

Most people, it’s a whole other interview but, the issue of what does it mean to have a human rights model, a social model at the same time to be able to ensure that people get what they need. Whether it’s durable medical equipment, personal assistant services, accommodations and hours at work, on and on. So, we need to be really be investing in children with disabilities to ensure that they’re getting the right educations they need.

The world of work is changing and you know this very well. And one of my big concerns is that the disability community is trying to catch up to the world of work today.

Debra: Right.

Judy: But the world of work today is not going to be the world of work tomorrow and no one is really sure of what’s the world of work is going to be tomorrow. And I think, we need to be spending a lot more time demanding that we are at the tables with the world of work tomorrow which is not very far down the road. Really it’s able to both look at the kinds of qualifications people are going to need in the various jobs that will be available.

We need to look at the kinds of training that people are not getting and need to get. We need to be demanding that disabled individuals are getting the same kinds of opportunities as non-disabled people and that also means that we as adults whether or not we have a disability or a family with a disability which almost everybody has one or the other. We need to be really be focusing on what do we need to be concerned about as the world of work is changing. I mean, I’ve always been struck by how individuals with intellectual disabilities are in so many cases still not getting training in how to use technology.

Debra: Right.

Judy: And the world whether or not it’s on the job or in our lives, technology is today and tomorrow and it’s another whole area of discussion but I think that’s very important. We need to be looking more at programs that are focusing on people who have intellectual disabilities who are going to universities, attending classes on university campuses. We need to make this no longer an exception to the rule but we need to look at what are some of the best models out there. And as a society, we need to be demanding that all people are getting access to higher education at the level that they’re capable of learning.

And I think one issue that’s really important is that if you look at education as something that all people can benefit from and if we recognize that all people do not learn the same way whether they have a disability or not, it really gets back to how we’re training our teachers. Whether they’re early child or primary, secondary, higher education people, we need to really look at what are the best practices out there that we need to be pushing through. And I feel like in the United States,

you know, we’re great country. We do wonderful things but for some reason, education across the country is not seem in my view the way it needs to be.

50 States and territories, every state is a different approach to education. Some doing really good jobs; some not. And even the business community which I know wants a better trained workforce is not able to have the impact it wants in the field of education. And in the area of education for disabled children and young adult and adults, yes, more people are graduating, yes more people are going to higher education but the dropout rates are still higher than for others. So, to me, life is better education.

Debra: I agree. I agree.

Judy: And respect for… I mean, the story that you tell about your daughter linking into the story that I tell about individuals. You know, we used to be institutionalized or now in the community and how some people are recognizing that what we thought about this particular group of people who have Down syndrome is really wrong and it’s true across the board. So, I mean, ultimately… I’m Jewish and I’m involved in the Jewish community and I think through the Ruderman foundation as an example you know, Jay and the foundation merely have been helping to advance the discussion of inclusion of disabled people in our synagogues as I think is the catholic church and the others. And you know, we’re…

I guess maybe kind of concluding statement, I’m tired of talking about accessibility. You know, I speak at universities and universities have been required since 1973 to make their college campuses accessible and they have non-discriminatory practices to admit and support students with disabilities on campus as well as faculty and staff. All too many of our universities today are still not doing what needs to happen and they talk about the ADA.

You know, we have this since 1990, that’s wrong. And at a speech that I gave recently where someone got up at a prestigious university and said since the ADA in 1990 bla bla bla and I got up and said, since 504 in 1973, you’ve been obligated to do this. We want to move away from discussions that are only dealing with accessibility

Debra: I agree.

Judy: We want to be dealing with the more substantive issues. Everyone agree that people need to wear shoes. There is no debate about whether or not you should wear shoes and different kinds of shoes when you go outside in climate weather or rocky roads or whatever. I don’t want anymore… I mean, I know it’s reality and we have to still do it but by only discussing issues of accessibility like at the university level, we’re not getting into discussing inclusion of disabilities. Studies and disability into the general curricula on our liberal arts colleges in our specialty areas.

I was talking to some people at Facebook earlier this year and one of the things that they were saying is students that are graduating from the universities in the IT area are not coming knowledgeable about accessibility. Likewise architects getting out of school are not being trained on what the standards are for accessibility. So, if we are producing people who are not knowledgeable either on a personal level because they have a disability and then understand the standards and cannot contribute to changes that need to continually go on, this is… it’s a Sisyphus and I think in many ways… so, Sisyphus was pushing this rock by himself but I think what we need to be envisioning is hundreds of thousands of millions of people pushing these things quickly and it has to be on an international level.

Debra: I agree.

Judy: You know, my parents are from Germany. They were survivors and… so, I think one of the reasons why international has always been something that I’ve been interested in is because my family did not… we’re not born here in the United States. And so, when I first travelled out of the US to the Paralympics in 1972, I got this really amazing eye opening experience of not only meeting disabled people from all over the world but also looking at the types of lives people were living in rich countries versus

poor countries. And I also learned in 1972 about things like national health insurance. I learned that and continue to learn that the United States is one of very very like two or three countries in the world that doesn’t have national healthcare.

Debra: Right.

Judy: And to look at the implications. So, your point of we can learn through other people is amazingly true. I mean, I think we at the United States have a lot to teach people in the area of civil rights law like the ADA and enforcement and technical assistant because many countries do not have what we have. And even those countries that have ratified the CRPD are working on that direction. But there are so many things that we can learn from other people in other areas. And even in the civil and human rights area now because people are working on this communities are organizing.

So, I think at a disability community of at least one billion people, if we could really get a robust hundred million people really fighting for our rights and the rights of other people internationally, we could change the world in so many ways. I mean, climate change is another huge area that we have to be concerned about.

Debra: Right.

Judy: The climate change amongst other things causes more disability.

Debra: Yes.

Judy: Cause lung disease and all kinds of other disabilities that society is not appropriately addressing. So like…

Debra: Yes. But that’s… gosh. We could definitely talk and talk and talk but I totally agree with you about us only focusing on accessibility and that’s what I did when I first moved into this field for until 2011 and really 2013 and then I’m thinking, “well, I found if I did all these, more people with disabilities would become employed but actually, nothing’s happening.” And so, that’s when I started joining what you’re saying, the mainstream conversations. We have got to be in the future of work. What’s going on with the AI, the robotics, the autonomous car…

Judy: Exactly.

Debra: The… we have to be in these conversations. So Judy, thank you so much for your work. What we’re going to do is we’re going to make sure that the link to your show is included. We’re going to provide the link to…

Judy: Thank you.

Debra: You know how people can find you. The Ford foundation. I agree with you, the Ruderman foundation are rock stars. I had Jay on the show early early early on. I think we’re like at a 14, 145…

Judy: Wow.

Debra: Episodes. He was like maybe seven or something like that. I just think there’s a lot to be hopeful for but there’s a lot of work to do and we got to do it globally. So, thank you for your leadership Judy. Thank you so much…

Judy: You’re welcome.

Debra: For your leadership. I know we got lots to do but we’re very grateful for you. So, thank you and thank you to the audience. I would really encourage any of you listening please, watch her shows. Subscribe to it. Remember, all of that helps. Give positive reviews. You know, the negative reviews…

Judy: If ever you don’t like it, it’s okay. Tell me.

Debra: Right. Tell us so we can do better. But really support the work that we’re doing to try to make the world a better place because I agree with Judy, if hundreds of millions of us really get together and say, “No. we believe to be fully human means everybody gets included. Everybody gets to be really find out what your goal in life. We all win.” Yes. Thanks to the audience.

Judy: Happy New Year.

Debra: Yes. Thank you. Good way to start the New Year through what you do.

Judy: Yes.

Debra: So, thanks everyone. Thank you Judy. Bye-bye.

Judy: Bye.